I unintentionally opened a can of worms with my comments, so let me reiterate that I recognize that BDSM requires consent, that BDSM without consent is abuse, and that the sul'dahm/damane dynamic is not actually BDSM despite the show using aspects that I personally associated with that kink in its depiction of damane training.

30 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

It's abuse without consent

Agreed.

Technically speaking, though, the practice of BDSM itself doesn't explicitly require consent, as a person can/could be unwillingly dominated by another person even if/though it's generally expected for consent (consensual non-consent) to be given by the Sub and respected by the Dom.

9 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

so what? carrot and stick is a component of every social interaction. your boss will give you promotions for good behavior and demotions for bad behavior, it does not mean you are in a bdsm relation with your boss. you may slap your dog for peeing on the floor, but it does not make you in a bdsm relatioinship with your dog.

in the past, corporal punishment for misbehaving kids were commonplace, both in the faily and in school. it does not mean every parent had a bdsm relationship with his children, every teacher with his students.

carrot and stick is simply an attempt to influence behavior, and violence is simply a bigger stick - one that our modern western society mostly tries to avoid, but that has been prevalent in many other uses.

 

ever since fifty shades has brought that kink to the general public, there's people who see it everywhere. no. just because someone is slapping someone else, it doesn't have to have something to do with bdsm. just because someone is trying to coerce someone else into changing behavior, it doesn't have to have something to do with bdsm. please. stop. seeing. it. everywhere!

There's are very specific ways that Doms offer their Subs 'the carrot and stick' that directly match Renna's actions.

3 minutes ago, Mailman said:

BDSM requires consent

No, it doesn't.

Even though people have been focusing on the sexual component of BDSM as a way to deny that what we saw in any way resembles that lifestyle/kink, I was and remain focused on the 'carrot and stick' aspects of said lifestyle/kink which are very much present and used in conjunction with the outright and unbridled physical violence that was characteristic of the way that Masters and/or Overseers treated slaves historically.

To use a few specific examples of how what we saw fits into BDSM, you have, in no particular order, 1) the 'I see no reason not to let you keep your name', 2) the cajoling/caressing, and 3) the closing 'good girl' remark

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

There is nothing sexual about the Sul’Dam/Damane relationships depicted in the show. 

BDSM doesn't always have a sexual component to it.

50 minutes ago, Mailman said:

in the books The Damane are treated as prized livestock. They are wild animals that cannot be trusted and are collared for use

And in the show, they're treated like slaves, both of the historical variety and of the BDSM variety.

4 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I don’t know much about BDSM but isn’t is sexual in nature?  I don’t get that at all from the Sul’dam and Damane.  
 

I think the book analogy is that of a wild animal that needs to be broken.

There is generally a sexual component to the Dom/Sub dynamic, yes, but unless a Sub is already subconsciously predisposed to being submissive, there's going to be a period where the Dom has to use both 'the carrot and the stick' (sometimes the stick more than the carrot), which is what was happening here, although, as noted, the Dom/Sub undertones were mixed with the casual cruelty historically imposed upon slaves by their Masters and/or their Masters' Overseers.

7 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

So it leaned into the books? 🤔🤪

Because I didn't care for the books, I don't actually remember that much about them, but the Dom/Sub kink is different from the owner and pet dynamic that comments from others had indicated was present in the books.

7 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

There was that interaction she had with Verin about investigating the supposed "attack" on the girls "caravan" heading to Caemlyn.

I don't remember anything from that conversation indicating that Liandrin was supposed to be heading to Caemlyn.

The show has really leaned super hard into BDSM Dom/Sub territory with its depiction of the sul'dam/damane interaction, but also mixed in historical Master/Slave cruelty and dehumanization elements, which is both fascinating and horrifying.

Re: Liandrin, I don't remember her telling Verin that she was going to go to Caemlyn.

10 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I don't know that we have any real confirmation from Rafe that Season 3 is explicitly and wholly book 4.

