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Taim


moroten
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If Taim is a darkfriend, dreadlord, or forsaken, he is the worst (least efficient, bad at his job type of "worst" not "evil" worst) darkfriend, dreadlord, or forsaken ever.

 

He has been too bad at being "The Shadow" brand evil.

 

If Taim wanted to ruin the Dragon's chances at victory in the Last Battle, all he has to do is send skirmish Asha'man teams to scare the **** out of Rand's allies and enemies. Break the back of the armies of the Light.

 

Attack Tar Valon and start a mini-war of the Power. Then disappear and let the Aes Sedai retaliate against the Black Tower.

 

Do a "soft" attack on the various nations (except maybe Andor) and no one will work together with the Dragon. Reinforce the White Cloak's opinion on channelers. Heck, have some renegades admit they are darkfriends via that weaves that make them giant and loud, then kill a few people then retreat.

 

Even if Rand dispatches hunters to take out these "renegades" it is damn hard to force a Traveling channeler into a fight. The renegades could just camp out in some small village or go chill out at the "Gentle-Darkfriends Club" (they only accept personal checks from members, all others need cash or cashier's check).

 

Nope, Taim is intentionally trying to keep the Black Tower intact (even if it has political cracks in it) and "faithful" (in the "You can trust us to do what we say and not act irrational") to the outside world. That speaks of personal ambition. He expects Rand to die (at some point) and he wants to establish enough power within the Black Tower to be the de facto leader afterward.

 

A darkfriend doesn't need to worry about the perceptions of people and nations that won't exist after the Dark One wins.

 

The only "Shadow Brand" evil he has done is send a few guys to kill Rand. But that entirely goes against Moridin's orders (even when Rand was cleansing saidin) which were to "take Rand if possible (and retrieve the access keys), kill him if you must". And killing a rival is hardly an act that only darkfriends engage in.

 

Building a personal army (he had around 200 Asha'man in that room at the end of Knife of Dreams) is not behavior exclusive to darkfriends. He basically formed a giant clique in the Black Tower. The Aes Sedai have 7 Ajahs (plus the Black Ajah), which are basically giant cliques too. Go back and re-read the beginning of the Great Hunt when Amyrlin Suian talks about how the Greens are now allied with the Reds and the shock it has.

 

So Taim must be the most incompetent darkfriend, dreadlord, or forsaken ever. Or he is just an ***hole that wants to be the king of the world. Much as how he said in Chapter 2 of Lord of Chaos (something like "Yeah, I proclaimed myself as the Dragon Reborn. Why not? I can channel, and have been doing it a while; plus I didn't go crazy while the two guys I tried to teach did. So I proclaimed, built an army, and tried to get to Tear. If I had succeeded, history would remember that I was born on Dragonmount, even if I didn't.").

 

I get that the forsaken are supposed to be super arrogant and that makes them mess up, but Taim doesn't even try to be super evil.

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I have been saying for awhile that Taim being a darkfriend at this point is almost too obvious. There is probably much more to this character and his motives than that. It is possible that he started out on the side of light and has since been turned, but there is also the fact that he lived channeling saidin for so many years without losing his mind.

 

The "Taim being Moridin" theory is interesting. I remember how enthralled he was when Rand poored poison down the throat of a male channeler who had lost his mind. He was skeptical and almost excited that the Dragon Reborn had it in him. That, and his insistence that Rand stay alive, do suggest a Moridin-like attitude. Honestly, any of the other forsaken would not have rescued him.

 

Good question earlier, who is the Lord of Chaos. I thought it was Rand myself after reading the book.

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I have been saying for awhile that Taim being a darkfriend at this point is almost too obvious. There is probably much more to this character and his motives than that. It is possible that he started out on the side of light and has since been turned, but there is also the fact that he lived channeling saidin for so many years without losing his mind.

Who says he didn't lose his mind? A schizophrenic can compensate for their problem if they acknowledge it and question all their actions.

 

The "Taim being Moridin" theory is interesting. I remember how enthralled he was when Rand poured poison down the throat of a male channeler who had lost his mind. He was skeptical and almost excited that the Dragon Reborn had it in him. That, and his insistence that Rand stay alive, do suggest a Moridin-like attitude. Honestly, any of the other forsaken would not have rescued him.
Taim told Rand he needs to survive in like Lord of Chaos when they were in the farm house alone. At that point, Taim might not have been as crazy.

 

I think Taim has done as much channeling at the farm/Black Tower just during The Lord of Chaos book (which is over a few months?) as he did the entire time before meeting Rand.

 

I don't doubt Taim is a darkfriend because it is "too obvious;" I doubt Taim is a darkfriend because he is really bad at it (if what he have seen is him trying).

