Taim

[moroten]

We all got a funky feeling about Taim by now. Im definetly convinced that the guy is a darkfriend. But something is bugging me concerning the Dumai Well battle. Afterwards he tells the Aes Sedai to swear fealthy to Rand. He might have done a really fast adjustment in his head concerning if this will have a long lasting damages between Rand and the Rebel Aes Sedai(if he has that amount of information from that camp). But the immediate thought one think of having Aes Sedai swearing fealthy is that it can be usefull to Rand, the guy he is opposing. So why do it? Is it to plant Elza(who came first later) in Rand's trust? Or was he simply caught up in the tavereness as the Aes Sedai was?

 

The last is prolly the easiest answer but also the most booring one. Thoughts?

[Cut Strand]

We all got a funky feeling about Taim by now. Im definetly convinced that the guy is a darkfriend.

Or just a tremendous ***hole. Isn't the Dragon the Lord of Chaos? He breaks the land (shakes up the status quo) and changes it in his passing.

But something is bugging me concerning the Dumai Well battle. Afterwards he tells the Aes Sedai to swear fealthy to Rand. He might have done a really fast adjustment in his head concerning if this will have a long lasting damages between Rand and the Rebel Aes Sedai(if he has that amount of information from that camp). But the immediate thought one think of having Aes Sedai swearing fealthy is that it can be usefull to Rand, the guy he is opposing. So why do it? Is it to plant Elza (who came first later) in Rand's trust? Or was he simply caught up in the tavereness as the Aes Sedai was?

 

The last is prolly the easiest answer but also the most booring one. Thoughts?

Taim didn't demonstrate anything close to actually carrying out an execution on the Aes Sedai. In fact, in a prior meeting, Rand ordered Taim to not try to engage the Aes Sedai because he didn't want to give them a reason to start a war (and make people trust male channelers even less).

 

But the 9 bowing to Rand was all the Dragon's doing. He told the 9 from Andor to shut up and either go stand with the other Aes Sedai prisoners or kneel before him and swear fealty. Taim just reiterated Rand's order (probably because the idea of Aes Sedai submitting to a male channeler is a pleasant thought to him).

[Val Mickey]

He just hates Aes Sedai.

[Hybrid]

KOD epilogue was the final nail in the coffin for me. I never believed in Taimandred, but there are enough parallels to suggest Taim being the Third Age equivalent of Demandred/Sammael/Be'lal. Taim's certainly playing his own game, but he's almost definitely a Darkfriend.

 

And that's too bad, since I would have loved to see Taim as a good guy.

[Demiandre]

Maybe Taim isn't a Darkfriend but only a crazy bad guy. I want to believe there is more than just darkfriendness in him. Something in how he behaves make me wonder. I think he is insane, and maybe has a voice in his head telling him to kill such or such person. Maybe he convinced himself he was Lews Therin, or an AoLer reborn. Who knows? We never had any point of view from him.

[OptimusPrime]

Moridin

[Cut Strand]

Moridin

Wrong.

 

Moridin admits in a Point of View that he has been exclusively using the True Power and not saidin. Taim has been using saidin.

 

I agree that Taim is a modern day version of the three traitor guys, but I am not sure that means going over to the Shadow.

 

I think that there is too much "If you aren't with the Dragon, you are a darkfriend," going on. The Seanchan aren't with the Dragon, and the highest leadership aren't Darkfriends (anymore). The Children of the Light aren't darkfriends, most of them are just total ***holes (not that I really blame them for hating channelers, if I were a "have not" in the Westlands, I would hate the channelers too).

 

Taim made a comment during Rand's third visit to the farm (when it is first spoken of as "The Black Tower") it was something like "You can't teach a man to use saidin and expect him to not walk tall." This seems especially true as saidin must be dominated (while saidar is surrendered to). The force of will to wield saidin seems to inherently create alpha dogs. And anytime you start putting type A personalities together, you are going to have fights. Since most Asha'man are far too weak to challenge Rand in a head to head, that isn't much of a problem (even an type A personality recognizes someone out of their league), but Taim is close enough that it chafes being subordinate to another. Especially since he (Taim) is older and "more experienced with the Power." This disregards the little channeler speaking in Rand's head and occasional "muscle memory" (how else do you explain Rand's breakthroughs?). From Taim's (imagined) perspective, he is more qualified to lead than Rand. But Rand is the Dragon Reborn (Taim accepts this as fact, for now).

