On 3/29/2024 at 2:00 AM, Elder_Haman said:

I’m not sure this tracks. The ratings information we have available shows WoT as comparable to other fantasy shows. You can certainly make the case that it’s not had the ROI Amazon wants, given the expense (a question that will be answered by the decision whether to green light Season 4), but the idea that it’s been some sort of ratings disaster is vastly overstated. 
 

It also bears repeating that the ratings information available to us does not reflect the international market, about which Amazon cares a great deal. 

There will be a season 4. They will at the least run a conclusion to the story even if it is a rush job. I can't see it running beyond season 5 at the very most though.

8 hours ago, Samt said:

I'm not saying he's a benevolent force or superfan.  It's more a consideration of reputation (personal and for his streaming service) and ego.  I just don't think that Bezos would part with the rights for WoT for an amount of money that wold reflect the economic value that someone else could get from them.  He would jack up the price in order to compensate for the perceived harm to his own brands and that increase in price would make this an unviable venture economically speaking.  So if someone wants to buy WoT from Bezos, they have to do that for a reason other than wanting to make money.  

But again you were saying that he cares little for the money however this is the man whose policies forced his employees to wear nappies, pee in water bottles and not wear seat belts, and some of his work sites have 100%+ turnover rates.

I fully agree that his reputation in certain areas is very important to him.

8 hours ago, Samt said:

Jeff Bezos is one of the richest men in the world.  I'd say there is significant evidence that he isn't doing WoT because he wants to make a significant profit on it.  That suggests he may not be willing to sell the rights to WoT rights for any amount of money that could possibly be re-couped in making a new TV show.  Thus, you would need to find a fan or group of fans that might be willing to take a 9-10 figure loss for the love of the story.  Possible, but seems a long shot.

It's obvious why bezos bought it he wanted his own GoT for his streaming service, and he wanted it almost entirely for the chance at more profit and the prestige it could bring too him.

bezos is not some benevolent force or megafan you only have to look at the way he treats his staff or independent contractors to see the true worth of the man.

13 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

There are some cultures that allow that.

 

Samoan culture and Tongan culture are two of them. Both are reflected in Far Madding and the Wise Ones in their personalities and how they react to each other. 

And Somoan and Tongan culture are examples of modern feminism.

19 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

It is a total block on Saidin as the books present it. Far Madding is the one place where modern feminism as we know it is a thing. Which is a justified stance considering saidin for most of the city's existence is a source of madness whenever it is accessed.

 

It is not an anti One Power city. That would be Amador in Amadicia. It is an anti Saidin city, that also just so happens to mistrust Saidar as well. Which is why women can move around the city with monitoring, but men are totally restricted.

 

If it was that way, Nyneave would not be able to tap her well to fool the Council into thinking it was Damer doing the channeling.

 

It might fail with a Saidin well, we just do not have any indication on that, because no male channeler survived the Age Of Legends to pass on their knowledge, until Asmodean did with Rand, 3000 years later.

 

All we know, is that Cadsuaine knew of the flaw in the Guardians, and exploited it to save the Dragon Reborn from captivity under Elaida.

I can't really agree with you on almost anything above.

The books do not give an indication one way or the other about a well being able to use saidan as it is only the 2 ladies that have them, but it would be highly likely that the same vulnerability is likely to exist in both. There is also no mention to the best of my knowledge that the wells themselves are unable to hold one or both powers as they are both under the control of the ladies.

All of wot civilization is anti saidan since the breaking till after the cleansing. The majority of the rest are distrusting of saidar at best and openly hostile at worst. The only thing setting Madding apart is the guardian in that respect.

Cadsuane knew of the flaw because she owned the well.

Far madding is not what I would consider an example of modern feminism. Where in our modern world are females allowed to physically beat males?

Men are also not totally restricted the traitors moved freely about the city as did Fain and Toram all without female chaperones.

2 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

The loophole applies to saidar, remember? Far Madding's Guardian completely blocked saidin in any fashion.

 

Wells of saidin would not work like the saidar ones did. The True Power, however was unrestricted, because only a few people knew of it, and all of them were either using it, or had access to it in the Age Of Legends, and they all served the Dark One.

