So I asked my spouse (non book reader) what she thought of the series so far and here is what she thought.

Better than Witcher. Worse than GOT (9/10). And maybe on par with the Shadow and Bone. So a 7/10.

VFX is ok.

The pattern is not really needed. The age of legends doesn’t really add any value. What is missing is character building. It’s difficult to believe some parts of the story.

She really likes Natasha and Fares.

Among our heroes her favorites are Perrin and Nynaeve. They are likeable and feels authentic.

She held a long speech about Egwene. She didn’t like at all that she killed Renna. Seemed out of character. The relationship building between Renna and Eg was not sufficiently explored. Renna wasn’t all evil and didn’t deserve to die. Maybe she somehow even could’ve helped Eg out of the collar? Anyhow, it wasn’t authentic character building that Eg. Killed Renna.

Also, on Rand. How on earth was he able to use his magic so easily and kill all these men (Turok and Co). He was just moments before having huge troubles doing something. Seemed out of character and not properly explained.

She liked the old Mat actor way more than the new.

Liandrin was “great”. Moiraine she felt was too much stuck in the middle. Could she not be either even more of principles or even more likable and trustworthy?

I thought her reflections quite interesting. Somewhat aligned, yet very different to my own as a book reader.

14 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

I would have preferred that, TBH.

Please please, please! Can we have you replace Rafe?

On 10/5/2023 at 12:38 PM, Ralph said:

 

assumed skipping and possibly the aiel will capture the castle in Falme instead

Nah. We will see Tear at some point. Rand needs Callandor. But no, the prophesies of Tear falling to aiel will be skipped for sure. We will never see Be'lal. He was pretty useless after all.

Still trying to get my head around this Episode.

The battles look cheesy and unreal to a large extent. Like a comic, rather than a real battle. I think it is due to some fashion to run things in slow-mo and at the same time make character say cheesy punch-lines.

Also this way to battle burn a lot of quality time that could have spent elsewhere.

And you've guys already said it. I agree. Here are the minus.

Moi. Too much power at too much of a distance. Even if she still has her angreal and took the main ship by surprise.

Avi. Very cheesy line. How would she instantly know he is their Car'a'Carn? Yeah I know there is the dragon... but their lore is different.

The questions marks.

Eg. Can't make up my mind here. I think she does a fantastic acting. I love she uses her own ingenious to get free. But she kills the sul'dam. And there are a lot of illogicalities with the double Adams. I love how she is protecting Rand. But there should be no way she should be able to hold that defensive shield up. At this time through the books she is likely at somewhere 30-50% of her full strength. And Ishy is somewhere between 2x - 4x stronger than her (at her full strength). And there is probably an angreal on his fingers. It makes good TV. Yeah. I so hoping that this is Ishy's long game, luring our heroes in believing they ar on par with the Forsaken.

Ny. Great that they finally tuned down her ability to just save the day. But I would have liked her to heal both Rand and Elayne. I the books Elayne is crap at healing if I remember correctly. And why on earth would she not break that arrow first before pushing it through. That was just plain dumb.

Rand. Good acting. But seriously. Staring in Ishy's eyes for half a minute before stabbing him through the heart. Nah, I don't buy it. And we are all left to wonder, why he didn't magically heal. I was looking forward to the sword fight, in which I did hope Lan would save Rand's sorry butt. But I can work with how they made Turok and his guards look like bugs not even worth bothering with.

Heroes. Well, Uno was fun to see. But his comments was just cheesy. I did like the female whirlwind. As for the rest, nah. They should've made more of lore out of them. Especially Arthur and Birgitte. I wonder if we will get Birgittes Arc from the books also in the show?

Mat. Some glimmering moments. But some cheesy too. Love the ashanderei. But the dagger turning into a dark saber? WTF.

Loial. Can't you start doing something useful, besides giving cheesy speeches. Open the box of the horn dammit. No they have to ruin the box by ash'sabering it! (as it makes Mat look witty and looks good on TV, common!:-()

And the plus.

Ishy. All in all. Fantastic! Not sure about how I felt about the vampire-stone and dust, however.

Lanfear. Best actress. Coolest character. Period. She definitely has my heart in the show. When I heard they would get Natasha to play her, I didn't know what to think. My first thoughts was, well she surely isn't beautiful enough. Now she looks bloody stunning in my eyes! Some awesome job they did wither.

Moghedien. I LOVE this version of Moggy. I absolutely hated her inte the books. Now she plays with Lanfear. That's awesome TV. I tried to look into the X-Ray as I hoped this was T'A'R' rather than left in Flame, but I didn't see it on the computer. On the plus, here they picked a really beautiful actress. Moggy was nothing but ordinary.

Horn. I actually cried when they blew it. This was a great moment.

Lan. Finally gets to shine for a bit.

Well. So what does this all give me? Entertaining yes. Is it WOT. Nah. Is it close enough? Well it's this I get to live with. I like it enough.