 

The theory someone else put forward is that Taim sincerely believes that if Rand died, the Pattern would demand a new Dragon and that it would allow him to step into the role in truth. Taim has like 9+ years of experience channeling, if his madness was subtle, then he could be mad and his anti-Rand actions aren't about the Glory of the Dark One, so much as the Glory of Taim. Not to mention that Taim already thinks Rand is insane (possibly beyond hope). Go re-read the first time Rand and Taim meet. Rand comes off as a total jerk. Then he (Rand) tries to smash a seal (which causes everyone present to all but poop bricks). If the Dragon Reborn is insane, perhaps he needs to be done away with so a new Dragon can be raised.

 

Taim even modeled his coat decorations after Rand's tattoos! That is more an indication of "replacement fantasy" than "I want to kill you so the Shadow wins!" Now obviously, a replaced Dragon Reborn that serves the Dark One would be really dangerous, but all Taim has to do as a darkfriend is take the darkfriend Asha'man and start nuking (earthquaking?) Tar Valon and other great cities (is there much down that a few dozen motivated channelers couldn't sink Tar Valon into the river?). He doesn't even have to fight Rand, he just has to make the Asha'man look insane/evil. It would be a irreversible PR nightmare (heck, he could devastate Tar Valon, but not destroy the Tower so that the Aes Sedai would start a war with Rand's remaining channelers). But Taim hasn't done it.

 

And I am pretty sure the Dragon Reborn is the Lord of Chaos.

1. "... and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind." / "When the Dragon is Reborn he will break all oaths, shatter all ties."

2. What he did to the Aiel threw them into existential chaos.

3. His coming caused factions in the White Tower to perform a coup which split the White Tower.

 

Taim being weird and telling the Red sisters "Let the Lord of Chaos rule!" could be him just trying to shake things up to try to establish that he could be the Lord of Chaos, and therefore the Dragon Reborn.

 

If we get a Taim PoV that has him admitting he is a darkfriend, I will gladly eat my words. And by no means do I think for certain that Taim isn't a darkfriend, I just think that the evidence so far just has him cast as an ambitious traitor to Rand, not necessarily a traitor to the Light.

[Naffy]

I sure hope he isn't a darkfriend, because he has the potential to be such a great, 3D character. If he is a darkfriend, it makes him much less interesting. I think that the KOD epilogue quote is pretty good evidence, but it is circumstantial. If he is not a darkfriend, the part that doesn't add up to me is why go to Rand in the first place? Why would he not try and take power of his own?

[Ashaman Kovan]

Aren't there already enough threads concerning Taim? Why make a new topic for this?

[Naffy]

Aren't there already enough threads concerning Taim? Why make a new topic for this?

Because he rules and we haven't heard from him for far too many books?

[Kaznen]

The device on his throne room was the same device Sammy used. And the red and black motif is Mordin's colors. And the renegade AM took orders form Taim and the forsaken when they tried to kill Rand in PoD.

 

I don't think Taim started out as a darkfriend but switched sides (maybe the forceful way with the 13 13) but when he met Rand he expected to be his partner, then he got sent to the Dragonsworn type rank of middle management, not even a high rank.

 

I think his resentment for being "disrespected" by Rand and his jealousy caused him to switch sides. There he is the highest ranked darkfriend aside from the forsaken, in his mind at least.

[Cut Strand]

Because he rules and we haven't heard from him for far too many books?

He was in Knife of Dreams? So... absent for 1 book?

 

Kaznen: Exactly: The renegade AM took orders from Taim AND Demandred AND Moridin. If Taim were a Darkfriend, one of the Forsaken would be micromanaging him into insanity (probably to the point of trying to kill one of them). But two Forsaken had to independently make similar orders.

 

Taim figured he could replace Rand.

Demandred wanted all of Rand's stuff.

Moridin wanted to get rid of CK statues.

 

And Rand put Taim pretty darn high in his forces. Despite acting like an ass toward Taim, Rand trusted him with a lot of responsibility and autonomy. Finding and training an army of channelers? That is huge. Taim was basically told, "I'm not going to micromanage you, just teach them how to channel and make sure they learn how to use a sword." If Rand had said to Taim, "Follow me around and act as my mentor/bodyguard," that would've been WAY lower than "headmaster" of the Black Tower.

