4 hours ago, LightHelpMe said:

I realize it was battle lust, but he didn't kill the Whitecloak that was trying to kill him. He killed the man who killed Hopper. And he wasn't there to fight Whitecloaks, he was there to fight Seanchan. I'm not talking about it holding up in court, I'm talking about what is going to do to Perrin. In the books, he only kills Whitecloaks in self defense, and he kills enemies in battle. He could easily see Eamon Valda as an enemy, but not Bornhald.

I still don’t like the fact that he actually killed Geofram, but considering that he was held prisoner and tortured in a Whitecloak camp I think he could reasonably see them as enemies and as threat. I mean it wasn’t Valda alone who captured and held him and Egwene. I suppose you could argue that Geofram was complicit with Perrin’s torture. Given the Whitecloak power structure its a bit fuzzy as to who was in charge of the Whitecloak camp but surely the Lord Captain’s protest would have held some sway. Maybe it’s not as cut and dry as I originally thought. 

As to Egwene and the a’dam situation it really wan’t that bad. Look at it this way, what Egwene was and was not able to do was likely based largely on Renna’s desires and her beliefs about right and wrong. Renna certainly did not want to be bashed in the head with a water jug and probably believed that in general no one should be. She saw such as an act of violence and thus Egwene couldn’t do it.  Her beliefs about the a’dam were a bit different and more complex, she certainly did believe that collaring all mirath-damane was good and right and while she did not desire to be collared herself she did desire for all mirath-damane to be collared and she did not see such as an act of violence or harm. Egwene had figured out that Renna was mirath-damane and so in Renna’s own mind Egwene collaring a woman she knew to be mirath-damane was good and right and not an act of violence.  Certainly no restriction on a damane adhering to Seanchan belief and laws. 

18 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It has to do with Barney Harris quitting the show. They had to re-write the last episodes entirely and restructure all of Season 2. COVID restrictions came into play in terms of what they were and were not able to depict due to "social distancing" requirements in place at the time. 

 

 

I still don’t see how this forced them to film a scene where Loial and the Shinarins are stabbed by the Ruby dagger. And given that Raphe apparently knew the mistake had occurred then he should have stuck with it and just made it not an instant kill weapon in season 2. Come to think of it why didn’t the dagger kill Rand? In the books wasn’t it the presence of Shadow born evil in the wound that kept it at bay? Here’s a wild idea, why not just have Ishy strike the initial non-healing wound? 

23 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Yeah, I get that that’s how they are in the books but they clearly aren’t that in the show.  I’m trying to figure out how her visions work since she kind of botched this one.

Not really, she saw a vision that told her Mat would stab Rand but she didn’t know how or why. Just as in the books her visions aren’t just future events playing out and her knowledge of what they mean is vague and lacking in detail. 

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Was Min’s vision consistent?

 

Based on this episode, we have to conclude that a) Min’s visions are metaphorical and not literal, since what she saw was not what happened, and b) Min misinterprets her visions.

 

I don’t care if either of these is true, but it is consistent with how her visions have worked so far this show?  I really can’t remember now.

Min’s visions in the book were metaphorical and she often did not know what they meant. When she did know she was always right but still it was always very vague. Eg she knew Aliva would help Rand die but did not know how, when or any other details. In the books her visions were usually a symbol like a crown or a heart and were rarely a scene playing out. So her vision of Mat stabbing  Rand fits. The vision told her it would happen but not how or why. 
 

In the books Min would likely have looked at Rand and seen a knife and a pair of dice and knew it meant Mat would stab him. 

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

Rafe has addressed this, he stated in his twitter Q and A that a Covid mistake was made, and that sometimes you should just move on, I am happy with that. 
 

He has also stated that Barney quitting in season 1 meant they had to entirely re write season 2, he originally wanted to have the 3 boys together hunting the horn because he loves that, but once it was clear Matt would have to stay behind all of a sudden season 2 changes. 

What in the hell is a “covid mistake” exactly? Is it using covid as an excuse for bad writing? Because that’s sure what it sounds like. 

2 minutes ago, Gary Again said:

 

I think you are right about the spirit of the law but the letter of the law she didn't attack them with the power she attacked the boat with the power. Aes Sedai have a long history in the books getting around the spirit of the oaths because of loopholes in the letter of the law with the oaths.

