The only thing we can go by in the story is the explanation given by Moiraine in EotW.  It's certainly possible that she was mistaken, but she is nevertheless clear in that explanation.

According to the history she related, Mashadar was an evil that was created by men in their hatred of the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars.  It attacks Shadowspawn even more vigorously than any other living things, which is why the trollocs chasing the Emond's Fielders had to be driven into Shadar Logoth.  It also couldn't leave the city until Fain enabled it to much later.

It would be odd for this preference in victims to have developed before even Aginor created them.  If he knew about it, it would still have been something new for him.  Not ancient.

It could be that, like Machin Shin, Mashadar was born of the Taint.  But its antagonism to Shadowspawn and its being tied to Shadar Logoth both strongly imply that Moiraine was right about when and why it was created.  And again, the Taint was brand new for the just-released Forsaken.  They had either not seen any of this until just before they were trapped, or not until after they were released.

There are a number of things (like a'dams or the Warder Bond) that are old to the people living at the end of the Third Age, but which the Forsaken have never heard of.  I believe Mashadar is another one.

On 3/21/2024 at 11:22 AM, Bugglesley said:

A neato thing I just think I realized, I've always kind of wondered why 13? Shouldn't it depend on the strength of the channellers? And I think now the answer is that the limiting factor is the Myrddraal, they're made to a template and can only "channel" so much of the TP, and the weird TP circle rules say you need a 1:1 ratio. I wonder if Moridin with Callendor could turn someone on his own, weaving both together with enough strength.

RJ introduced a number of rules into the mechanics of the One Power that are almost geometric in their nature.  For most things, the comparative strength of channelers matters.  But when you get to 13, the "geometry" outweighs that.

A circle of the thirteen weakest female channelers can shield the strongest possible male channeler, in effect without breaking a sweat.  It takes fewer channelers to maintain a shield once formed than to form it in the first place, but the same kind of "geometry" still comes into play.  Six can maintain a shield (as long as they are doing so actively, rather than tying it off) due to the way they are spaced around the shield because they can react as a group to counter anything the victim attempts.

So thirteen is the number for turning because that's the number where strength in the Power no longer matters.

Logain was unable to prevent being shielded when he was captured because his strength in the Power was irrelevant.  He resists turning not because of his strength in the Power, but because of his strength of will.

On 5/2/2024 at 12:12 AM, Samt said:

Why would they wait for Rand and friends to get there if they could have tracked Someshta there at any time?

Because they weren't "out" yet.

Except for Ishamael, all the Forsaken were still trapped in the Bore until the Seals started failing - extremely recently in the story.  As far as why they couldn't have just tracked Someshta?  It's because (by design) he wasn't actually in the world unless and until someone's need called him.

This was the first time since any of the Forsaken got out that the Green Man was touching the world in a way that made him detectable to them.

Remember that Mashadar was created more than a thousand years AFTER the Forsaken were trapped.  It would have been a new thing to them, not something ancient.  Only the things at the Eye would have been ancient to them.

18 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Is that so? I seem to remember when Pevara and co. are rumbled with their secret meetings, one of the Aes Sedai says something along the lines of "Is not obvious what they are doing?" and then grabs the Rod, retakes the oath and then declares not to be a Darkfriend. In my head, she did this while everyone was still gawking at her. I suppose someone could have been in the process of channeling, but I kind of remember it differently than that. 

 

I'd look it up if I could think of what book it was in.

No, you're right.  My mistake.

The scene you're referring to takes place in Path of Daggers, chapter 26 "The Extra Bit."

A few different Sisters channel into the Oath Rod and re-swear the oath not to lie, to prove that they are telling the truth.  So far as I know, it's the only place we see that.  But others in the same scene are done as in the Raising ceremony, with one activating the Rod, and another swearing.

It appears that it's more tradition and ritual, rather than necessity.

---

I was looking for that scene before I posted, but couldn't remember where it was.  I should have waited. 😌

On 4/21/2024 at 12:03 AM, Taimandred said:

*** Spoiler Alert ***

The small three (Rand, Mat & Perrin being the big), were the first to be tasked with hunting dark sisters. This even led to Egwene's capture, something she really hated.  Robert Jordan constantly reminds us how much Egwene hated being damane. 

 

So why don't these three think about asking Moghedien to point out who is black ajah in the tower? In fact, why does everyone in Salidar, including Siuan Sanche herself, just forget about them completely? I understand they have a lot on their plate, but their little disagreement with the White Tower pales in comparison to the fight to save time itself.

