Seanchan BS? *Spoilers*

[Faroresdragn]

I finished ToM last week. And something hit me as it was all sinking in.

 

While Avihenda is going through her vision about the aiel (which is the best part of the book), she talks about the seanchan building a path for their special carriages that moved on their own, made of big metal pieces too big to pry up using big nails. Took me a little while, but she was obviously talking about a railroad. A railroad across the waste. And I thought that was pretty cool, since that guy in camelyn in modern times was just on the breakthrough of steam engine tech. This would be a natural step forward in any world...

 

 

...except one with magic. And raken. Please explain to me how a steam train provides ANY useful service in a world where Traveling exists? Especially since the seanchan are the conquerors of this world, and have no qualms using channelers like cattle? Even if they had to do it one crate at a time, (or one person at a time) there's no way that train travel wouldn't add WEEKS to transporting people and goods when traveling is available. Building a railroad across the waste would be a complete waste of time and energy and resources.

 

Was it just me that thought that? I'm not really sure why I typed that all out. Guess I just needed to vent about it. Is there some benefit to having trains when you already can teleport from place to place for free? Cause if there is I don't see it.

[wotfan4472]

The One Power will be gone over time after the LB. The damane will eventually die out because the Pattern will start holding those souls back from being born again once they die. The railroad is representing that human ingenuity and advancement has begun again post the DO, whom was actively stifling ideas until the Dragon was born. The Pattern is going to encourage this gradually at the same time it actively reduces the channelling souls to balance it.

[solarz]

Even during the Age of Legends, they had sho-wings and jo-cars. Why?

 

Because they probably had 7 billion people and only a few hundred Aes Sedai (who could Travel). That's why.

 

By the time the Seanchan started building railroads, they probably had a burgeoning empire the size of continental US.

 

Just because Rand was opening Gateways for his army, doesn't mean he's going to do that for Joe Schmoe who wants to visit his sister.

[Sabio]

Yes you would basicly need Aes Sedai at the beck and call to open a gate way whereever any person wanted to go.  Maybe there are permanent gateways to major places. but you average person and cargo will still need to go by non gateway means.

[TheSociopath]

The One Power will be gone over time after the LB. The damane will eventually die out because the Pattern will start holding those souls back from being born again once they die. The railroad is representing that human ingenuity and advancement has begun again post the DO, whom was actively stifling ideas until the Dragon was born. The Pattern is going to encourage this gradually at the same time it actively reduces the channelling souls to balance it.

 

Where did you get this? Is it mentioned in an interview somewhere?

[dexterryu]

 

The One Power will be gone over time after the LB. The damane will eventually die out because the Pattern will start holding those souls back from being born again once they die. The railroad is representing that human ingenuity and advancement has begun again post the DO, whom was actively stifling ideas until the Dragon was born. The Pattern is going to encourage this gradually at the same time it actively reduces the channelling souls to balance it.

 

Where did you get this? Is it mentioned in an interview somewhere?

 

I would say it's more inferred than anything. Previous ages (or future) the One Power was forgotten. Supposedly the age prior to the AoL it was re-discovered. Inferring this... if "our time" is part of the wheel we'd be experiencing those born with the spark if the pattern was still spinning out souls with the ability to channel.

 

The other thing that would occur overtime assuming a global Seanchan rule would be that channelers would be "bred" out of existence.

 

Finally, in regards to Avi's future visions I always had a hard time accepting them because they don't account for sane male channelers. Their existance in decent numbers makes it hard for me to believe that the Seanchan would win. Their use of Damane has several disadvantages... they can't link, they only "find" those with the spark and/or capture, and they don't use Angreal. In short, I don't see how they would win.

[Sabio]

Actually it explains that, basicly all the nations and the BT went after the Seanchan one after another.  After each victory the Seanchan became stronger and stronger, simply becomes a numbers game.  The test all the women they find, chain the channerls and no one is around to train those who could learn.  The nations didn't stand up to the Seanchan together, which is why the dragons peace was so important, uniting the nations and aiel to fight together.

[Faroresdragn]

Well the male channeler thing makes sense. Remember semirage gave that male Adam to the seanchan, and they're assumed to be able to make copies of that since the seanchan have people who can replicate terangreal. So the seanchan would begin collaring male channelers, with male suldam. Someone in avihendas vision mentions that the black tower held out long after the base itself was destroyed, and after the white tower fell, assumedly because the seanchan would take a while to get used to get used to capturing male channelers.