 

And what device are you talking about in Taim's throne room? Is it the "gauntlet gripping three lightning bolts" on the doors? The only description of Taim's throne is "The man himself was lounging on what could only be called a throne, a massive chair as heavily carved and gilded as any throne she had seen, atop a white marble dais." That doesn't seem especially unique.

 

And who said Red+Black was Moridin's motif? If Moridin was using darkfriends from Taim's inner circle (which seems to be like 200+ Asha'man) then the Red+Black is Taim's, Moridin is just using "borrowing" Taim's colors.

 

I do find it weird that Taim would have Red/Black tiles but still have his sleeves embroidered with blue.

 

But the usage of Red could easily be a concession to Elayne since Red is the Andor color.

 

Heck, Taim's conversation at the end of the Knife of Dreams (cutting off Mishraile before he could say "Why should we allow any more men to be bonded?" bold is what I think he was going to say) are to mess with Rand. Having the Aes Sedai bond more men (with permission only) means he can have his inner circle decline bonds and have more Dragon loyalists taken away from the Black Tower. It strengthens his power grab. Plus it lets him **** around with Aes Sedai minds (plus, making Aes Sedai ask permission from a male channeler? That is one of Taim's O-buttons; the other is pushing around Aes Sedai and threatening them).

[Naffy]

Taim's orders to Kisman to kill Rand rule out the fact that Taim is Moridin.

[Kaznen]

Taim is the headmaster of Rand's errand boys. Taim wanted the AM to be a power to rival the AS but in terms of use all AM that Rand use are are taxi's and messengers. If they are not field artilery. But the AM, and Taim, are never in command of non-AM.

[OptimusPrime]

Moridin

Wrong.

 

Moridin admits in a Point of View that he has been exclusively using the True Power and not saidin. Taim has been using saidin.

 

Heh, thats a new counter point, but I seem to remember that Ishamael used to think he was the Dark One. Anyway do you remember when he stated that in his PoV, as in what book? We dont see Taim channel much from a male channelers PoV in the late series. In Winters Heart Taim had the same black aura Rand had in TGS, which I think is Moridins side of the link/merge being visible. Plus we see Taim shoot down an Ashaman for running his mouth in front of Aes Sedai, but IIRC we got that from a female channelers PoV so who knows what he was channeling. In front of Darkfriend Ashaman that is, so he probably didnt need to be too careful.

 

In Lord of Chaos, when Bashere casts his doubts about Taim being Taim, Taim retorted with remembering harming Basheres loved ones or some such. That convinced Bashere, but Rand felt cautious still, until seeing Taim actually channel. Rand then thinks to himself, on LoC page 112 paragraph 4, Rand thinks that seeing Taim channel with his own eyes proves Taim is Taim, even against the word and judgement of Bashere, who Rand comes to know as being a very solid minded, straightforward guy. Now Im not saying that automatically shows that Taim is Moridin, but I do think its one of those very sly little tricks RJ had with Rands PoV, where Rands justifications and reasoning very often seem correct to himself, but there a hole in that judgement that becomes the downfall, the loophole for something bad to pass through, I think the TGS scene with Graendals "death" was another example. he thought he had definitely without fail proved Graendal was dead. He thinks Taim channeling automatically makes Taim Taim despite someone who was headhunting Taim with an army voicing suspision. Both, to me, scream of something being missed by Rand. Especially when you also look at Taims testing of Damer Flynn, when keeping what we know of the spark and the ability to learn in mind, which we knew from Aes Sedai by that point. Taim tests Flynn, the flame floating in the air being the center of Flynn, Damer and Rands attention. Rand feels the resonance, which moments later Taim said meant Flynn could learn, yet Taim waited another two minutes after feeling tbe resonance. Taim declares Flynn can learn, and Rand thinks to himself, "Huh, Taims the know-it-all and yet I felt it first." Clearly, during the extra two minutes something else would have happened if Flynn had the spark. Yet because Rand doesnt have a clue about learning or the spark or the test, he assumes Taim was just slow, and feels pride-of all things, pride!-because he "felt the resonance before Taim." And yet Rand continues to think he DOES know everything, that he notices everything there is to notice about a person straight off, and foolishly puts all of Taims oddities from that first counter as simply that; first impressions. Yet when we read that scene, knowing what we have learned about sparkers and learners, obviously Taim knew exactly what he was doing, and Rands PoV made him a momentary laughingstock. The key to this bit though, is Rands process of proving to himself Taim is Taim. Let me do a mock version.

