Prologue Through to the End of Chapter 25

[Luckers]

Discuss.

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

Chapter22 p.414(TOR)

Is anybody else as cynical as me (I know a couple of you out there are worse than me) and feel Lanfear's "time distortions" talk(not just in TAR but in the real world) are an excuse to allow Brandon literary flexibility?

"Well, the timeline doesn't make sense? F'it! The pattern is unravelling!"

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

Another thing (I think it may be an error but I want others to confirm or deny it before posting in the Typo/Error thread):

 

 

Chapter 22 p.412(TOR)

Perrin says: "That was Graendal, wasn't it?", "Or was it Moghedien"

 

Does this make any sense as a guess? Assuming no Field of Merrilor offscreen discussion about who is alive and who is dead among the Forsaken, Perrin could have guessed like that. He could also have guessed Sermirhage or Mesaana. His two guesses (from a reader's POV) imply that there was a talk. If so, shouldn't he have only guessed Moghedien because everyone thinks Graendal is Bale-dead?

 

Similar question with respect to:

Chapter 23 p.428(TOR)

Aviendha's internal monologue

(...that certainly hadn't been Moghedien, and it didn't match the description of Graendal...)

 

If there had been full communication at the Field of Merrilor(or between Wise Ones and Aviendha) she should have guessed Moghedien or possibly Lanfear(because she knows Moraine made it back from finn-land, so why not Lanfear?).

 

The non-communication permutations seem more complex with Aviendha(because it could involve not talking to the Wise Ones about Graendal being killed but talking about Mesaana being brain-dead). In any case, thinking the attacker might be Graendal seems clearly odd to me.

Thoughts?

[esvath]

Reading aMoL while listening to LoTR's soundtrack makes me giddy, lol.

 

I love the scene in the end of ch. 23, where Rand, Moiraine and Nynaeve entering the DO's realm. It was simple, yet meaningful to me. Thom called Moiraine 'wife' and kissed her... Oh, so romantic!

[unlabled]

Just an aside, but whither Morgase?

 

I'm guessing she'll pop up at some point but nary a peep about her so far.  Thought it would have been good to hear from her regarding Caemlyn falling. 

[hjustinpace]

I guess since this is roughly halfway through the book, and roughly where I got to this morning before I had to leave for work, I should give a mid-book assessment.

 

There is a LOT going on and a TON of action. With just about the sole exception of chapter 2, there is very little in the way of slow, setup chapters. That's largely to be expected given much of that work was done in the first 13 books, but it pays to slow down a bit sometimes. The torrid pace sapped too much of the emotion. Considering how long I've been reading the series, how much it means to me, and how often I was moved to tears, I should be moved to tears early and often in the final volume. I may still be in the second half of the book (and will be disappointed if I'm not), but even without a bunch of early deaths, all the reunions should be more emotional. I was shocked how emotional I got reading all the leavetakings in The Shadow Rising--this should be the flip side of that. I thought things were proceeding a little too patly and getting a bit repetitive early on, but the twists in favor of the Dark Forces have been (mostly) both unexpected and well foreshadowed (something Jordan was THE master at). The characters are (mostly) acting consistently like themselves. Rand, in particular, is well written, and the series lives and dies by him (or is it dies and lives?)

[Smittyphi]

Lots of action here. I'm just wondering how Demandred and co. will be taken care of. Wouldn't it be funny if Demandred never saw Rand and he gets killed by some random channeler?

 

And where is Fain?

[spleen1015]

And where is Fain?

 

This is a really good question. Such an interesting character to be cast aside for so long.

[mbuehner]

Reminds me of Egwene asking who Rand intends to kill, 'Moridin?'. Does Egwene even know who Moridin is?

 

Battle plans continue to be idiotic- although i appreciate that every Captain has seen and had to deal with his plans going awry, thats a nice air of realism. Would be nicer if they realized they made capital strategic blunders starting and ending with dividing their forces when they have this thing called 'traveling' to work with. I think the Sharans fairly well demonstrated how to do battle in a world of traveling. And why doesnt anybody use deathgates? Sigh. Of course the single biggest mistake is not preparing the kind of counter-strike channeling force Taim is using. Haven't any of these people heard of reserves? There should be an elite mixed gender group of channelers armed with sa'angreal and useful ter'angreal prepared to jump to whereever a target of channeling opportunity arises.

