The Attack on Algarin's Manor

[Luckers]

The Order

 

The first issue here is that the order was not obeyed because the man who ordered it looked like Sammael, it was obeyed because the one who gave the order had the Chosen Mark.

 

"Sammael, or someone disguised as him, gave orders to the Myrdraal, and they obeyed so it was one of the Chosen."

 

[KoD--3--At the Gardens]

 

For clarity, the Chosen Mark is a sort of imprint the Dark One puts on the souls of his high chosen. RJ describes it thus.

 

Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

 

[Tor QotW]

 

Moridin's point is clear--despite the fact that he looked like Sammael, the fact that he was obeyed means he was one of the Chosen (and thus had the mark). Had he not had the mark, even looking like Sammael would not have helped.

 

But What of Fain?

 

We’ve seen Fain command Myrdraal in the past, without the Mark, so couldn’t he have used his tricks again? And Fain has a lot more going for him; he has the ability to create illusions, and thus could make himself look like Sammael, he’s got an ability to control or command Machin Shin, thus providing for the way a hundred thousand Trollocs passed through the Way’s safely.

 

But it is the very first point, the commanding of Myrdraal, where we run into trouble. Consider the way Fain gains the obedience of the Myrdraal.

 

With a sigh, he seated himself on the edge of his bed. The lamps were already lit, more than a dozen, leaving no shadow anywhere. The tent was as bright inside as noonday. "Have you thought over my proposal? Accept, and you walk free. Refuse.... I know how to hurt your sort., I can make you scream through endless dying. Forever dying, forever screaming."

 

The chains hummed at a jerk; the stakes driven deep into the ground creaked. "Very well. The Myrddraal's voice was dried snakeskin crumbling. "I accept. Release me."

 

Ordeith smiled. It thought him a fool. It would learn. They all would. "First, the matter of ... shall we say, agreements and accord?" As he talked, the Myrddraal began to sweat.

 

[tSR--31--Assurences]

 

Essentially, yes, he does use his abilities to gain obedience from the Myrdraal, but only in the form of giving it pain. As flashy as his methods are, they are still just a way of performing torture. It takes time for the Myrdraal to break—it even pretends to break, intending to later go back on its word.

 

The ‘Sammael’ did not torture hundreds of Myrdraal into obeying him. He commanded, they obeyed. Fain, for all that he had going for him, could not have done that.

 

As Moridin states that means the Chosen and their Mark.

 

Troop Movement; The Machin Shin Problem

 

If it wasn’t Fain, with his ability to command Machin Shin, then how did one hundred thousand Trollocs move through the waves unmolested by the Black Wind? Based on Moiraine and Rand’s fights with Machin Shin channelling does not provide the answer—the strongest channeler on earth could not have protected and shielded that many Trollocs for the time it took them to move through the Ways—and that many all at once should have attracted the Wind immediately upon entering.

 

When Was The Attack Launched

 

One of the suggested answers for the Machin Shin problem is that the movement was staggered. Sent bit by bit and built up in Tear before initiating the attack, much like how Isam gathered forces in the Two Rivers. Unfortunately this suggestion is just as problematic as the issue it is attempting to solve. Consider;-

 

According to the Steven Cooper Timeline, Rand has been at the manor in Tear for 28 days. Even sending the Trollocs through the ways in small groups, to have gathered a hundred thousand in twenty-eight days they would need to send at least 7100 through at a time, which given Machin Shin's nature is as impossible as the hundred thousand. Furthermore we know pretty much every Trolloc that was sent made it to the manor in tear, or rather every Myrdraal which amounts to the same thing in a group scenario. Even sending them in groups shouldn't be possible if Machin Shin were doing its job properly.

 

So Is Machin Shin Doing It’s Job?

 

Perhaps not. This provides the most viable answer to the Machin Shin problem—that rather than someone figuring out a way to get around it, it simply wasn’t there to cause a problem to begin with. Specifically I’m talking of its changing nature--ever since it encountered Fain in tEotW we have seen its behaviour change--waiting at Waygates, trying to force its way out and at times appearing as if it might succeed. These changes occurred within a six month period, and it has been a further year and half since then for it to continue to change.

 

Either way, whatever is going on with Machin Shin it did not attack the Trollocs, and that doesn’t stand as evidence that a plan was put in place by the person who ordered this attack for sending the Trollocs through in small groups. As such Moridin's comments indicate a certain degree of immediacy--he learned of it, and summoned the meeting in TAR straight away to issue his commands that the missing Trollocs be watched for. Likely within the last three or four days.

 

The Nature of the Attack

 

Ok, so send a hundred thousand Trollocs to kill Rand. Seems a simple enough plan, no? And indeed, as Logain states it was a close run thing. Without his Asha'men reinforcements they might have lost. Only pause for a moment a consider that--Rand had the male Choedan Kal and Callandor, and the Trollocs attacked in a neat little group that would have been right for the plucking. By all rights it should never have come to be as close as it did, only Rand's lack of foresight allowed for that.

 

Some point out that Rand may not have had the Choedan Kal or Callandor on him—that he had hidden them, or that Cadsuane had retained possession of them—but that’s irrelevant here. What we are discussing is the effects of the presence of these two sa’angreal would play to someone planning the attack.