 

Also, I would go so far as to say that I don't think any man that would proclaim himself as the Dragon Reborn (the Light's Hand against the Dark One and the Shadow) could be a darkfriend. Moiraine commented in the Great Hunt that the Pattern demanded a Dragon, which implies that the choice to declare might not be voluntary. I don't think the Pattern has enough give for a darkfriend to make that step. Now Taim could be forced "Shadow Evil" (as opposed to Pride/Greed/Envy evil) afterward.

 

But again, I still think he is too incompetent at being "Shadow Evil" for him to be a servant of the Dark One.

 

Taim will probably be dealt with before we find out if he was a darkfriend or not.

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Because the Nae'Blis didn't want the other Chosen to find out he positioned himself at the head of the Black Tower. Ishamael has always tried to keep the Chosen 'in the dark' about his motives/ plans in the greater game. To him, the Chosen are nothing more then pawns. By positioning Osan'gar at the Tower, none of the other Chosen has any reason to wonder if Moridin was taking a more direct hand in matters, like they might if there wasn't a Chosen there that they knew about.

Seems a huge waste to use on a Chosen; pawns they may be, but the DO still considers them useful, especially since Osa`ngar had just been given a new body. Basically your implying that SH, and by extension the DO, would care enough about concealing Ishamaels activites enough to plant a decoy, when really all SH needed to do was to inform everyone Taim was a darkfriend that was of limits.

Who can say what or what isn't a waste to the Great Lord of the Dark? As long as the Fisher moves along paths that will lead to his destruction, the Dark One won't mind sacrificing his pawns one bit! Chosen or simple Darkfriend alike, they're all insects! The only piece that matters is the Fisher.

 

If you think placing Osan'gar (nothing more then a dagger; a deadly tool) at the Tower was a waste, how do you feel about Moridin betraying Sammael? Or 'wasting' Graendal and Semirhage?

They were just pieces on a board to him. And as long as those pieces served a purpose -even in dying- that helped the Fisher (Rand) move to a more favourable position on the board, Moridin couldn't care less what happens to his insects.

 

 

If Taim isnt Moridin, why does he have the black aura? It relates to True Power access, we have only seen two other people have it and both were True Power users. Taims appearance, between early Lord of Chaos and early Winters Heart, changes. He gets taller. Who else have we had comments on, about their appearance changing? I seem to remember a little convenient example in TGS where Graendal notes that Moridin is beginning to look like Rand. Where is all this evidence pointing, if not to Taim being Moridin?

 

Seriously. The ammount of evidence is ridiculous.

The amount of evidence that Taim is not a normal darkfriend is ridiculous yes, however the evidence concerning Taim being Moridin is not. Its there, but ridiculous is a bit extreme. I am still not entirely convinced that Taims height is constantly changing as some seem to think; it could simply be a matter of characters perception, or maybe even the simple fact of him making himself taller, in which the same way channelers can. After all, he would certainly have cause to be slightly more intimidating to Elayne.

Like I said, you might want to check out the scene where Min sees "Taim" his past in her Viewing. We have RJ stating more then once that Min can only see the future. And we have Min saying she "saw blood in Taim's Past & Future".

To me, that alone is like a neon sign saying "That creature -posing as Taim- is so deep in the Shadow, that when Min has a Viewing, it messes with Time itself!"

 

I go even further then to say that Taim is Moridin.

I think Moridin was transmigrated in Taim's body, and linked to a fade in a Slayer-like fashion (like I said earlier...you might want to dig up the "Equal yet not" thread)

 

 

Bashere came around when Taim told him some nasty stuff he did to Basheres loved ones. We dont know when that happened for one thing, and I cant pinpoint in my theory when exactly Taim became Moridin.

My best educated guess is somwhere in TSR, just before Chapter 17 (I think). The book is called "The Shadow Rising" (well..duh..that's a big hint right there!) and that chapter is called "Deceptions". The Amyrlin gets reports from both Taim his escape and at the same time recieves a report that the Blight has retreated for 2 miles for the first time in history~in that chapter. The Amyrlin seems to think that is good news, but to me it spells;

The Great Lord of the Dark 'rerouted' power to Distill Taim's mind, Transmigrate Ishamael into Taim's body and link a Fade to him, in the same way that the Great Lord of the Dark experimented with Luc & Isam to make Slayer. The Great Lord of the Dark used a lot of it's (limited) Power-supply right there and then, and in the proces temporarily lost a fraction of it's grip on the world, resulting in the Blight's retreat.

 

 

Memories come from a variety of external sources in this series though, Im willing to bet there are ways Moridin could have access to the memories of the guy whose body he took, what with Rand having memories of his past lives and whatnot.