 

Of course my favorite trick would be opening a waygate in the midst of a trolloc horde to the bottom of the ocean and watching it explode like an atom bomb. But i wasnt expecting to get that wish ;)

 

I do VERY much like the fact that Rand is being revealed to have been using a number of 'tricks' to gain his reputation of Super-Rand (his fat-man, the song, the saidin lie detector). Thats kinda fun, and it tell you a little bit about why LTT was such a formidable dude.

[esvath]

I don't think that a mixed circle is feasible since:

 

1) the general female channeler's attitude to Ashaman is suspicion. Only several Aes Sedai have Ashaman as Warder, or bonded to Ashaman. Only Wise Ones with Perrin have the opportunity (and willingness) to create a circle with Ashaman. None of the Kinswomen and Windfinders ever work with Ashaman.

 

2) the problem in Black Tower only resolved later.

[sdelu]

Reminds me of Egwene asking who Rand intends to kill, 'Moridin?'. Does Egwene even know who Moridin is?

 

Battle plans continue to be idiotic- although i appreciate that every Captain has seen and had to deal with his plans going awry, thats a nice air of realism. Would be nicer if they realized they made capital strategic blunders starting and ending with dividing their forces when they have this thing called 'traveling' to work with. I think the Sharans fairly well demonstrated how to do battle in a world of traveling. And why doesnt anybody use deathgates? Sigh. Of course the single biggest mistake is not preparing the kind of counter-strike channeling force Taim is using. Haven't any of these people heard of reserves? There should be an elite mixed gender group of channelers armed with sa'angreal and useful ter'angreal prepared to jump to whereever a target of channeling opportunity arises.

 

Of course my favorite trick would be opening a waygate in the midst of a trolloc horde to the bottom of the ocean and watching it explode like an atom bomb. But i wasnt expecting to get that wish ;)

 

I do VERY much like the fact that Rand is being revealed to have been using a number of 'tricks' to gain his reputation of Super-Rand (his fat-man, the song, the saidin lie detector). Thats kinda fun, and it tell you a little bit about why LTT was such a formidable dude.

 

I see what you're saying, but until Rand gained Lews Therin's memories in full, nobody on the light side (save maybe Mat) had any real experience running a large-scale war against armies that contain channelers. But yes, Rand probably should have seen that some sort of special channeling reserve forces would have been a benefit. There's only so much you can do in a limited time.

 

As for Travelling . . . well, to be fair, the Sharans are an army commanded by a general who used Travelling in a war that lasted longer than a good number of the Light's channelers have even been alive, and Demandred had full access to his AoL knowledge right off the bat. They are also a single force under one ruler, with channeling resources that seem to outstrip the Aes Sedai. Who knows how much time Demandred has spent training them? Travelling was only rediscovered and distributed to all of the Light's channelers relatively recently. The Light as it stands now simply doesn't have the same experience, even with Rand (who can only do so much).

 

Not that I disagree with you that they're not doing the best job, but it makes sense that the Shadow is more prepared for this war than the Light. We've known that they would be since the early books. And you have to keep in mind that the Darkfriends aren't helping any. Some of the tactics so far seem suspiciously bad...

[sdelu]

I don't think that a mixed circle is feasible since:

 

1) the general female channeler's attitude to Ashaman is suspicion. Only several Aes Sedai have Ashaman as Warder, or bonded to Ashaman. Only Wise Ones with Perrin have the opportunity (and willingness) to create a circle with Ashaman. None of the Kinswomen and Wndfinders ever work with Ashaman.

 

2) snippidy doo daa

Pretty certain #2 is not in the first 25 chapters... =/

[esvath]

Oops. Edited my post, sorry.

[sdelu]

esvath -- Figured that would happen anyway, so no real spoiler for me. Just glad I saw it before others got to it!

Edited it out of the quote in my post as well.

 

 

That said, I agree with you. There is still a lot of discord and dissonance in the Light's forces. Hopefully that changes soon, because the Shadow does not have the same limitation.

[mbuehner]

 

Reminds me of Egwene asking who Rand intends to kill, 'Moridin?'. Does Egwene even know who Moridin is?

 

Battle plans continue to be idiotic- although i appreciate that every Captain has seen and had to deal with his plans going awry, thats a nice air of realism. Would be nicer if they realized they made capital strategic blunders starting and ending with dividing their forces when they have this thing called 'traveling' to work with. I think the Sharans fairly well demonstrated how to do battle in a world of traveling. And why doesnt anybody use deathgates? Sigh. Of course the single biggest mistake is not preparing the kind of counter-strike channeling force Taim is using. Haven't any of these people heard of reserves? There should be an elite mixed gender group of channelers armed with sa'angreal and useful ter'angreal prepared to jump to whereever a target of channeling opportunity arises.