 

The Forsaken knew Rand had the two sa’angreal with him. More importantly they had just walked away from getting spanked around by Rand and his followers due in large part to the superior preparation Cadsuane had put in place. In effect they had reason to not only be aware of the presence of those sa’angreal, they had reason to expect that Rand and those with him would be prepared to use them in the event of an attack. That Rand wasn’t is irrelevant, as is the fact that it didn’t occur to him when the attack was initiated.

 

From that point we have the fact that the Forsaken lived through the war known as THE war of the power. They knew what the power could do against an army unprotected by their own channelers. Effectively they had no reason to expect Rand to be an idiot, and from their perspective launching such an attack serves no purpose but to bring Rand's attention back onto the Shadow, which seems counter-productive after all their hard work on spreading dissension and causing drama amongst the light, whilst keeping the Blight as quiet as a lamb. It certainly did with Lan's.

 

Cyndane or Moghedien

 

So, for the majority of the Forsaken this attack would be an adventure in stupidity, or at the least short sightedness. Cyndane and Moghedien are the exception to this. Due to their enslavement to Moridin their resources are limited, and both have a deep obsessive hatred for one of the people present at Algarin’s manor. Cyndane also knows the trick of finding Rand through his ta’maral’ailen. So, they each have a specific motive—revenge—and both are limited in how they can enact that revenge, therefore explaining the easy ‘hit-or-miss’ nature of the Shadowspawn attack.

 

Moridin certainly seems concerned about letting Cyndane too close to Rand—saying that she would ‘accidentally’ kill him, and we’ve seen Moghedien detour from Moridin’s orders to try and kill Nynaeve in the past. That being said, Moridin still remains the big problem in this. When Moghedien makes her small diversion to try and kill Nynaeve she’s nearly out of her mind with fear that Moridin will know. She states “Moridin's instructions had been explicit, the price of disobedience made excruciatingly clear,” and the same again at the Cleansing—this time reinforced by Cyndane who made a similar comment about disobedience.

 

 

Moghedien’s fear at a small detour essentially rules her out—she literally is out of her mind with fear, even with her babbling to herself that he had never forbidden this. He had forbidden Shadowspawn involvement with the Light, and blatant act like subverting a hundred thousand Trollocs is a hundred fold the risk her trying to kill Nynaeve was. Cyndane likely faces the same restrictions though she has been willing to risk herself in her obsession with Rand in the past. Still, disobeying Moridin in such an open way bears such risk to either woman as to by itself make this theory unlikely.

 

So, without the limited resources and desperation Moghedien and Cyndane provide us with we are left wondering why the Forsaken used such a desperate plan. This leads to three options.

 

1. The attack was incidental.

2. They really did wish to draw Rand's attention to the North.

3. It wasn't the Forsaken.

 

The Attack Was Incidental

 

This suggestion is that the attack itself wasn't the point--if it killed Rand, hey great, but if not who cares. The issue here is what was the real intention? If it was simply to draw suspicion on one of their fellow Chosen why wear the Sammael mask? That straight up screams disguise, and given the Chosen all clearly thought he was dead (which he is) why would any be aiming for him. Why not appear as one of the alive and active Chosen? Unless of course there was no Sammael at all, as Dominic of the Thirteenth Depository point out. Or in other words, what if Moridin was lying?

 

Moridin

 

We can note there were already mind-games being played in the organisation of the room in the form of the additional chairs, so is it a far bet to suggest that this entire thing is some sort of game Moridin is playing to keep the Chosen off guard? Under this idea the attack being sent would serve the purpose of making the Chosen think they were being considered for treason, and given the Dark One’s treatment of treasonous Chosen thereby make them toe the line extra carefully.

 

In support of this idea, one may note that it wasn’t a stretch to figure out who the focus of the attack would be—and given Moridin can track Rand, yet makes no effort to place people at the Waygates near Rand’s position it would seem to indicate that Moridin did not care to make much of an effort to thwart the attack.

 

However, this idea is problematic. For one thing it seems overkill. The Forsaken had already been reined in by Shaidar Haren, and to directly underline that reining in Mesaana had been tortured for disobeying Moridin’s command to go and fight at the cleansing. Furthermore the Forsaken, those worth Moridin’s effort, anyway, were hardly cowards. They weren’t going to step back for the idea that they might be suspected of treason—especially given they all probably were contemplating treason. Aran’gar certainly was and she doesn’t bat an eye at this.

 

In effect the Forsaken had all been reined in as far as cheap theatrics were going to be able to achieve. Furthermore this attack serves no purpose but to refocus Rand on the north again—certainly it serves the trick with Lan. Given that keeping the light’s focus on the South and away from the Shadow is Moridin’s pet plan it seems unlikely he’d risk it for such a cheap trick.

 

Another point against Moridin is in the link between himself and Rand—note that he re-issues the no-kill order at the exact time the link grows strong enough to reveal itself for what it is—a link between his and Rand’s souls, as opposed to a channelling sickness side-effect of crossing balefire streams with Rand. That makes sense given what occurs to warders when their bond is broken. The bond and the link may be two distinct things, but Moridin must be at least concerned. That makes it less likely that he would wilfully risk Rand’s life before finding a way to safely break the connection.