[Finnssss22]

Well the male channeler thing makes sense. Remember semirage gave that male Adam to the seanchan, and they're assumed to be able to make copies of that since the seanchan have people who can replicate terangreal. So the seanchan would begin collaring male channelers, with male suldam. Someone in avihendas vision mentions that the black tower held out long after the base itself was destroyed, and after the white tower fell, assumedly because the seanchan would take a while to get used to get used to capturing male channelers.

 

Probably had more to do with the fact that after a while the collared male eventually reverses the link and takes control of the women.

[Sabio]

With as powerful as the Seanchan were made out to be, I don't see how anyone can stand up to the,.  I think RJ and BS made them out to be too powerful.

[dexterryu]

Actually it explains that, basicly all the nations and the BT went after the Seanchan one after another.  After each victory the Seanchan became stronger and stronger, simply becomes a numbers game.  The test all the women they find, chain the channerls and no one is around to train those who could learn.  The nations didn't stand up to the Seanchan together, which is why the dragons peace was so important, uniting the nations and aiel to fight together.

 

Yeah, I remember that I just don't think that it would happen that way. When the Aiel came over the Dragonwall the nations banded together and fought them. With gateways, traveling, and the fact that the Seanchan particpated in the LB everyone knows about them (not just relying on hearsay/pigeons, etc...). I.E... once the treaty had ended or was broken and the Seanchan attacked everyone would know about it very quickly and I don't see them all going at a known threat one at a time.

[Faroresdragn]

With as powerful as the Seanchan were made out to be, I don't see how anyone can stand up to the,. I think RJ and BS made them out to be too powerful.

The idea behind the seanchan being so powerful was that not only did they have weponized channelers. The damane were literally channelers turned into guns. The aes sedai not only couldn't attack outside of self defense, they didn't train to fight, and were shocked at the weaves many of the damane knew because they were so violent. And really nothing in rand land can stand up against weaponized channelers. They mentioned that about every 2 pages during the last battle, and that would be why the black tower would have outlasted the white, because they are trained to fight and actually able to attack.

 

In addition to that, seanchan is literally a CONTINENT sized army. They started as luthair hawkwings army, who systematically conquered and assimilated the entire continent of seanchan into their militiant culture. They're all super disciplined, based around rank, etc. their entire culture has been entered on power and conquest for the last 1000 years. And they have one unified government for their entire continent. That makes for not only a very well trained army, but a f*cking huge one. Add to that their weird animals like raken, and weaponized channelers, and yeah that's gonna be a pretty serious army. They know nothing better than they know war.

[dexterryu]

 

With as powerful as the Seanchan were made out to be, I don't see how anyone can stand up to the,. I think RJ and BS made them out to be too powerful.

The idea behind the seanchan being so powerful was that not only did they have weponized channelers. The damane were literally channelers turned into guns. The aes sedai not only couldn't attack outside of self defense, they didn't train to fight, and were shocked at the weaves many of the damane knew because they were so violent. And really nothing in rand land can stand up against weaponized channelers. They mentioned that about every 2 pages during the last battle, and that would be why the black tower would have outlasted the white, because they are trained to fight and actually able to attack.

 

In addition to that, seanchan is literally a CONTINENT sized army. They started as luthair hawkwings army, who systematically conquered and assimilated the entire continent of seanchan into their militiant culture. They're all super disciplined, based around rank, etc. their entire culture has been entered on power and conquest for the last 1000 years. And they have one unified government for their entire continent. That makes for not only a very well trained army, but a f*cking huge one. Add to that their weird animals like raken, and weaponized channelers, and yeah that's gonna be a pretty serious army. They know nothing better than they know war.

 

 

I'm going more by what was seen in the books. In PoD, Rand and a dozen or so male chanellers and a smallish (5000 men if I recall) force kicked the Seanchan's butts until Calandor/Madness got the best of Rand.

 

Add to that... Randland's access to linking Angreal, and other channeling groups (wise ones, kin, windfinders) who all are very concerned about the Seanchan as a threat. I just don't see the Seanchan winning. Even the nations that they took over were the easy pickings with weak governments (Amadacia being the exception). 