On 10/2/2023 at 6:52 PM, Chivalry said:

I do recall at least one of the prior mentions, but that's my point - too many references but no clear explanation of why it matters. If they are going to provide some exposition, perhaps a brief explanation of the Karaethon Cycles would help, even if just a screen quote at the beginning of an episode, or a flashback scene of young Moiraine (or Verin) encountering or puzzling over the meaning of this particular prophecy.  Better yet, let's have Sherlock Lan discover the prophecy all by himself. 

Aha, I like this idea.

Better yet, I just now got confirmation from a very credible source that Lan is to become the permanent Karaetheon Warder of the White Tower libraries from now throughout the rest of the show. Apparently many viewers complained that all the prophesy was too obscurely delivered on screen and they realized they had to something significant. And obviously they got awesome feedback on the test concepts where Lan explored (... and here I quote my source) "his softer self" and "where he was to contribute more with reasoning, philosophy, literature".  So they realized that they would want him "to deliver frequent of insights from the Age of Legends throughout each episode from season 3". As a result they are apparently seriously considering removing Herid Fel completely and maybe reducing the brown-ish part of Verin's role significantly in favor to make her all black-ish.

So you see, they will make "a very modern completely non violent man out of him".

On 10/1/2023 at 2:59 PM, Finnssss22 said:

 

My cold open guess involves a little cheating from casting leaks. I'll put a spoiler tag in so don't click if you don't want to know.

 

  Hide contents

It's probably a long shot but it's based on the premise that Rand and Turok will have their sword fight.

The cold open will indeed be LTT (already confirmed by leaks that he appears in e8) but it will him and Sammael (There's one actor left whose role has not been revealed yet who is the perfect Sammy) sword fighting where Sammy gets his scar.

There is then some LTT/Rand memory spillover that allows Rand to beat Turok.

 

Not bad. That could happen.

On 4/10/2023 at 7:04 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

If names determined characteristics, I’d personally avoid naming anything nyneave 😂

Why on earth would anyone say such a thing?? I seriously had the dillusion that my future daughter would be given just that very name!

As it turned out I never had a daughter, but three sons. One of the is called Theon. Ohh well, that’s another series I know. But it’s tangential at least.😉

1 hour ago, DreadLord31 said:

Well… 

We’ve been promised a battle on the scale of something from Gladiator. 

They’ve quadrupled down on “battle in the sky in fire.” And Rand being proclaim as the Dragon. 

Theyve set up Egwene for - beating down Renna & Nynaeve going “What the… did they do to you…?” 
 

Matt might finally do something (and it won’t be stab Rand…Fain will do that, trust me - watch Mins vision closely). 
 

Avi, Bain, and Chiad will show Perrin how real fighters fight… against Whitecloaks? And somehow the Shinarans will randomly appear so Ingtar can have a moment. 

 

Rand will sword fight Turok, but maybe Lan steps in to save his butt? Lan actually do something? I’m thinking… 

 

If Lanfear doesn’t try to do something sneaky to Moiraine … their writing makes no sense. 
 

The horn will be blown. Wait! Why wouldnt Turok blow the horn when he easily opened the chest & said “With this, the whole world will be ours.” Wasn’t this whole season suppose to have the Hunt for the Horn be a central feature? Oh well. We needed time for Lan to read and figure out Moiraine was shielded not stilled. 
 

What else… what else… 
 

 

Quadrupled down? What did I miss?

Yes. Yes. Good thinking!

I think the wild cards here are Ishy, Lanfear, Moi and Lan. The other plot lines should overall play out similar to the books. Yea yea yea, I know things are different with Uno, Aiel, Whitecloaks and more....

What is Ishy's end play here? Get Rand to turn as he sees his friends being tormented or turned to the shadow? I bet Egwene and Mat will be shown to Rand in desperate positions.

Lanfear will want Rand to gain power and proclaim himself. She wouldn't want Rand to turn. So she will scheme to disrupt the show. The question is how? Probably only indirectly... maybe she will bring the white cloaks to the party?

Moi and Lan just want to save the day I guess. How will they part with Rand and Lanfear? I think they will almost be too late for the party.

The wonder girls will save the day as always. Maybe the Heroes of the horn will contribute a bit?

Lan will cheer lead Moi as she does magic ninja tricks.

Loial will not do much.

NynEl will save Eg.

The Far Dareis Mai will show all men they know nothing generally and of dancing particularly.

Eg. will have some of the "replies" to Renna as suggested elsewhere here. We will have her swear she will not rest until the Seanchan is thrown back into the sea and every damane is uncollared.

The Season will all end with 3 things.

The dragon will proclaim himself.

The team will finally board Spray.

Ishy will free the rest of the Forsaken, realizing his first plan didn't go exactly as planned.

Rand will not do anything important and everyone will still wonder until next Season, "what's up with this useless boy?". No we will not see a proper fight with Ishy and Rand. The proclamation will be done in some other way. Most likely scenario it has something to do with the horn. Maybe the dragon bannor will magically manifest itself in the sky as the horn sounds?