 

Counter-point: Dominic of the Thirteenth Depository points out that the attack may not have been directed at Rand at all, but rather at his companions. Rand has assembled a very dangerous group and a worrying arsenal – sufficient to drive back an attack by all the Chosen but Mesaana and Moridin, without Rand himself , or the CK, even involved. Moridin may very well have qualms about letting such a group around Rand survive long enough to fight TG at his side. The real purpose of the attack may have been to destroy Rand’s “Companions”, possibly with commands issued to keep the Shadowspawn from killing Rand.

 

This idea would presumably imply that the effort with the Forsaken was simply a bonus. That Moridin took advantage of a pre-existing situation to serve a second purpose. However if the attack were officially sponsored by the Shadow to kill Rand’s coterie, why use Trollocs? If winnowing out Rand’s ranks was the purpose why not send the Gholam? Or even just a bunch of Grey Men? Rand may be well guarded, but his guards aren’t.

 

Sending a large force on the off chance of success against an enemy who could sweep them all aside like flotsam in a flood seems stupid and blunt. Moridin prides himself on the subtlety of his planning.

 

Graendal

 

It can be noted that with the exception of Graendal and Aran’gar the other six Chosen have seemingly formed alliances of three. Demandred, Mesaana and Semirhage, and the apparent alliance between Cyndane, Moghedien and Moridin (remember the Forsaken don't know of the cour'souvra, though Aran'gar guesses that that might be the case). This leaves Graendal and Aran'gar in a loose position. We know Aran'gar wasn't at fault (she wonders openly if Demandred is trying to hide that he did it), but it could be Graendal.

 

Under this theory Graendal caused the attack, intentionally blaming it on someone others would see through in order that everyone would suspect everyone else. People acting on their own causes division in alliances—‘if they’ve done this, what else may they be doing without my knowledge?’

 

Still this is problematic. Moridin’s control of Cyndane and Moghedien is openly authoritative, and that makes attempting to cause dissension between them pointless. Graendal could easily guess that both women would already be scheming against Moridin, and that Moridin would be aware of it. No one likes being forced to be openly submissive, much less one of the Chosen. As for Demandred, Semirhage and Mesaana—their alliance is constantly reinforced as weak. They do not tell each other their plans; they just hold a loose agreement not to move against each other until all the rest are out of the way. Graendal’s pretty cluey, and probably picked that up.

 

Graendal is also no fool. There are less self-destructive ways of causing dissension without risking the cause of the Shadow itself, much less disobeying the Dark One openly, especially given the Dark One only just cracked down on disobedience. Graendal’s shown herself to be too subtle for this sort of open movement.

 

Demandred

 

The only thing going for Demandred is his military background, and that in some ways stands against him, because he more than most would appreciate the stupidity of attacking Rand with a force that had no channelers. Dominic of the Thirteenth Depository also points out that his reaction to learning of the ‘Sammael’ speaks of his innocence—specifically, he blurts out that Sammael must be dead, realises that means one of them must be responsible, and backtracks to keep the idea of Sammael being alive open.

 

Counter-point: That could simply be good acting. Aran’gar considers that possibility.

 

Mesaana

 

Given her recent abuse for disobeying it would be strange for her to act now. Also no explanation for the stupidity of such an attack.

 

Semirhage

 

Given her plan to leash Rand, it is unlikely she would launch this attack anyway. And again there is no explanation for her to launch so stupid an attack.

 

 

The Attack Was Meant To Draw Rand's Attention North

 

I'm putting this up because I have seen it suggested, and more or less so that we can rule it out. The method of it would be that maybe one of the Forsaken was a double agent or has since decided to turn on the Shadow. Straight up it's unlikely, but as a source for this attack it’s impossible--there are better ways to warn Rand than to send an army to attack him, even if you feel certain it’s impossible that army would succeed. Some suggested Cyndane and Moghedian may fit here too, acting self-destructively out of a desire to get revenge on the Shadow for their soulbinding, but aside from the reasons above that stand against them disobeying Moridin, their obsessive hatred of Rand and Nynaeve respectively stop them trying to help Rand in anyway.

 

Nope. Looney bin with this one.

 

It Wasn't The Forsaken

 

Or rather, it wasn't one of the old Forsaken. Firstly, we know that around book ten the Dark One was feeling remarkably dissatisfied with his Chosen. He was forced to rely on them because they were irreplaceable in their knowledge and ability, yet they were fractious and self-serving, and the previous threat of their utter annihilation was no longer available.

 

He responded to this in a number of ways. Reining them in tightly under Moridin, Soulbinding Cyndane and Moghedien, having Shaidar Haren go over their heads to directly interact with darkfriends like Alviarin and so on.

 

It's in that last one that I believe the key is, specifically Shaidar Haren marks Alviarin with a weaker version of the Chosen Mark as a sign of favour. Now, that doesn't instantly mean that he's also raising new chosen, however it does show that Shaidar Haren is elevating Third Agers, and marking them--effectively it shows that the Dark One is attempting to create methods of accessing power without having to rely on the current Chosen too heavily.

 

Now Alviarin only gets a weak mark, which makes sense. She is not overly strong in the power, and her education is that of a Third Ager, and we know that the Dark One values these things in his Chosen. RJ stated it thus...

 

the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge.

 

[Tor QotW]

 

So, the Dark One clearly places value on knowledge and strength, yet he can't (and doesn't) like having to rely on his current Chosen, who in recent days have caused problems with disobedience. The answer is Taim.