[solarz]

 

 

With as powerful as the Seanchan were made out to be, I don't see how anyone can stand up to the,. I think RJ and BS made them out to be too powerful.

The idea behind the seanchan being so powerful was that not only did they have weponized channelers. The damane were literally channelers turned into guns. The aes sedai not only couldn't attack outside of self defense, they didn't train to fight, and were shocked at the weaves many of the damane knew because they were so violent. And really nothing in rand land can stand up against weaponized channelers. They mentioned that about every 2 pages during the last battle, and that would be why the black tower would have outlasted the white, because they are trained to fight and actually able to attack.

 

In addition to that, seanchan is literally a CONTINENT sized army. They started as luthair hawkwings army, who systematically conquered and assimilated the entire continent of seanchan into their militiant culture. They're all super disciplined, based around rank, etc. their entire culture has been entered on power and conquest for the last 1000 years. And they have one unified government for their entire continent. That makes for not only a very well trained army, but a f*cking huge one. Add to that their weird animals like raken, and weaponized channelers, and yeah that's gonna be a pretty serious army. They know nothing better than they know war.

 

 

I'm going more by what was seen in the books. In PoD, Rand and a dozen or so male chanellers and a smallish (5000 men if I recall) force kicked the Seanchan's butts until Calandor/Madness got the best of Rand.

 

Add to that... Randland's access to linking Angreal, and other channeling groups (wise ones, kin, windfinders) who all are very concerned about the Seanchan as a threat. I just don't see the Seanchan winning. Even the nations that they took over were the easy pickings with weak governments (Amadacia being the exception). 

 

 

That's because the Asha'man had access to Gateways during that battle, and the Seanchan had no idea Traveling was even possible.

 

However, wars cannot be won with just one or two battles. The strength of the Seanchan lies in their organization and adaptability. They are, aside from Perrin's much smaller army, the only combined force army in Randland. They provide their ground forces with air support, and have access to damane-artillery. They have a command structure that is flexible and an economic base that allows them to absorb a lot of losses.

 

Throughout the book, even in Aviendha and Rand's visions, we see that the Seanchan rule is far more effective than any other political organization in Randland. In the end, that is far more important than even channeling. Artur Hawkwing was able to lay siege to Tar Valon without a single channeler in his army. Despite the power they wielded, the Aes Sedai could do nothing but cower behind their walls against the might of Hawkwing's army.

 

The Seanchan, perhaps it bears reminding, are Artur Hawkwing's armies returned... with damanes and flying monsters.

[Sabio]

Just when you read about them in the LB, they are descirbed as being huge.  But you have to remember Semi stopped most of their armies from coming over, just seemes like they somehow got  huge force over by ship. Even before the LB they had at least 3 armies of over a hundred thousand men.  With as powerful as they seemed at the LB I don't see how they didn't control most of Randland.

[solarz]

Just when you read about them in the LB, they are descirbed as being huge.  But you have to remember Semi stopped most of their armies from coming over, just seemes like they somehow got  huge force over by ship. Even before the LB they had at least 3 armies of over a hundred thousand men.  With as powerful as they seemed at the LB I don't see how they didn't control most of Randland.

 

Simply put, because of Rand.

 

Rand had the Aiel, also numbering in the hundreds of thousands. I believe it's been shown that the Aiel beat the Seanchan if the latter didn't have damane.

 

Rand also had Callandor and the Asha'man.

 

Finally, Rand had Mat.

[dexterryu]

 

 

 

With as powerful as the Seanchan were made out to be, I don't see how anyone can stand up to the,. I think RJ and BS made them out to be too powerful.

The idea behind the seanchan being so powerful was that not only did they have weponized channelers. The damane were literally channelers turned into guns. The aes sedai not only couldn't attack outside of self defense, they didn't train to fight, and were shocked at the weaves many of the damane knew because they were so violent. And really nothing in rand land can stand up against weaponized channelers. They mentioned that about every 2 pages during the last battle, and that would be why the black tower would have outlasted the white, because they are trained to fight and actually able to attack.