Yes, but by this same logic could an AS not simply light a person’s clothes on fire and say, “I didn’t attack the person, I attacked the clothes. The person’s survival depends solely upon their choice to stop, drop and roll.”  Besides The intent is all in Moraine’s words to paraphrase, I would kill 1000 innocent people to protect the Dragon Reborn. Thus her intent was to use the OP to kill people, a clear violation of the 3rd oath. All in all not a bad episode but any way you slice it this is huge gaping plot hole. Just have to accept it and hope for a better season 3 🤷

9 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

What? So why would she do it? She did it to escape, not because it was not a weapon. She literally used it as a weapon to force Renna to release her. The a'dam is not like a court of law, where a lawyer can make some convincing argument about "what if", the a'dam knows the truth. Egwene wanted to be free and wanted to use the a'dam as  a weapon to get that freedom. Arguing otherwise is..... doubt I can finish that sentence while keeping to the forum rules.

Honestly if would have been much better writing had Egwene not killed the sul’dam and have the sul’dam ask “Why have you spared my life?” And Egwene reply, “Had I had any intention harming you I would never have been able to touch the flaming collar.” “Instead I have helped you to find your proper place as Damane. Thank you for teaching me those lessons so well.”

19 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

But the real answer is that the show writers simply don't particularly know/care about the lore, IMO. Egwene being able to use the a'dam on her sul'dam with an intent to kill, Siuan being able to attack Lan with the Power, the absence of the two Halves, the lack of relevance of the Dragon Reborn, all points to that.

 

Yeah, I get that dividing the OP into male and female halves might not be considered PC in todays world, but without the divide how does the taint even make sense?  Like it or not the presence of Siadar and Siadin are essential to the story. 

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Notes while watching:

 

- Pointless cold open.  All it seemed to do is humanize a forsaken and make him a more sympathetic character

 Well why not humanize the villains? Just because its once again the 20’s it doesn’t mean we need to return to vaudeville standards, though if mustache twirling villains are your thing then I might recommend a charming 1999 Canadian set piece staring Brendon Frazier. Humanized villains, much like flawed heroes, are just more interesting. Besides, RJ took the time to give the Forsaken more complex motivations for joining The Shadow than just, money, power, rule the world so I would actually like to see the show play up those motivations more. 
 

Seriously, if you can’t handle villains any more complex than this then maybe you need to rethink your entertainment choices 😆

6 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Well okay just one that jumps out in the last 2 episodes for me is that Rand made a deal with Lanfear that directly caused the deaths of many people (at least a dozen in front of the gate) That would have been devastating for him in the books at this point of his development. And at this point he could not appear to give a single care about those innocents he caused to be killed.

Right? Especially considering that some of those innocents were surely women. Book Rand had a HUGE problem with causing the death of any woman, let alone an innocent one. 

7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

on the other hand, it was a very emotional moment, and perhaps the whitecloaks now will come across as something more than closeminded morons. maybe the trial on perrin will have some actual weight behind it.

I, for one, am looking forward to perrin pleading guilty and declaring himself ready to face whatever punishment borhnald decides, with bornhald then deciding to give him another chance.

Very true, that would be quite consistent with what we’ve seen of this version of Dain. What would not be consistent with this version of Dain would be withholding his troops and refusing to defend The Two River so I’m really wondering how Perrin’s return to The Two Rivers is going to play out. Granted we don’t really know this version of Dain all that well yet, his civil conversation with “Two Rivers” and the fact that he has earned the ire of Valda seem to be framing him as a good person. 

28 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Dain got a report from the biased Byar about the battle at Falme that claimed Bornhald senior.

Whatever, dude. The point is that book Dain was jumping to conclusions and acting on assumptions while show Dain is an eyewitness to his father’s murder. This makes a huge difference in Dain’s characterization. 

The more I think about it the more I realize how poorly the show has handled Perrin and the Whitecloaks. In the books Perrin killed some whitecloaks in tEotW in self defense and later Dain sees Perrin in the general vicinity of where his father dies and just assumes he is somehow responsible (because book Dain is a belligerent idiot). In this version Perrin straight up murderers the dude, because even if you kill a man for killing your dog it’s still murder, and a mild mannered and rational Dain is reasonably upset. 
 