 

Mazrim Taim

 

Origins

 

Firstly according to RJ he is 28 years of age in LoC, and the earliest a man can spark is 18*. This means that currently Taim has been channeling a minimum of 6 years and a maximum of around 11 years (a year has passed since LoC).

 

We also know something of what he was doing during the time prior to his announcing himself Dragon 2 years ago--he says that he found five men over the years who could channel, though the only one who had the courage to go beyond the training went mad after 2 years. That two years, along with the comment of 'over the years' plus the 2 years after he announced himself Dragon is why I set up the 6 year minimum, though in truth I believe it to be longer.

 

Now even 6 years is a long time for Taim not to be showing signs of the Taint--both the mental instability, and the physical rotting. It’s not impossible of course, and some suggest that Taim's emotional instability and hubris might be a form of highly functional insanity, but even so, it seems a long time.

 

This is what I suggest. Around fifteen or sixteen years ago we know that Ishamael was in one of his free cycles (he personally physically forced Jarna Milari into the ter'angreal that killed her) and that he knew at the time that the Dragon Reborn had been born, and that Tarmon Gai'don was fast approaching. At this time I believe that he set out to gather channelers--beginning by testing and training men himself directly (and probably having women trained as well, Liandrin certainly infers as much in tFoH), and then setting them to go out and train men.

 

Why do I believe Taim is one such? For starters we know that Ishamael did it before, during the Trolloc Wars, so it makes sense that he would do it again. Secondly we have Taim's mannerisms--comments like 'so-called Aiel', the use of the lightning bolt sigil favoured by Sammael and Be'lal, the colouring of the tiles, the use of the Lord of Chaos comment--all of which imply significant long term exposure to the Forsaken and their mannerisms.

 

Beyond which he actually states it, he says he found five men--he claims only one of those men went beyond the testing, and that man went mad in two years, yet this almost certainly must be a lie because we know Taim is a darkfriend--one way or another he IS a darkfriend. Thirdly, he comments to Rand that if you use too much power in testing a man for the ability, the resonance MIGHT kill him, yet if he learned this through personal experience then one of those five men died, and there is no 'might' about it. His knowledge is too exactly technical.

 

So that, according to this theory, is Taim's origins. From there I believe he was commanded to announce himself Dragon by Ishamael and perform atrocities to spread and heighten fear of the Dragon. Certainly that’s implied by the few comments we have about his actions in that time, of what he did to Bashere's emissaries.

 

What Ties Taim to this Attack

 

1. Timing. We know that less than three days prior to the attack Taim was desperately seeking to learn Rand's location--and yes, he didn't get it from Logain, but even assuming one of Logain's men isn't a plant then there are 51 Aes Sedai who directly stated their intention to play on the rift between Logain and Taim who could have revealed it.

 

From there, the timing is perfect. Three days, time to go to the Trollocs, command them into the Ways, have them travel the Ways, leave at Stedding Shangtai, and make the trip from there down into northern Tear and the manor.

 

2. History. Taim is well known for assuming Forsaken characteristics and mannerisms. He copies their language, uses their designs (the fist holding three prongs of lightning) and colours (the use of Moridin's red and black). It would fit with his nature to appear as Sammael.

 

3. Modus Operendi. Whilst the attack makes no sense from one of the real Forsaken, It fits Taim. His methods are always blunt--this almost exactly matched what he did during the attack on the Sun Palace, throwing force blindly as long as it can't be traced to him with no real pause for thought or planning on the off chance that it succeed. It matches what he did with saving Rand from the Grey Man, the way he set up his inner cadre of darkfriends, the attack on Demira, the way he responded to Pevara....

 

Taim is blunt, and so was this attack.

 

Why Would Moridin Let Taim Do This?

 

Who says he’d know? Shaidar Haren’s presumed reasoning for raising a new Chosen is to provide the Dark One with resources outside the established second age power structure—Moridin may be nae’blis, may even be well trusted by the Dark One, but that doesn’t mean the Dark One will tell him everything that he is doing. Indeed, that would be against everything we’ve observed of his behaviour. Here are Semirhage’s thoughts on the matter.

 

Asmodean. A traitor, and so doomed, but he really had vanished, and Shaidar Haran's existence and her own orders here combined to remind her that the Great Lord worked in his own ways toward his own goals. The Chosen were no more than pieces on the board; they might be Counselors and Spires, but they were still pieces. If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving Moghedien or Lanfear, or even Asmodean? Might Shaidar Haran not be sent to deliver covert commands to Graendal or Sammael? Or for that matter, to Demandred or Mesaana? Their uneasy alliance—if it could be called by so strong a name—had lasted a long time, but neither would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael

 

[LoC-6-Threads of Woven Shadow]

 

Moridin may be the greatest of the great pieces, but to the Dark One he is still a piece.

 

Ok, But Why Hasn’t the Dark One Done Anything?

 

The question of why the Dark One would let Taim go his own way, or at the least warn Moridin that Taim was about when some unknown Chosen started issuing orders contrary to the Shadow’s game plan is answered by the same answer we gave for Moridin above—who's to say he even knows this is going on, and thus needed to give Moridin this information? As Demandred states "He was never sure how much the Great Lord knew of the world. He had been as startled by ignorance as by knowledge." And as to why Moridin wouldn't have gone to him with this, maybe the Dark One is too busy. He denies access to himself as he chooses. Elaida says that "...the dead appearing was the first sign, a thinning of reality as the Dark One gathered himself."

