Dude, this is the one post of mine you don't respond to with a sarcky meme? Wow, I suddenly feel so included 😄 This whole thing is sketching me out big time. I'm missing something, I know I am. Everytime it seems you guys are splitting into opposing camps it stops. Cause of course the wolves are never going to openly be a group. The only things I have concrete are DPR lied about Marsh's "slip", Ithi feels unhelpful, and I wish Dice hadn't claimed. And to be fair I'm not certain on two of those.

Though I suppose they would to stop him getting a red peek. Boo.

Wait. So if Dice was the hider, false claims cop then the mafia could have just wasted their Strongarm on an empty space, if they did not roleblock him? Have three players appeared grumpy today by any chance? It seems a bit complicated but lol.

But not the characters within it, and the whole point is about the Shadow influencing things. If they could just stand up and take over everything there would not be much of a story going on, imho. Elaida ties herself to the Andor line to help the Light, she takes over the Tower to help the Light, even all the nonsense about building a second higher Amyrlin's Tower is on some level about putting things the way they are meant to be, to help the Light. Making her just Alviarin's +1 at the party undermines all of that and makes Alviarin completely extraneous. It would be akin to making the Children of the Light just all be Darkfriends to make things easier to understand.

Another question: Tig and Nyn had diametrically opposite reactions to end of day. Tig thought Rand was scammy as could possibly be, Nyn thought Rand was totally consistent with being Town. Are these both valid opinions, and why has no one bothered either of them for their reasoning? Are they just flying under the radar or is that the whole fake, not fake claim thing is actually a pretense for all this antagonism? I kind of feel no one is going to answer this for multiple reasons but mostly as it has no easy answer if one at all. But it is bugging me so maybe someone can answer.

Wasn't a lot of your suspicion of Verb based on him avoiding voting for me? So if I was Town would that not lessen your suspicion of Verb?

Can I just ask, and this is a just question - I'm not Shad that can solve the game from only reading the D1 VC - but does anyone else get a strong emotional disconnect from Town and DPR in these two comments. Irritatingly I've had this pingpingpingpingpingping feeling before, but I don't remember if it was accurate. I think it was though....

Just pointing out Rand, the quote you had was talking about TOWNDice false claiming, but you have answered about MAFIADice false claiming.

Fatigue seems manageable, so I would just go for it. I wouldn't be surprised if Soul Veil found something so open to that as well. I think we should keep Nyra safe as long as she is so ickle. Question: must everything that has a name ending in "a" be female? Is it a law somewhere? Did we have a meeting at some point? Well, probably the Latin peoples did, or even PIE? I wonder how far back it goes...

Yeah, I just cannot be dealing with inconsistent players. They just ruin it for everyone else.

Just as well I don't have any personal feelings then. From your previous interactions with Rand, I was getting the feeling that you were supporting Dice as the Cop making a valid claim, and that Rand was being scummy in response. Does not the way that anyone looks at Rand's response switch diametrically if we assume Dice is mafia false claiming or actually the cop? Because Rand as mafia would know if Dice is false claiming or not, and would presumably be in on it. So you're saying that your interaction with Rand was regardless of whether Dice's claim was real or not? That seems difficult for me to process - surely that would have a huge impact on people's expectations? You have really upset my applecart of thoughts regarding this game just when I was getting it in order. So mean. Must be a wolf really, lol.

Obviously people died young and unexpectedly. But looking at average life expectancy can be misleading - as in a time of extremely high infant mortality, anyone surviving childhood was likely to live well past the mean age - due to mode, or er, median, or something, cannot be bother to look it up, lol. If everyone was dying in their early thirties, how would such a thing as the Triarii in the Roman army exist where a good third of the army was made up of veterans who I cannot find quickly a source on how old they were - I had thought 40 and above but taking a number off the top of my head is hardly much evidence. Something which is perhaps more telling is that a leading cause of death in Ancient Egypt were teeth abscesses as everyone had to eat bread, and Egyptians had not only grindstone grit to deal with by a high volume of fine particulate sand, which resulted in abnormally quick tooth wear. Ramses II was insane from the pain from his teeth and high on opiates for the last decades of his 92 years on this planet. I'm not saying any of this disproves what you say, but I think the picture is incredibly complex and not something that we modern people can understand, either in how fragile and disposable life was in those days as you point out, but also how tough those that survived it were.

This feels like an about face (though that could just be me) - or does this not affect your spat with Rand. If you think Dice is mafia, does that change your view on Rand's alignment?

Hope he recovers quickly. Re: your last point, I'm not going to promise something I cannot deliver. But I'll try to play nice 🙂

I'm processing a lot of information at the moment - not sure I really want to try and crunch it all down to one list at this point. Thanks for your feedback. Tbf, I'm not defending Verb, I'm a bit sketchy of the attacks on him, if you get the difference. Yes, he has passed Rand "bobbing his head in agreement" and I think Rand at that point was quoting or paraphrasing Nyn? Not sure. But tbf it was wolf!Verb that was using that tell to justify his sussing Seph iirc. The thing that is bothering me most at the moment is Tigraine. I don't get the anti-Rand argument. He's your son, for Pete's sake. (sorry, couldn't resist). But correct me if wrong - Rand should have picked up on Dice's hints. (I totally didn't, though not sure that carries much weight). Therefore he is scummy as get out. But this seems awful logic. If Town!Rand picked up the hints, he would have backed off, but he didn't. If wolf!Rand picked up the hints, he would have voted and suddenly been unreachable - killing the cop and having complete plausible deniability and WIFOM. Hanging about and arguing Dice isn't giving him enough to go on only seems compatible with Town!Rand who isn't getting the hints. Wolf!Rand deciding to not go for the cop kill in favour of some town cred (which according to Tig was actually the scummiest move ever, so hardly an effective gambit) seems really suboptimal play. But again we are getting to the point where I'm getting pinged by players an order of magnitude more than there are wolves. I would suck in a closed setup game. Or be in my element, lol. Yeah, probably not.