Did we really get 4 different clues already to the actual battle taking place? Not just the proclamation itself?

Ahh yes, the motivation:

Turok wouldn't blow the horn as he would naturally want to gift it to the Empress to rise even higher in the blood, and maybe even be adopted by the royal family.

10 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Ok, so new bit of info… I know this is a thread on Ep7, but there is a preview of Ep8 out… what do we think, fair game as it pertains to this discussion??? 

I think it looks exciting!:-)

8 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Oh man, what a disaster would that be… if every season you had a different main character bail… 

 

But that isn’t really a 3rd option because my two assertions were: 

1) Egwene gets the collar off next episode 

2) Egwene doesn’t die to get the collar off 

 

I did just now thought furiously and vividly on the options of not killing her yet satisfying the claim “that a damane must die to remove the adam” (which I do not believe to be true btw) and came up with a way to do it without resurrection.

You just have to find a way to invalidate / nullify the working of the adam. Ie make sure that the one power feature of the adam is not working.

We do know how to do this. Enter a stedding with a bolt cutter and just clip it.

8 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Because I know her reputation and her credibility, both of which are high-level.

 

If the information about the collars only being able to be removed from dead damane didn't come directly from Sharon Gilham and were not objectively true, it would not have appeared in the article.

A costume designer creates costumes. I bet her assignment was to create a necklace that “could not be taken of unless the wearer is dead”

However she chooses to communicate around this should be taken into the context of … costumes.

As far as WOT lore is concerned the principles are written in the books. These are interpreted and may have been adjusted by the show runner to some extent.

Heck even the writers cannot be trusted to follow the lore. And we know they will tweak and adjust as you go to ensure the story roughly follows the original story.

To leave the necklace on Egwene will have such paramount ramifications that I am sure Rafe will ensure that it comes off in one way or another while Eg being alive on the other side of it.

Given the criticism they received from resurrecting-ish Nyn, I would lean towards following the books on this one. That’s Occams Razor.

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Sometimes I wish I could be a fly on the wall in the writers' room.  I'd love to hear the conversation around Mat.  I imagine it would be something like this:

 

A: "Ok, team, we need to get Mat to Falme."

B: "We do?  Didn't we just spend last episode having him say he'll go and then giving him a reason not to?"

A: "Yes, but now we need him there."

B: "Why?"

A: "It's in the books."

B: "Oh, so lets get him there the way he went in the books."

A: "Can't do that.  Forget about the books."

B: "But you just said..."

A: "Not now, dammit, we need to figure this out."

B: "Ok, well how far is it?"

A: "About 1500 Miles."

B: "..."

B: "Well, we could give him a motivation; something to chase.  The dagger, maybe?  Or the horn?"

A: "The what?  Oh yeah, I forgot about those.  No, that's too much work."

B: "Jerry over there did some good work on Episodes 5 and 6.  Maybe he has an idea?"

A: "Jerry, pitch me something."
J: "Are you ready for this?  We could hit him on the head, then cut to him in Tear."

A: "Perfect.  Jerry, you really are a wunderkind."

 

 

 

Someone YouTuber here, PLEASE PLEASE (!) do a YouTube-sketch on this!

1 hour ago, Guire said:

Just want to point out that seamen valda is an amazing autocorrect.  I am in full snark mode today and the world keeps refilling my cup.

Ahh yes, I thought it was strange of you to call him that. I don't have the books with me atm by I am pretty sure his name was Semen Valda.

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I feel like the writers are doing well on this. And it's been done in the context of the Moiraine, Siuan, Lan, Alanna arc that most people seem to dislike.

 

So: Moiraine has kept her secret task of finding the Dragon secret from everyone but Siuan and Lan. She was certain that her plan to take the Dragon to the Eye was the right one. She was horribly wrong and got humbled in the process. Wounded pride and the misguided notion that she had to do it alone causes her to keep her intentions secret from everyone. She never tells Siuan that she was stilled/shielded.

 

Lan: Doesn't understand what is happening, but recognizes instinctually that it isn't adding up. Moiraine isn't acting right if she'd been stilled. She's suddenly stopped trusting the two people that she has confided in across the years. He doesn't know for certain what to do about it and flounders.

 

Siuan: Already feels betrayed by Moiraine not telling her about the stilling/shielding. Recognizes that she and Moiraine miscalculated badly at the Eye. Now doesn't trust herself and flops to the opposite side of the fence, falling back on Tower law. Then, instead of really talking things through, Moiraine goes quiet and pouty. Then she breaks Rand out of his cell during an attack by the Forsaken. When she confronts Moiraine, suddenly her powers are back. Certainly Siuan thinks that Moiraine is Black at this point.

 

Alanna: Understands that both Moiraine and Lan are acting weird. Finds a Dark Prophecy in Lan's saddlebags and recognizes that Lan lied to her about why he needed to see Siuan. Why is this happening? Is Lan a darkfriend? She initiates a confrontation and forces a decision. (Alanna is smart - 3 on 1 if Lan is a baddy). 