 

Of course my favorite trick would be opening a waygate in the midst of a trolloc horde to the bottom of the ocean and watching it explode like an atom bomb. But i wasnt expecting to get that wish ;)

 

I do VERY much like the fact that Rand is being revealed to have been using a number of 'tricks' to gain his reputation of Super-Rand (his fat-man, the song, the saidin lie detector). Thats kinda fun, and it tell you a little bit about why LTT was such a formidable dude.

 

I see what you're saying, but until Rand gained Lews Therin's memories in full, nobody on the light side (save maybe Mat) had any real experience running a large-scale war against armies that contain channelers. But yes, Rand probably should have seen that some sort of special channeling reserve forces would have been a benefit. There's only so much you can do in a limited time.

 

As for Travelling . . . well, to be fair, the Sharans are an army commanded by a general who used Travelling in a war that lasted longer than a good number of the Light's channelers have even been alive, and Demandred had full access to his AoL knowledge right off the bat. They are also a single force under one ruler, with channeling resources that seem to outstrip the Aes Sedai. Who knows how much time Demandred has spent training them? Travelling was only rediscovered and distributed to all of the Light's channelers relatively recently. The Light as it stands now simply doesn't have the same experience, even with Rand (who can only do so much).

 

Not that I disagree with you that they're not doing the best job, but it makes sense that the Shadow is more prepared for this war than the Light. We've known that they would be since the early books. And you have to keep in mind that the Darkfriends aren't helping any. Some of the tactics so far seem suspiciously bad...

 

Well- i'd buy that but we're sposed to be talking about great captains here. I mean everybody immediately saw what the dragons could be used for and implemented them immediately. I agree that some REALLY fancy waygate stuff would take time to figure out... but just common sense- like say forming a circle with angreal and opening a big ass gate to move an army instantly, thats just implausible that nobody would think of that. After the first mile of trudging through the mud every last farmer with a pitchfork would be wondering why they were walking everywhere.

 

And the reserve force is really inexplicable- isn't really even travelling related. The AS, if no-one else, had years of training and studying the trolloc wars and everybody knew there would be dreadlords and forsaken that could enter the battle and almost instantly turn the tide at any given moment. Remember how the Salidar crew had their 'we're under attack by forsaken' protocols? Even THAT would have been better than what theyve demonstrated so far.

[Suttree]

The battle plans are beyond idiotic and the numbers for the forces were not handled well. It really fits it with Brandon's "tell don't show" style. We can't just be told that the battle plan is brilliant when it isn't in anyway.

[sdelu]

The battle plans are beyond idiotic and the numbers for the forces were not handled well. It really fits it with Brandon's "tell don't show" style. We can't just be told that the battle plan is brilliant when it isn't in anyway.

 

Agreed, but might some of these sentiments be better left in the "quality discussion" thread?

 

 

 

I see what you're saying, but until Rand gained Lews Therin's memories in full, nobody on the light side (save maybe Mat) had any real experience running a large-scale war against armies that contain channelers. But yes, Rand probably should have seen that some sort of special channeling reserve forces would have been a benefit. There's only so much you can do in a limited time.

 

As for Travelling . . . well, to be fair, the Sharans are an army commanded by a general who used Travelling in a war that lasted longer than a good number of the Light's channelers have even been alive, and Demandred had full access to his AoL knowledge right off the bat. They are also a single force under one ruler, with channeling resources that seem to outstrip the Aes Sedai. Who knows how much time Demandred has spent training them? Travelling was only rediscovered and distributed to all of the Light's channelers relatively recently. The Light as it stands now simply doesn't have the same experience, even with Rand (who can only do so much).

 

Not that I disagree with you that they're not doing the best job, but it makes sense that the Shadow is more prepared for this war than the Light. We've known that they would be since the early books. And you have to keep in mind that the Darkfriends aren't helping any. Some of the tactics so far seem suspiciously bad...

 

Well- i'd buy that but we're sposed to be talking about great captains here. I mean everybody immediately saw what the dragons could be used for and implemented them immediately. I agree that some REALLY fancy waygate stuff would take time to figure out... but just common sense- like say forming a circle with angreal and opening a big ass gate to move an army instantly, thats just implausible that nobody would think of that. After the first mile of trudging through the mud every last farmer with a pitchfork would be wondering why they were walking everywhere.