 

I think you've got the timing a bit wrong.

What leads to Egwene's capture is her concern over Rand's wellbeing - played upon by Liandrin.  The Girls don't even know the Black Ajah exists at that time.  They aren't set to hunt them until they get back to the White Tower following her rescue and the Battle of Falme.

None of the Little Tower actually "forget about" the possibility of the Black Ajah either back in Tar Valon or with them in Salidar.  Rather, they actively avoid talking about them.  Partly because the possibility terrifies them completely.

Those are not the same thing.

If she could have freed herself with the Oath Rod, she could have done so as soon as she got her hands on it.  She wouldn't have needed to escape in order to use it.  But she couldn't.

As was already said, she remained bound by it not to channel without permission.  But even if she could, she still needed someone else to channel into the Rod in order to release her.

I believe that in every example seem in the books, the person swearing an oath is never the same person who is channeling Spirit into it.  It always takes two channelers - one to activate the Rod, and another to swear the oath while touching it.

Even with the Rod, she couldn't release herself.  She needed another channeler.

On 4/21/2024 at 12:22 AM, Taimandred said:

Elayne was born to rule. She has been taught to lead from the cradle. But whenever she is with Egwene or Nynaeve she suddenly becomes the village girl and allows the others to take lead while sticks her nose in the air.

It's not just that she has been taught to lead.  She has been taught to recognize who has the right to lead in any particular situation.

That means that before she left Caemlyn, she knew to follow her mother, or Gareth Bryne, or Elaida, depending on the circumstances.  When she got to Tar Valon, she knew to follow the Amyrlin, or any other full Aes Sedai.  On the road with Egwene and Nynaeve, she could lead or follow as the need arose, but (mostly) always with diplomacy.

Elayne almost instinctively understood the chain of command, and that chaos was the result if it was ignored.

11 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Iron-fisted tyrant is a leadership style, true.  And that might be the only way to go when herding trollocs, but I believe the people of Emond's Field could be directed without getting kicked in the teeth just because they choose to think through a situation rather than blindly following their leader's first directive.

 

In fact, I believe Perrin (with Faile's help) did a much better job leading these same stubborn people without having to step on throats.

Also bear in mind that a big part of the reason Nynaeve has the issues she does is because she has had to spend her entire tenure as Wisdom trying to get people to remember her position, not her age.  She looks forward to her first wrinkles and gray hair so she will no longer be treated as too young for the responsibility.

She is extremely sensitive about having her authority respected, even more so with people who she could spank until very recently.  Rand seems to be the only one of the youngsters she doesn't act this way with at all, but Perrin is a close second.  Mostly because she always saw Perrin as the well-behaved one.

Mat got the short end of it because she always saw him as a slacker and scoundrel.  Ironically, she had the same problem recognizing him as a responsible(ish) grownup with his own authority that she had faced herself.  But it's Egwene who sets her off the most because she had been her apprentice.  Having the same rank as Accepted was difficult to - well - accept.

---

Perrin (with Faile) was better able to handle the stubborn folk because once he started being Ta'veren with them, they decided themselves that he was the boss.  No braid-tugging necessary.

12 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

It having a small barred window high on the wall doesn't mean they were above ground...basements can have windows.

 

But beyond that...'no other explanations'?  Superstrength has been given as one.  Luck is another (the door is not as barred as Dana thought it was), or she was just wrong about how strong it was.  Or a secret someone opening it from the outside. Most non-readers thought right off it was superstrength, not channeling at all.

Yes, basements can have windows.  But they weren't in a basement.  The storage room was at the end of a hall that led directly off the common room of the inn.  There weren't any stairs on the way.  And there were no upper floors above them, as the roof leaked directly into the room.

Also, the window wasn't particularly high in the wall, any more than you expect in a storage room.  Rand and Mat were able to put their hands on it at the same time, as they tried to open it.  Without needing to climb up on anything.  And when they left, they didn't have to climb up to get out.  They just stepped through onto the ground.

Incidentally, we don't know that anyone inside the building was "blasted."  The wooden door was knocked off its hinges, but they never looked in the hall after the lightning strike.  Only the men outside are specifically said to have been hit.  We also know that someone inside the building came to the hole and shook their fist as they got away.  Someone who knew about them.  Could have been Gode, could have been one of the guards, we don't know.

