Caemlyn battle

[FarShainMael]

Many WoT readers will have heard about the Battle of Camlann in which the legendary King Arthur was mortally wounded by his nephew and illegitimate son by his half-sister Morgause, Mordred.

 

With the numerous Arthurian parallels in WoT, there is an obvious connection with Caemlyn, especially with a Trolloc incursion apparently in progress.

 

However, this connection is unlikely to be a carbon copy. RJ didn't build his story out of whole chunks of legend; he took elements of various cultural legends from many countries and combined them to produce new characters and situations. Thus, Rand has elements of Tyr, Arthur, and general saviour-figures; Mat is a blend of Odin, Loki, and others; Perrin seems drawn from Perun, Thor, and Hephaistos.

 

Rand al'Thor has strong parallels with Arthur. He took the Sword (Callandor) from the Stone of Tear; his mother's name was Tigraine, comparing with Arthur's mother Ygraine; he was not brought up by his natural 'royal' parents, but in a quiet village at the edge of Andor; and so on.

 

But Rand is not a straight copy of Arthur.

 

Let's look at the Battle of Camlann. This was a fight for the succession to the British crown, with Mordred the traitor seeking to usurp his father's throne, and where Arthur received his mortal wound.

 

We have already seen Caemlyn's own battle for the Succession, involving not Rand, but Elayne.

 

Further, Rand does not as yet have any children apart from Elayne's unborn babies, and certainly not with her mother Morgase. So he is in no danger of being killed by his own offspring.

 

He has already received two wounds which may yet prove mortal; one at Falme from Ba'alzamon, and one from Fain at Toram Riatin's camp (ACoS36).

 

So far, so obvious.

 

However, there is one other factor, in which Rand does certainly does not compare with Arthur. Arthur was a warlord, a 'duke of battles'. According to the legends, he fought and won no fewer than twelve battles against the Saxons and other foes. Rand has said that he is not a weapon, that he will not be involved in the fighting; he will organise them, and then leave them.

 

There is someone out there who is a much better fit, at least for Arthur-Warlord. A man who leads a strong and near-invincible fighting force, which is on hand at Caemlyn; who, like Arthur, is arguably the greatest general his country has ever known; and who has already been described as a 'son of battles'.

 

And he has a (foster-) son. Who is out for revenge on the men who killed his father.

 

So: It would not surprise me in the least to see this happening..

 

Olver is persuaded that the man who killed his father was actually Mat - the man he has looked up to and respected for so long.

 

As the battle around the Waygate on the edge of Caemlyn rages, he goes looking for Mat, and seriously, even mortally, wounds him. Mat kills Olver.

 

But then what happens...?

 

Somehow (fill in details here) Tuon sees the dying Mat, forgets herself, channels, and Heals him, possibly bonding him to do so. Seanchan society rocked to its foundations.

 

Now read on..

[Muad Cheade]

Many WoT readers will have heard about the And he has a (foster-) son. Who is out for revenge on the men who killed his father.

 

So: It would not surprise me in the least to see this happening..

 

Olver is persuaded that the man who killed his father was actually Mat - the man he has looked up to and respected for so long.

Olver knows that Shaido killed his father. Most likely well before Mat even entered Cairhien from the Waste.

 

As the battle around the Waygate on the edge of Caemlyn rages, he goes looking for Mat, and seriously, even mortally, wounds him. Mat kills Olver.

Mat may not even make it to the battle.

 

Somehow (fill in details here) Tuon sees the dying Mat, forgets herself, channels, and Heals him, possibly bonding him to do so. Seanchan society rocked to its foundations.

Tuon will either still be in the Altaran Palace or leading the attack on Tar Valon.

[FarShainMael]

Many WoT readers will have heard about the And he has a (foster-) son. Who is out for revenge on the men who killed his father.

 

So: It would not surprise me in the least to see this happening..

 

Olver is persuaded that the man who killed his father was actually Mat - the man he has looked up to and respected for so long.

 

Olver knows that Shaido killed his father. Most likely well before Mat even entered Cairhien from the Waste.

 

All we've heard from Olver about this (LoC5) is that the Aiel killed his papa. We don't know if he saw it happen. There's some wiggle room here.

 

As the battle around the Waygate on the edge of Caemlyn rages, he goes looking for Mat, and seriously, even mortally, wounds him. Mat kills Olver.

Mat may not even make it to the battle.

 

He's some way away atm, true, but again there are several possibilities.