Simple. We have proof. There is Padan Fain who -in his own pov/ thoughts- tells us that his mind was 'distilled'. And we have the Zomara -incidently (ahum) Ishamaels/Moridins 'pets'- that can read minds.

 

Cheerio,

Mik

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I think Moridin was transmigrated in Taim's body, and linked to a fade in a Slayer-like fashion (like I said earlier...you might want to dig up the "Equal yet not" thread)

 

If this is regarding the Moridin = Shadar Haran theory, it has been 100% debunked.

I doubt that.

I'll call your "100% debunked" (show me please?) and double the wager by stating it's impossible for the Watcher (ACoS, Ch20 - Patterns within patterns) to be Moridin.

The Watcher is Shaidar Haran, linked to Moridin like how Isam is linked to Luc as Slayer. :)

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I think Moridin was transmigrated in Taim's body, and linked to a fade in a Slayer-like fashion (like I said earlier...you might want to dig up the "Equal yet not" thread)

 

If this is regarding the Moridin = Shadar Haran theory, it has been 100% debunked.

I doubt that.

I'll call your "100% debunked" (show me please?) and double the wager by stating it's impossible for the Watcher (ACoS, Ch20 - Patterns within patterns) to be Moridin.

The Watcher is Shaidar Haran, linked to Moridin like how Isam is linked to Luc as Slayer. :)

 

IF you are saying Shaidar Haran and Moridin are the same, then im afraid its wrong.

 

Im not saying they are not linked somehow, but they are not two things in one body.

 

Im not talking about the watcher, its unrelated to anything I am saying, so no comment, you could be right.

 

Heres the link to the thread.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/49919-the-death-of-shaidar-haranmoridin-theory/

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I think Moridin was transmigrated in Taim's body, and linked to a fade in a Slayer-like fashion (like I said earlier...you might want to dig up the "Equal yet not" thread)

 

If this is regarding the Moridin = Shadar Haran theory, it has been 100% debunked.

I doubt that.

I'll call your "100% debunked" (show me please?) and double the wager by stating it's impossible for the Watcher (ACoS, Ch20 - Patterns within patterns) to be Moridin.

The Watcher is Shaidar Haran, linked to Moridin like how Isam is linked to Luc as Slayer. :)

 

IF you are saying Shaidar Haran and Moridin are the same, then im afraid its wrong.

.... Just re-read my statement you quoted.

I'm saying they're one creature 24/7, just like Slayer is. Does that mean a single individual? No, not if you look at Isam's & Luc's PoV's.

Only one does the thinking at any given moment. Yet they share eachothers memories even though only one can actually 'be' at any given moment.

 

Would you describe Slayer as a '24/7 creature'? I would.

 

Im not saying they are not linked somehow, but they are not two things in one body.

Actually, they are 'one creature' with 2 bodies available to it. Just like Slayer. Slayer has to move to TAR to swap. I think the Nae'blis has to step outside the Pattern to swap (just a hunch, could also be a vacuole).

 

Im not talking about the watcher, its unrelated to anything I am saying, so no comment, you could be right.

Awww. Not calling my bluff?! :myrddraal::tongue:

 

I'd have to say you're wrong.

Moridin & Shaidar Haran are one and the same being. A '24/7 creature'.

Doesn't mean said creature can't have two bodies and possibly two minds (what's left of both Ishamaels mind and a Fade mind... both excellent turf for Shai'tan to be present, since he rules Nothingness/the Void)

 

Like I said.. dig up "Equal yet not" and never mind Maj & Ares. They don't know what they're talking about.

 

EDIT:

Dug it up myself...here's the link to where it starts getting messy. I gave up in the end. I can't convince the 'willingly blind', but there's a lot of stuff there worth reading if you ask me.

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/29258-equal-yet-not/page__view__findpost__p__830337

Edited by Mik
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Gahh, so many edits, I really dont want to be offensive.

 

But Sorry, I am really not going to discuss anything with you any more.

 

Dismissing peoples opinion saying they dont know whta they are talking abotu and that others should dismiss them, well, thats just disrespect at its worst.

 

I cannot talk to someone who thinks everyone has no idea what they are saying.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Well, I'll bite. Why can't the watcher be Moridin?

For starters, for the single fact that a human male channeler can't see a link dissolve between a female and a male channeler.

That alone should do it, but there's more.

 

Re-read that "Equal yet not" thread (from page 4 and further or something), as I explained it all there years ago.

Edit: Here's the link to the first relevant post: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/29258-equal-yet-not/page__view__findpost__p__835965

 

 

@Barid Bel Medar;

Did you even bother to read that thread?