 

We haven't seen the Dark One in person since he began to 'gather himself', but whatever he's been doing he's still in the process of doing it.

 

In the end though, the Mazrim Taim theory fits motive, opportunity, and methodology, but has the weakness of forcing us to assume facts not in evidence—specifically that he has been raised to the level of Chosen.

[dwn]

I'm not convinced the whole 'new round of Chosen' has all that sound a foundation. The only hint of something similar that we see is in Alviarin's marking, which (as you stated) is not the same thing as being marked as Chosen. Why would Taim receive so much greater an honour? Perhaps strength is the key, but that alone really doesn't seem adequate. Perhaps his Black Tower recruitment efforts did it.

 

I don't completely disagree with your conclusion, but there's an awful lot of conjecture behind it.

 

My previous stance on this question was that Aran'gar was behind it, given her POV in Knife of Dreams. Upon rereading the passages, I now think they can be interpreted two ways.

 

From 'At the Gardens', KOD p147-149:

 

"'That sounds like Sammael,' Demandred said thoughtfully, twisting his goblet and studying the swirling wine. 'Perhaps I was mistaken.' A remarkable admission, coming from him. Or an attempt to hide being the one who had worn Sammael as a disguise. She would like very much to know who had begun playing her own game. Or whether Sammael really was alive."

 

"Aran'gar took a sip of her wine. She had no objections to killing these two if she happened to come across them, but Moridin was going to be terribly disappointed over Rand al'Thor."

 

I originally interpreted these paragraphs as: Aran'gar has been impersonating Sammael and ordered the trolloc attack. She has reason to believe that someone else is 'playing the same' game and using Sammael as a convenient disguise when defying Moridin.

 

However, one could also read: Aran'gar has been impersonating the other Chosen, and has set in motion an unspecified plan to kill Rand. Another Chosen has apparently been doing the same sort of thing by impersonating Sammael and ordering trollocs around.

 

I still favour my original interpretation by a hair, mostly because Aran'gar comes across as incompetent enough to come up with such a clumsy scheme.

 

-- dwn

[MikeRiley]

There's no evidence to support that Fain can control or command Machin Shin, but there is evidence to support that he cannot.

 

In The Great Hunt, Fain entered the Ways from a palace in Cairhien. He knew Rand would follow him, he left Barthanes a message to deliver to him when he did.

Next, Fain arrives in Falme and tells Turak that Rand is an enemy and will be there within a few days.

 

While he's telling this to Turak, Rand's probably on his ride to the stedding after learning that Machin Shin had prevented him from doing what Fain wanted him to do: follow Fain into a Seanchan trap. Rand fails at the stedding too and is forced to take the much longer in-world route, making Fain a liar at Falme and foiling his plan for a showdown there.

 

We next see Fain in The Shadow Rising, foaming at the mouth and in a fury over Rand not coming like he had expected him to. As a result, he is in the Two Rivers to carry out on his threat. He wanted Rand to show up within days and thought Rand was not coming when he took longer, why when he supposedly set Machin Shin to guard the Ways against Rand's use?

 

Taking it a step further, we do know of one group of people that dislike Rand's use of the Ways: the forsaken. The Ways are unpredictable and until Rand began using them they were able to track him and pull the strings easier. Lanfear and Ishamael had already worked together earlier in The Great Hunt to try and force Rand to channel (the portal world scene), and with the Ways closed off from him it forced him to have to channel again. By making him channel they would have a string tied to him via the taint. Until he began channeling at the stones he was still saying he'd never touch the power so he wouldn't go mad. It's actually kind of similar to Shaidar Haran pushing him to desperation so he would reach for the True Power through the Moridin link, making him fully insane in The Gathering Storm (can you tell I really like the Shaidar Haran is Moridin theory?). Both were ties to the Dark One had the plan succeeded fully.

 

Anyway, back to that. The forsaken wouldn't want Rand to use the Ways. At the same time that Machin Shin is guarding the gates against Rand we also see a Black Ajah sister leading the wonder girls through the Ways to reach Falme. She has a paper detailing what to do and she is not worried. The feeling of contempt lies heavily around her character as she explains about the Black Wind to the girls, saying Moiraine doesn't know as much as she thinks. She must have had a talk with a forsaken in order to get that map she used and she must have had assurance that she would not be harmed or there would be worry. We know that Liandrin isn't exactly a calm and collected character.

 

In the first two books, the Ways were a popular setting for TAR "dreams that aren't dreams" created by Ishamael to harass the three ta'veren. He continually returns to this setting for the dreams, and even for at least one meeting with darkfriends. He was aware of them and made use of them.

 

There are two points against Machin Shin being controlled by the forsaken, though. The least first, in The Shadow Rising when Luc tells Perrin his trick killed a lot of trollocs. But this one can be dismissed on the idea that Machin Shin was not ordered specifically to leave Shadowspawn alone at this time, but to guard the Ways against Rand's entrance. Only after the trolloc feast at the Manetheren gate would Machin Shin have been given extra orders. Or perhaps, like trollocs, it requires a constant presence commanding it or it will do its own thing.