 

Somehow (fill in details here) Tuon sees the dying Mat, forgets herself, channels, and Heals him, possibly bonding him to do so. Seanchan society rocked to its foundations.

Tuon will either still be in the Altaran Palace or leading the attack on Tar Valon.

 

I can't see the Empress (mslf) actually lowering herself to be present at a battle! Again there are a number of possibilities; though I agree this is most speculative.

[Elysium]

I loved the theory up until you started drawing Mat-Athur parallels. I think you are stretching things there. Also, I think you may have overlooked Slayer. He IS related to Rand on the Morgase side of the family, and TAR does seem to be likely as having a significant role in AMoL. One scenario that seems possible (not sure how likely though) is that Rand dies in the real world, gets revived via TAR somehow, at which point he does whatever he needs to do to beat the DO only to have Slayer mortally wound him...this precipitates the body-swap with Moridin.

 

I don't like the idea of slayer wounding Rand (he seems to be Perrin's enemy), but if Jordan wanted to keep with the Arthurian parallel, a scenario like this would work.

[Eichhörnchen]

Many WoT readers will have heard about the Battle of Camlann in which the legendary King Arthur was mortally wounded by his nephew and illegitimate son by his half-sister Morgause, Mordred.

 

With the numerous Arthurian parallels in WoT, there is an obvious connection with Caemlyn, especially with a Trolloc incursion apparently in progress.

 

However, this connection is unlikely to be a carbon copy. RJ didn't build his story out of whole chunks of legend; he took elements of various cultural legends from many countries and combined them to produce new characters and situations. Thus, Rand has elements of Tyr, Arthur, and general saviour-figures; Mat is a blend of Odin, Loki, and others; Perrin seems drawn from Perun, Thor, and Hephaistos.

 

Rand al'Thor has strong parallels with Arthur. He took the Sword (Callandor) from the Stone of Tear; his mother's name was Tigraine, comparing with Arthur's mother Ygraine; he was not brought up by his natural 'royal' parents, but in a quiet village at the edge of Andor; and so on.

 

But Rand is not a straight copy of Arthur.

 

Let's look at the Battle of Camlann. This was a fight for the succession to the British crown, with Mordred the traitor seeking to usurp his father's throne, and where Arthur received his mortal wound.

 

We have already seen Caemlyn's own battle for the Succession, involving not Rand, but Elayne.

 

Further, Rand does not as yet have any children apart from Elayne's unborn babies, and certainly not with her mother Morgase. So he is in no danger of being killed by his own offspring.

 

He has already received two wounds which may yet prove mortal; one at Falme from Ba'alzamon, and one from Fain at Toram Riatin's camp (ACoS36).

 

So far, so obvious.

 

However, there is one other factor, in which Rand does certainly does not compare with Arthur. Arthur was a warlord, a 'duke of battles'. According to the legends, he fought and won no fewer than twelve battles against the Saxons and other foes. Rand has said that he is not a weapon, that he will not be involved in the fighting; he will organise them, and then leave them.

 

There is someone out there who is a much better fit, at least for Arthur-Warlord. A man who leads a strong and near-invincible fighting force, which is on hand at Caemlyn; who, like Arthur, is arguably the greatest general his country has ever known; and who has already been described as a 'son of battles'.

 

And he has a (foster-) son. Who is out for revenge on the men who killed his father.

 

So: It would not surprise me in the least to see this happening..

 

Olver is persuaded that the man who killed his father was actually Mat - the man he has looked up to and respected for so long.

 

As the battle around the Waygate on the edge of Caemlyn rages, he goes looking for Mat, and seriously, even mortally, wounds him. Mat kills Olver.

 

But then what happens...?

 

Somehow (fill in details here) Tuon sees the dying Mat, forgets herself, channels, and Heals him, possibly bonding him to do so. Seanchan society rocked to its foundations.

 

Now read on..

 

 

 

 

I fail to see your point with Mordred though, isn't his role in literature very conflicted? So how can one accurately claim to have taken a character than in himself is multiple characters? There are as many works which show Mordred as a sympathetic figure as there are those who vilify him. Depending on the annal he is either a protagonist or antagonist, which is rare for literary figures. The first editions of the legend always show Mordred in a Greco-tragic hero slant and blame much of the events on Arthurs blindness, arrogance and foolishness in not being able to see the potential greatness in his son, which later leads to the downfall. Also noting that the common people loved Mordred more than Arthur. Then later into the late Middle Ages to Renaissance Mordreds figure grew darker and probably reached it's apex at the time of Dante Alighieri. Then during the Victorian Age the image of the tragic hero Mordred started winning favor again. Today in modernity there is no clear Mordred and he is written as both protagonist/antagonist or a complex combination of both in books set in the Arthurian legend or era.