Then you might understand my remark.

It's frustration on my part, I guess.

But that doesn't make it less right.

 

I'll play nice(r ).

(We wouldn't want to hurt Mr Ares his feelings!)

 

Cheers,

Mik

Edited by Mik
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I think Moridin was transmigrated in Taim's body, and linked to a fade in a Slayer-like fashion (like I said earlier...you might want to dig up the "Equal yet not" thread)

 

If this is regarding the Moridin = Shadar Haran theory, it has been 100% debunked.

I doubt that.

I'll call your "100% debunked" (show me please?) and double the wager by stating it's impossible for the Watcher (ACoS, Ch20 - Patterns within patterns) to be Moridin.

The Watcher is Shaidar Haran, linked to Moridin like how Isam is linked to Luc as Slayer. :)

 

Er, did I miss something? Why is it impossible for Moridin to be the Watcher? I just re-read that scene and it seemed pretty obvious to me :P Not to mention, the Watcher has eyes. And SH does not.

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I think Moridin was transmigrated in Taim's body, and linked to a fade in a Slayer-like fashion (like I said earlier...you might want to dig up the "Equal yet not" thread)

 

If this is regarding the Moridin = Shadar Haran theory, it has been 100% debunked.

I doubt that.

I'll call your "100% debunked" (show me please?) and double the wager by stating it's impossible for the Watcher (ACoS, Ch20 - Patterns within patterns) to be Moridin.

The Watcher is Shaidar Haran, linked to Moridin like how Isam is linked to Luc as Slayer. :)

Er, did I miss something? Why is it impossible for Moridin to be the Watcher?

For starters, you obviously missed my post right above yours. Hehehe!

Like I said, it's impossible for a human male channeler (or a female channeler for that matter) to see/ sense the link between another male & female linked, and thus is it impossible to see it dissolve. Simple as 1-2-3. Since the Watcher saw the link between Sammy & Granny dissolve, the Watcher cannot be a normal human being. So yeah... you missed something, I'd say.

 

I just re-read that scene and it seemed pretty obvious to me :P

You might want to re-read it again then. This time try to get a feel for the distance between the Watcher and Sammy/ Granny. Then try to figure out how the Watcher noticed that Sammy let the link dissolve. Also try to figure out how on earth the Watcher could even know Sammy was actually holding on to the Source without doing anything with it. Also try to figure out how the Watcher made absolutely no sound and how he was able to easilly keep his balance where Sammy & Granny stumble around. Also try to figure out how a male human channeler would be able to 'step outside the Pattern' at the end of the scene. And remember that the only one we actually saw 'outside the Pattern' by choice was a special channeling Myrddraal.

 

These are just a few of the things you obviously missed...

 

Not to mention, the Watcher has eyes. And SH does not.

*buzzer* You walked right into RJ's PoV-trap. Everybody does it, so don't worry about it. Now try to realise that the only one who mentiones those eyes actually is the Watcher! Noone describes the Watcher...he just describes his own actions. That makes all the difference.

 

Again, I'd like you to recall a certain channeling Myrddraal who tels the 'gars that it takes some time to get used to their new bodies (Prologue). Shaidar Haran literally states that "the body bends to the soul, but that the mind bends to the body". It takes time for Aran'gar to adjust... to think as him-/herself as a woman. We see this is true in the books.

Following that line of reasoning, it also takes time for Ishamael-recycled to adjust to his own new form. And we can tell he almost messes up in the same scene where he wants to "give Aran'gar to... his brothers".

All we see happeing in the Watcher-scene is Ishamael-recycled (in both Taim's & a Fade's body a-la Slayer) adjusting to his new situation.

 

And to make your point even more moot;

Even the PoV in ACoS Chapter 40 (Spears) where Shaidar Haran -again- stalked Sammy & Granny, we see it thinking to itself how "in it's EYES, the Gateways left a residue to see". Clearly, Shaidar Haran is thinking about it's own visual capabilities and clearly we see it referring to EYES. Regardless of how he looks into the world, Shaidar Haran calls his visionary senses/organs "eyes"..

 

I just re-read that scene and it seemed pretty obvious to me :P

Dare I suggest you go take a look at the "Equal yet not" thread first this time and go re-read that same scene again? There is more to RJ's story and it's waiting to be found out by more people. :myrddraal:

 

Peace,

Mik

Edited by Mik
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Like I said, it's impossible for a human male channeler (or a female channeler for that matter) to see/ sense the link between another male & female linked, and thus is it impossible to see it dissolve.

 

Actually it is possible for a female channeler to see a link dissolve--when a link is formed the light around the channeler expands to include others in the circle.