This is one of the things that bugs me about the Three Oaths - Jordan seems constantly confused about what they actually were. This means that for example if you go to Fandom, it repeatedly claims that there is a clause including the exemption of Darkfriends. This isn't true. Here is a direct quote of the Oaths that Moiraine swears, The show - according to Fandom at least - does not even include this exemption, and they are forbidden from using it as a weapon, except in defense. Which would explain why the Black Ajah was so much better at fighting, at least initially (I don't think a close inspection of the fight scenes probably would support this argument though). The thing is that as early as The Great Hunt, Sheriam is explaining that it does include Shadowspawn and Darkfriends, but only in paraphrasing, not direct quotes. Now I get Sheriam is Black Ajah, but it seems beyond credulity that she would go about lying about factual things like this novices when she so easily could be caught out. It seems to be inherent that Shadowspawn can be interpreted as "and Darkfriends" showing how plastic the Oaths are and how little can really be gained from arguing about their wording.

Thank you for your explanation, very kind and town-like of you. Though if course everything as always is subject to WIFOM. And just to clarify - if we assume that you are the mafia RB - just for the sake of the example - you claiming cop with 2 minutes left of the day ensured that a town player was eliminated, and gave you two nights to use your PR as even if the real cop CC's the next day they will be eliminated first? If following standard procedure? I just want to get the benefits of false claims clear in my head, not insinuating anything.

@Darthe can I ask if your wonderful scenes are indicative of gameplay? As in it really seems like in your story someone got NKd and then revived by the Doc. Can we take this as what happened or could it be due to hider or bpv?

So you are saying that if Dice is the wolfiest wolf of all time or lock clear town that is irrelevant? I think even if we are not going to eliminate him it still feels pretty important to resolve this issue (if possible) to help solve. Something about your logic is just setting me on edge. Cannot put a finger on it. Can I ask why did you bring up we should all post if I were cop, doctor etc., just to drop it again without further mention. Did DPR think it was a bad move? Too obvious? Something doesn't feel right. Did anyone else notice that in the night Turin pops up to set up an attack on Verb and then DPR takes over. Like a tag team. After a bit Turin comes back into the thread and walks back his pro-Dice arguments. Am I just paranoid?

Sure let's try 2.

Nonsense

No I meant the sisters Vandene and Adeleas, specifcally - I'm rubbish with names so I had to look them up. From The Path of Daggers, Here we can see that it is the laws of the Tower that are specific in deciding what constitutes a weapon or the limitations of use of the Power. This text also makes it difficult to see how Elaida could use the Power to punish Egwene, at least without breaking the law. But it is clear that Sisters can put people to the Question, with Power-fueled violence that is far more limited by in its scope by Tower law than the Three Oaths. It seems fairly clear to me that questioning and punishing, in the terms of the Aes Sedai, don't constitute weapons. It is entirely consistent that a legal execution would also not come under this category. "Use as a weapon" is a phrase that is nearly meaningless without context. It is like the Roman concept of violence. Caesar's last words were reportedly "What is this? Violence against Caesar?" (not "Et tu, Brutus?"). Caesar was indignant as though Roman society was to our language inherently violent - to the Romans, such things as gladiatorial games, warfare, executions, etc., were not violence, they were morally and socially sanctioned actions. Illegally stabbing someone in Rome (where all weapons were banned, except for the Praetorians) was a shocking and, moreover, rude act Caesar considered himself above.

It is also worth pointing out that civilisation is further complicated by the patriarchy. And I'm not meaning that all men are mean and horrible, but the inheritence of property through the male line. The more advanced your civilisation, the more property you have. In a patriarchal inherentence model, female fidelity becomes incredibly important to ensure property remains in the "right" hands. Laws were introduced to protect property, not liberty, I believe is the accepted truth in sociology. When we are looking at customs in ancient civilisations we are generally looking at the upper classes, not the peasantry or the lowest social orders. And I have certainly never seen anything to suggest that poor, ill-educated people in any age don't rut like bunnies. It is definitely an interesting theory, but I think it would be difficult to estimate the impact of STDs in a world with no antibiotics, no germ theory, no access to clean water etc etc. Anyone surviving childhood is going to be as tough as nails.

Can anyone point out the difference to me between "I don't want to be modkilled" Dice's answer and "I got answer from the mod" Dice's answer? I'm so dumb they look exactly the same to me.

This seems a bit sus (you can follow the quote to see full context). Dice was leading 5/4. Then Rand votes DPR (so now 4/4) then Verb UNVOTES as above in Dice's commentary. So the trains aren't tied and it had nothing to do with Verb. We're not talking about Zander here so why the issue basic arithmetic that is being used to throw shade on Verb?