Well i'm done with this conversation.

For everyones benefit i was asked by a poster why it would be difficult to move the girls from the Tower to Falme. I responded with legitimate things that could cause issues and have been since constantly attacked for wanting to waste time the show is lacking. 

1 minute ago, notpropaganda73 said:

So you would rather see Nynaeve wander out of the Tower to the Waygate with two Novices and that's more realistic within the world of WoT to you than Darkfriends conspiring to load bodies onto a wagon at night time. 

 

Ok. 

 

 

Are you serious you think 3 woman leaving the tower on foot is more suspicious than three bodies being loaded onto a wagon or a horse.

11 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

As mentioned to you numerous times already, it is by no means a leap for Liandrin to have help from within the Tower to get them to the Waygate. For one, where she knocked them out is some secret path out of the Tower they have already set up in a previous episode when Nynaeve followed her, so I don't think getting them out of the Tower is necessarily difficult - did you have issues with a Novice wandering around Tar Valon? Because that's more of an issue to me than a high-ranking Black Ajah Aes Sedai on a mission from the leader of the Forsaken managing to move the 3 bodies to the Waygate.

 

Maybe she had some other Darkfriends meet her at this exit point from the Tower with a wagon, at night. And the three girls are loaded onto the wagon and they ride to the Waygate, where horses are waiting for them. Wow, what an exciting scene, I am devastated we did not get this absolute key scene to the entire series in the show, what a terrible adaptation, Rafe of Time, etc etc etc etc etc

Yes the novices roaming the tower has been an irritant, not as much however as them being able to gain access to the room housing the 3 arches Ter'angreal easily was though. Having a camp out down there was just insane.

My problem is its a shit plan. Anyone seeing 3 bodies loaded into a wagon is going to question WTF is going on. There is always a chance of being lucky and not being seen but it's a big chance to take. Why not have Nynaeve who you have built up a trust with simply meet you at the waygate.

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Honestly, for all the complaints about the show, wanting to waste time on exactly how Liandrin got them to Falme is hilarious. I can just hear the complaints if we'd seen the step-by-step: "We barely got any screen time for Mat this season but we had a whole stupid HOW TO KIDNAP episode UGHHHHH" 

 

 

It does not have to be step by step but if you cant see an issue with transporting 3 unconscious students through the inside of the tower into the stables and then to the waygate you are not taking the practicalities of the world seriously.

And I wholeheartedly agree with the desperate need to give more time to character development and world building.

The biggest issue is why the change from the book especially in this instance as they have gone out of there way to develop a connection between Nynaeve and Liandrin.

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I did deploy it because I’m sick of arguing with you about it. It’s a silly argument. 
 

I don’t need to know the details of the kidnapping and don’t think it was poorly written for failing to depict those details. I’m sorry that offends you so. 

You asked what was hard about it.

I responded then barely a couple of messages in you appear tired of it. Resorting to i don't care about how it happened.

I would still like to know how my answers where vague or evasive?

11 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This was my original comment on this issue. 
 

Then you hemmed and hawed: 

To which I replied that she could have had help. You kept arguing about it: 

 

At which point I got irritated and made the statement in question. 

Hemmed and hawed? How are any of those responses vague or evasive. They are legitimate concerns when faced with moving 3 bodies through a public and guarded place. They also address some of the concerns in regards to using the power in this situation.

Your only suggestion continues to be she could have had help to which I replied that it does not remove all of the concerns and there is no evidence of it.

And it is only brought up again now because you stated that you made several logical explanations before making the in question quote. It also feels like at this point you are distancing yourself from the logic of that quote and that you deployed it against me because you where sick of arguing with me about it.

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Correct! 

I have no idea what point you are trying to make or you think you have made. You are taking something that happened in the show and claiming that as something you suggested. 

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

And that she could put the girls over the horses. 

That was not in question we saw her leading the horses out of the ways. It was actually in the show!!!

39 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No. I presented several perfectly logical explanations for how it could be accomplished. You responded by claiming that I was making up my own explanations and that was indicative of bad writing. 
 

It was at that point that I washed my hands of this silly argument by making the statement you so enjoy quoting. 
 

 

Go back and look the only suggestion you provided before you apparently washed your hands and made the statement was, she might have had help.

10 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

It could be so applied only if you are desperate to engage in bad faith arguments. 
 

You are bellyaching about not seeing how the mechanics of the kidnapping played out and claiming that it is an example of terrible, amateurish writing.
 

