Perrin and Rands death

[OptimusPrime]

Min: Hey Rand. Theres guna be another time when Perrin needs to be with you or you'll die.

Finns: To live you must die.

 

See what Im getting at? If Perrin is present, does that mean Rand will die the final death?

 

I think either Perrin will be absent, seemingly failing his task, and yet allowing him to die so he can live again like the Finns said, OR Perrin will be present, and Rand will die twice and survive both.

 

Thoughts, theories, ideas?

[Terez]

Min didn't say he would die - just that it would be 'very bad'. Death is probably a good assumption, but I don't really see what you're getting at. Some think the second time was when Perrin was there at Dragonmount in Tel'aran'rhiod. I think the second time will be after Rand dies, in Tel'aran'rhiod, because it seems that Slayer's main purpose is to assassinate him there when it will mean final death for the Dragon soul.

[OptimusPrime]

Ah, well never mind about what Min said. Um, thanks lol. Not sure I agree about Slayer assassinating Rand though

[Kal11]

Min didn't say he would die - just that it would be 'very bad'. Death is probably a good assumption, but I don't really see what you're getting at. Some think the second time was when Perrin was there at Dragonmount in Tel'aran'rhiod. I think the second time will be after Rand dies, in Tel'aran'rhiod, because it seems that Slayer's main purpose is to assassinate him there when it will mean final death for the Dragon soul.

 

That is an interesting idea. I will have to give it some thought.

[Hael Me]

Min didn't say he would die - just that it would be 'very bad'. Death is probably a good assumption, but I don't really see what you're getting at. Some think the second time was when Perrin was there at Dragonmount in Tel'aran'rhiod. I think the second time will be after Rand dies, in Tel'aran'rhiod, because it seems that Slayer's main purpose is to assassinate him there when it will mean final death for the Dragon soul.

 

I haven't decided. The second time could have been at Dragonmount - maybe the presence of another Ta'veren, even if it was in Tel'aran'rhiod, somehow helped Rand, who was assaulted by darkness from within at the time. The effects of Ta'veren on the Pattern are currently stronger than ever in Randland. Apples growing and food not spoiling is just the beginning...

 

I really like the theory of Perrin battling Slayer to save a currently dead Rand from total annihilation. That is one battle where The Wolf King really could help The Dragon Reborn.

 

My theory, however, is that this event, the second time, will occur at The Field of Merrilor or in a situation where Lanfear/Cyndane is the enemy. This task has been given to another, as Moridin put it. A trap has been laid and it will spring soon... On the other hand, I have always believed that Moiraine is going to be the one who finally defeats Lanfear.

[herid]

Min: Hey Rand. Theres guna be another time when Perrin needs to be with you or you'll die.

Finns: To live you must die.

 

See what Im getting at? If Perrin is present, does that mean Rand will die the final death?

 

I think either Perrin will be absent, seemingly failing his task, and yet allowing him to die so he can live again like the Finns said, OR Perrin will be present, and Rand will die twice and survive both.

 

Thoughts, theories, ideas?

I mention some pretty wild speculation on this subject (along the lines of what terez was suggesting) in my blog post about Perun-Perrin parallels.

[DocBean]

Here is her quote:

"When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever...But with the two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

 

The way she talks about it, it seems like she knows what will happen. I'm guessing he will die, and she didn't want to say it. Or he will turn evil / destroy the world. I can't think of any other option that would make her afraid to even say it out loud.

 

I've been one of the supporters of the theory that Slayer was created to kill Rand in T'A'R.

Now that we know even balefire won't be a final death for Rand, there is no other way to take him out.

 

My only problem with that is that I believe the Dark One wants Rand to survive so that Rand can kill him. Maybe Slayer taking out Rand is the Dark One's plan B.

 

I actually believe the Dark Prophecy is about Perrin, and Perrin's death will be needed so he is in the dreamworld ready to defend Rand, once Rand is dead.

The problem with that is, will he have time to claim his broken crown before biting it? but that's a whole other topic.

[Smittyphi]

Min didn't say he would die - just that it would be 'very bad'. Death is probably a good assumption, but I don't really see what you're getting at. Some think the second time was when Perrin was there at Dragonmount in Tel'aran'rhiod. I think the second time will be after Rand dies, in Tel'aran'rhiod, because it seems that Slayer's main purpose is to assassinate him there when it will mean final death for the Dragon soul.