 

Callandor is the exception to that, but only because it was unexplained how it could interact with the True Power that way, or how anyone could make it to do what it did without the Pattern.

 

The only things a stedding could not block was anything done that the weaves started, like a storm, or an earthquake.

I am not sure that the guardian blocks Saidan in the manner you state, however it is not relevant to the statement I made if Rand throws a rock, boulder or mountain from outside the guardian that object maintains it's velocity independently of the power. Allowing Rand to easily obliterate Far Madding without ever needing to engage with the dampening effects of the guardians.

There is zero knowledge of how the guardian would have been impacted by the True Power, my belief is that it would not have affected it but that is pure conjecture. The fact that the access key lit up indicates to me that Rand intended to use Saidan.

6 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

That is correct about Callandor. I just remember the access key glowing, and his comment on the Guardian only blocking the One Power.

 

I just assumed he was going to start throwing stuff into Far Madding. With the key he could throw a mountain into the city. For me it's the same loophole as Mat's medallion.

On 2/23/2024 at 2:50 AM, wotfan4472 said:

When Rand threatened to call lightning down on Far Madding, he stated the Guardians blocked the One Power only.

 

That comment means, he was about to draw on the True Power to do that attack, and use the Choedan Kal with it. The Guardians would not detect its use, or stop it.

 

A stedding by comparison, would stop that True Power attack as well, since they affect Shadowspawn, and they were made by both the One Power and True Power.

 

I also think that a stedding would neutralise a tied off weave, and as a result, I disagree with Brandon when he said a well would work in a stedding. I suspect any weaves used inside by tapping a well would not work, it would just either drain the well on the spot, or not work at all. 

The only item that was able to act as an angreal for the True Power was Callandor. Remember Moridin's surprise when he picked it up in the cave. Also Rand used the lure of the Choedan Kal to resist the pull of the True Power which would not have been the case if it could have been used to draw that power through it.

The stedding to the best of my knowledge where not created with the True Power at all.

On 2/24/2024 at 3:57 AM, Bugglesley said:

See below, a world map from the 1200s:

 

You will notice it is round. Medieval people (educated ones, anyway (and if that caveat makes you pause, I want you to consider for a moment if the (conservative estimate) 2/3s of Classical Greek society who were owned as property and illiterate were sitting around checking Eratosthenes's math)) knew full well the earth was round. Where medieval people were wrong was on geocentrism, but let's talk about that for a sec. Usually, and incorrectly, the Galileo affair is cited as the "dark ages church trying to hold back le epic science man when it was really "hey maybe don't write a book arguing your position where the Pope is clearly inserted as a character named 'dumbass.'" If you dig into the actual science, he was losing by the rules set out by the Greeks that the Church followed. The truth was only established when modern science started coalescing based on but in opposition to the model of inquiry established in Greece. The Scientific revolution was not some kind of return to Greek/Roman "science," it was a departure from Greek/Roman models that had been in active and continuous use and development.

 

The model being defended by the church in Galileo's trial was the Ptolemaic model. You will notice a funny word in the middle. Looks Greek idk.

 

"Healthcare declined," you say? Oh, you mean all those quacks assigning leeches because of Humors etc, right? Guess that ridiculous theory came from? Oh it was Greece.

 

There also were certainly no architectural advances.

Look at that! Romans very literally could never. They did not have the skill in stonework or access to glass or metalworking that allows this to exist. It was made from 1194–1248, smack in the so-called "dark ages." Fascinating.

 

Now, you can ask yourself, was it a social good that vast resources went into spending an entire human lifetime making those windows to glorify religion as opposed to other pursuits? Sure. But what, exactly, did resources flow into in the Roman period? Vast edifices for bloodsport, palaces for autocratic rulers, triumphal arches erected with the riches of conquered, plundered and enslaved people? Wow, great! Sign me up! Sounds like a wonderland of Scientific Rationality!

 

And I haven't even gotten to how "of course, it's a different story in Asia" is an insane thing to say, because knowledge is transferable. So how, exactly, was the world "held back" when the Silk Road and the Indian Ocean trade existed, allowing Asian advances and ideas to filter their way to Europe anyway?