 

All of this is similar to the poor communication that RJ weaves throughout WoT. And it's having the exact same effect on the audience - frustration and annoyance - that it did when we were reading the books. So, mission accomplished!! 

Best analysis and explanation I have seen in quite some time. Things make so much more sense to me now... Excellent job!

May I add... they apparently infused the other side of the show's feminism to build intelligence and soft capabilities in men (or maybe just warders?). Since it's mostly women that are capable to fight and destroy stuff. Men has to be equipped with more soft skills to balance things out...

Hence we should never have expected Lan to be as the book made him. He will support Moi with needleworks, book reading and riddle solving in addition to making regular food errands. The sword will be mostly as a decoration and never really used. I bet Egeanin will replace Lans arc in _that_ final scene.

Then again I hope not. I still hope they will successively tilt the power balance over the series just as in the books with Rand gaining power, claws, distrust and power corruption eventually climaxed as in the end of book 6 through to whatever book he learned that lesson...

If we will see that general shift in the TV show, then there is still hope for our Lan too I guess?

5 hours ago, Irvyne said:

Oh geez.

What have they done to Lan...?

What have they done to Siuan...?

What have they done to Mat...?

This show, man. I swear the writers have never actually read the books. They just looked at names and general plot points and said, "Ah, we're all right. We can do better."

/ shakes head in disbelief

Something in me sees the show and thinks fan-fiction about half the time. Yes this is, somehow the WOT universe, but nah it's not the story I wanted. Then I have to pinch myself really hard and try to think positively. At least we get an adaptation for TV. It's this or nothing!

Ohh dear, I am truly trying to enjoy the ride... but it sure is very hard sometimes!

/nods in agreement

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

Another terrible episode.

 

The worst part the absolutely hilarious scene when the girls get dropped off to the Seachan.

 

Soldiers march away from Seachan take the girls from the horses then drop them at the side then march all the way back to the patrol. WTF. Why not keep the prisoners with you.

Damane fail to realize that she has removed the shields and freed the girls using the power.

Can't imagine Ishmael will be thrilled when he finds out that Liandrin released them.

Then what appears to be a pathetic chase scene.

Another hilarious palanquin.

 

Fight scene with Perrin and Avi was terrible so many quick cuts so dark. A real let down when the blood snow was one of the better components of the first season. Did appear at one point that the white cloaks could have just struck Perrin down but did not.

 

Season continues to lurch from poor to crap to dumpster fire.

 

 

I feel you exaggerate quite a bit. Sure, the fight odds was a bit too uneven. Not really realistic. And it was too dark. Must watch again on my OLED TV. I feel that this problem is quite common these days. Not just in WOT.

The capturing scene. The sul’dam should’ve reacted faster sure. But I think this was partly the due to conscious cinematic sequencing choices. And partly because the seanchan are overconfident.

I loved this Episode. The best this season so far.

18 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The great holding of Tear to be exact - he needed it to activate the portal stone that took them to Rhuidean.

Right. My mind bogs me apparently. So which is it? The figurine in E108…

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

25. What makes you think that? Just because Ishy's personal seal was there? Didn't give me any Shayol Ghul vibes.

 

33. & 39. These are likely the case of unreliable narrator though I don't remember if Mo said the sa'angreal is "the strongest ever made" or just "it will make your power a thousandfold stronger".

 

Padan Fain managed to use the Ways "somehow" and that somehow is showed in BTS/cut footage. Hopefully we'll see the answer in the future.

 

Other points I have no interest in answering. Some are objective changes and some subjective

Aha. Right I remember incorrectly I see. And in the light of S2 events I misunderstood some stuff…

39. E108 13:50. Moi says his power will increase a 100-fold. Btw, is that really a sa’angreal or is that really the “fat little man” angreal that book-Rand found in Rhuidan? Is Moi wrong about it being a sa’angreal?

33. Aha. Right, could be there is another way. But then, wouldn’t Loial know if there was? And again could have had an Aes Sedai open it for him. I guess we have to WAFO.

25. Yes you are right, I assumed that since Ishy was imprisoned there, then it would be Shayol Ghul. Still there seems little resemblance between the book Eye and Shayol Ghul.

Which brings me back to the core point of the discussion I believe. The many many changes and the implications and risks with them.
 

Doesn’t really matter if they are subjective or objective. They changed a lot of stuff and as fans here we obviously have different appetites for them. For some, red lines have clearly already passed. Others apparently just fully embrace the changes and welcome them. 
 

My own standpoint is somewhere in the middle I guess. I don’t really fancy the systemic changes done, but can accept leaving out or removing plot lines,  Or even including additional sub stories and scenes where that makes sense.

My biggest fear is still that they would change too much to alienate the fans while still not making it exciting with enough quality to attract the masses. Then the show would face the risk of being prematurely ended despite Amazon’s promises.

8 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

Not sure if we should make this it's own thread or move it to the one from last year but now that we've got two more Forsaken confirmed we can guess how they match with the statues..