And yes, the show intended there to be no other explanation for Rand breaking down the door.  Even if it were "superstrength" it still meant channeling - since he didn't have super strength otherwise.

3 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

 

Yes...the highest part of the building gets hit by lightning...not the basement. And the lightning did blast Gode and the guards in the hallway as well as the guards in the courtyard -- without killing Rand.  It was pretty clear.

They weren't in a basement.  They were in a ground-floor storage room.  With a barred window they could see out of.

And no, in the real world lightning didn't just strike the highest parts of buildings.  Especially if a lower part of the building was a better conductor than the highest part.  Like a stone wall rather than a wooden roof.  In which case lightning would frequently strike near the top of the wall. 

Near where a barred window would be in a ground-floor exterior storage room.

As a recent example, witnesses say this damage was caused by a lightning strike.  Lightning hit near the top of the exterior masonry wall, not the peak of the wooden roof:

Yes, it was clear to readers that something out of the ordinary saved their bacon.  But if that reader didn't already know Rand could channel (say, if it was their first read-through) it wasn't blatant.  Readers were intended to put the pieces together as the story progressed, but this was no more of a dead giveaway than Bela running all night, or the boom on the Spray whacking a Trolloc.

Breaking down the door at the Four Kings doesn't really have any alternative explanation.

3 hours ago, expat said:

The major reason throughout the series that Nyn and Egwene were possible Dragon candidates were because they were so strong in the One Power.  The fact that one of the possible male Dragons could channel was just supposed to be a "who cares" seems a little unbelievable.  

The show had not remotely made that clear by the time of this episode.  All Moiraine had said to anyone was "one of you is the Dragon Reborn."  She had not told anyone what she based that on, or what the Prophecies required.  In fact, by the time Rand told her it was him (not the other way around) she STILL hadn't.  At no point in Season 1 did she tell any of the Two Rivers folk that channeling was necessary.  Even if it had been made clear, there was no reason by this point to believe the show wouldn't make them all able to channel.

No one said it would be a "who cares" moment.  Just that the show had not given anyone a reason to think it was any kind of giveaway.

If a woman could be the Dragon, the fact that a man could channel doesn't mean anything except that a man could channel.

3 hours ago, expat said:

Story Rand and Mat can believe anything the author wants them to believe, but natural lightning doesn't knock down stone walls in the middle of a building.

What stone walls were knocked down in the middle of a building?

The wall that was hit by the lightning bolt was an exterior wall with a window in it.  A window they could see had bars they couldn't get through.  Gode and his henchmen were on the other side of a simple wooden door that had no lock.  A door they were forcing their way through as the lightning hit.  No interior stone wall was "knocked down."

And until the invention of the lightning rod, buildings got hit by lightning quite frequently.

11 hours ago, expat said:

It was subtle enough that every watcher didn't immediately conclude that the show identified Rand as the Dragon.  How many posts on this site continued to argue about the possibility of someone other than Rand was the Dragon even after this episode?

Non-readers didn't immediately conclude Rand was the Dragon Reborn because "a man who could channel" was never identifed in the show as being any kind of deciding factor.  People on this site, who knew that the books absolutely required it were still debating what the show would do because the show was still dicking around with the Big Mystery ™ and refusing to make that clear.

But that has nothing to do with whether or not this was subtle.  It wasn't.  Nor was it supposed to be.  It was supposed to have no other possible explanation.

As opposed to the equivalent book scene, with the lightning.  Which occurred during a thunderstorm.  A storm that was the reason they accepted the storeroom as a place to spend the night, rather than sleeping in the stable.  As written in the book, the conclusion by both Mat and Rand was that they had gotten lucky, not that Rand had channeled.

In the books, neither Rand nor Mat figured out that Rand had channeled on their trip until after the Eye.  In the show, everyone figured out that Rand channeled to get away from the darkfriend who knew how to use a sword better than he did.

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

Interestingly she might still have been head of the Ajah.  At the very least a sitter as one of the Green's positions is absent in episode 6.

Yes, in New Spring (where we hear of her and her Warders) she heads the Green Ajah.  I don't believe we hear that she is also a Sitter.  Which would make sense, since it would be unlikely for a Sitter to be chosen to leave the Tower on a dangerous, lengthy, open-ended mission by the Amyrlin.

In the show, she is both Captain General and Sitter - hence the single vacant seat when we first see the Hall convene.  It wouldn't be out of the ordinary at all for a Sitter to maintain her position for the 20 years between the events.