 

The next point against it would be the more likely, and was suggested by Luckers the last time this thread was posted. When Machin Shin came into contact with Fain it was corrupted and hunts for Rand just the same way that Fain does.

 

But my idea on who ordered the attack on Algarin's manor is going on the assumption that the forsaken both can and did command Machin Shin to avoid the shadowspawn. It removes the possibility of losing an entire trolloc army and ensures that everything will go as planned. Moridin is moving the trollocs through the Ways and Machin Shin would have been a top priority for him. So I think Machin Shin can be considered unimportant. A massive number of trollocs can be diverted from their original course and used in the attack at Algarin's manor on a short notice.

 

First, as to why the Sammael mask was used. There's a possibility that the one who made the order was not aware of all the alliances going on among the other forsaken. To take up the mask of a known dead forsaken, yes, it screams disguise - but so would using the mask of another who might be able to prove they did not have anything to do with it. If the impostor had taken the disguise of somebody who was working closely with another at that time then that would also whittle down the possible names by at least one more. By using the Sammael disguise they will be showing that a disguise was indeed used, but everybody would still be left in suspicion of the other. As Sammael is already dead he would not come to his own defense and explain why it wasn't him and no direct offense would be taken. The matter of the identity would more likely be dropped as there would be no real leads.

 

I believe it was Taim acting as a new (and unknown to the other) forsaken. Whoever did this did have the chosen mark. Demandred would be a good guess but what happened with the trollocs did not look like the plan of a good general and that's all we really know of him. Like the 3 points in favor of the Taim theory made in the thread post say, the attack suits Taim. Taim would be too new as a Chosen to know the undercurrents among the others and would not risk angering one. He might also have an order to keep low and avoid notice, so that the other Chosen will not recognize him as one despite his status, and not plot against him.

 

There are any number of ways Taim could have located Rand, and while Rand had the Choedan Kal access key on him, Taim hasn't seen him in a while and would probably believe that the attack could not fail. Had the attack not failed, whoever sent it would have to know that Rand would (at the very last) Travel away from there with as many people as he could save. It would free up the manor to be searched for whatever relics Rand left behind, such as the CK or that angreal Taim was looking for at Dumai's Wells.

 

By the way, if Taim is a new Chosen that makes him capable of turning those Aes Sedai he laughed at via the 13 x 13 trick. I can't see him allowing darkfriend channelers to bond light Aes Sedai like that otherwise. It would be a death wish. The only reason we haven't seen more new Chosen springing up is probably only because of the general level of incompetence in third age channelers.

[Jong]

To me it is obvious that the attack originated with one of the chosen.

 

Also, the numbers involved and the methods of the attack indicate that it was not well lead attack. In my experience whenever you get large round numbers of anything its because the number has been made up -- not calculated. 100,000 is clearly a made up number -- not a calculated number from a good general. The isolated nature of the attack seems to me to be a case of someone -- not versed in military tactics seeing an opportunity to ambush Rand and Co and then going for it in an obviously amateurish fashion.

 

So one question is, how did the Trollocs find Rand and Co?

 

Do we have confirmation that either Cyndane or Mordin can "read the pattern"? Even if they did, how would they know he would be vulnerable?

 

To me it seems much more straight forward than that. Someone in his entourage ratted him out.

 

We have at least two BA sisters in Rand's party. Either of them could have revealed his location. Elza was programmed to protect Rand so she seems less likely to have ratted on him. And given that the attack failed and that Verin left the next day would seem to indicate that she was involved. Her leaving after the failed attack seems to be an attempt to escape punishment for the failure.

 

Verin wanted Rand to think about the threats he is facing, the DO, shadow spawn in the blight, and not just about knocking down forsaken in the south. We get as much from her discussion with Egwene in TGS.

 

I would further conclude that Messana did not order the attack -- otherwise she would have gotten to Verin personally before she was able to speak to Egwene in the tower.

 

If I had to guess, I would say Moggy, mostly because the attack seemed so desperate, 100K seems like a made up number that a non-military person would come up with, and because there was no follow up with Verin -- Moggy was too busy fluffing Moridin and Shadar.

[The Fisher King]

Taim did it.

 

 

 

Fish

[Crael123]

Wait Ishy killed the tar'angreal lady?!?! this is news to me!! where does it say???

[Sharaman]

Jarna wasn't a "ter'angreal lady", she was the head of the Black Ajah. Ishy killed her by chucking her into a ter'angreal where she died painfully over several days as punishment because she had killed an Amyrlin without his say-so. As a matter of fact, Jarna had never been interested in ter'angreal. Read Alviarin's PoV (A CoS, Prologue) for more detail.

[sdelu]

Assuming that the impersonation bit wasn't a lie, how would Taim know what Sammael looked like? If Moridin was not behind the attack and it was in fact Taim (or anyone not Moridin really) then I see no reason why Moridin would lie about it. Especially if he's trying to get some sort of reaction from the gathered Forsaken, or at least let them know he knows of their shenanigans.

 

Either Moridin doesn't know who it was and wasn't lying about the impersonation, or he does and he did.

 

Either way, how would Taim know what appearance to take?

[Luckers]

Wait Ishy killed the tar'angreal lady?!?! this is news to me!! where does it say???