 

 

From the left:

 

Moggy - nothing to go off other than she's confirmed and isn't the other female statues

 

Semihage - not confirmed but the only other female could be Mesaana and this statue reminds me of her

 

Sammael - poor lil dude

 

Ishy - confirmed in the episode 

 

Lanfear - moon belt

 

Asmo - dudes holding a guitar / lute

 

Demondred - guessing as he's more important than the other male possibilities 

 

Graendel- confirmed, also boobs..

Maybe make this a thread of kits own. I want to discuss this too. Even made an analysis of my own on it in the Ep 5 thread, but it got completely displaced by all the arguing of the “following the lore” discussion.

6 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

She would surely have criticised book Moghedien as cowardly and book Semirhage as insane so perhaps they are conflating those two and making Moghedien the master torturer.

Good thinking! How would that play out? Would we see Moggy in the infamous torture scene with that Aes Sedai (Brianna Mecandes???) and her warder?

Will she torture Nyn? Or Liandrin even worse?

4 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Let’s add: 

17. Moiraine and Rand going to the EotW & Moiraine being stilled or shielded by Ishy. 
 

18. Matt’s parents being garbage. Matt being “prone to evil”. Matt’s whole arc basically. 
 

19. Uno dying. 

20. Seanchan taking Atuwans Mill. 
 

21. Seanchan sending a tital wave at a little girl alone on a beach? 
 

22. Rand receiving no training//time sword fighting with Warders 

 

23. No Gawyn and Galad at the Tower with Elayne. No Elaida yet. No Camelyn yet. Was there mention of both brothers this episode? Here I was hoping Gawyn was cut! 😉 

Ahh while we are at it:

24. No green man / Nym

25. TEOTW is merged with Shayol Ghul

26. Aginor and Balthamel not there

27. The Eye is not a distilled pure source of saidin. Which I opposed to most believe is hugely problematic as I believe that the Eye was especially made as an insulation towards the madness of the taint.

28. The seals are way bigger, holds a forsaken each and can't really be moved around.

29. You can be burned out when linked.

30. The defeat of the trolloc army wasn't done by Rand.

31. Egwene is apparently a very skilled healer. (which despite being a wisdom candidate is not her book-skillset)

32. Healing can be done en'masse from afar.

33. The ways requires the one power to be used.

34. There are 8 forsaken.

35. Shielding someone off "requires" 8 Aes Sedai (not 13 anymore).

37. The Horn's location was wrong.

38. The "tell"

39. The male little figurine with a sword is not an angreal but rather "the strongest sa'angreal ever made"

40. The Seanchan army looks more like monsters than insects

41. The nails

42. The damane / suldam way of working and appearances

I am sure there is more...

---

There is definitely a case for changing too many minor, small or medium sized things that as a whole it wont feel like Randland anymore. And some of the above are potentially large or even major changes. Will we see the use of the Choedan Kal?

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

Since Semirhage was placed with the Return in the books, but Ishy seems to have replaced her with them in the tv show. Of course Semirhage did arrive with Tuon so she may still show up then. 

Ep205: Lanfear: ..."because Moghedien is insane, Greandal is vain idiot and the boys couldn't execute a plan even if they were under compulsion".

This statement gives us a clue that they will leave out several Forsaken.

We also have the 8p star from Ep201, indicating there where 8 seals. One per Forsaken?

I also vaguely remember someone saying somewhere that they were 8 Forsaken too. Cannot remember whom or in which episode or sequence however... maybe someone can enlighten me or correct my memory if false?

And in Episode 105 there are the figurines on the table in front of Stepin. I've now rewatched that like 7 times, but I cannot get a perfect look at the table. There seems to be 8 figurines, but I could definately be wrong. We could try to figure out by their looks who is who... maybe someone did that already? From the quick looks of it I do believe they are from right to left:

1. Woman, rich bosom- maybe Lanfear or Greandal? I guess Greandal.

2. Unclear, looks like a monster in a fancy dress. Would guess a man more than a woman. Maybe Asmodean or Rahvin. I guess Rahvin

3. Demandred (we see a sword, trimmed beard), but could be Rahvin. I guess Demandred.

4. Woman, lurking in the shadows? Moghedien or maybe Lanfear. I guess Lanfear.

5. Ishamael (as this is pretty clear from Stepin)

6. Sammael (no doubt in my mind at least)

7. Skinnier woman - maybe Greandal or Mesaana. I guess Mesaana.

8. Smaller figurine, probably a woman. Is that a spider web? Could be Moghedien. I guess Moghedien.

Anyways... they would logically remove the Forsaken that made the least impact in the books and either merge their properties with the other forsaken or remove their arcs completely.

My bet, without even taking into account all the figurines above is that we won't see:

1. Aginor / Osan'gar / Dashiva (as they already cut out his natural entrance in the show)

2. Balthamel / Aran'gar / Halima  (as they already cut out his natural entrance in the show)

3. Be'lal (he was pretty useless and his plot line can easily be merged with Sammael and Ishy)

4. Semirhage (which I believe they somehow merged with Lanfear in terms of "cruelty", and Ishy in terms of plot line). She wasn't useless, but maybe not too effective...