 

It seems most reasonable that there is a similar sense involved with men. We know from Elza that part of the saidin stream must flow out from the male channeler to the female at all times to sustain the link, ergo it is simple logic that Moridin sensed this flow, and sensed it stop, making him aware the link had been severed.

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*claps*

Hey hey hey, Luckers! Last time around you didn't want to discus this topic! I'm glad you are here now man!

 

Like I said, it's impossible for a human male channeler (or a female channeler for that matter) to see/ sense the link between another male & female linked, and thus is it impossible to see it dissolve.

Actually it is possible for a female channeler to see a link dissolve--when a link is formed the light around the channeler expands to include others in the circle.

I'm clearly describing a situation of a Circle (or Ring) of just a male & female channeler.

You're describing a female channeler who's looking at a female-led Circle/ Ring. Or a female channeler who is describing a Circle/ Ring where she herself is part of the Circle.

 

As we can see from Nyn's PoV in KoD @ the manor house after the Trolloc-attack, female channelers don't see the link at all in a male/female ring of 2 channelers. Nyn only notices that the Aes Sedai & Asha'man who are on clean-up duty are linked due to the weird angles and bends Saidar makes and the intencity of the Fire-weave.

And that's just the females.

Males don't see a thing, unless they're part of the Ring.

 

 

It seems most reasonable that there is a similar sense involved with men.

First off, since you're wrong it's not really reasonable since we have proof (per Nyn's PoV) that it works differently.

And even if we assume for a minute you were right about the females, it's cutting corners way too short to assume it works the same with males. Since we know male & female channeling and all the goes with it is like comparing fire and water. Fish and birds.

Males don't see a thing to start with.

What you would call reasonale, isn't all that reasonable in fact.

 

We know from Elza that part of the saidin stream must flow out from the male channeler to the female at all times to sustain the link, ergo it is simple logic that Moridin sensed this flow, and sensed it stop, making him aware the link had been severed.

You're describing a female-led Ring from a females PoV.

 

I think it was you who mentioned apples and oranges once in the 'Equal yet not' thread. Well... apples and oranges right back at ya! ;)

And we didn't even take distance between Watcher & Sammy into account...

 

Cheerio,

Mik

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(wow. reply-bombartment! *ducks*)

 

Also doesnt the Watcher and Shaidar say they notice different things about the One Power, like the Watcher sees the link and Shaidar smells the difference between saidin and saidar? Pretty sure Shaidar said in his PoV that he couldnt SEE anything, whereas the Watcher can

That The Watcher and Shaidar Haran notice different things in different PoV's doesn't mean they can't be the same creature in both the PoV's!

 

As a silly analogy;

I could log out and post as a Guest that I can smell pancakes.

If I log in and post below that that I can see pancakes in that same thread.

Does that make me two people? :biggrin:

 

Now about your post;

I'm at work so can't really check anything, IIRC the Watcher doesn't actually think to himself that he saw the link dissolve, but he just mentioned that "Sammael had let the link dissolve, too" (as he had dropped his disguise). What's odd is that the Watcher shouldn't be able to see/ sense/ feel/ hear / whatever that Sammael had let the link with Graendal dissolve. But he does -somehow- notice! The Watcher can even notice that Sammael had let the link dissolve and still holds Saidin! Now that's really really odd. Not just that the Watcher notices that Sammael still holds Saidin (it IS odd, regarding the implied distance between them), but the Watcher can somehow distinguish between Sammael holding the Source linked and Sammael holding the Source alone!

 

It's in Shaidar Haran's PoV in chapter 40 that we learn it has visual capabilities regarding both Saidin & Saidar and that he can distinguish them also by smell! it makes sence that it was also Shaidar Haran in chapter 20, since he has a way to see Saidin.

 

Peace,

Mik :myrddraal:

Edited by Mik
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I'm clearly describing a situation of a Circle (or Ring) of just a male & female channeler.

You're describing a female channeler who's looking at a female-led Circle/ Ring. Or a female channeler who is describing a Circle/ Ring where she herself is part of the Circle.

 

As we can see from Nyn's PoV in KoD @ the manor house after the Trolloc-attack, female channelers don't see the link at all in a male/female ring of 2 channelers. Nyn only notices that the Aes Sedai & Asha'man who are on clean-up duty are linked due to the weird angles and bends Saidar makes and the intencity of the Fire-weave.

And that's just the females.

Males don't see a thing, unless they're part of the Ring.

 

Nynaeve doesn't mention the light of saidar at all. She speaks of the forced way the weaves move spoke of a link, but not that there weren't any other indicators. Besides, even if your inference is correct, this only speaks of the light not expanding to include men, not that she could not have felt the flow of saidar moving through the man.