 

Alviarin states it at one point. I don't have my books on me, but its when she's thinking about how Ishamael made her leader of the Black Ajah.

[Crael123]

Jarna wasn't a "ter'angreal lady", she was the head of the Black Ajah. Ishy killed her by chucking her into a ter'angreal where she died painfully over several days as punishment because she had killed an Amyrlin without his say-so. As a matter of fact, Jarna had never been interested in ter'angreal. Read Alviarin's PoV (A CoS, Prologue) for more detail.

 

 

Wait Ishy killed the tar'angreal lady?!?! this is news to me!! where does it say???

 

Alviarin states it at one point. I don't have my books on me, but its when she's thinking about how Ishamael made her leader of the Black Ajah.

 

 

my bad you guys. alooota characters to keep track of

[Hybrid]

Jarna wasn't a "ter'angreal lady", she was the head of the Black Ajah. Ishy killed her by chucking her into a ter'angreal where she died painfully over several days as punishment because she had killed an Amyrlin without his say-so.

Was it because she killed Tamra Ospenya? I thought it was because of the hunt-and-destroy mission she authorized against lucky men (Dragon Reborn candidates).

[Luckers]

Jarna wasn't a "ter'angreal lady", she was the head of the Black Ajah. Ishy killed her by chucking her into a ter'angreal where she died painfully over several days as punishment because she had killed an Amyrlin without his say-so.

Was it because she killed Tamra Ospenya? I thought it was because of the hunt-and-destroy mission she authorized against lucky men (Dragon Reborn candidates).

 

Alviarin makes pretty clear that Ishy was super angry about Tamra. She states that she had to pay in pain to convince Ishy that she had nothing to do with it. I've no doubt the hunt and destroy mission was part of it though.

[Hybrid]

Hm. Don't have ACOS with me, but I see references (in the Wheel of Time Re-read on Tor.com and Encyclopaedia-WOT) for Jarna being punished for "what she had begun," which suggests the Dragon Reborn hunting. Does anyone have a quote?

 

EDIT: I do remember Alviarin musing on her own interrogation, but could she have been mistaken about the reason?

[Sharaman]

Apart from his killing Jarna, Alviarin remembers Ishamael making her and the BA council pay in pain before they could convince him that they had no responsibility in the decision to interrogate and kill Tamra. That makes it pretty clear what his stated motivations were.

[Ozzie_aiel]

The attack couldn't have been Sammael, even if he is alive. Sammael doesn't throw his soldiers lives away unless it gets him what he wants, and although Choedan Kal and Callandor would make great prizes, I think he'd want Rand to die at his hand personally.

 

Demandred could do it, hes still playing his games in the south and what would be a better way to gain a some breathing space than send the Dragon Reborn with his Attack Squad of Chosen Doom into the Blight? I doubt demandred has the same qualms about men that Sammael had.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The attack couldn't have been Sammael, even if he is alive. Sammael doesn't throw his soldiers lives away unless it gets him what he wants, and although Choedan Kal and Callandor would make great prizes, I think he'd want Rand to die at his hand personally.

 

Demandred could do it, hes still playing his games in the south and what would be a better way to gain a some breathing space than send the Dragon Reborn with his Attack Squad of Chosen Doom into the Blight? I doubt demandred has the same qualms about men that Sammael had.

 

Unless Demandred is the best actor in the world, he didnt do it. When Moridin brings it up, he is truly startled. If he had done it, he wouldnt have said anything, he is too smart by far.

 

WE dont know that he has plans "in the south", that was just Sammael, and he didnt like Demandred, so he could be wrong. Besides, the attack achieved relatively nothing. Demandred is the best General for the Shadow, (only outdone possibly by Mat) he wouldnt send a stupid attack likek that.

 

More and more likely it seems Taim did it, we know he is extremely paranoid and is always tracking Rand. (DW, the attack on Cairhien. In addition he has adopted Sammael and Be'lal's sigil, there is another point. Now this is only assuming, as some have suggested, that Taim has somehow been raised to Forsaken status, or given the Chosen Mark. Since we havent actually seen much of Taim since PoD, its entirely possible.

 

Otherwise, I would hazzard a guess at either Semirhage (who was with the Seanchan about to meet Rand, so she may have known something, and had reason to act) or Messaana.(who is pretty strung up at this point with the whole SH rape and suchlike. She is liable to make a stupid move like that. Messaana was never an adapt general, so she could be stupid enough to try the attack, and Semirhage was only passable, so she could also have done it .

[Sharaman]

Lucker's theory fits neatly if you make the appropriate assumptions about a new Chosen, Mark and all. If you're unwilling to make those assumptions, there is another possibility post-ToM, which is obviously spoiler-ridden and also way out of normal progression so, I'm not going to mention it here.

Restricting it to live Chosen in KoD, it's not Aran'gar, it's not likely to be Cyndane, Moghedien or Moridin (counting them as one). It doesn't seem to be Demandred, given his reactions and his known military ability.

I think Lucker's long opening post has the other hint. Assume that none of the Chosen would really have believed that Rand was incapable of dealing with the attack, given his possession of the CK and all the other channelers in his entourage. Rand's team fought off most of the Chosen between them at the Cleansing even without using the CK. So, the motivation must be something else. What?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Lucker's theory fits neatly if you make the appropriate assumptions about a new Chosen, Mark and all. If you're unwilling to make those assumptions, there is another possibility post-ToM, which is obviously spoiler-ridden and also way out of normal progression so, I'm not going to mention it here.