24 minutes ago, Irvyne said:

I think the problem is, he really hasn't been given a whole lot to do yet in this show, which as the main character is a bit of a problem

Josha's Rand isn't the main/Lead character.

That honor/distinction was given (and has still been given, despite claims to the contrary that such was only the case for Season 1)  to Rosamund Pike's Moiraine.

44 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

The idea of gendered souls is very problematic to Rafe's worldview, which he has explicitly stated he is intentional crafting his version of this story around.  Of course we won't see a gendered One Power (and no, briefly mentioning it in some short that isn't part of the main show absolutely does not count - they've dropped the ball big time with Saidin/Saidar); of course souls aren't gendered; of course the Dragon Reborn has sometimes been a man and sometimes been a woman.  It is patently obvious that Rafe has fundamental disagreements between his modern worldview versus Jordan's classical feminism.  Whether or not any given viewer appreciates that is up to them so I'm not arguing here that it is a good thing or a bad thing, just that it is obvious and should not be surprising.

Exactly.

One of the very first things that Rafe confirmed about the TV series, in terms of adaptational choices, was a specific and deliberate change to the foundational and metaphysical lore of Robert Jordan's world in order to decouple the idea of binary gender from the concept of reincarnation, thereby allowing him and his writers to treat the question of "who is the Dragon Reborn" not as a misdirectional storytelling tactic (which some people now/still view it as), but as a legitimate unknown within the universe of the show, even if they never actually intended to give a different answer to said question than the one given in the books (Rand).

22 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

there is not a single thing so far that has not matched the books

1. Lews Therin Telemon being explicitly and publicly known as the Dragon Reborn

2. Lews Therin Telemon's soul having been reborn as a woman (possibly more than one woman)

3. Jain Farstrider being a woman

4. The Shadar Logoth dagger not being as deadly 

5. Galldrian being a woman

6. Barthanes Damodred being Moiraine's nephew

7. Anvaere being Moiraine's younger sister

8. Moiraine being in her 70s

9. The Two Rivers being the village name as well as the  geographical region wherein said village is located

10. Logain's Talent being the ability to detect male Channelers

11. The previous Wisdom of The Two Rivers being turned away from the White Tower because she was poor

12. Nynaeve not being a The Two Rivers native

13. Perrin having married Laila Dern

14. Egwene and Rand explicitly having an intimate physical relationship with one another

15. Moiraine and Siuan maintaining their "Pillowfriends" relationship - in secret- throughout their adult lives

16. Liandrin being old enough to have an elderly and dying son

5 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

I have to chime in and say I with @SinisterDeath, here. 

Fair enough, and "to each their own".

@SinisterDeath My point of view on this is borne of insights I've gained into the general processes and nuances of how television storytelling (and writing) works.

Most WoT viewers are likely to be non-readers and are, if they have any familiarity at all with television storytelling on even just a basic level (IOW, if they've ever watched scripted TV), unlikely, IMO, to question or even think about questioning the logistics of Liandrin taking her captives out of the city.

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I think you're undervaluing the intelligence of the non-reader here when it comes to TV show escapism and continuity. Little details matter.

Remember when Liandrin snuck out of the White Tower to see her son?
That conveniently showed Nynaeve how to sneak out of the tower.

That showed non-readers and readers alike that Nynaeve now known how to sneak out of the tower. That's continuity. 

What's not clear, is how on earth Liandrin managed to sneak 3 girls out of the center of Tar Valon in the middle of the Night past the Tower Guards and the City Walls to the way Gate outside the City that they used in Season 1... That they made a huge deal about in... Season 1...

How Liandrin got the girls out of the city is, from a television storytelling perspective, non-important because television storytelling does not, by its very nature, require such a thing to be explained, which is why I said that I doubt that most non-readers watching the show will have even thought to ask the question of how, logistically,  she got them from the Tower to the Ways.