 

Rand, thinking to himself: Bashere, who has a frickin ARMY with him to kill THIS MAN, didnt recognise him. Clearly this is a pointless effort, sending an army to look for someone they dont recognise, theres no chance in hell Taims features arent what they should be. Well, Ive never met this man before, theres not a chance in hell that this is another channeler, because I am Rand al'Thor the King of Fools and this judgement process makes NO SENSE AT ALL, so simply if Taim can channel, he is Taim. Simple as that. *Taim channels* Okay so you're who you say you are, because you can channel. Cool. See those guys over there? They might be able to channel, so they might be Forsaken. Keep an eye on them pal okay? That pointless thing I just did wouldnt work on anyone else, I couldnt say to Flynn "channel, and prove that you are yourself!" ONLY because I hadnt already heard of Flynn, but I had heard of YOU Taim, so I can be as dumb as I want and still prove to myself you are Taim.

 

I would love it if people were to read just the first 3 chapters of Lord of Chaos and just for the sheer hell of it, go with the idea of Taim being Moridin. After being reincarnated, which happened between books 4 and 6, which was the BUTs time range according to Brandon. Taims harshness with Damer Flynn. Even the bit when Rand and Taim step through the gateway and Aviendha shouts from behind and Rand shuts the gateway to cut her off, Taims curiosity of that reminds me of Ishamael with his understanding-of-the-enemy way of thinking, wondering why Rand/Lews Therin of all people, who fought for love, would be distancing himself from women who doted on him. Which is the kind of thing Moridin wants I think, I think he was referring to this kind of thing when he thought to himself Rand was already acting how he wanted him to-distancing loved ones.

 

That feels like the tip of the iceberg to be honest. Meh, I know its one of the less favored theories, but I dont think its anywhere near as absurd as some people make out. Only time will tell

[Pertan]

I'd like for him to be something other than a darkfriend, it's been so hinted at that it would be more of a surprise if it turned out he isn't :)

[ChrisTrebing]

I personally don't see how there is any wiggle room about Taim being a Darkfriend. Also I personally would like to see Taim be a darkfriend. The shadow is too outnumbered. They have a handful of forsaken and a few million trollocs. Which mean nothing by the way since 30-40(?) channelers were able to kill 100,000. (I can't quite remember how many channelers were there, the scene where Rand is attacked by the horde of trollocs on the farm). Having a substantial chunk of the black tower side with the DO would make things a lot more balanced.

[Hybrid]

Taim's been personally teaching his 100 Asha'man. Unless you think he's only lecturing them, he's been using saidin.

 

This is really getting out of hand. People have to calm down and realize that it's possible that there's more than one bad guy in the series.

[nrm5021]

i was reading the LoC today, and i read something about taim that made me start to wonder about his origins. its in the "lessons and teachers" chapter right at the end. he was talking about building an army for rand with the recruits who couldnt channle and he said

"its time you started raising an army of your own instead of depending on others. bashere could change his mind; he will, if queen tenobia tells him to. and who can know what what these SO-CALLED AIEL will do."

seems that one would have to be from the AOL to want to refer to the aiel in that maner. just a thought

[Lynander]

I think it'd be fun if Logain ended up being the Darkfriend and Taim is just crazy. Not that I necesarily believe it.

[OptimusPrime]

I just think its funny when people say things like "understand theres more than one bad guy in the series" when Ishamael has a reputation for messing with Ta'veren right under their nose, and one of the series' most prominent ongoing themes is that people pretend to be someone else. The Taimandred thing was a popular theory until RJ wrote it off, and people act like he wrote off Taim being anything but himself. Clearly he didnt. Everything Taim says and does is just wrong, plain wrong. I also like how people dodge around the black aura thing.

[Kal Logan]

I think it would be cool if Mazrim Taim turned out not to be a Darkfriend, but I dont realy think that is very likely at this point.