 

You are arguing for this chart unironically:

And if you show it to any trained historian who has actually meaningfully engaged with the literature on Middle Ages Europe they will take one look at it and roll their eyes so hard they are in danger of muscle strain. Reverse image search the chart and you can have your pick of people with Ph.Ds dunking on it like it's the NBA all-star game. This is a good one.

 

The real answer to this thread is: anyone talking about linear "advancement" or "progress" or "Civilizational development level" has not a single clue how history or science actually work. It is not like Civilization where you unlock "techs" in a linear progression forwards until Gandhi gets nukes, nor is it like a train that can either go forwards or backwards. It's complicated and messy. People can know how to make gorgeous, vaulted ceilings and stained glass that the Romans could only have dreamed of while also having no idea how to mix concrete to make things the Romans made as a matter of course. Is that "forward" or "backward"? You have contact between pre-Columbian Americans and Europeans, and Tenochititlan is larger than any city in Europe, with better plumbing, more advanced and efficient agriculture (potatoes and corn are exactly as "natural" as high-yield wheat or rice), math and astronomy that put Ptolemy to shame... also, no large-scale ironworking and no wheels. How can you subscribe to a linear model in the face of this? (without being hideously racist and reductionist and claiming that the Aztecs/Mayans were "backwards savages" despite the obvious material evidence to the contrary, or by thuggishly claiming military conquest is the sole measure of a society's worth, and even that only by ignoring that estimates of up to 90% of the precolumbian population of the Americas died from a variety of virgin soil epidemics during that conquest and that the vast majority of Cortez's army was made up of Mesoamericans sick of the Aztec's shit).

 

Of course, complicating this is that RJ completely buys into a similarly deeply inaccurate paradigm of how history, societies, and "technology" develop. If only someone, anyone, had thought to make a school! There would be steam cars within months. Maybe you can chalk that up to "the Pattern said it was time" or whatever, but RJ's belief in Great Man history (ta'varen are people who are such Great Men that they literally distort reality around them) and the incorrect notion that scientific (and really all) advancement comes from the rare, singular genius who Figures It Out in a moment rather than broad, society-level incremental changes in understanding and economic and political contexts that are invariably necessary for those moments to happen.

 

And when that context includes big scary nightmare monsters smashing up the place every couple hundred years...?

 

Tl;dr medieval people weren't that dumb (or smart) and Roman people weren't that smart (or dumb). They were people who tried their best to understand the world around them in context that they lived, which included some degree of access to the knowledge of those who had come before. This process is not predetermined or linear, but it does build on itself. The whole premise of the OP is deeply misguided and the responses equally so.

Nice garbage word salad.

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Where was 6 million mentioned? I must have missed that.

 

We are talking about the 3 month period following the release of S2E8, so why should we assume “considerable S1 rewatches” took place during that stretch? Similarly, why should we assume “multiple rewatches” of S2 took place over that time period? Those seem like unfounded assumptions without data to support them. 

You responded too Jaccsen yesterday about the 5.9 million viewers.

I was adding some perspective to the numbers you posted and showing that they are probably not too separate to those posted by Jaccsen.

There are rewatch parties organized on twitter by various parties (including DM i think) I see multiple people saying they have watched episodes multiple times and I have often rewatched previous seasons prior to new seasons for shows that I have enjoyed. This IMO would have been particularly prevalent considering the extended break between season 1 and 2 for WoT.

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Putting some of this into perspective:

 

Based on @books of Robert Jordan's numbers as posted here, between October 23, 2023 and December 24, 2023, viewers watched 1.65 billion minutes of the Wheel of Time which works out to just over 103 million episodes watched in the 3 full months following the full release of season 2.

 

That's not bad. 

So thats,

103,000,0000/8 = 12,875,000 individual watches of each episode if we only assume that all watches are of S2. This is obviously not the case there would be considerable S1 rewatches and multiple rewatches from dedicated fans contained in those numbers. If you divide it by the full 16 episodes its close to the 6 million viewers number listed above.

It's hardly a stretch if you use our civilization as an example.