22 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

S1 was a very good indication of more screen time to minor or made up characters (Stepin) at the expense of major will continue. And how major events played out - who did what ( destruction of Trolloc army). 
 

There is no indication that Rafe will change his strategy from S1. Use the books as a framework while the story is his. 

I don't disagree with your basic point, but want to clarify one thing:

Stepin was not made up - though he was minor.

Karene Nagashi was actually the Captain General of the Green Ajah, and had two Warders - of whom Stepin was one (the other was named Karile).  The problem is that she was the head of the Greens when Moiraine first started searching for the Dragon Reborn.  And she was murdered by the Black Ajah along with the rest of Tamra Ospenya's "searchers."  Presumably, her Warders dies at the same time.

Twenty years before the events in the TV show.

4 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

My AMOL edition re Bela (Kindle, Page 849):

 

  Hide contents

Ahead, a large force of Trollocs cut him off.  Olver turned back the other way, but others approached from that direction, too.  Olver cried out, turning Bela again, but a thick black Trolloc arrow hit her in the flank.  She screamed and stumbled, then dropped.

Olver tumbled free.  Hitting the ground knocked the air from his lungs and made him see a flash of light.  He forced himself to his hands and knees.

The horn must reach Matrim Cauthon...

Olver grabbed the Horn, and found that he was weeping.  "I'm sorry," he said to Bela.  "You were a good horse.  You ran like Wind couldn't have.  I'm sorry"

She whinnied softly and drew a final breath, then died.

 

And the discrepancy would be retconned as yet another example of an "unreliable narrator."

That's what Olver thought happened, but he couldn't stick around to make sure.  Being slightly busy trying not to die at the time.

Bear in mind that he was wrong about the absolute necessity of getting the Horn to Mat, as well.

9 hours ago, DojoToad said:

That would explain why Goji is not in the Companion.  Well don't I feel three kinds of stupid...  I misread @Andra's post.

🤪

I suppose I could have been more clear about who I was talking about.  By, for instance, properly referring to a user name.

😊

7 hours ago, Kalessin said:

Well, from where I am sitting, it struck me that it resembled the dreamworld where Baalzamon dragged the three boys in EOTW. It is Baalzamon's dreamworld, like that dream Rand has of him on the way to Falme, where his burn marks are still on the chair when Rand wakes up.

 

Then later, in TDR, it struck me that Baalzamon may have made that dreamworld, but because Rand is so  much stronger in the Power and is Ta'veren into the bargain, Rand is imposing whatever happens in that dreamworld, on everyone else in the vicinity. Combine that with the sudden intrusion of the Heroes of the Horn, and naturally everybody notices him, whether they want to or not.

I suspect that Falme exhibited something specific about the nature of the Horn and what it does.

We know the Heroes all live in the World of Dreams awaiting rebirth or being called up.  It's also implied that the Heroes aren't touched by weapons or channeling when they appear, and can do things (like "riding down clouds") that don't happen in the waking world.  But they very much do affect things themselves.

It would make sense if the Horn projects a portion of Tel'aran'rhiod into the waking world, and that Ba'alzamon piggybacked onto that projection to fight Rand in the sky.  Note that he doesn't show up until after the Horn is sounded.

As far as Rand and Ba'alzamon's battle in Tear, it's just something of the nature of TAR - which we learn a lot more about later.  We know that Ishy is adept at manipulating the Dream.  Almost certainly more adept than any other male Forsaken.  We also know that Rand eventually becomes moderately adept at it (never as adept as Perrin becomes) mostly by sheer willpower.

All of the weirdness we see in their battle happens inside the Dream, not in the waking world.

Re: Bela.

Well that would make sense.  She was Tam's horse, after all.  And he was there.

Please keep in mind again that Goji is only into book 2.  There isn't a whole lot told to the readers yet about Moiraine's background except her family name and nationality.  There's nothing yet to say that she's any more than a distant relation to any nobles.

11 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

I wondered if the off smell related to the Gray Men as we see them soon after in Tar Valon - but it makes more sense to be Darkhounds considering the paw print and Rand killing hem near that location. But I thought the Darkhounds smelt like Sulfur? So I assumed the "wrongness" to be one of the Gray Men. 

It's a different kind of "wrongness."  Or at least, it's a combination of the two.

The Gray Men smell wrong, but the Darkhounds include the sulphur/burnt hair smell as well as the wrongness.  Also, I believe the smell of Darkhounds having passed that way remains long enough for him to smell, then dissipates.  While the stench of the Gray Men only exists when they're nearby.