5. Asmodean, Rahvin or Mesaana. Since Logain will have a larger role in the TV-series probably as Rand's tutor I bet they leave out Asmodean. Both Rahvins and Mesaanas actions make too much of an impact in the books and leaving them out completely would leave us without some important fights and many many plot lines.

The best objection I have with myself against these conclusions is Lanfears statement above. Mentioning only 2 other female Chosen besides herself as she would consider "competent" to be woken early on.

What do you think?

12 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

What a rollercoaster. 
Quality wise, this was the best episode of the season IMO. Pretty compelling throughout. 
 

I’ll have to rewatch as well before I have much else to say. But my initial thoughts are that the Lanfear/Isha’mael dialogue & acting, oooh man, my confidence in the show increased a lot. I just wish each episode was consistently this good. Have this director do every episode! 

I have to completely agree to this.  Ep4 left me with a pretty bad taste in my mouth, but this episode made me really excited!

The Lan/Ishy meet-up is really the golden moment yet of this Season. LOVED THAT!

Generally, I'm actually starting to like how they are unfolding the temptation to turn to the Shadow in many of the arcs. While some, including me sometimes, here seems to believe that we see too many new character arcs with new unnecessary content, it's overall starting to make more and more sense to me. They are slowly winning me over.

12 hours ago, Samt said:

It saves time, but also raises questions.  Is Balefire the only answer?  Why only the forsaken?  Is it unlimited?  Maybe we'll get answers to these questions, but I'm not sure if they'll be convincing.  In the books, the dark one still needs to steal new bodies and it takes some time and presumably resources.  In the show, it seems that it can happen instantly, anywhere, and without any significant cost.  That is a huge change in the power of the dark one and forsaken and just raises questions as to how they ever lost in the first place.  

Ahh, yes. Good questions indeed! Speaking of Balefire, makes me wonder if we will even see that?

So we now got clues that each seal in this WOTverse where tailored for one Forsaken.  And why would they be if there was Balefire around to simply kill them off? If I remember correctly from the books the Forsaken were sealed off in the DO prison simply because they were around when the bore was sealed off.

Here we seem to have 8 tailored seals. One to trap each Forsaken. If there were more potent weapons like Balefire around why even bother with the entrapment solution?

And if we won't see Balefire, then how would you kill an Original Chosen? Maybe a dagger can be made from the Avendesora tree to be plunged into the heart of the Chosen?

15 minutes ago, Vartija said:

I struggled with this episode.

 

Lan's storyline just feels so boring at this point. It feels like a rehash of the Stepin story arc with added confusion about what's the nature of his bond to Moiraine. Are we supposed to be entertained by that mystery? I just don't buy into the show's story of Lan and Moiraine suddenly being unable to communicate or work together for whatever reason. Lan should see right through Moiraine's reasoning to push him away like this. This storyline only works by making Lan act stupid. It all feels so convoluted and a waste of time. The part with Maxim looking through Lan's stuff also felt a bit soap operaish. The warders in general feel like just a bunch of random guys instead of the hyper alert super bodyguards they were in the books. I don't understand this infatuation with the warders' relationships with their AS or each other and the bond.

 

Tower stuff was mostly ok, though I don't know if we needed so much time dissecting the Three Arches experience. I still struggle with Liandrin's expanded role. Half the time she just comes off ridiculously villainy which makes you wonder how the rest of the Aes Sedai put up with her (this started already in Season 1). Like openly threatening Leane in this episode.   

 

The Anvaere-Moiraine stuff was pretty good. 

 

The wolf visions might work quite well. I always knew it was going to be difficult to show Perrin's wolf stuff on screen but these "sendings" actually have some potential. For one it eliminates the need to have wolves around all the time and still make use of Perrin's powers - the wolves just send the images to warn Perrin or inform him of events. Kind of like the Shadowkiller sendings in TGH. I'm still not enamoured with Elyas's portrayal but at least Perrin's arc is finally moving forward. 

 

Not a big fan of dragging Min to Ishamael's plots. I'd be just fine with a good character who isn't been manipulated or background changed to something darker than the books (like Mat).

 

Really surprised by what they did with Selene. I thought they'd keep her real identity a secret at least from Rand until the end of the season if not next season. I thought they were going to milk the relationship so that the scene at the docks and Rand's reluctance to harm her would feel much more belieavable. Now that's out the window. Anyway, not a big fan of how they executed (no pun intended) that scene. How did Moiraine know she was actually Lanfear and not some random person? How did she sneak into the room without either noticing anything especially without her channelling abilities? How did she know she couldn't be killed? What's her plan next if she knew she didn't just kill her and is obviously seeking revenge? Also it just looked way too familiar with both Dana's death and Moiraine's "death" in the Blight in season 1.      