Now let’s just look at who Perrin murdered. Had it been a guy like Valda I suppose we could let it slide but remember that one of Geofram’s defining qualities in the books was that he was a decent man despite being a whitecloak, and this is doubly so in the show as he wasn’t even the one who interrogated Perrin and Egwene. In fact last we saw him before this scene he was bravely shoring up his men to defend the people of Falme against an invading force despite overwhelming odds because it was the right thing to do. Next he rescues an ally who is being savaged by a wild animal. Geoffram totally did not deserve what he got, in fact the man should have shown up when Mat blew the damned horn, and its hard to feel good about what Perrin did to him. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’m team Dain on this one.   

So wow!!! Over all I was very, very pleasantly surprised an I am finally starting to feel like I can really get on board with this show. None the less there were some major missteps IMOH but I’ll start with the good:

1. Heroes of the horn, loved pretty much everything about them. Loved how they appeared, loved that Uno and Steppin were among them, loved that Brigitte got a brief cameo, most of all loved that Mat is indeed the son of battles and Ishy’s tea can go suck it! 

2. Mat’s creative use of the dagger. In the books he did briefly regain the dagger and used it as his primary weapon at Falme. I’m guessing this was done so the they can forgo having to detach him from it once again. I also like how it foreshadows his ashandrei, at least I hope it’s foreshadowing and it doesn’t just become the ashandrei. 
 

3. Rand meets Elayne and gets noticed by Avi. For a hot minute I thought they were going to forgo Rand’s polygamy and just keep Egwene as his love interest. In fact, I though they were arranging to hook the others up with other character, Mat + Min, Perrin + Avi respectively (the latter pairing has been weird as it is, did the two of them ever even meet in the books?) but nope, looks like they are going all in on Rand’s trio, good for him!

4. Lan V Seanchan Bash at the Beach! For the first time I think I saw an inkling of book Lan!! It doesn’t quite erase that whole, “It’s nice to see you too” BS but it did make it fade a little.

5 Moghedian!!!  That actress is absolutely brilliant, love the creep factor!!  

And now the bad:

1. Completely robbed Nyneave of one of her most badass moments. I am honestly not loving this unconfident and incompetent Nyn. In the books she remained full of confidence despite her block, and the way she took charge and got things done at Falme is what made me fall in love with her as a character.  I mean she didn’t need the help of some random yellow sister, she didn’t need to be told by Elayne that they had tried her way, she just got mad and got even. I liked that Egwene got herself out of her predicament but still I think she could have gotten by with a little help from her friends . At least they could have let Nyn cause the explosion that allowed Eggy to free herself. 
 

2. Perrin actually did kill Geofram. Sure if someone did that to my dog I would probably react much the same way, but this scenario gives Dain some legitimate beef with Perrin. I mean this version of Dain is already leaps and bounds more likable than the book version, but now it’s hard not to side with him in this dispute. 
 

3. Lackluster Rand v Ishy battle. Sure I get that this version of Ishy is more of a battle of wits guy but at least let him jam his staff into Rands side. Perhaps in this case it could have been a sneaky act of betrayal as opposed to a hard fought battle, but I needed a bit more of a struggle between them and I’m not sold on Rand’s wound being caused by the dagger. They better have a good payoff in store.

4. Padin Fain still an active servant of The Shadow as opposed to an independent agent vowing revenge against the DO himself. Didn’t love that he was able to give up the dagger so easily. Perhaps now that he’s given up the dagger he will begin to realize the hold it has on him. Still, in this scenario why did he kill the Fade?

and those are my initial thoughts. 

*****WARNING There will be book spoilers in this post*****
 

The one thing I really hated about this episode and that I consider to be the biggest misstep of the series so far was Suian’s portrayal in this episode. Having Suian abandon her and Moiraine plan in favor of tower law is pure blasphemy!! I really loved the stick to your guns come hell or high water Suian from the books. Hell, if her own stilling wasn’t enough to stop her then surly Moiraine’s wouldn’t be either!  Perhaps the writers think introducing some conflict between Suian and Moiraine will make things more juicy and maybe being deposed and stilled even after siding with The Tower will add to her resolve to prop up Salidar.  Still I hate seeing Suian and Moiraine’s bond broken. I’m 

On 9/28/2023 at 8:43 PM, Finnssss22 said:

I highly doubt that Tea did anything other than put Mat to sleep. Everything after was Ishamael's doing in TAR.

One big con on Mat to set up yet another arrow aimed at breaking Rand.

Everything Ishy has done this season is to throw as many angles of pain and torment at Rand through his friends.

Just like everything Ishy did in season 1 was to manipulate Rand into breaking his Seal and fully setting him free.