 

In Historia Brittonum it is stated that Mordred and Arthur were buried side by side father and son brought together at last through death. Furthermore it's extrapolated that Mordred was fully in his rights to seize the throne from Arthurs legitimate sons. Arthur himself was a bastard, so why should he deny his own eldest son, a bastard, the throne? The hypocrisy is rather deafening. Especially when the annals go on about Mordred being the most of Arthurs sons in grandeur, stature and ability; the greatest of his sons.

 

Even Malory, who depicts Mordred as a villain, notes that the people of England rallied to Mordred and not to Arthur in the conflict because, "with Arthur was none other life but war and strife, and with Sir Mordred was great joy and bliss." So my question is. If RJ is building on Arthurian legacy and Rand is Arthur, who is the Mordred behind which the common people will rally against Arthur?

[FarShainMael]

I loved the theory up until you started drawing Mat-Athur parallels. I think you are stretching things there. Also, I think you may have overlooked Slayer. He IS related to Rand on the Morgase side of the family, and TAR does seem to be likely as having a significant role in AMoL. One scenario that seems possible (not sure how likely though) is that Rand dies in the real world, gets revived via TAR somehow, at which point he does whatever he needs to do to beat the DO only to have Slayer mortally wound him...this precipitates the body-swap with Moridin.

 

I don't like the idea of slayer wounding Rand (he seems to be Perrin's enemy), but if Jordan wanted to keep with the Arthurian parallel, a scenario like this would work.

That's certainly a possibility, and indeed has been discussed on these forums by quite a few people. Indeed, we've already seen Slayer try to kill his nephew: in Far Madding, before the Cleansing.

 

But I fear you may have missed my point. The Mat-Arthur parallel, and the possibility of it leading to a confrontation between Mat and Olver, is my theory. All of the previous material is background to that, which has also been covered on this forum by myself and others. (I wasn't aware of the Rand-Tyr parallel until it was discussed here; and herid maintains a blog in which he discusses the connections between Perrin and Perun).

 

There's even been a discussion on a perceived 'creepiness' in Olver:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/13616-olver-little-bit-creepy/

 

And there has been some discussion of the possibility of Tuon bonding Mat:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/58913-hint-from-tom-to-seanchan-damane-resolution-theory/

 

Perhaps Mat will be seriously wounded by Olver, but manages to hang on, much as Perrin did after he was shot (TSR40-43), long enough to make it to TV in search of the HoV.. which is where Tuon would meet up with him.

[FarShainMael]

I fail to see your point with Mordred though, isn't his role in literature very conflicted? So how can one accurately claim to have taken a character than in himself is multiple characters? There are as many works which show Mordred as a sympathetic figure as there are those who vilify him. Depending on the annal he is either a protagonist or antagonist, which is rare for literary figures. The first editions of the legend always show Mordred in a Greco-tragic hero slant and blame much of the events on Arthurs blindness, arrogance and foolishness in not being able to see the potential greatness in his son, which later leads to the downfall. Also noting that the common people loved Mordred more than Arthur. Then later into the late Middle Ages to Renaissance Mordreds figure grew darker and probably reached it's apex at the time of Dante Alighieri. Then during the Victorian Age the image of the tragic hero Mordred started winning favor again. Today in modernity there is no clear Mordred and he is written as both protagonist/antagonist or a complex combination of both in books set in the Arthurian legend or era.

 

In Historia Brittonum it is stated that Mordred and Arthur were buried side by side father and son brought together at last through death. Furthermore it's extrapolated that Mordred was fully in his rights to seize the throne from Arthurs legitimate sons. Arthur himself was a bastard, so why should he deny his own eldest son, a bastard, the throne? The hypocrisy is rather deafening. Especially when the annals go on about Mordred being the most of Arthurs sons in grandeur, stature and ability; the greatest of his sons.

 

Even Malory, who depicts Mordred as a villain, notes that the people of England rallied to Mordred and not to Arthur in the conflict because, "with Arthur was none other life but war and strife, and with Sir Mordred was great joy and bliss." So my question is. If RJ is building on Arthurian legacy and Rand is Arthur, who is the Mordred behind which the common people will rally against Arthur?