I suspect that, to Perrin, the wrongness is associated with any Shadowspawn, while the sulphur/burnt hair smell is specific to the Darkhounds.  Either that, or there's a different smell associated with each kind of Shadowspawn, and he was smelling both at the same time, since both were around.

It's almost certain that both Darkhounds and Gray Men were on Rand's trail as soon as he left the mountains, and eventually got after Moiraine and Perrin once they got to Illian.  Apparently sent by two different Forsaken.

7 hours ago, Remodel said:

You're right.  I found some interviews by RJ where he confirms your assertion.  In my mind I still remember Suian saying she was Ta'avern, but I probably miss read.  It's a long entertaining story after all.

 

I will say Egwene is so tightly, strongly woven into the pattern that she is propelled further than her youth would not normally have allowed.  Quote from Moiraine to Egwene and Nynaeve in The Eye of the World chapter 43 pp. 604 "You are part of the Pattern, too, both of you, in some fashion. Perhaps not ta'veren--perhaps--but strong even so. ... And no doubt by this time the Fades know it, too.  And Ba'alzamon."   It appears she was fated to her death which to me read like a release for her; she was finally free.

Several characters jokingly ask Egwene "are you sure you're not Ta'veren too?" over the course of the books.  It doesn't mean she actually was, just that her story was remarkable enough that people would talk about it.

4 hours ago, SilentRoamer said:

Hello knowledgeable WoT readers,

 

My re-read continues and now I am pushing through TDR. Really enjoyed the pacing so far in this book. 

Anyway - Rand has just gone AWOL from the Mountains of Mist after making his earthquake, we get a very short POV chapter for Rand (sandwiched between two Perrin PoV's) where Rand talks about being hunted by dogs and becoming the hunter. Its also pretty clear Rand is just Balefiring these dogs like an absolute boss. 

Its not explicitly stated they are Darkhounds but they are described as muscular with large jaws and standing at least waist high. 

Are these the first appearance of Darkhounds we see?

 

That appears to be the first time we actually see them.  But not the first time we see evidence of them.

Perrin sees a pawprint in stone, and smells something like a hair burned on hot metal.  Which dissipates immediately.  He recognizes the smell as being "wrong" and wonders if it was a trace of Rand and his madness.

I believe that happens before Rand sees any dogs.  Which I think happened in a dream rather than in real life regardless.  I wouldn't be surprised if both things happen on the same day.

6 hours ago, Nik said:

Rand had 2 + the one in the Blight, Perrin had 1. We didn't see anyone else's dreams. I agree it would have been hard to include more with the time and scope they had.

Perrin had the one where the wolf was eating Laila's corpse.  Supposedly, all three shared the dream with the dead bats.  I don't remember what Rand dreamed himself prior to the Blight.

I think Mat's hallucination of vomiting up darkness might count, except that it would have been produced by the dagger rather than Ba'alzamon.

15 hours ago, Harldin said:

Yes that does sound very plausible, haven't seen the shot you are referring to. Also we don't know how Rafe is planning to do the change of actor, will it be, just carry on as if nothings happened or could they fold Mats change of appearance into the storyline, make him look totally unrecognisable using the dagger then heal him, Donal looks enough like Barney to pull it off. 

I suspect that's how they will play it.

The Healing process in the book was certainly traumatic enough that the show could turn it into something that permanently alters his appearance.

After which point everyone who knows him will say something like "Mat, is that you?" when they see him again.

Kind of the way the Wachowskis worked in the replacement of the Oracle in the Matrix sequels.

2 hours ago, JyP said:

As you will read later in the series, Moiraine is the archetypal Blue Ajah Aes Sedai : yes her life is dedicated to fight the Shadow and more, but it is not tempered by empathy. And Lan would be the same, he is very much the archetypal silent badass.

 

So yes, they are not accustomed to deal with teenagers (what with being on the road since 20 years) - and fail to take basic empathic approach to the "sheepherders". Both of them were born into high nobility and never interacted casually even with their own family. And they are from very different countries than the Two Rivers.

 

It's not that Robert Jordan failed to create the ultimate sorceress with Moiraine : he designed her exactly as needed so they would be wary, but with very good reasons. Exactly as intended.

And of the two of them, it's actually "Stone Face" Lan who treats the youngsters in the most personable way.  The weapon training is a big aspect of it, even as it helps move them beyond being the youngsters they started out as.