Take any period of 3000 years prior to industrialization occurring and there is not the explosion of advancement that has happened since that would indicate a marked difference.

Helen Mieren would be awesome she is a little thin but would be awesome apart from that.

7 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Outside of scientific or historical fields of study, the term "objective analysis" is an oxymoron and does not actually exist. 

 

You cannot offer a 100% unbiased and objective review, critique, or analysis of the quality of how something is written, regardless of your level of expertise, because your analysis is informed by your own understanding and knowledge and is therefore not actually objective.

Bollocks

Some parts are 100% open to factual objective analysis. If you break your own established world rules that is bad writing. If you write your characters to do something that is completely against anything that character would ever do then that is bad writing.

Are you telling me that if Rand pulled out a rocket launcher at the start of S3 and used it to kill Egwene that we could not objectively analyze that as bad writing.

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

What in the Stephen King did I just read?

I have no idea what its from I found just that passage reposted on a discord thread I think a few years ago.

1 minute ago, Scarloc99 said:

I am aware of that yes, but the writing of the whole scene is still really artificially done, he relies on the dropping of the spike triggering that moment, Androl had no idea the spike was going to be removed. There are a few moments in the books where BS relies on artifically generating tension through a series of very unlikely events. 

Not really Perrin was scouting the black tower because they suspected that a trap was being placed there. You could make the same exact argument for Nynaeve saving Rand from Rahvin.

26 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

So as I said I didn't agree with all these, but I am also aware I am both male and have 20 years of book reading, I do find myself, when I re read now days, thinking that if 43 year old me picked this series up now then I would think I was reading something written for teenage boys. I also think that we need to take someones opinion (hers) and see that it might have some validity, maybe not all the points, but if she is reading something and at a minimum feeling that it feels very dated (which it does in moments) then maybe it should be accepted that an adaptation will need bringing into the 2020's. 

Look I don't know the book starts in a conservative rural town in a feudal/agrarian world. Does that really need to be updated for modern audiences. It fits with the World that exists in the books and it's not like we don't get more cosmopolitan settings continuing on in the series. Did we really need Rand and Eggy to have sex in the common room of her parents Inn.

Not everything needs to be updated or changed to fit modern values. If the content fits the story then allow it too.

5 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

My big issue with Androl is how artificial his arc is, it just jars so much with the rest of the writing in the entire series. In particular, Brandon Sandersons need to create artificial tension around the dream spike, Perrin "suddenly closing it", it is just such bad writing that it sticks out a mile compared to the rest of the series. At no point did RJ need to create artificial tension in this way, the way he then also uses Androl as a get out of jail free card for other key moments.

I really liked Androl gave us an insight into the black tower.

You are aware that he opened the tiny gateway prior to Perrin removing the dreamspike. Then was hiding till he felt the spike barrier being removed.

I agree the book could have done with a reduction in the number of bosom usages. 

However I don't believe that the constant use of the folding arms beneath the breasts is an overtly sexual thing. It's more a writing device that RJ got over reliant on to show how a woman was thinking at certain times.

Slightly off topic and contains sexual descriptions but one of the weirdest sexual literary scenes I have ever seen. Always makes me laugh.

Again language warning before opening.

5 hours ago, Yamezt said:

 

 

Please fold your arms under your well-toned hunky pectorals, dudes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are a lot of descriptions about men being well built across the shoulders and upper bodies, especially like an axehandle across the shoulders, arms as big as legs and such.

10 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

The constant insistance that "men and women don't know what each other is thinking" the emphasis on the attractiveness of a women, the need to always emphasise "bosoms" very stereotypical ideas on the way men and women operate (men bluster around, women manipulate them to get things done), she actually said that for a fantasy series that is supposed to show women as being a central power in general women in the world still are not able to project real power in the story and instead have to rely on men to do that work for them with just a couple of exceptions, but even then Morgase is shown to have not had any real power when she was younger, having to use who she married to acquire it, and Tuon is presented as a petulant child, who yes is in charge, but is also a bad guy in it, she even said that Aes Sedai show this, an entire group of powerful females forced to restrict what they can do by a man, spending there lives manipulating and controlling because "thats what women are good at". Oh and nakedness, she said alot of female nakedness, which is ok in itself, why should a women getting topless be different to a man, but in her words "the author never bothers describing his male characters in the same way he does his female ones, uou never get a sense of the broadness of chest, or how they present themselves in the same way as you know for every female character if they are large or small breasted, pretty or plain etc. 