And I’m telling you that in this universe, the existence of magic and Liandrin’s connection to the Black provide an easy explanation that need not be depicted on screen. The rules of this world make the logistics of the kidnapping unimportant. 

Rubbish.

You quoted me asking what was so hard about how she got them to Falme.

I responded with a number of things that would have caused serious issues.

You then dismissed this with an argument that basically boils down to the it's space wizards for children and criticized the rise of skywalker, to which I pointed out that the defense you applied was almost an exact fit for that very movie.

47 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make?

 

The writing for the last Star Wars film (The Force Awakens?) was far worse than WoT at its worst.

The point is fairly obvious in that all the points you raised in the 2nd quote i provided could just as easily be attributed to the SW sequels as your use of them to dismiss my concerns with the plan she used. 

All 3 SW sequels are examples of terrible writing. Force awakens is the best of the 3. But they are all disgraceful.

31 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Moiraine has a tell. 🫠

LOL

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

but then Lanfear would have been less likely to fall for the trick

 

and as someone pointed out, leading a riderless horse slows one down

I suppose its a question of whether you are after long term speed or a burst. Sending the 4th horse with the woman would have made it harder to follow as well since it would be 2 set of 2 horse tracks. Incredibly lucky for Lanfear that the other guy showed up.

5 hours ago, Gypsum said:

 

Have you been around many horses? Put a tarp where one shouldn't be, and you're playing with their fears. But they'd be outta there in seconds at the first inkling of Machin Shin. No doubt about that.

 

More seriously, I don't think RJ knew horses, either. I laughed at all the passages in the books where they walked straight through gateways, or straight into the Ways, or didn't bolt into next week at the sight of a Myddraal (my gelding panics when umbrellas walk towards him). It's not like people spent hours practicing Ways-loading before they had to use them under desperate circumstances.

 

I liked episode 5. Good TV, which is all I want out of it. I expect it to take diversions from the books because it has to condense a lot and make enough sense out of it all for non-book readers to follow.

 

The only think I didn't like was Moiraine killing the horse. Come on, Moiraine. There had to be a better way to solve your problem.

Taking the horse would have helped them as they could rotated horses to keep them more fresh.

31 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Dude. Literally all she needed was a carriage and two burly helpers to get the girls inside. You are overthinking it. 
 

This is not Oochie’s random dagger or writing that does nothing to create conflict between the protagonist and antagonist. This is hand waving a not particularly critical piece of information to get to the parts that matter. 
 

You are emotionally invested in the show being poor and refuse to see anything that doesn’t fit that narrative. 

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

In a show where people can do magic, raise people from the dead, speak to one another in dreams, talk to wolves, see visions of the future and where the spirits of the long dead are being resurrected to bring about the end to time, you want me to worry about the logistics of how three people are kidnapped. 
 

pass. 

When you start a defense for your argument that includes the second quote how can you seriously criticize any other media.

The sequel star wars movies almost literally cover every point you make in the 2nd quote yet from your comment you appear to not see it as quality writing. Surely looking at those points you make you must see some cross over.

31 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

In a show where people can do magic, raise people from the dead, speak to one another in dreams, talk to wolves, see visions of the future and where the spirits of the long dead are being resurrected to bring about the end to time, you want me to worry about the logistics of how three people are kidnapped. 
 

pass. 

Ahh the good old its a story about space wizards intended for children argument. A very poor argument. Internal consistency is vital at a fundamental level for good writing.

27 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No, no. I was responding to your comment that there was no way to get them through the Ways while unconscious. I simply pointed out that that could be achieved exactly as it was depicted in the show - by rendering g the women unconscious and putting them over their horses.
 

You then moved the goalposts to how they were removed from the tower grounds, to which my response is that it is not hard for me to believe that Liandrin could accomplish the kidnapping given her connection to the dark. 

But then you have to physically move 3 bodies all the way to Flame, very difficult as well.

Is the quote you used. I'm sorry but I would consider the start of the journey to be part of the movement to Falme not just the portion in the ways.

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No. I’m offering explanations because IT DOESN’T MATTER TO ME. It’s the type of picayune little triviality that can be pointed out in nearly every tv show and that 80% of people never even notice, much less bother to think deeply about. 
 

But sure. We’ll go with “WORST WRITING EVER!!” 

You are filling in the holes with explanations you are making up with no evidence to support your rewriting.

And again you asked me what was hard about the plan that was actually used in the show and have since just decided that all the issues I pointed out are now meaningless.

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

You entirely discount the idea of her having assistance. She’s a high ranking dark friend on a mission important to the Forsaken.  