 

Interesting points. The author Mary Stewart, who wrote a fictional but well-researched treatment of the Arthur legend in her Merlin trilogy and its sequel, 'The Wicked Day' which dealt specifically with Mordred and the conflict between him and his father, started off with the intention of casting Mordred firmly in the role of villain. As her research progressed she began to feel that legend had been grossly unfair to him. She noted that there were many 'absurdities' in the Mordred story. For example: Arthur's own actions were completely out of character, and were 'tainted with the same treachery for which he condemned his son'. If he distrusted Mordred so much, why leave him in charge, while he went on an expedition 'from which he might never return'?

 

Mary Stewart adjusted her own story to try and iron out some of these bumps, as she felt that 'for none of the "Mordred story" was there any evidence at all'.

 

This may be why the deadly conflict between father and son is the main aspect of the story which RJ chose to include. If, in fact, that is what he did!!

 

However, your final point about who the 'common people' will rally around is intriguing. If Mat does have to kill Olver, his action may well be misunderstood and resented, though probably not to the extent of the Band breaking up. (I can imagine a DF wanting this to happen, and planting the notion of Mat as his father's killer firmly in Olver's ugly little head..)

[Eichhörnchen]

I fail to see your point with Mordred though, isn't his role in literature very conflicted? So how can one accurately claim to have taken a character than in himself is multiple characters? There are as many works which show Mordred as a sympathetic figure as there are those who vilify him. Depending on the annal he is either a protagonist or antagonist, which is rare for literary figures. The first editions of the legend always show Mordred in a Greco-tragic hero slant and blame much of the events on Arthurs blindness, arrogance and foolishness in not being able to see the potential greatness in his son, which later leads to the downfall. Also noting that the common people loved Mordred more than Arthur. Then later into the late Middle Ages to Renaissance Mordreds figure grew darker and probably reached it's apex at the time of Dante Alighieri. Then during the Victorian Age the image of the tragic hero Mordred started winning favor again. Today in modernity there is no clear Mordred and he is written as both protagonist/antagonist or a complex combination of both in books set in the Arthurian legend or era.

 

In Historia Brittonum it is stated that Mordred and Arthur were buried side by side father and son brought together at last through death. Furthermore it's extrapolated that Mordred was fully in his rights to seize the throne from Arthurs legitimate sons. Arthur himself was a bastard, so why should he deny his own eldest son, a bastard, the throne? The hypocrisy is rather deafening. Especially when the annals go on about Mordred being the most of Arthurs sons in grandeur, stature and ability; the greatest of his sons.

 

Even Malory, who depicts Mordred as a villain, notes that the people of England rallied to Mordred and not to Arthur in the conflict because, "with Arthur was none other life but war and strife, and with Sir Mordred was great joy and bliss." So my question is. If RJ is building on Arthurian legacy and Rand is Arthur, who is the Mordred behind which the common people will rally against Arthur?

 

Interesting points. The author Mary Stewart, who wrote a fictional but well-researched treatment of the Arthur legend in her Merlin trilogy and its sequel, 'The Wicked Day' which dealt specifically with Mordred and the conflict between him and his father, started off with the intention of casting Mordred firmly in the role of villain. As her research progressed she began to feel that legend had been grossly unfair to him. She noted that there were many 'absurdities' in the Mordred story. For example: Arthur's own actions were completely out of character, and were 'tainted with the same treachery for which he condemned his son'. If he distrusted Mordred so much, why leave him in charge, while he went on an expedition 'from which he might never return'?

 

Mary Stewart adjusted her own story to try and iron out some of these bumps, as she felt that 'for none of the "Mordred story" was there any evidence at all'.

 

This may be why the deadly conflict between father and son is the main aspect of the story which RJ chose to include. If, in fact, that is what he did!!

 

However, your final point about who the 'common people' will rally around is intriguing. If Mat does have to kill Olver, his action may well be misunderstood and resented, though probably not to the extent of the Band breaking up. (I can imagine a DF wanting this to happen, and planting the notion of Mat as his father's killer firmly in Olver's ugly little head..)

 

 

Precisely. Mordred seems to get the Brutus treatment due solely to the virtue of a singular action. For example Brutus was considered one of the greatest and most honorable Romans. The relationship is also eerily similar with the Caesar Brutus relationship being remarkably father/son in nature, with some arguing that perhaps Brutus was an illegitimate son of Caesars. Brutus was highly respected even after the assassination of Caesar and was called by quite a few "the last of the Romans," a man unwilling to renege on principles or abide dictatorships no matter who ruled them.