 

This episode had some weird editing and directing choices as well. There's a double take of Egwene reacting similarily just seconds apart when talking to Nynaeve. Lan's hair looks weird and Lan taking a piss was just a weird writing/directing choice - I actually loled when I saw the teaser for that scene. The bad editing makes it look amateurish and like the production just doesn't care enough to fix those things. 

 

I don't know, the episode just left me feeling sour. Like it dragged me back to the wrong side of "even if different I can still enjoy it". I couldn't hide being both bored (Lan) and too confused (Min, Selene) about stuff to really enjoy it. I got the uncomfortable feeling that I wouldn't continue with the show if I didn't love the source material.  

Thank you putting words to very much how I feel too! But to seriously stop watching? Nah, that won't happen as long as it has some WOT resemblance. I am mostly concerned that they would cancel the show prematurely, despite Amz promises, unless quality is more consistent and a bit higher. As of now it feels a touch n'go for that kind of decision.

10 hours ago, Samt said:

I'm also coming to the conclusion that it's just not worth it anymore to worry about the changes from the book.  This isn't that story.  It's not useful to try to understand them in each other's context.  

 

Your two concerns quoted above are my exact questions.  

 

Every scene with the warders or Aes Sedai discussing the implications of the bond serves only the confuse me more.  And nobody really seems to be confused, just worred about Lan.  Is Lan still bonded to Moiraine and the bond is just inactive?  Do the characters themselves not know?  Is Lan's state presently distinguishable from the state that led to Stepin's suicide?  If Lan is effectively unbonded, what does it mean for Alanna to forcibly take his bond?  Would that be distinct from Alanna just forcibly bonding an unbonded person?  

 

And in regards to Lanfear regenerating?, a big point of the forsaken is that they are ultimately regular mortals in mortal bodies once you get past all the crazy things they can do with the one power.  But leaving the book lore aside, it also raises serious questions for the show.  We're going to need some serious explanations as to how shrugging off impalement and throat slitting is not universe breaking.  Can anyone do it?  What are the limits?  If you don't have good and consistent answers for these questions, you are going to undercut a lot of tension in the show.  I question whether the creators really learned anything from the problems that superhealing created, if they are just repeating the same thing.  

Finally among likeminded here on DM yet again. This episode made me really worried, again for the first time after E.108. (which was a huge disappointment to me)

Moi/Lan bond:

Logically she is shielded and he still bonded:

1. since Lan's not really in agony and going berserk, he should still be bonded and the bond should be masked.

2. Did Moi almost channel when that fade came in an earlier Episode? May have been Verin?

3. While Moi seems to be missing the OP she is really capable and not the total crying mess she should've been had she been cut off from the source.

4. We know from the books that it's possible to make complex and tied off shields that would be next to impossible to break through.

The other option (i.e. TV-show compression) - she is stilled and he unbounded

1. Moi's really cut off from the source as this event in reality replaces Leanne / Siuan stilling.

2. She will still push Lanfear through the 'finn dooorway. She doesn't really need the OP for that purpose anyways.

3. Balefire will be introduced by someone else.

4. She won't BF hellhounds, nor Be'lal. (which 5 Forsaken aren't we seeing? Asmo, Semirhage, Aginor and Demandred?)

5. Nyn will heal her eventually.

6. The entire Salidar plot line will be cut out / or at least minimized.

My bet is on option 2. And they effectively and sadly destroyed part of the lore.

Lanfear regenerating

I think this is more of Vampire-ism than Zombie logic. Not an expert of Zoombies however, but I have seen my fair share of vampire-series and they are full of this stuff. IMHO these type of moves destroys the novelty of the Randland (in this case DO-LOTG) mechanisms and the WOT-series becomes just another fantasy/undead Hollywood-series.

When they played this move I instantly shut my computer and screamed "Nooo, wtf *Å/&%€%". Honestly I hated it. Had to re-see the entire Episode and address it with logic rather than emotions...

Here it goes:

1. They don't give a crap of how the channeling logic is set up, beyond the basics. This we know from S1.

2. They gave Nyn the ability to nova mass-heal from a distance.

3. They must now make the Forsaken more bad-ass.

4. So they level up and make them truly immortals with regeneration abilities.

5. It's super practical from a casting POV.

6. As audience we now truly understand the statement " you have no conception of the power they wield".

7. Giving the Forsaken this power is a much simpler and time efficient move to demonstrate their power by proving all sorts of channeling tricks they make in the books. Simple time compression logic.

And how will Moi and Rand get away from an angry? surprised Lanfear?

Well, logically. She could play dead. Or as her ultimate aim is still to continue seducing Rand, she could very well not commence the hunt and reappear later (in the waste perhaps?). This would conveniently push Moi away from Rand as he would still continue have his feelings for Selene and it's Moi's fault that she is dead... or she could be halted by Ishamael? Or she would need time to regain strength from regenerating. Or they would just fix it with a change of scenes and we will never know what happened.

Any or all reasons would work...

Bah, emotion beats logic every time.

Back to lurking

A fan’s thought on the show so far...