+1

[OptimusPrime]

I always thought of Slayer as the Dark Ones instrument to kill the Heroes awaiting rebirth so as to weaken the Horn before it is sounded.

[mdnyttokr]

I actually believe the Dark Prophecy is about Perrin, and Perrin's death will be needed so he is in the dreamworld ready to defend Rand, once Rand is dead.

The problem with that is, will he have time to claim his broken crown before biting it? but that's a whole other topic.

 

I've been wondering if the Dark Prophecy is not about Perrin at all, but Elyas. HE's the one I think is going to die. I just have a hard time accepting that RJ had always planned to kill off Perrin specifically. I don't think that will happen. I think all three of them live to the end.

 

But I do wonder who WILL be killed off. I'm still betting on Galad, and possible Berelain. I just don't see how the story could end with one brother being the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light, and the other brother being the Warder to the Amyrlin Seat. Anything is possible, I guess.

 

I also think Lan is toast, maybe Nynaeve as well. If Perrin DOES die, then Faile will die with him.

[Skeeve the Great]

I always thought of Slayer as the Dark Ones instrument to kill the Heroes awaiting rebirth so as to weaken the Horn before it is sounded.

 

The problem with it is that no other Heroes were hunted down as far as we know and Slayer is in TAR almost 24/7 for couple years already.

[herid]

I always thought of Slayer as the Dark Ones instrument to kill the Heroes awaiting rebirth so as to weaken the Horn before it is sounded.

in that case he isn't doing a very good job, is he? I don't think Slayer can find Heores of the Horn in TAR. Most of the Heroes seem to abide by the precepts - they don't engage anybody in TAR. Birgitte is definitely an exception. And we don't have any evidence that Slayer can find people in TAR the way Birgitte could or even the way Perrin and the wolves can. He never tracked Perrin that way and he was certainly hugely surprised when Perrin could track him.

 

Perrin charged forward. Slayer looked up in surprise. He resembled

Lan in an almost eerie fashion, his hard face all angles and sharp lines. Perrin

roared, hammer suddenly in his hands.

Slayer vanished in a blink of an eye, and Perrin's hammer passed

through empty air. Perrin breathed deeply. The scents were there! Brine,

and wood, wet with water. Seagulls and their droppings. Perrin used his

newfound skill to hurl himself at that distant location.

Shift.

Perrin appeared on an empty dock in a city he didn't recognize. Slayer

stood nearby, inspecting his bow.

Perrin attacked. Slayer brought his head up, eyes widening, his scent

growing amazed.

-ToM, Ch 24

[Terez]

Yeah, I think that Rand's resurrection has been anticipated, likely due to the Shadow's prophecies. That's what Slayer is for - to hunt down the people trying to resurrect Rand, and kill him when the opportunity arises. So basically I see Perrin protecting Nynaeve.

[mb]

First time was for sure Dumai's Wells.

 

Second time I guess is yet to happen. Though I think it would be before Tarmon Gaidon.

Only pre-TG threat/threats left seem to be the Forsaken. The left Forsaken:: Moridin, Cyndane, Moghedien, Demandred, Graendal, maybe Mesaana.

 

Possible situations::

-Moridin/Cyndane/Moghedien through Telaranrhiod or through escaped Black Ajah.

-if Mesaana is still alive, through Black Ajah.

-Demandred through darkfriend Ashamen and/or through any of his country proxies.

-Graendal through Seanchan.

[Terez]

First time was for sure Dumai's Wells.

Was it? Seems to me that the Shaido were the main reason the Aes Sedai got distracted, allowing for Rand to escape, and of course Taim was the true savior of the day. Though I suppose you might say Taim would never have arrived if not for Perrin getting involved, but it seems to me more likely that everything was staged well in advance. Taim's assistance gives Rand yet another reason to trust him.

 

Don't get me wrong - I think Dumai's Wells is likely for the first time, even though Perrin didn't contribute much aside from ta'verenness and a little chaos. I just don't think it's necessarily sure. RJ likes red herrings.

[Terez]

The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,

one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now

course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

Friends for sacrifice=Lan?

