Mat's Memories

[LilleHime]

Okay, so I usually don't enter forum discussions since there's about as many opinions as there are people, and I prefer to wait until the fact get out. I have to face though that writers doesn't necessarily reveal everything; even when a book is finished. So here I am which leads me to my question/crazy theory.

 

Is there a possibility that the memories the Eelfin gave Mat is actually memories from past lives akin to the type Rand had?

 

I know there are counter points. For one, I cannot recall if he actually has memories from two people from the same battle. Then there is the whole question of how the pattern work. I seem to recall Birgitte telling Elayne that some people are tied to the pattern, bount in a way that prevents them from dying and instead await their rebirth in Tel'aran'rhiod. However it also seem implied that everyone turns with the wheel, that when a person dies they will eventually be reborn to a new life though they will have no recognition of the previous. This could either mean that I'm mistaken about the second or there as a distindt difference to the rebirth of those held by the wheel. Since it has never been mentioned which heroes are tied to the pattern, and being as strong ta'veren as they are, it could be a possibility that both Mat and Perrin have been spun by the wheel before. Should they be tied to the pattern in such a way, it seems the heroes of legend will not remember their past lives until the current is finished. Mat's demand from the Eelfin could have evaded this, as well as Elayne bonding Birgitte directly from Tel'aran'rhiod seems to have done.

 

Somehow it seems more logical to me, that the Eelfin was able to fill the gaps in Mat's memory with memories from previous lives. It is also a possibility that they've simply filled them with memories from past people who's been unlucky enough to visit them and thus have them feed on their memories. However it's seems a stretch that so many great battle leaders shouls have visited the creatures. Further more the prophecies and him blowing the Horn of Valere could be taken as relative signs that Mat is indeed one of the old heroes. Who's better to sound the horn than one of the heroes reincarnated?

 

I know thas has been a whole lot of 'if' and 'may and 'but', but I it was a speculation I needed to voice, and unfortunatly not many of my friends take to reading. Hopefully you will be kind, it is probably one of my first time voicing anything like this in a forum ^^'

[BKVMC]

Well if someone in his past life went into finn land yes, they could only give him memorys of people they met in their world.

[LilleHime]

Well if someone in his past life went into finn land yes, they could only give him memorys of people they met in their world.

 

Actually, as far as I've been able to figure out nothing is required for the Finn to fulfill their side of the bargain. They doesn't seem to be limited by the rules applying to the human visitors. It should be a possibility that they are able to connect Mat's memories if he is indeed one of those who are constantly tied to it. If that is the case then he never really dies and his thread is actually just a very, very long one though the largest part of it remains hidden to his current self. If Rand and Birgitte and the other heroes can form that king of link, however flawed it may be at times, then it should be possible for the Eelfin to do the same for them. At least that's how I understand it. The memories and sensations they otherwise access sounds more like food sources and not bits they steal to place how they wish?

[Majsju]

It is not just a possibility that the memories comes from random people who visited the finns during a 1000-year span, it is a fact, confirmed by RJ. It is also not a stretch that most memories seem to come from military leaders, it takes a cetain kind of personality to not only willingly pay a visit to the finns, but also being able to get out of there in one piece.

[rand4747]

his memorys are only of a certain time period of the third age and there are alot of different people suplying those memorys, there is none from any other age. I wouldn't think someone would have so many lives in a short time :P So it must have instead been memorys the fins had access to.

[Finnssss22]

Yeah, as was mentioned, RJ confirmed that Mat's memories are from other men and not from his own lives.

Although, RJ did make a mistake in that particular Q&A or he took the context of the question to only reference what the Finn's gave him.

Either way, not all his memories were given to him by the Finn's, nor was his ability to speak the OT fluently.

 

Someone asked if any of his memories overlapped and the answer to that is really close.

tSR chptr 37

[rageofwar1978]

mats memories dont overlap but there are loose hints that suggest that they come really darn close. the trolloc wars seem to be almost a solid collection but there were if iirc a few hints to years bordering the end of the breaking.

[Skeeve the Great]

mats memories dont overlap but there are loose hints that suggest that they come really darn close. the trolloc wars seem to be almost a solid collection but there were if iirc a few hints to years bordering the end of the breaking.

 

IIRC, Mat remembers the same battles fighting on both sides.

[Arkane101]

mats memories dont overlap but there are loose hints that suggest that they come really darn close. the trolloc wars seem to be almost a solid collection but there were if iirc a few hints to years bordering the end of the breaking.

 

IIRC, Mat remembers the same battles fighting on both sides.

 

He also remembers a certain battle that happened in Manetheren from more then one POV on the one side.

[RyanL24]

I just read a part and thought about all of this...

 

Tuon asks him if he remembers the face of Hawkwing, she doesn't know why she asked, it must have been his Ta'vereness. He remembers seeing Hawkwings face in several men's memories. That tells me that his memories overlap, because even if he was born again the minute he died, he would only have met Hawkwing a couple times...

 

 

I'm listening to audio, so going back and finding the part would be nearly impossible. But I'm near the beginning of CoT, I think it was earlier in this book.

[capuga]

I just read a part and thought about all of this...

 

Tuon asks him if he remembers the face of Hawkwing, she doesn't know why she asked, it must have been his Ta'vereness[/i]. He remembers seeing Hawkwings face in several men's memories. That tells me that his memories overlap, because even if he was born again the minute he died, he would only have met Hawkwing a couple times...

 

 

I'm listening to audio, so going back and finding the part would be nearly impossible. But I'm near the beginning of CoT, I think it was earlier in this book.