 

And the reserve force is really inexplicable- isn't really even travelling related. The AS, if no-one else, had years of training and studying the trolloc wars and everybody knew there would be dreadlords and forsaken that could enter the battle and almost instantly turn the tide at any given moment. Remember how the Salidar crew had their 'we're under attack by forsaken' protocols? Even THAT would have been better than what theyve demonstrated so far.

 

Fair enough. Yes, they should be doing better, and probably should have seen to those two things straight away. But allow me a Devil's Advocate moment: the Aes Sedai have shown time and again that they are mostly big fat phonies. The majority of them have spent the entire series doing one of three things: (1) losing arguments to Egwene, (2) vomiting/fainting, (3)squabbling. You can probably add being captured, sniffing, and baring their breasts to that list as well. They don't have the leadership experience they claim. They don't have the wartime expertise that's supposed to help them win the War of Shadow. They are not what they are supposed to be, save for a select few. We've been shown that plenty of times.

 

As such, yes, it's frustrating that they're failing. It's easy for us to look at it and say "they should be doing better!" But I think there is a lot of precedent showing the opposite as well.

[mbuehner]

Some of this might be easier to swallow if Bashere hadn't demonstrated how to take 10,000 cavalry and a bunch of infantry though waygates in a matter of minutes about 7 books ago when they invaded Illian.

[Suttree]

Agreed, but might some of these sentiments be better left in the "quality discussion" thread?

 

The way it works is comments like that are totally fair game as one offs anywhere. If the discussion continues it needs to go to quality.

[sdelu]

Some of this might be easier to swallow if Bashere hadn't demonstrated how to take 10,000 cavalry and a bunch of infantry though waygates in a matter of minutes about 7 books ago when they invaded Illian.

Yeah, that's a bit of a sticking point. But one could argue that Bashere's force was much, much smaller and more mobile than the Army(ies) of Light, with a fitting number of channelers who had the strength to make waygates of the proper size. Currently, the Light dooesn't have the resources to move hundreds of thousands of people around AND keep their channelers in fighting strength, especially over a war some expect might last years. One other distinct advantage the Shadow channelers have is that they do not have to kill what appears to be hundreds of thousands of trollocs on a daily basis.

 

 

 

Agreed, but might some of these sentiments be better left in the "quality discussion" thread?

The way it works is comments like that are totally fair game as one offs anywhere. If the discussion continues it needs to go to quality.

Seems odd to me, but as long as it does the job I guess.

[mbuehner]

 

Some of this might be easier to swallow if Bashere hadn't demonstrated how to take 10,000 cavalry and a bunch of infantry though waygates in a matter of minutes about 7 books ago when they invaded Illian.

Yeah, that's a bit of a sticking point. But one could argue that Bashere's force was much, much smaller and more mobile than the Army(ies) of Light, with a fitting number of channelers who had the strength to make waygates of the proper size. Currently, the Light dooesn't have the resources to move hundreds of thousands of people around AND keep their channelers in fighting strength, especially over a war some expect might last years. One other distinct advantage the Shadow channelers have is that they do not have to kill what appears to be hundreds of thousands of trollocs on a daily basis.

 

Fair point- but you've got literally hundreds of channelers standing around completely idle for several critical days. In the meantime Lan is being forced back with virtually no channeling support, Bashere is doing god knows what luring trollocs all over andor and cairhein for dubious reasons, Bryne is playing defense in a fixed location when god knows how many trollocs are pouring south around his flank and into the heart of the westlands.

 

Mind you- The Plan was to destroy the shadowspawn army in Andor quickly and lockdown that waygate to close that front permanently. Which had some wisdom- it would allow them to rejoin their forces and choke the shadow forced off further north to starve. Now how the execution turned into fighting a running battle across half the continent i dont entirely get. Was the world better off with a Caemlyn full of trollocs and an observation force? Or a westlands full of trollocs with half the army of the light trudging around. And lets not forget that while arguable the channelers are kinda being husbanded (except that instead of exerting a coordinated effort early and decisively to destroy the Andor force, they are now dripping it away steadily day by day in the battle of attrition they should be trying like hell to avoid), the actual soldiers are being marched and fought to death. There is no factor of 'decisiveness' that is always foremost in real great captains minds.