 

In addition to that, seanchan is literally a CONTINENT sized army. They started as luthair hawkwings army, who systematically conquered and assimilated the entire continent of seanchan into their militiant culture. They're all super disciplined, based around rank, etc. their entire culture has been entered on power and conquest for the last 1000 years. And they have one unified government for their entire continent. That makes for not only a very well trained army, but a f*cking huge one. Add to that their weird animals like raken, and weaponized channelers, and yeah that's gonna be a pretty serious army. They know nothing better than they know war.

 

 

I'm going more by what was seen in the books. In PoD, Rand and a dozen or so male chanellers and a smallish (5000 men if I recall) force kicked the Seanchan's butts until Calandor/Madness got the best of Rand.

 

Add to that... Randland's access to linking Angreal, and other channeling groups (wise ones, kin, windfinders) who all are very concerned about the Seanchan as a threat. I just don't see the Seanchan winning. Even the nations that they took over were the easy pickings with weak governments (Amadacia being the exception). 

 

 

That's because the Asha'man had access to Gateways during that battle, and the Seanchan had no idea Traveling was even possible.

 

However, wars cannot be won with just one or two battles. The strength of the Seanchan lies in their organization and adaptability. They are, aside from Perrin's much smaller army, the only combined force army in Randland. They provide their ground forces with air support, and have access to damane-artillery. They have a command structure that is flexible and an economic base that allows them to absorb a lot of losses.

 

Throughout the book, even in Aviendha and Rand's visions, we see that the Seanchan rule is far more effective than any other political organization in Randland. In the end, that is far more important than even channeling. Artur Hawkwing was able to lay siege to Tar Valon without a single channeler in his army. Despite the power they wielded, the Aes Sedai could do nothing but cower behind their walls against the might of Hawkwing's army.

 

The Seanchan, perhaps it bears reminding, are Artur Hawkwing's armies returned... with damanes and flying monsters.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it would be a steam role. I just think that the channeling advantages of Randland would give them the upper hand. Linking between both women and men/women + Angreal.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that the take-over starts a couple of generations down the road from the end of AMOL. The landscape could have changed as far as how the Randland channelers interact with one another. One would think that with the DO properly locked up again that the channelers would have started to work together again... then again.. this is Randland and people don't do what you'd think would be logical.

[solarz]

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it would be a steam role. I just think that the channeling advantages of Randland would give them the upper hand. Linking between both women and men/women + Angreal.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that the take-over starts a couple of generations down the road from the end of AMOL. The landscape could have changed as far as how the Randland channelers interact with one another. One would think that with the DO properly locked up again that the channelers would have started to work together again... then again.. this is Randland and people don't do what you'd think would be logical.

 

 

I would not be so sure about Rand winning against Seanchan, if such a war actually broke out.

 

Sure, the Seanchan was defeated in their first (and IIRC only) battle, but they were surprised by Rand and his Asha'man's abilities. Even defeated, there was no indication that this diminished the Seanchan's fighting capabilities in any significant way. The Seanchan had a far superior economic and logistic base, while Rand was barely able to hold together his alliance of Aiel and Westland nations. Had it come to an all-out war, I would have put my money on the Seanchan, Dragon Reborn or not.

 

The Seanchan had their own channelers, and once they learned Traveling as well, Rand would have lost his most significant advantage.

[dexterryu]

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it would be a steam role. I just think that the channeling advantages of Randland would give them the upper hand. Linking between both women and men/women + Angreal.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that the take-over starts a couple of generations down the road from the end of AMOL. The landscape could have changed as far as how the Randland channelers interact with one another. One would think that with the DO properly locked up again that the channelers would have started to work together again... then again.. this is Randland and people don't do what you'd think would be logical.

 

 

I would not be so sure about Rand winning against Seanchan, if such a war actually broke out.

 

Sure, the Seanchan was defeated in their first (and IIRC only) battle, but they were surprised by Rand and his Asha'man's abilities. Even defeated, there was no indication that this diminished the Seanchan's fighting capabilities in any significant way. The Seanchan had a far superior economic and logistic base, while Rand was barely able to hold together his alliance of Aiel and Westland nations. Had it come to an all-out war, I would have put my money on the Seanchan, Dragon Reborn or not.

 

The Seanchan had their own channelers, and once they learned Traveling as well, Rand would have lost his most significant advantage.