 

Back to Mordred though it is in part why the common adage went, Arthur held the hearts of the Gods and Mordred the hearts of the people.

[FarShainMael]

Nice.

 

More thoughts.. After Olver dies, the one-eyed Mat walks the halls of TV, mourning Olver, while he searches for the HoV...

[WhiskyJack]

Nice.

 

More thoughts.. After Olver dies, the one-eyed Mat walks the halls of TV, mourning Olver, while he searches for the HoV...

 

 

Must be quite a mourning to travel from Camelyn to TV and then mourn there (in some hall)!

[FarShainMael]

Nice.

 

More thoughts.. After Olver dies, the one-eyed Mat walks the halls of TV, mourning Olver, while he searches for the HoV...

 

 

Must be quite a mourning to travel from Camelyn to TV and then mourn there (in some hall)!

 

Remember, he has to go to TV to collect the Horn.

[WhiskyJack]

Nice.

 

More thoughts.. After Olver dies, the one-eyed Mat walks the halls of TV, mourning Olver, while he searches for the HoV...

 

 

Must be quite a mourning to travel from Camelyn to TV and then mourn there (in some hall)!

 

Remember, he has to go to TV to collect the Horn.

 

Halls of mourning cannot be an actual place.I doubt TV has a hall just for Mourning.Halls of mourning just might be Camelyn city (Prophecy has word Halls in it instead of Hall) and he will "travel" it, not mourn in some hall. Afterall once he returns to Camelyn, whole city will be like Halls of Mourning

[FarShainMael]

Have another, closer look at my post.

[WhiskyJack]

In that day, When the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning is the actual prophecy..

 

You are interpreting this is as Mat "traveling(walking?) the hall(s) while mourning, right? That doesn't sound right, IMO. He is traveling the "halls of mourning". I don't think prophecy implies he is mourning himself. And even if he was, why would he wait and mourn in TV, when he is right now in Camelyn (or will be) and Oliver died there, allegedly. Would it not make sense that he first mourns in Camelyn and then travels to TV?

 

 

 

P.S: HoV is not lost or something. It needs no searching. SS knows exactly where it is and all Mat has to do is to ask and that's why he sent a messenger in advance.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Halls of Mouring = Tower of Gengjei IMO.

 

The Finns are the Warriors of Final Regret.

[WhiskyJack]

Could be...Could be pointing to their world itself..though I would have used the word running instead of traveling

[Barid Bel Medar]

Could be...Could be pointing to their world itself..though I would have used the word running instead of traveling ;)

 

or spinning around like a mad fool?

[WhiskyJack]

Mat to Thom in Finn world, "old lame wise, we are not in Kansas anymore"!

[Barid Bel Medar]

hahahaha, nice!

 

I dont wish to derail the thread any more though.

 

I think it is entirely possible.

 

 

Brandon and RJ have said that Oliver is there for a reason other than a red-herring for Gaidal. So far he hasnt really done that much, and the Battle of Caemlyn is here...

[W_A]

I would be really annoyed if that happened, because it just sounds WAY too much like Aram and Perrin for it not to seem badly written.

[FarShainMael]

I would be really annoyed if that happened, because it just sounds WAY too much like Aram and Perrin for it not to seem badly written.

 

I don't think there's that much similarity, really. Aram went after Perrin because Masema had convinced him that Perrin was a DF. Byar tried to kill Perrin in ToM for similar reasons. If Olver does go after Mat, it'll be for straightforward revenge. The Perrin parallel would be Bornhald, who's convinced Perrin killed his father - but he killed Byar to stop him (ToM41)!

[Durinax]

Anyone remember whether the gateway was in the new city or old city? (rather important question due to whether the defenders have a large wall to defend on or not)

[David Selig]

It's in the New City.

[maradon]

I would be really annoyed if that happened, because it just sounds WAY too much like Aram and Perrin for it not to seem badly written.

 

I don't think there's that much similarity, really. Aram went after Perrin because Masema had convinced him that Perrin was a DF. Byar tried to kill Perrin in ToM for similar reasons. If Olver does go after Mat, it'll be for straightforward revenge. The Perrin parallel would be Bornhald, who's convinced Perrin killed his father - but he killed Byar to stop him (ToM41)!

 

I thought Byar tried to kill Perrin because he was a darkfriend working for Greandal?

[Sid]

I thought Byar tried to kill Perrin because he was a darkfriend working for Greandal?

Unknown. He may have been a DF or simply under her compulsion.