So I have been a fan of WOT what seems like forever and even used to hang out on usenet to discuss this series long before discussions moved here. Having said that - I am annoyed, but maybe not surprised on the level of criticism the series so far has received by some fans.

We have a total of 14 + 1 books to turn into a show of maybe some 8 seasons. I highly doubt that we would get 14 seasons of this. That means 2 books roughly per season, and that would be impossible with 8 – 10 episodes per season. So Rafe was given a near impossible task to carve out ever so much and still keep everything in we love with the WOT universe. In addition he has to please Jeff and newcomers and everyone else that will want to have an opinion about WOT.

Also – it seems now that the series is out that we put these chronicles upon a pedestal! As far as I remember the books, we had many many almost unnecessary plotlines and the middle of the series around book 6/7-10, pace was infatuating slow. Fans were seriously disappointed (not only with the speed of writing) but also with the actual content of these books. Given this, there is a potential to actually make the TV series better than the books. Pray the light! (and please don’t flame away)

Given that there is no way to produce this show unless to make some serious changes - you have to

(1) speed things up and

(2) remove character plotlines.

Speeding things up means character development has to be faster. By removing plotlines some of the ripple effects will lead to adding more or other nuances to the remaining characters.

To all the fans out there that expected no changes – go make a reality check of your preconceived presumptions!

Here are my humble thoughts on some of the more upsetting changes made:

So we have 5 Ta'veren? This may seem unnecessary – but it is actually quite reasonable. That neither Nyn nor Eg are actual Ta’veren in the books doesn’t really make sense given the density of their plotlines and the importance they play. In addition – it wouldn’t really reason with our time to have 3 male main characters and 2 secondary main female char’s.

Possibly a female DR – my first reaction to this was that this Rafe dude is surely a complete troll. But then I figured that this would resonate with the non-book readers exploration journey. And as we know it obviously a male soul can be put into a female body. So it’s a virtual possibility and maybe it’s the Aes Sedai do-not-know-how-the-wheel-weaves-nor-wills is at work? Maybe there is not Karetheon cycle? But nah – I don’t like this. But with time this can and will for sure be cleared out.

Channeling logic is not as expected – Aes Sedai make flimsy hand moves, all the threads are white, the channelers has super slow weavings. I hope that there is no better way to produce this then to make it visibly for all to see the threads now as white and that when we get into channeling lessons later, we would be able to distinguish the elements apart. The flimsy hand moves must be legacy Aes Sedai bogus only that will have to be reinvented by the supergirls. The slow weavings are hopefully also something our heroes eventually will be able to do faster – even though it will never be as fast as a sword fight (remember a certain Lan battle).

One power logic –

(1) Logains ability to see Nyn’s explosion – this was apparently done to make newbies consider Nyn to be the dragon. An unnecessary move IMO! Logain should only have been able to get the tingling sensations. I think this is really an error of the crew, that will be adjusted. Or they are taking liberties. I guess we will SAFO - See And Find Out.

(2) Logains apparent weakness (he was impressed by Nyn and that Moir seems unimpressed by his strength will probably change going forward. He will get stronger.

(3) Mass heal – Great visual effect and actually moved me to tears of joy. As a bookfan my mind doesn’t like it, but my heart does. And I am willing to accept the possibility that she could theoretically be able to do something like this – even if touching would have been preferable.

Mats family – to speed up character development for sure. Not a big deal in my book. Need for speed.

Perrins wife – to speed up character development for sure. Not a big deal in my book. Need for speed. Honestly I don’t understand what fuzz all the anger is about here. Enlighten me someone, please!

Shadar's lack of fog – makes me think they will cut out the BF fight in SL, BF crossings et.c. Not really sure about the repercussions of omitting this battle, however.

Our 2River Char’s pathway – Of course they need to adapt this to speed things up. Did they not already say there will be no journey into Caemlyn? Baerlon was also skipped, right?

Omitting the prologue – might as well come later. If I had a limited budget and was responsible for the production – I would have taken that one later as well. It made very little sense even in the books to start with this. Was such a leap from that to the 2Rivers. Maybe they could make it even grander and include the drilling of the bore?

Character changes – Why is Nyn never tugging her braid et.c.? I love the characters. I get really annoyed when they deviate too much here! At least they straighten their dresses enough?

Diversity - seems modern, no issue here. To me culture and race can be separated. Thus, we will experience many cultures – but race will be blended throughout the series. Seems a reasonable move to please critics, even though some fans cry at this.

Pacing – this is for sure not optimal. Would have appreciated a bit more character building to be able to relate more to the characters during the first couple of episodes. At the same time my wife and son, that didn’t read the book thought the first episodes were way to slow. So I guess there is a trade-off and you cannot simply satisfy everyone?

So is it perfect given the circumstances? No, it’s not. But it’s worth a lot more fan-credit than some are giving it right now on IMDB / Youtube et.c.

So far we are off to a good start. It will be really interesting to see where we are heading in a couple of seasons. I am excited and super happy that this project is even being done. To all fans – tune down the critizism, buckle up and let’s enjoy the ride together!