 

First off, since you're wrong it's not really reasonable since we have proof (per Nyn's PoV) that it works differently.

 

First off, start phrasing things more nicely: "Well, I'm not sure your point is accurate, so I'm not sure how reasonable it is to suggest that. Consider..." would easily have done as well as what you said, and would not sound rude.

 

Secondly, Nyn's scene is not proof. It stands at best as suggestive evidence that the light of saidar doesn't expand to include men in a circle. No where is there direct evidence stating a man cannot sense a link dissolve.

 

And, setting aside the light of saidar, there is direct evidence that a man can sense saidin flow through a woman in a link.

 

For a moment Taim only looked at him, expressionless; then the Power flooded into him. There was no

glow such as women could see around one another, only a sense of force and menace, but Rand cbuld feel it clearly, and judge it. Taim held enough of saidin to devastate the farm*nd everyone there in seconds, enough to lay waste as far as he could see. It was not much short of what Rand himself could manage, unaided. But then, the man could be holding back. There was no sense of strain and he might not want to show his full strength to Rand; how could he know how Rand might react? Saidin, the sense of it, faded from Taim,

 

Rand quite clearly can sense the flow of saidin in Taim. Now consider...

 

Even though Merise was controlling the flows, the vileness of saidin turned Elza's stomach. It was a midden heap rotting in a sweltering summer.

 

Elza states clearly that saidin flows through her even though she isn't controlling the link.

 

Men can sense saidin in someone. Men can sense when saidin ceases to flow through someone. In a link, saidin flows through the woman even if she isn't melding the flows. When the link is released, saidin ceases to flow. Moridin sensed saidin in Graendal, much as Rand did in Taim, and Moridin sensed when saidin stopped flowing through Graendal, much as Rand did with Taim.

 

 

In any case, you've made the claim that it is impossible that men can sense the ceasation of a link. Do you have any proof? Maybe there is a unique feel to a male female link being severed that we've never been exposed to.

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Not to mention which, if the Dark One is able to give Slayer nifty abilities where he can enter TAR at will and switch between two different people, and give Fain the ability to feel the three boys, then I dont think its entirely out of the question that he gave Moridin some additional powers of that we don't know about. In fact, it actually makes perfect sense that he would do that to his most devoted follower.

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I'm clearly describing a situation of a Circle (or Ring) of just a male & female channeler.

You're describing a female channeler who's looking at a female-led Circle/ Ring. Or a female channeler who is describing a Circle/ Ring where she herself is part of the Circle.

 

As we can see from Nyn's PoV in KoD @ the manor house after the Trolloc-attack, female channelers don't see the link at all in a male/female ring of 2 channelers. Nyn only notices that the Aes Sedai & Asha'man who are on clean-up duty are linked due to the weird angles and bends Saidar makes and the intencity of the Fire-weave.

And that's just the females.

Males don't see a thing, unless they're part of the Ring.

Nynaeve doesn't mention the light of saidar at all. She speaks of the forced way the weaves move spoke of a link, but not that there weren't any other indicators.
Don't take this the wrong way please, but I don't really see the point of bringing up that Nynaeve doesn't mention the light of Saidar [around people] at all, since I feel it's irrelevant in this discussion. I'm not even sure why you bring it up. I said "Nyn only notices that the Aes Sedai & Asha'man.../ /...are linked due to the weird angles and bends Saidar makes and the intencity of the Fire-weave". I'm specifically talking about the weave, so I don't see the point you are trying to make by bringing it up?

 

Here's the quote:

They were linked. She could tell from the way the flows of saidar moved, stiffly, as though they were being forced into place rather than guided. Or rather, the men were trying to force them. That never worked with the female half of the Power. It was pure Fire, and the blazes were ferocious, fiercer than she would have expected from Fire alone. But of course they would be using saidin as well, and who could say what they were adding from that murderous chaos?

It's plain as grass that Nynaeve only knows the pairs she is watching are linked due to the way Saidar flows move. And she only knows that Saidin is involved in the weave as well is from the ferocity of the Fire-weave. And since Nynaeve thinks to herself that she knows they are linked due to how she sees Saidar behave is a clear and unmistakable way for us readers to tell she couldn't see or sense it in any other way.

 

Besides, even if your inference is correct, this only speaks of the light not expanding to include men, not that she could not have felt the flow of saidar moving through the man.
If she could have felt (or seen) the flow of Saidar through the men, then why is it that she clearly thinks to herself that 'they were linked due to how the Saidar Fire flow was woven'...?

I'm not sure i'd want to call it deduction on my part, but just a written fact by the author. What did I deduct/ infer?