 

Tuon asks because that was part of the Foretelling the damane gave her about the man that she would marry. That he would remember Hawkwing's face. She explains the Foretelling when she completes the marriage ceremony in KoD.

[RyanL24]

/\ Do you remember him thinking about Hawkwings face in several men's memories though?

 

 

 

A funny thing about your sig quote. I was reading along and got to that part. I thought, "Hey, it's almost to that guys sig quote! Here it comes... wait for it... there it is!!"

 

It's a good part.

[capuga]

/\ Do you remember him thinking about Hawkwings face in several men's memories though?

 

 

 

A funny thing about your sig quote. I was reading along and got to that part. I thought, "Hey, it's almost to that guys sig quote! Here it comes... wait for it... there it is!!"

 

It's a good part.

 

Yeah, he definitely remembers seeing Hawkwing in several men's memories.

 

I've always liked that passage in WH. Shows how dangerous Rand has become even without the power.

[LilleHime]

Thank you so much for helping me with this. It was only a stray thought that I assumed someone would know more about than me ^^ I've only read wot for a couple of months and is almost finished, so I have things in context and such, but reading so rabidly and especially so late in the series means I've missed a lot of the debates and answers from the author(s). I agree that it seems they are not his own memories, though part of the talents provided through them, such as speaking the old tounge and commanding armies, seems to be somewhat in Mat's blood already. Perhaps some of the memories are his own, though I have to assume for now that it's one of those questions I'll never get an answer to ^^

[Finnssss22]

Thank you so much for helping me with this. It was only a stray thought that I assumed someone would know more about than me ^^ I've only read wot for a couple of months and is almost finished, so I have things in context and such, but reading so rabidly and especially so late in the series means I've missed a lot of the debates and answers from the author(s). I agree that it seems they are not his own memories, though part of the talents provided through them, such as speaking the old tounge and commanding armies, seems to be somewhat in Mat's blood already. Perhaps some of the memories are his own, though I have to assume for now that it's one of those questions I'll never get an answer to ^^

 

 

The only memory we know for sure that was not given to him by the Finn's, is that of being Aemon, commanding the forces of Manetheren in their last stand.

Which of course actually has greater ramifications than anything the Finn's gave him and produces whole new arguments

[Suttree]

Thank you so much for helping me with this. It was only a stray thought that I assumed someone would know more about than me ^^ I've only read wot for a couple of months and is almost finished, so I have things in context and such, but reading so rabidly and especially so late in the series means I've missed a lot of the debates and answers from the author(s). I agree that it seems they are not his own memories, though part of the talents provided through them, such as speaking the old tounge and commanding armies, seems to be somewhat in Mat's blood already. Perhaps some of the memories are his own, though I have to assume for now that it's one of those questions I'll never get an answer to ^^

 

 

The only memory we know for sure that was not given to him by the Finn's, is that of being Aemon, commanding the forces of Manetheren in their last stand.

Which of course actually has greater ramifications than anything the Finn's gave him and produces whole new arguments

 

I know this has been discussed but do we know it was Aemon memory? "Forward the Heart Guard" could be a high ranking officer ordering troops forward or even just a battle cry, it isn't really proof he was Aemon.

[Finnssss22]

I know this has been discussed but do we know it was Aemon memory? "Forward the Heart Guard" could be a high ranking officer ordering troops forward or even just a battle cry, it isn't really proof he was Aemon.

 

100% proof...of course not but who else could it be?

 

-We know that Aemon made it back to Manetheren just in time before it was completely surrounded to hold them before the Tarendrelle river.

-We know that Aemon was promised aid if they could hold for but 3 days. They held for 10 and on the 10th day they had to retreat across the River and burned the bridges behind them. Mat's memory is clearly right after this point stating the river held his flank to the left and the bog to the right.

-We know that Aemon and the forces of Manetheren fought their last stand at Aemon's field (Emond's Field).

-We know that whoevers eye's it was that Mat was looking through, was not just in charge of the Heart Guard but the entire army (he commanded the Archers and the Footmen in that passage) and the Red Eagle was carried by his personal bannerman.

-"They must win here or die". According to everything else we know of what happened, they are surrounded with their backs to the city at this point. They are all that is left to stop them from getting to the city.

-There was no more fighting after Aemon dies.

 

There really is just no other conclusion to make here, it's Aemon 99.99%.

[Suttree]

I know this has been discussed but do we know it was Aemon memory? "Forward the Heart Guard" could be a high ranking officer ordering troops forward or even just a battle cry, it isn't really proof he was Aemon.

 

100% proof...of course not but who else could it be?

 

-We know that Aemon made it back to Manetheren just in time before it was completely surrounded to hold them before the Tarendrelle river.

-We know that Aemon was promised aid if they could hold for but 3 days. They held for 10 and on the 10th day they had to retreat across the River and burned the bridges behind them. Mat's memory is clearly right after this point stating the river held his flank to the left and the bog to the right.

-We know that Aemon and the forces of Manetheren fought their last stand at Aemon's field (Emond's Field).

-We know that whoevers eye's it was that Mat was looking through, was not just in charge of the Heart Guard but the entire army (he commanded the Archers and the Footmen in that passage) and the Red Eagle was carried by his personal bannerman.

-"They must win here or die". According to everything else we know of what happened, they are surrounded with their backs to the city at this point. They are all that is left to stop them from getting to the city.

-There was no more fighting after Aemon dies.

 

There really is just no other conclusion to make here, it's Aemon 99.99%.

 

Fair enough, sounds pretty good to me...