Even having assistance does not make moving 3 bodies unseen any easier. Seeing 3 unconscious and bound students being moved in the tower is going to raise a mountain of questions.

And you are writing the script for the show and filling in plot holes because of your desire for it to work.

27 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

 

Or it was a vast conspiracy 

 

 

 

 

 

?

Yeah maybe what really happened is Liandrin was really sculpted out of clay and she suddenly remembered a trick her father used to turn an island invisible and that she had used to turn a cup invisible and she mastered that ability to move them out of the tower unseen.

6 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I’m sorry that this detail breaks the suspension of disbelief for you. For me, it could have been accomplished by any number of methods and showing me exactly how it was accomplished is unnecessary. 
 

I will respectfully disagree with your conclusion that it was “terrible”. 

You asked me for the reasons why it was hard to accomplish the things required using her plan. And now you are just flat out ignoring those valid reasons.

10 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

As demonstrated when they came out of the ways, Liandrin was knocking the girls out and draping them over their horses. Why is that hard? Especially when you can use the OP to accomplish all the lifting.

Well ok.

First you have to shield 3 channelers by yourself.

Then you have to transport 3 unconscious students through the tower and into the stables all without being seen.

Then further you have to ride said horses with unconscious and bound students to the waygate even if you assume that the waygate is located inside all the guard checkpoints that would require an amazing amount of luck.

As for the using the power to lift in the books I think Siuan says that she used to be able to lift about 3 times her bodyweight before her severing so splitting that into 3 flows and keeping it up for at least the distance to the stables would probably be very difficult.

There are lots of other potential difficulties that time would have caused to this plan but since the show basically skips all travel it's impossible to tell.

It was a terrible change, terribly written and thought out from start to end. It makes even less sense because in the show unarguably Nynaeve trusts Liandrin more than the books making the use of a trick far more likely to be successful.

Another terrible episode.

The worst part the absolutely hilarious scene when the girls get dropped off to the Seachan.

Soldiers march away from Seachan take the girls from the horses then drop them at the side then march all the way back to the patrol. WTF. Why not keep the prisoners with you.

Damane fail to realize that she has removed the shields and freed the girls using the power.

Can't imagine Ishmael will be thrilled when he finds out that Liandrin released them.

Then what appears to be a pathetic chase scene.

Another hilarious palanquin.

Fight scene with Perrin and Avi was terrible so many quick cuts so dark. A real let down when the blood snow was one of the better components of the first season. Did appear at one point that the white cloaks could have just struck Perrin down but did not.

Season continues to lurch from poor to crap to dumpster fire.

59 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Don't need to shield them, if they're unconscious!

 

It's the same way Benadryl works with Allergies.

But then you have to physically move 3 bodies all the way to Flame, very difficult as well. Keeping them unconscious also means you have to find a way to feed them and keep them from soiling themselves unless you want very messy travel conditions.

7 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Book 2 had quite similar stuff and much more of it. How many letters did Rand burn before attending the ball?

What bollocks.

The lead up to Rand being mistaken for a player in the game was far more detailed in the books.

Rand was dressed as a lord in the books thanks to Moiraines removing his old clothes

Rand in company with the Lady Selene is found at the site of a project involving The King of Cairhein along with what it appears to be a serving man in Hurin who is extremely deferential to Rand.

Rand is questioned by guards at the site before being escorted to the capital by the soldiers.

After arriving he is sent invitations by small houses because of the news of the outland lord poking around the Kings excavation.

He then through nativity burns the invitations which excites further interest in his status.

In the show he is a guy who lives in the foregate works in the city and gatecrashes a party and stole some wine.

That is not bloody similar.

44 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Except that the show proves you wrong because Moiraines sister knew was watching him very closely and knew where he was, she told Moiraine over tea, so she had everyone watching him, and she had them watching him because of what he did at the dinner. She came up to him and in so many words told him she and everyone else would now be spying on him. It is there, in the show. If someone is spying on him so fully in the city then it makes sense that they would find out where he has been travelling to outside the city, Lanfer constantly underestimates everyone in the books so it is totally to type that she has no concept of what her playing Rand and trying to get him to become a lord might do to the wider scheme of things, or she knew exactly what she was doing but didn't think through the consequences of putting him so definitively on everyones radar.  

The show clumsily tells us that despite it making no sense. It is terrible storytelling.

The book shows the path that led from a nobody to someone inadvertently gaining notice at the highest levels.

The show could announce to us that mechanical robots that disguise themselves as cars exist it would make it true for the show but not any less stupid in universe.