 

 

First off, since you're wrong it's not really reasonable since we have proof (per Nyn's PoV) that it works differently.

First off, start phrasing things more nicely: "Well, I'm not sure your point is accurate, so I'm not sure how reasonable it is to suggest that. Consider..." would easily have done as well as what you said, and would not sound rude.

It's not my intention to make this sound rude at all. I was seriously trying to help you guys to make heads and tails of how I view this series. I'm way too direct and I more often then not just don't realise how offended people can be by my blunt response. I'll try to be less 'direct' or 'black&white'. I hope it helps that when I'm saying that you're in the thread really lifts my spirit. I'm sorry for being blunt. I'm just a blind fool when it comes to feelings more often then not.

 

Secondly, Nyn's scene is not proof. It stands at best as suggestive evidence that the light of saidar doesn't expand to include men in a circle. No where is there direct evidence stating a man cannot sense a link dissolve.

I think this is quite inaccurate. Logic suggests that for a man to be able to sense a link dissolve, he should in the first place be able to sense the link itself.

There are multiple occasions in the books, where it is clear beyonf a shadow of a doubt that men can't sense (nor see) the link between a man and a woman. Or even between a man and several females. Just to name two very telling examples, I'd like to point out the Cleansing scenes in WH. Demandred (a very very strong experienced channeler) never even notices that Flynn is linked to the Aes Sedai he is with. He only realizes they are linked after Flynn attacks him with webs that are way too strong for Flynn to weave them all by himself. The same goes for the Eben & Aran'gar scene (again, a very strong experienced channeler using Saidin). Aran'gar never even notices the link and refers to Eben as a servant (a groom IIRC). I believe there is more proof in the books, but I'm going off the top of my head here and this alone is more then enough proof if you ask me.

 

And, setting aside the light of saidar, there is direct evidence that a man can sense saidin flow through a woman in a link.

Please do set aside the light of saidar, because I feel it's very irrelevant.

Could you please post your direct evidence that one man can sense Saidin flow from another man through a woman in a link?

I would very much like to see it. I hope you do not find it rude that I need more then your word for it.

 

 

For a moment Taim only looked at him, expressionless; then the Power flooded into him. There was no

glow such as women could see around one another, only a sense of force and menace, but Rand could feel it clearly, and judge it. Taim held enough of saidin to devastate the farm and everyone there in seconds, enough to lay waste as far as he could see. It was not much short of what Rand himself could manage, unaided. But then, the man could be holding back. There was no sense of strain and he might not want to show his full strength to Rand; how could he know how Rand might react? Saidin, the sense of it, faded from Taim,

 

Rand quite clearly can sense the flow of saidin in Taim. Now consider...

 

Even though Merise was controlling the flows, the vileness of saidin turned Elza's stomach. It was a midden heap rotting in a sweltering summer.

 

Elza states clearly that saidin flows through her even though she isn't controlling the link.

 

Men can sense saidin in someone. Men can sense when saidin ceases to flow through someone. In a link, saidin flows through the woman even if she isn't melding the flows. When the link is released, saidin ceases to flow. Moridin sensed saidin in Graendal, much as Rand did in Taim, and Moridin sensed when saidin stopped flowing through Graendal, much as Rand did with Taim.

 

 

In any case, you've made the claim that it is impossible that men can sense the ceasation of a link. Do you have any proof? Maybe there is a unique feel to a male female link being severed that we've never been exposed to.

I'll be the first to admit that is some solid reasoning right there. And I'll even go as far as to say that your inferred conclusion is at the very least a nice hypothesis.

 

But wouldn't you agree that if we have black on white proof that very experienced, very strong male channelers (Demandred & Aran'gar @ the Cleansing in this case) can't even see or sense if a male is linked to females or not -regardless who is leading-, it's the only logical deduction to conclude that male channelers sure as hell can't tell if said undetectable link is disolved?

 

Know what I'm saying?

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Not to mention which, if the Dark One is able to give Slayer nifty abilities where he can enter TAR at will and switch between two different people, and give Fain the ability to feel the three boys, then I dont think its entirely out of the question that he gave Moridin some additional powers of that we don't know about. In fact, it actually makes perfect sense that he would do that to his most devoted follower.

Whatddayaknow! We agree! It makes perfect sense for Ishamael(-recycled) to be somehow linked to Myrddraal. You could call it Shai'tan his "gift" of adding additional powers to his most devoted follower! Heck, you could even call Slayer the prototype of what was done to Ishamael when Shai'tan recycled him!