 

 

Might just have to agree to disagree. Really the Seanchan never impressed me from a military standpoint (outside of numbers). They took over Tarabon, Amadecia, and Altara. All 3 of which were countries either in turmoil and with weak (if any) rule beyond their capitols. They won those mostly unopposed and with a surprise attack utilizing chanelers.

 

Looking at things from a military standpoint of Randland vs Seanchan:

 

Numbers: Hard to really say what the combined nations army + Aeil vs Seanchan would be. Advantage: Equal

 

Organization: Being 1 government, and one military structure the Seanchan have the advantage here. Advantage: Seanchan

 

Channeling strength: Randland has trained male & female chanellers. They can link, and have access to angreal, ter'angreal, sa'angreal. Advantage: Randland

 

Channeling innovation/ability: Recently rediscovered abilities such as ter'angreal making, angreal making, healing whereas Seanchan Damane are mostly only a fighting force. There is no experimentation/innovation. Advantage: Randland

 

Technology: Mat/Aludra developed cannons (dragons). Improved crossbows etc. Advantage: Randland

 

Beasts: Randland has horses, Seanchan have grolm, raken, torm and elephants. Raken are the main advantage being an air unit. Rest are rare/difficult enough to control to not be a huge advantage. Advantage: Seanchan

 

Best fighting force: The Aiel, imho are the best pure fighting group in the series and there are hundreds of thousands of Aiel fighters.

 

Conclusion: (mine at least).

 

The biggest difference in a military conflict is the availablilty and use of male channelers. They give Randland an extremely powerful weapon that is pretty much un-countered by anything the Seanchan have. Taking channeling out of the equation it becomes more interesting. That said, I think that the Aiel would be the difference at the end of the day.

 

The Seanchan's path to victory to me, would be dependent upon infighting and political maneuverings between the nations within Randland. If they picked a general and worked as a unit under that person I don't see them losing.

[Sabio]

I think the main thing about channelers is the Seanchan are trained for war, the Seanchan is described as a land always at war, usually rebeliions and such.  So they are skilled at war.  Aes Sedai have very little experience with using the power in a war.  The 3 oaths actually limits their use in a war as Mat discovered.  As I said earlier RJ made them too powerful as it didn't make since that they stopped so quickly,  Their stopping made no sense to me since over 100,000 were chasing Iraltude (however you spell his name) 100,000 were looking for mat, a huge army fought Rand small force in Illian.  The companion said the Seanchan going into Illian was Semi's doing to keep Rand occupied and so he would see them as an enemy and lessen the chance of any alliance.  So with Semi, they wouldn't of even marched into Illian.  They should of easily of had the weak divided nations near them.  Look at how quickly they took the land they had, and then sort of stopped.  Randland way of war was outdated when they encountered the Seanchan.  Ranland didn't use the power and calvary charges was the primary tactic, all which as the whitecloaks discovered don't work now.

[jack of shadows]

LOL,ITURALDE.

[solarz]

Might just have to agree to disagree. Really the Seanchan never impressed me from a military standpoint (outside of numbers). They took over Tarabon, Amadecia, and Altara. All 3 of which were countries either in turmoil and with weak (if any) rule beyond their capitols. They won those mostly unopposed and with a surprise attack utilizing chanelers.

 

Looking at things from a military standpoint of Randland vs Seanchan:

 

Numbers: Hard to really say what the combined nations army + Aeil vs Seanchan would be. Advantage: Equal

 

Organization: Being 1 government, and one military structure the Seanchan have the advantage here. Advantage: Seanchan

 

Channeling strength: Randland has trained male & female chanellers. They can link, and have access to angreal, ter'angreal, sa'angreal. Advantage: Randland

 

Channeling innovation/ability: Recently rediscovered abilities such as ter'angreal making, angreal making, healing whereas Seanchan Damane are mostly only a fighting force. There is no experimentation/innovation. Advantage: Randland

 

Technology: Mat/Aludra developed cannons (dragons). Improved crossbows etc. Advantage: Randland

 

Beasts: Randland has horses, Seanchan have grolm, raken, torm and elephants. Raken are the main advantage being an air unit. Rest are rare/difficult enough to control to not be a huge advantage. Advantage: Seanchan

 

Best fighting force: The Aiel, imho are the best pure fighting group in the series and there are hundreds of thousands of Aiel fighters.