Well of course that is what is going on. In fact, Mat’s entire portrayal in the show is just a clever ruse concocted by Ishy and it will ultimately be revealed that Mat is really a fun loving trixter who likes to release badgers in the town square and who has a perfectly nice and sober mother and a good and loyal father who is more an expert on horse flesh than human flesh 😉😆  

On 9/28/2023 at 9:21 PM, Agitel said:

Hmm...

 

I like and dislike them leaving with Lanfear. I see how it can work, but it still rankles a bit. Rand had a sort of truce with her at times... Feels like a change for Moiraine to be with a Forsaken. But maybe not. It's just more explicit and direct. She was aware of Asmodean.

 

And Lanfear and Ishy aren't exactly playing the same game. Some of their means may overlap a little.

 

BUT WHAT ABOUT MAT COME ON? WHERE'S MY BOY?

 

Even with these changes, I feel like this show could really use ten episodes a season for pacing and development purposes.

Well remember that even in the books Mat didn’t become particularly interesting until book 3. I’m really hoping the show will follow suit and Mat will really begin to shine in season 3.

On 9/28/2023 at 8:24 PM, Pandemonium said:

Can't say I love this episode, which is too bad after the momentum from last 3 episodes.  

Gitara's foretelling felt very underwhelming.  Usually the cold openings are great, but this one was rushed and.the acting felt odd.  Matt's hallucination scene was just really weird and I don't think provided that much insight into any character other than Ishamael.  

 

Bathanes darkfriend turn and sudden demise was way too abrupt.  Lanfear never attacked a city head on like that before in the books.  The whole thing where they said a forsaken is not strong enough to still a sister is ridiculous. 

 

Siuan seems so out of character.  They are doing way too much storytelling here.  Rand is so weak and he is heading into the final episode

 

Egwene and Perrin were best things about this episode.  

 

Yikes, I would say this is one of the worst episodes, but not as bad as season 1 episode 8.  

 

I have really tried to promote positivity this whole season and tried to get people involved watching the show.  I think this show still needs another 5-10 minutes per episode--- this was the most rushed episode for me.  

 

 

 

Remember that one of RJ’s themes in WOT was people having incomplete knowledge and yet still acting on what they have. I think the assertion that one Forsaken does not have the power to still an AS is an example of just that and illustrates that the AS of the Third Age just don’t understand the full scope of the one power. While they realize that the Forsaken are very powerful they are still underestimating their power and just how powerful a channeler can be. In essence when the say no one Forsaken could still an AS what they are really saying is that no one channeler could still an AS. I believe that in reality Moiraine was not stilled because Ishy did not want her stilled, he is up to something. 

On 9/28/2023 at 10:12 PM, Finnssss22 said:

3 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Sounds right. Seems like maybe Lanfear is going to get the Mesaana role. It will be interesting to see. 

Seems most likely though I doubt she will meet the same ultimate fate as Mesaana with will change things quite  a bit. It also makes me wonder is this will leave room for her captivity by the Fins and the emergence of Cyndane. Honestly I don’t think there will be any transmigrated Forsaken. Obviously with no Aginor and Balthamel there can be no Osan-gar and Aran-gar. I doubt Cyndane and Moriden will appear as they probably don’t want to change actors, and frankly I don’t want them to LOL

On 9/14/2023 at 11:20 PM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

"the boys" not "the twins" - presumably Samael, Demandred and Asmodean as hinted in the figurines in S1.  

I agree but there were eight Figurines so there’s room for one more. If the other girls are out I’m betting on Rhavin.  Aginor and Balthamel have already missed their big scene and Be’lal was always a throw away character. 

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

As with much else, WAFO.

 

I guess I should have expected that LOL

in Season 1 one of the Warders had some totems of the Forsaken and there were 8 of them so some people speculate that there will only be 8 Forsaken in the show. This, of course, is hardly ironclad as it’s possible he just didn’t have a complete set 🤷  At this point I suppose it’s all up in the air and the writers could potentially write any of them into future seasons whether they currently plan to or not (things change). However, as they have already missed their big scene I’m guessing Aginor and Balthamel are out. Honestly I think they could easily lose Semi but I hope Mesanna will reprise her role from the books. I would love to see Danelle introduced fairly early on and see how they handle her character. 

“Moghedien, Graendal  and the boys”

So says Lanfear in reference to the remaining Forsaken. There has been much speculation that there will be fewer Forsaken in the show than in the books so does this mean that Semirhage and Messanna are out?