 

And in a way, it makes sense the other way around too. Ishamael, being the actual Betrayer of Hope, has betrayed said hope by giving himself fully to Shai'tan -Body, Soul & Mind- to do with as the Great Lord of the Dark sees fit! What better way for Shai'tan to take a direct Hand in matters then by making a direct Hand in matters. Shai'tan only needed a 'vessel' loyal enough (and empty enough) that could channel!

To channel -regardless of OP or so-called TP-, you need a living mind (per Moiraines words in TEotW). Who was loyal enough and alive enough and willing enough to be part of that creature?

You guessed it; Ishamael.

 

This is why Trollocs call him "Heart of the Dark / Soul of the Shadow", because well... he quite literally is just that!

 

The Heart of the Dark (Ba'alz Amon) versus The Heart of the World (Tel Amon)!

The Eye of Everything (the World) versus The Eyeless of Nothingness (The Void)

It all fits like a glove.

 

 

A sidenote about the Slayer-character:

The charachter Slayer -and more specifically how RJ wrote it was created- is RJ's bypass past the Deux ex machina. By inventing Slayer he could pull the "god-out-of-the-machine"-card out of his sleeve in the end game (Tarmon Gai'don) without it actually being a "god-out-of-the-machine", so to speak.

In other words, I think RJ added Slayer to the story and hid Ishamael's growing link to Myrddraal really well, to be able to pull of his grand finale with a major shocker without it being foul play.

 

This is also the major reason why I started advocating my point of view before AMoL was to come out and why I shut up for a while again when it was torn into three books. I wanted this to stay hidden as long as possible (for RJ's sake), but I wanted it told so that it was clear it could be figured out before it was actually written in the books, thereby truely defusing the Deux-ex-machina.

Because if someone figured it out years ago, it's proof there never was a Deux-ex-machina! :jordan:

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I'm convinced now, Taim is Shaidar Haren in disguise.

 

[/sarcasm]

 

Look at thread title and look at how much the topic has drifted.

The topic hasn't drifted at all, but that might take more then a sarcastic glance.

 

Since you're so eager to get this topic back on track, why not give your thoughts on what (ahum) deviated this topic off course.

Answer us all this:

How come Min had a Viewing of both Past and Future concerning "Taim".

 

My take on this can be found here: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/8369-mazrim-taim-the-loose-cannon/page__view__findpost__p__1115349 in the Structured Taim thread (or just click 'show' below)

 

 

 

“Did you see anything, Min?” Rand said.

…/ /…

Settling her feet beneath her, [Min] looked up at Rand. Now that she was laughing again, she seemed radiant. That held even after she became serious. Serious, and not very pleased. “As for your question, nothing of any use. Taim has blood in his past and blood in his future, but you could guess that.

 

He’s a dangerous man.

 

They seem to be gathering images like Aes Sedai.” A sidelong look through lowered eyelashes at Dashiva and the other Asha’man said who she meant. Most people had few images around them, but Min said Aes Sedai and Warders always did. “The problem is, what I can see is all blurry. I think it’s because they’re holding the Power. That often seems true with Aes Sedai, and it’s worse when they’re actually channeling. Kiruna and that lot have all sorts of things around them, but they stay so close together that it all . . . well . . . jumbles together most of the time. It’s even muddier with the prisoners.”

 

“Never mind the prisoners,” Rand told her. “That’s what they’ll stay.”

 

“But Rand, I keep feeling there is something important, if I could only pick it out. You need to know.”

 

“ ‘If you don’t know everything, you must go on with what you do know,’ ” Rand quoted wryly. “It seems I never do know everything. Hardly enough, most of the time. But there’s no choice but to go on, is there.” That was not at all a question.

 

Q8: The auras that Min sees, would they ever show the person’s past or other elements that are simply unique to that person?

RJ: No, it is the future.

 

“Min sees images surrounding people who are important in the Pattern. She often cannot interpret what they mean, but they foretell future events and they always come true. Ta'veren always have images. Aes Sedai and their Warders nearly always have images as do the Asha'man. She never sees images around Ogier. Images of channelers are blurry when they hold the One Power, especially when they are actually channeling. If they are stilled, Aes Sedai no longer have constant auras.”

 

My take:

The important titbit that Min can't pick out is that Taim is the only person she ever saw something about that concerned his past! It should be impossible and thus would be very, very important to realize! Because the only being we know that has serious Time-related problems is Shai'tan, since he's bound by it! And who is literally 'but half a step below the Dark One'? Exactly, the Nae'Blis.

And who is Nae'Blis? Exactly; Moridin.

 

(what it means to actually be Nae'Blis is a different discussion, but is mighty important though)

 

Cheerio,

Mik

 

Taim is dead! Long live Tai... err... Moridin!

 

 

Cheers,

Mik :myrddraal:

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