And I think R.J. said in an interview that the reason Bashere didn't recognise Taim and also the reason Rand thinks that Taim is older than he looks, is because he looked worn and tired due to the amount of travelling he had done since escaping the Aes Sedai that had captured him.

[OptimusPrime]

He said that was why Rand misjudged Taims age, he didnt say that had anything to do with Basheres judgement.

 

Knowing Bashere, a Saldaean, would you say he wouldnt be able to recognise the guy he was specifically hunting if that guy had shaved? That was Taims excuse. Through the rest of the series we are shown that Bashere is quite a level headed man and I find it hard to believe he wouldnt recognise Taim under normal circumstances. Now that might be because Taim shaved AND he looked older from travelling, but I dont agree with that personally. What I think is that Moridin, in meeting Rand as Taim, basically tried to put doubt in Rands mind about Basheres... whats the word, competance? Rand wasnt phased in the long run because he trusts Bashere a lot. Yet the Darkfriend Bashere theories came partly from that remark I reckon as well as Mins viewing, I think Ishamael did a good job to be honest. He didnt convinve Rand, but he made some fans think Bashere was a Darkfriend.

[Naffy]

He said that was why Rand misjudged Taims age, he didnt say that had anything to do with Basheres judgement.

 

Knowing Bashere, a Saldaean, would you say he wouldnt be able to recognise the guy he was specifically hunting if that guy had shaved? That was Taims excuse. Through the rest of the series we are shown that Bashere is quite a level headed man and I find it hard to believe he wouldnt recognise Taim under normal circumstances. Now that might be because Taim shaved AND he looked older from travelling, but I dont agree with that personally. What I think is that Moridin, in meeting Rand as Taim, basically tried to put doubt in Rands mind about Basheres... whats the word, competance? Rand wasnt phased in the long run because he trusts Bashere a lot. Yet the Darkfriend Bashere theories came from that remark, I think Ishamael did a good job to be honest. He didnt convinve Rand, but he made some fans think Bashere was a Darkfriend.

Throughout the series, Moridin/Ishy has been explicit in not wanting to kill Rand. This is still the case. If Moridin was Taim, why would he order Rochaid/Kisman/Osangar to kill Rand?

[OptimusPrime]

He said that was why Rand misjudged Taims age, he didnt say that had anything to do with Basheres judgement.

 

Knowing Bashere, a Saldaean, would you say he wouldnt be able to recognise the guy he was specifically hunting if that guy had shaved? That was Taims excuse. Through the rest of the series we are shown that Bashere is quite a level headed man and I find it hard to believe he wouldnt recognise Taim under normal circumstances. Now that might be because Taim shaved AND he looked older from travelling, but I dont agree with that personally. What I think is that Moridin, in meeting Rand as Taim, basically tried to put doubt in Rands mind about Basheres... whats the word, competance? Rand wasnt phased in the long run because he trusts Bashere a lot. Yet the Darkfriend Bashere theories came from that remark, I think Ishamael did a good job to be honest. He didnt convinve Rand, but he made some fans think Bashere was a Darkfriend.

Throughout the series, Moridin/Ishy has been explicit in not wanting to kill Rand. This is still the case. If Moridin was Taim, why would he order Rochaid/Kisman/Osangar to kill Rand?

 

Ishamael/Moridin/Taim gave that order because he knew they wouldnt succeed, the Wheel wouldnt allow it. He wanted the Choeden Kal access key. The charade Moridin keeps up with this identity thing is there for the Darkfriend Ashaman as well, Ishamaels own miniatre game of "predicting the selfish" like Verin said the Dark One does. Ishamael doesnt need to have consistency in his orders among lesser minions, he just needs to tell them what they need to be told to get the job done. "Taims" order to kill Rand, and Moridins order to kill him if they had to to get the access key, the contradiction means nothing. What Moridin has portrayed there, through the two commands, is that the Choeden Kal is the most important thing.

 

I dont think Osan'gar was ordered to kill Rand. After all, Taim was surprised when Rand told him he had attacked.

 

Also, regarding the point on Moridin exclusively channeling TP yet still teaching in his private classes, well, Demandred gives them orders, why not have him teach them? Also Shaidar showed Elza weaves, without being able to channel saidar, did he not?