 

She did like that Ebou Dar at least is a culture where women have real genuine power, but said the fact that it is presented as being "odd" to outsiders emphasis how the rest of Randland is very much stuck in the "women stay at home" trope. She even found examples on characters I hadn't even thought of, Aludra, she asks would she have had as much trouble if she was a male illuminator. 

 

I don't agree with all her points, but I can't really disagree when she says the book feels like it was aimed at teenage/early 20's boys in much of the writing. I also can see her points that for all we try and say RJ created a world where women had power, they actually still only have that power largely at the behest of men. 

Cannot agree with most of this.

Morgase came to the throne as a weak monarch, nothing to do with her being female, and had to work hard to set herself up to reign in complete control.

Lol really Ebou Dar being odd as the only place woman have real power.

Sea Folk are a female led society

Aiel have both Wise ones and Clan leaders but i'll doubt that you will find anyone who will say it is not the Wise ones who are the true leaders.

Far Madding militantly run female city.

Womans Circles in the two rivers in the books were considered by most to be the real power in the towns.

Andor before Rahvin.

Tar Valon.

Seachan dominated by the Empress. Suroth in control of the return.

Ebou Dar is such an odd choice for her to pick as the most interesting in terms of female empowerment, it is nowhere near the most female power in the books, it also where their ruler rapes one of the heroes of the book.

Aludra I cannot think of anything that would have changed had she been male. She appeared to be a senior member of the chapter house, and then through unfortunate events outside her control was ousted and was pursued because they believed her selling guild secrets. I can't believe they would have reacted any differently to a man selling their secrets.

Tuon is never a petulant child. Some who initially see her believe her a child purely based on her size and some have views on nobility however these views are always wrong and immediately dispelled.

As for nakedness the cultures that embraced it like the Aiel, Borderlanders and a lesser extent the Seachan seemed to do it for all rather than one sex or the other. Yes the use of the word bosom is excessive. However there are also lots of descriptions of how broad men are built in axehandles, how they have well turned calves and talk of backsides as well. Galad is constantly talked about in terms of how beautiful he is.

As for the woman stay at home trope that you complain of. There are constantly business's run by females in all the cities.

57 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Jordan’s book was forward thinking for the day it was written in, it is also very dated today. I think people took that Rafe statement and ran with it in the wrong way. Any work adapted is changed to make it more palatable for the viewing audience, lord of the rings added in a whole plot line for a female character at the expense of a male one, added in more about romance because it was based off a book that regardless of its pedigree in some ways has not aged well. 
 

A friend read wheel of time for then first time recently after watching the tv show, she commented on how sexist Robert Jordan was in his writing and how glad she is the tv show is not like that. Some things age well, some things don’t and when something hasn’t aged well you change it. I have no doubt had RJ written WOT now then there would be a lot less of men are from mars women are from Venus writing in the relationships and he would have been emboldened to have been more open with the existence of same sex relationships in the world. He took the risks he could in the 90’s and he stuck on lane and played it safe where he felt he needed to. But he did take risks, risks that now days feel like they are behind the times we live in. 

What exactly did she find sexist in his writing?

19 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Not so.  In New Spring where we see Moiraine inducted into the blue she is then taught their secrets.

My knowledge of New Spring is not as strong as for the rest of the series. I did not think the secrets where secret weaves but things like eyes and eyes secrets and emergency codes and leaders of the Ajah. It would also be very hard to hide this weave as its use is remaining in place and would be seen by anyone able to channel if used.

But again this is just complete unfounded guessing to fill a plot hole.

The information we are provided is Aes Sedai cannot tie off weaves. 

8 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Alternatively the red's do know how to tie off weaves and keep it is an Ajah secret (in line with book lore about the Ajah's having their own secret weaves).

Ajahs did not have secret weaves in the books. Some sisters had small tricks or talents usually to do with wilders early contact with the source.