@Agitel I would wager that most non-readers wouldn't even think to ask how Liandrin got her captives from Tar Valon into the Ways, because it's really a non-important detail from a television storytelling perspective.

Re: the Forsaken, the most straightforward and literal inference that can be gleaned from what Lanfear says is that the show is only giving us 3 female Forsaken: Lanfear and the two Forsaken she mentions by name

@DreadLord31 Those things are not (to me, at least) 'fake-out death' examples; they are examples/instances of commonplace stakes-raising cause-and-effect writing.

I don't view anything that the writers have thus far done as "faking out" the audience, but that may be because I'm approaching what they are doing from the perspective of having been able to, through various means, gain personal insight into the general processes associated with writing Scripted Television.

With that being said, I have acknowledged - and will continue to acknowledge - that the possibility of all of their writing choices being misdirection does exist; I just personally wouldn't be counting on such to be the case based on how I view their approach to writing the show thus far.

We don't know within the context of the show what the Forsaken can or cannot do when it comes to Channeling.

Most of the arguments in favor of the prevailing fandom Shielded, Not Stilled theory, at least that I have seen, hinge largely on what fans know from the novels and which may or may not be true within the context of the show, which itself has had multiple characters talking about and reacting to Moiraine's situation as if it is permanent, not temporary.

5 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Until the show does something different, the book lore still holds true

The show itself has already proven that its writers are not operating by this logic several times over.

The show itself has told us nothing about how a Stilling affects the Oaths, so any assertions by the fandom community that they are no longer binding if a Stilling has occurred do not really have any effect on the show's approach to the behavior of Moiraine and other characters in relation to what happened to her, which has all consistently been pointed in the direction of her being permanently unable to Channel.

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

I don't really see any particular lean into the notion she's stilled. Feels like it's just status quo without new evidence in support of either theory.

Lanfear and Ishy's conversation about Moiraine is specifically worded to match and reinforce the show's previous demonstrations of Moiraine and other characters behaving as if her loss of connection to the One Power is permanent (Stilled) rather than temporary (Shielded).

Several things:

1) I continue to love Liandrin even though I'm fully aware that I shouldn't

2) So now we know why Season 2's new costume designer, Sharon Gilham, said that it takes the death of a Damane in order for their collar(s) to be removed

3) In spite of prevailing fan theories to the contrary, the show continues to lean further and further into the notion that Moiraine has been Stilled, not Shielded

@Lightfriendsocialmistress It's important to keep in mind two things when it comes to Alanna's conversations with Lan:

1) she is genuinely in the dark about Moiraine's mission and therefore unaware of what Lan may or may not know about her

2) she thinks that Moiraine released Lan's bond

Because of these two factors, nothing she says on the subject of Moiraine or the bond should be taken at face value since, like Nynaeve did in Fal Dara, she's jumping to (wrong) conclusions.

In the show, as presented, we have three scenarios in play:

1) Verin, Adeleas, and Tomas believe that Moiraine has been Stilled and that the bond between her and Lan has been broken; Moiraine herself also believes that she's been Stilled, but is keeping herself going out of sheer willpower and the unflinching belief that Rand, the Dragon Reborn, needs her help

2) Lan is 'less than he was' without the bond, but remains committed to protecting and serving Moiraine, leading to frustration as she pulls away from him and eventually forces him to go with Alanna by threatening to have her Bond him by force and against his will

3) Alanna, Ihvon, and Maksim either think that Moiraine released the bond (Alanna) or that the fact that the bond is gone means that Lan might be suicidal (Ihvon and Maksim)

Any confusion arises, IMO, from there being visual similarities between Shielding and whatever Ishy actually did to Moiraine and people therefore prioritizing the theory that Moiraine has been Shielded over the show's more prevalent indications that she's been Stilled.

Steering this discussion back a bit closer to my original topic, I'm wondering if anybody else besides me would like to try formulating a general timeline for Moiraine, Siuan, Alanna, and Liandrin's personal histories within the context of what the show has presented.