 

Conclusion: (mine at least).

 

The biggest difference in a military conflict is the availablilty and use of male channelers. They give Randland an extremely powerful weapon that is pretty much un-countered by anything the Seanchan have. Taking channeling out of the equation it becomes more interesting. That said, I think that the Aiel would be the difference at the end of the day.

 

The Seanchan's path to victory to me, would be dependent upon infighting and political maneuverings between the nations within Randland. If they picked a general and worked as a unit under that person I don't see them losing.

 

 

I would have to disagree about the Channeling Strength. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about a showdown between the Seanchan and a hypothetically united Randland. I'm talking about Seanchan vs Rand's forces. That means most of the White Tower is not involved, and he wouldn't have access to the Tower's resources. It also means most of the Black Tower is not under his control (or worse, actively trying to kill him). This gives him only a dozen trained Aes Sedai (many of whom are Black) and a handful of loyal Asha'man. The Aiel Wise Ones have the numbers, but have never been trained to use the Power as a weapon. They are more likely to be a source of damane than any help. He also only has access to 1 sa'angreal, Callandor, unless we count the Choedan Kal, and only a few angreal, mostly held by Cadsuane.

 

In contrast, the Seanchan have lots of damane. Just how many, we don't really know, but it's enough that most of their ships (if not all) each have a damane on board, and each company-sized ground force would be accompanied by a damane. Seanchan damane are also quite powerful, as shown by Alivia. They have also been trained from the start as weapons, far, far longer than the Asha'man. The Seanchan can also readily capture and train more damane, while Rand has no way to replace his channelers.

 

I would also group "Beasts" and "Technology" together. We are essentially talking about military advancements, just as the cavalry is a military advancement. Rand has crossbows and, maybe, cannons. Keep in mind that those cannons only get used in the Last Battle, so it's arguable if they would've been ready anytime before then. In contrast, the Seanchan has an air force!

 

The Aiel are a fearsome fighting force, but the Seanchan soldiers are no slouches either. Remember how Mat led an undisciplined and inexperienced (against Aiel) Westland coalition against the Shaido? While Seanchan commanders are not on Mat's level, they are all competent commanders, and their soldiers are well disciplined and fully versed in combined-arms warfare. They performed quite well against the Shaido.

 

There's also the matter of economic strength. The Seanchan are well known for their enlightened rule (for non-channelers anyway), while pretty much every Westland nation was in shambles. This means the Seanchan can sustain losses far better than Rand's forces. The Romans lost a crapload of battles against Carthage, with entire legions annihilated by Hannibal, but they just raised more and kept on fighting. The Seanchan would be pretty much the same.

[solarz]

I think the main thing about channelers is the Seanchan are trained for war, the Seanchan is described as a land always at war, usually rebeliions and such.  So they are skilled at war.  Aes Sedai have very little experience with using the power in a war.  The 3 oaths actually limits their use in a war as Mat discovered.  As I said earlier RJ made them too powerful as it didn't make since that they stopped so quickly,  Their stopping made no sense to me since over 100,000 were chasing Iraltude (however you spell his name) 100,000 were looking for mat, a huge army fought Rand small force in Illian.  The companion said the Seanchan going into Illian was Semi's doing to keep Rand occupied and so he would see them as an enemy and lessen the chance of any alliance.  So with Semi, they wouldn't of even marched into Illian.  They should of easily of had the weak divided nations near them.  Look at how quickly they took the land they had, and then sort of stopped.  Randland way of war was outdated when they encountered the Seanchan.  Ranland didn't use the power and calvary charges was the primary tactic, all which as the whitecloaks discovered don't work now.

 

The Seanchan are powerful, but they have their limits.

 

They took over Tarabon and Altara with virtually no resistance, because those two nations were basket cases. Tarabon was ripped apart by civil war, and the Queen of Altara controlled little more than Ebou Dar. However, once taken, the Seanchan now had to devote resources into fixing those nations: feed the poor, create jobs, restructure and absorb their military, assimilate their nobility, etc. Nation fixing is no easy task!

 

The Seanchan stopped because they were busy consolidating their gains.