[Finnssss22]

First time was for sure Dumai's Wells.

Was it? Seems to me that the Shaido were the main reason the Aes Sedai got distracted, allowing for Rand to escape, and of course Taim was the true savior of the day. Though I suppose you might say Taim would never have arrived if not for Perrin getting involved, but it seems to me more likely that everything was staged well in advance. Taim's assistance gives Rand yet another reason to trust him.

 

Don't get me wrong - I think Dumai's Wells is likely for the first time, even though Perrin didn't contribute much aside from ta'verenness and a little chaos. I just don't think it's necessarily sure. RJ likes red herrings.

 

 

No offense but I'd hardly call over 1000 wolves, 200 Winged Guards, 500 of Dobraine's armsmen, 500 Two Rivers bowmen, 6000 Aiel, 94 Wise One's, 9 Aes Sedai with 16 Warders plowing in as a concentrated force against a spread out Shaido force that is already fighting on one front as only "a little chaos".

 

That's a more than sizable force to contend with considering surprise and current formation.

Tactically, the Shaido would be lucky to be able to counter with a 1/5 of their force and that's coming out of a indefensible, flatfooted position to boot.

Perrin's forces would of dropped a few thousand Shaido in the first charge alone.

 

 

Either way, Perrin's attack wasn't so much about distracting the Aes Sedai holding Rand. It was more about distracting the Shaido and kept them from over-running the Aes Sedai camp.

IMO, if it wasn't for Perrin's attack, I have no doubt the Shaido would of overrun and controlled the camp and been in a much, much better position to deal with any attackers.

Suffice it to say, the Asha'man would of had a hell of a lot more trouble securing the camp if it was fully Shaido controlled with the possibility of Rand being recaptured and spirited away or even killed while trying.

 

 

Too many people discount Perrin's role in all that because on paper it's a little over 8000 against 40000 and that is far too simple a view.

[Terez]

First time was for sure Dumai's Wells.

Was it? Seems to me that the Shaido were the main reason the Aes Sedai got distracted, allowing for Rand to escape, and of course Taim was the true savior of the day. Though I suppose you might say Taim would never have arrived if not for Perrin getting involved, but it seems to me more likely that everything was staged well in advance. Taim's assistance gives Rand yet another reason to trust him.

 

Don't get me wrong - I think Dumai's Wells is likely for the first time, even though Perrin didn't contribute much aside from ta'verenness and a little chaos. I just don't think it's necessarily sure. RJ likes red herrings.

 

 

No offense but I'd hardly call over 1000 wolves, 200 Winged Guards, 500 of Dobraine's armsmen, 500 Two Rivers bowmen, 6000 Aiel, 94 Wise One's, 9 Aes Sedai with 16 Warders plowing in as a concentrated force against a spread out Shaido force that is already fighting on one front as only "a little chaos".

Point is, the Shaido took the heat off of Rand, so whatever Perrin was doing amounted to pretty much exactly that - just chaos.

 

Either way, Perrin's attack wasn't so much about distracting the Aes Sedai holding Rand. It was more about distracting the Shaido and kept them from over-running the Aes Sedai camp.

I think Taim did that. And I don't think they would have had any trouble at all against the Shaido because all the Shaido had were Wise Ones and fireballs. Asha'man are much more efficient than that.

[Finnssss22]

 

Point is, the Shaido took the heat off of Rand, so whatever Perrin was doing amounted to pretty much exactly that - just chaos.

 

That's not the whole point though and a far too simplistic and tactically poor view of what happened.

 

I think Taim did that. And I don't think they would have had any trouble at all against the Shaido because all the Shaido had were Wise Ones and fireballs. Asha'man are much more efficient than that.

 

As I said, Taim and co were able to quickly assert themselves into a strong defensible controlled area and more importantly, that area included Rand already. Perrin created that opportunity, no doubt about it.

Perrin didn't create more chaos, he actually did the opposite. Nothing would of been more chaotic than the Shaido having full control of the camp able to fully turn on Perrin's forces and the Asha'man having to engage in a full all out attack while still searching for Rand instead of defending.

[DocBean]

I always thought of Slayer as the Dark Ones instrument to kill the Heroes awaiting rebirth so as to weaken the Horn before it is sounded.