[sdelu]

 

Yeah, that's a bit of a sticking point. But one could argue that Bashere's force was much, much smaller and more mobile than the Army(ies) of Light, with a fitting number of channelers who had the strength to make waygates of the proper size. Currently, the Light dooesn't have the resources to move hundreds of thousands of people around AND keep their channelers in fighting strength, especially over a war some expect might last years. One other distinct advantage the Shadow channelers have is that they do not have to kill what appears to be hundreds of thousands of trollocs on a daily basis.

 

Fair point- but you've got literally hundreds of channelers standing around completely idle for several critical days. In the meantime Lan is being forced back with virtually no channeling support, Bashere is doing god knows what luring trollocs all over andor and cairhein for dubious reasons, Bryne is playing defense in a fixed location when god knows how many trollocs are pouring south around his flank and into the heart of the westlands.

 

Mind you- The Plan was to destroy the shadowspawn army in Andor quickly and lockdown that waygate to close that front permanently. Which had some wisdom- it would allow them to rejoin their forces and choke the shadow forced off further north to starve. Now how the execution turned into fighting a running battle across half the continent i dont entirely get. Was the world better off with a Caemlyn full of trollocs and an observation force? Or a westlands full of trollocs with half the army of the light trudging around. And lets not forget that while arguable the channelers are kinda being husbanded (except that instead of exerting a coordinated effort early and decisively to destroy the Andor force, they are now dripping it away steadily day by day in the battle of attrition they should be trying like hell to avoid), the actual soldiers are being marched and fought to death. There is no factor of 'decisiveness' that is always foremost in real great captains minds.

 

I wonder if the "Great Captains" are being set up to fail so that Mat can take over and, hum, out-Great Captain them all.

 

Bryne's mistake was costly but it wasn't as bad as what's going on in Andor. That might be the ruination of everything. I wonder now if the straws people were picking for the Bashere Darkfriend theory really weren't as thin as I thought. That'd be a shame, because he's awesome.

 

I really hope we don't have to lump Agelmar in there as well. They are doing a whole lot better than the other two armies, so maybe he really is just tired.

 

Really, though, there's no good reason -- aside from stupidity perhaps, which isn't "good" -- that they didn't just blow the hell out of Caemlyn. Make one big push with a large portion of channelers and the dragons to destroy the waygate, then set a smaller army to take out the remaining trollocs.

 

Oh well!

[esvath]

Fair point- but you've got literally hundreds of channelers standing around completely idle for several critical days. In the meantime Lan is being forced back with virtually no channeling support, Bashere is doing god knows what luring trollocs all over andor and cairhein for dubious reasons, Bryne is playing defense in a fixed location when god knows how many trollocs are pouring south around his flank and into the heart of the westlands.

 

The channelers were tasked with supply chains management, which is very much important in a protacted warfare.

 

And, keep on reading ;)

[mbuehner]

 

Fair point- but you've got literally hundreds of channelers standing around completely idle for several critical days. In the meantime Lan is being forced back with virtually no channeling support, Bashere is doing god knows what luring trollocs all over andor and cairhein for dubious reasons, Bryne is playing defense in a fixed location when god knows how many trollocs are pouring south around his flank and into the heart of the westlands.

The channelers were tasked with supply chains management, which is very much important in a protacted warfare.

 

And, keep on reading ;)

:) will do. Of course! lol. But the point is you wouldnt need a protracted war on a continent wide front if you power bomb Caemlyn early and consolidate your forces, simplifying your logistics. The war is protracted because they are making it that way. And even given many of your channelers are certainly being used for logistics and healing, there still must have been hundreds standing idle (they said as much about the AS for sure). A fraction of them  could have settled Caemlyn in an afternoon and had days to recover, and instead now they are running ragged keeping Bashere in business.

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if the "Great Captains" are being set up to fail so that Mat can take over and, hum, out-Great Captain them all.

 

Bryne's mistake was costly but it wasn't as bad as what's going on in Andor. That might be the ruination of everything. I wonder now if the straws people were picking for the Bashere Darkfriend theory really weren't as thin as I thought. That'd be a shame, because he's awesome.

 Totally thinking this! Bashere being a Dark friend is really the only good explanation I can think of for all this.

[ksbsnowowl]

I'm thinking that Graendal's new persona is messing with the great captains through their dreams. Yes, I'm taking Lanfear's word that Graendal was actually touching Bashere's dream star. I think the battle plans will be shown to suck precisely because the Shadow is causing them to suck.