[dexterryu]

So in one regard, I think we're talking about two different hypothetical battles. If it was Seanchan vs Rand, then Seanchan has have an advantage. I'm talking about the combined strength of the nations 2-3 generations AFTER AMOL. I argue that the very nature of the fact that the treaty allowed the Seanchan to keep their Damane would mean that the Aes Sedai (and other channeling groups) would be watching the Seanchan like hawks because due to the threat of a life worse than slavery.

 

As far as Semi's effect on the Seanchan, you could make a similar case to Forsaken/Black Ajah manipulations on the main continent. Heck, even Artur Hawkwing was manipulated by Ishamael into his attack of the Aes Sedai. Even though Bonwhin had been antagonizing him (who know's if she was either BA or potentially being manipulated herself?) he didn't have open disdain for them until Ishy came into the picture.

 

I also disagree on Aes Sedai not being trained for battle. They all are and it's a big part of their test for the shawl. Seeing action is another story, but should the Seanchan have complete control over their won continent who would the Damane be battle hardened against themselves?

 

I don't see the WT and BT remaining completely separate in the long run either. We already saw them cross bonding each other and the benefits it could bring. I see them being strong allies.

 

As far as the books go, really the only time the Seanchan are shown as being successful in battle are via surprise attacks. Ituralde is a great example in that a well lead force (without chanellers or air support) can hold them at bay when they are unable to surprise attack with an overwhelming force.

 

At any rate, this is a fun debate :)

[solarz]

So in one regard, I think we're talking about two different hypothetical battles. If it was Seanchan vs Rand, then Seanchan has have an advantage. I'm talking about the combined strength of the nations 2-3 generations AFTER AMOL. I argue that the very nature of the fact that the treaty allowed the Seanchan to keep their Damane would mean that the Aes Sedai (and other channeling groups) would be watching the Seanchan like hawks because due to the threat of a life worse than slavery.

 

As far as Semi's effect on the Seanchan, you could make a similar case to Forsaken/Black Ajah manipulations on the main continent. Heck, even Artur Hawkwing was manipulated by Ishamael into his attack of the Aes Sedai. Even though Bonwhin had been antagonizing him (who know's if she was either BA or potentially being manipulated herself?) he didn't have open disdain for them until Ishy came into the picture.

 

I also disagree on Aes Sedai not being trained for battle. They all are and it's a big part of their test for the shawl. Seeing action is another story, but should the Seanchan have complete control over their won continent who would the Damane be battle hardened against themselves?

 

I don't see the WT and BT remaining completely separate in the long run either. We already saw them cross bonding each other and the benefits it could bring. I see them being strong allies.

 

As far as the books go, really the only time the Seanchan are shown as being successful in battle are via surprise attacks. Ituralde is a great example in that a well lead force (without chanellers or air support) can hold them at bay when they are unable to surprise attack with an overwhelming force.

 

At any rate, this is a fun debate :)

 

The problem with the AS is that they are bound by their Oaths. While this doesn't preclude them from helping, it severely limits their tactical options.

 

In Aviendha's visions, the key point was that the Aiel *started* the war. That is quite likely the reason the other Westland nations didn't want to get involved. The Aiel then manipulated Andor into joining the war, but there's no mention of any other nation joining as well. I suspect once the Seanchan conquered Andor and obtained cannons, they became too powerful for any other nation to oppose.

 

I am not so optimistic regarding the WT and the BT. Remember who their respective leaders are after the Last Battle: Cadsuane and Logain. Judging solely from their personalities, it is unlikely they would get along. The Aes Sedai would not discard their manipulative nature overnight, and the Asha'man would never stand for being manipulated like that. Perhaps when faced with an existential crisis, they would unite, but likely by then, it was already too late.

 

Another problem in comparing the Seanchan vs Rand is that the Seanchan are conquerors, not saviors. In TGH, Rand experienced alternate lives through the portal stone, and we've seen that although the Seanchan can conquer the world, they cannot fight back the Dark One's forces. If we look at Rand, we see him jumping frantically from Tear to the Aiel Waste to Cairhien, then Andor. He conquers but does very little nation building. The Dragon Reborn's purpose is to win the Last Battle, not to build an enduring empire. It is the Seanchan who are best equipped to do that, and that's why it makes sense that they would do so once the threat of Shadow has been removed.