Restricting it to live Chosen in KoD, it's not Aran'gar, it's not likely to be Cyndane, Moghedien or Moridin (counting them as one). It doesn't seem to be Demandred, given his reactions and his known military ability.

I think Lucker's long opening post has the other hint. Assume that none of the Chosen would really have believed that Rand was incapable of dealing with the attack, given his possession of the CK and all the other channelers in his entourage. Rand's team fought off most of the Chosen between them at the Cleansing even without using the CK. So, the motivation must be something else. What?

 

I had a thought on Taim's motivation.

 

Perhaps it wasnt directed at Rand exactly, but at Logain?

 

WE know Taim and Logain have effectively split the BT between them, there is no love lsot between them.

 

Now consider what Logain actually went to see Rand for. He wants him to come back and sort Taim out because Logain thinks he is a DF.

 

Obviously Taim would not want Rand to get any word of this.

 

It would explain the timing. As soon as Taim found out where Logain was going, he sent the attack in desperation, obviously thinking Rand would come back and kill him. So it would be a delayed reaction (the arrival of Logain and the attack).

[mb]

Like others, I agree that the order came from one of the Forsaken.

 

Moridin, I doubt he would lie about such things to the Forsaken.

Moghedien & Cyndane, both have obeyed Moridin.

Arangar did not know.

Doubtfully Sammael being resurrected.

Doubtfully any others of the killed Forsaken being resurrected.

 

Thus the candidates would be narrowed down to these::

-Demandred

-Mesaana

-Graendal

-Semirhage

 

I guess females can't and/or won't disguise as males (and vise versa); so likely it was Demandred.

 

 

Edit:: There were similar discussions in the past.

[blazetheearth]

I agree.

 

Mostly.....

 

I think that Mordin knows now that it was Taim, but because of the 3 day window and how soon after the attack that the meeting of Chosen occurred, I don't think that Taim had the chance to tell him before Moridin confronted the rest about it, and Moridin would not tell them who did it once he found out because info is power. He would not want to look like a fool to the rest of the Chosen so Moridin would not reveal that he had learned that the attack was done by Taim even after Taim told him a few days later.

[Hadilmir]

Where does the info that the time-trap loop for Rand was Fain's? I personally thought it was a test from Lanfear, to see if Rand could break free from one of her weavings. To me, his reaction to this trap was one of the things that made her decide to take him out of this world and interact with him 1-on-1, so to speak, in the portal world. Was it a Jordan quote that I missed somewhere that attributes that loop to Fain or what?

Yea, it's a majorly overlooked quote that I didn't find til just recently-

Knife of Dreams book tour 27 October 2005' date=' Half Moon Bay - Chris reporting-[/url']

Another interesting question was about the scene with all the flies in the house in book two. This scene where Rand sees the same thing over and over again was actually Fain’s doing, a trap devised by him to put Rand in a time loop forever.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 27 October 2005, Half Moon Bay - Caychris reporting-

Someone asked about the house and the flies.⁵ He said it was a time loop trap set by Fain and if Rand had not left the house it would have repeated indefinitely till Rand died.

[Hadilmir]

Awesome. Thank you. That info definitely does put a different spin on events. With the 2 fly events linking them, I could see it being Fain more easily.

You should find two hours somewhere and do a read-through of the database. I did a while back, and when I returned, half of my previous theories had been torn completely to ribbons. It was quite a shame, really. Those were some interesting theories.

[Sid]

I never thought of those additional links to Fain. Nice theory Hadilmir.

[Agelmar]

That's still assuming Taim was given the Chosen Mark. Why make that stretch when Fain's access to a Chosen Mark is so perfectly laid out without any suspension of disbelief holes?

 

Assuming Taim was given the Chosen mark requires no greater suspension of disbelief than assuming Fain has access to it does. Quite to the contrary, really. Taim almost certainly received some training in the One Power prior to The Eye of the World, he has been a long-time darkfriend, he is extremely strong (Forsaken-level strength) in the One Power, he has done more to advance the Shadow's cause in the Third Age than any Forsaken other than Ishmael-Moridin, appears to have used the True Power in the past, and he has a built-in power base (his factio at the Black Tower). Frankly, I would be more surprised if he hadn't receivied the mark of the Chosen yet. He's a far cry from Alviarin, who has been an terrible failure as head of the Black Ajah and is much weaker in the power than any of the Forsaken.

 

While we know Sammael was killed by Mashadar, we don't know anything about what this consumption of souls really means. If Mashadar killed a warder, would the bond with his Aes Sedai be passed to Fain? Then why should the mark of a Chosen? And why should that mean Fain can directly use it as if he is a member of the Chosen? Can he also channel? I'm not prepared to dismiss Fain, because there is far more about him we don't know than that we do, but given what we know Taim appears the more likely suspect.

[GYLD]

If Mashadar killed a warder, would the bond with his Aes Sedai be passed to Fain? Then why should the mark of a Chosen?

 

The warder bond is not connected to the soul, at least I don't think it is. The Chosen mark very likely is as we've no reason to believe it had to be reapplied on any of the recycled Forsaken.

 

I really like this Fain idea.