 

The problem with it is that no other Heroes were hunted down as far as we know and Slayer is in TAR almost 24/7 for couple years already.

 

One of my old pet theories was that Gadail Cain was killed by Slayer, and not reborn at all. I thought Birgitte was wrong in assuming he had been spun back out.

However, BS's quotes that he knows who Cain is, and Min's viewing of Birgitte with a much younger man squashed that theory.

 

I am a little disappointed that Slayer didn't take any of them out.

[DocBean]

The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,

one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now

course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

Friends for sacrifice=Lan?

 

Friends is plural. It cannot refer to Lan only.

I believe Perrin will be the other sacrifice. Death beyond dying means that Rand will be in real danger in T'A'R.

There is no other death beyond dying that we know of. Even Balefire doesn't destroy a soul completely.

 

If we know that Rand will die. We know that Slayer can hunt him in the Dreamworld, and we know that Perrin will have to save Rand twice.

Why is it so hard for you to make the connection of the Broken Wolf to Perrin?

 

We've even seen a foreshadowing of Perrin's breaking – he showed everyone a neat trick he's learned by splitting his body in two.

If the man side of that body dies, then you've got a broken wolf, and a fallen blacksmith.

[OptimusPrime]

I always thought of Slayer as the Dark Ones instrument to kill the Heroes awaiting rebirth so as to weaken the Horn before it is sounded.

 

The problem with it is that no other Heroes were hunted down as far as we know and Slayer is in TAR almost 24/7 for couple years already.

 

So you're saying hes been standing around for two years waiting for Rand to come to T'A'R. I doubt it. Yes, we saw Slayer had been ordered to kill Rand. But hes not been standing around waiting for just that, no way. I like to think Moridin has more productive plans for his tools.

[Terez]

The man who channels stands alone.

He gives his friends for sacrifice.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,

one to life eternal.

Which will he choose? Which will he choose?

What hand shelters? What hand slays?

Blood feeds blood.

Blood calls blood.

Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now

course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

Friends for sacrifice=Lan?

 

Friends is plural. It cannot refer to Lan only.

I didn't say that it did. I just think Lan is a good example, and with that in mind it puts a time-frame on the events in that stanza, where Rand has to choose between life eternal and death beyond dying. Of course, you might say that Dragonmount fulfilled that particular stanza. If he'd destroyed the Pattern, his death would have also been permanent.

 

There is no other death beyond dying that we know of.

Machin Shin eats souls, and the Dark One does something similar in the making of Gray Men.

 

Why is it so hard for you to make the connection of the Broken Wolf to Perrin?

It's not hard at all. Too easy, in my opinion (aside from it not making sense for the rest of the qualifications).

[Terez]

I always thought of Slayer as the Dark Ones instrument to kill the Heroes awaiting rebirth so as to weaken the Horn before it is sounded.

 

The problem with it is that no other Heroes were hunted down as far as we know and Slayer is in TAR almost 24/7 for couple years already.

 

So you're saying hes been standing around for two years waiting for Rand to come to T'A'R. I doubt it. Yes, we saw Slayer had been ordered to kill Rand. But hes not been standing around waiting for just that, no way. I like to think Moridin has more productive plans for his tools.

He's not just standing around waiting - he's creating an army of nearly-invincible Darkhounds. He has to create them in Tel'aran'rhiod.

[OptimusPrime]

See thats just the thing. Darkhounds are made in T'A'R. Slayer might not be able to find the Heroes himself, but I reckon they can. If theyve been used for much in the waking world then either theyre crap or theyve been used for something small, which I personally doubt.

 

Ive got this theory about the Horn, that the Heroes are the Wheels plan B in the event that the Dragon turns Dark. Hes a tool of unimagineable power, able to bend the Pattern to his will. If he turns Dark... then something bigs got to happen to kill him, right? The Horn. Summon the Heroes against a Dark Dragon, create a rift in the Pattern, a rift that might just destroy the Dragons Ta'verenism, making him just another channeler.

 

If the Heroes of the Horn were small in numbers when they were summoned, a Dark Dragon might be able to defeat them... so kill off the Heroes and the Lights plan B will be less likely to succeed... Hello Slayer.