25 minutes ago, henrywho said:

 

Ah it's all perfectly clear to me now!

In your dictionary "adapted" and "obliterated" have a similar meaning. Of course, now you're making sense.

 

You do realise that with every episode still to come as with every episode already shown that the series will get further and further away from the books. Rosamund Pike not only plays Moiraine Damodred she is one of the producers. In the books Moiraine disappears for a long time. Possibly for most of a book. I can't remember exactly but it's a very long time. This will not happen in the series. Rosamund Pike is a fine actress but she is not going the let herself be written out for that amount of time.

Perrin was not married in the books until much later, after book 4 at least. In his current condition the writers are going to have to perform some logic defying plot gymnastics to get him in any condition close enough to feel enough positive emotions to ever marry! That being said these writers are not particularly good or consistent so I should not be surprised by anything that the show does. 

Every change they make now ripples forward

 

I’m sorry it hasn’t worked for you so far. Maybe the challenges of writing season 3 and beyond will be too much, but so far I’m quite enjoying it. I’m excited to see what happens. 

16 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Right from the top of my head, his journey with Egwene from Shadar Logoth. Almost every time his face is on the screen aside from that, almost. Like most people he has his moments.

I don’t follow. He was dogged in defense of Egwene. Protective of her with everyone they encountered. Determined to find Rand. Exactly the qualities you described. 

35 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Some how I missed that... You are CLEARLY watching a different adaptation, please send me a link to the one you are viewing.

Forthright: characterized by directness in manner or speech; without subtlety or evasion. That aptly describes Perrin in the show. 
 

Staunch: loyal and committed in attitude. Again, aptly describes Perrin in the show. 
 

Determined: processing or displaying resolve. Once again, apt. 
 

Can you please explain where Perrin in the tv show fails to display these qualities?

Just now, henrywho said:

I get that later on he is fearful of hurting people because of his wolf abilities but I got no message, hidden or otherwise, from the death of his non-existent wife except it made him sad and regretful.

It isn’t later on. And it isn’t exclusively to do with his abilities as a wolfbrother. Perrin’s core trait is his fear of hurting others because he is big and strong and feels like a bull in a china shop. 
 

That’s awfully hard to put on screen. So they changed it and made it more visceral. I didn’t love it, but it made the point: Perrin is overly cautious about hurting people because he’s afraid to hurt someone he loves. This is only going to get worse as he gets more wolfish - just like in the books. 

1 minute ago, henrywho said:

Clumsy is not moping or dreary or so down you feel a need to slap him silly.

No one said otherwise. Nor have I ever felt the need to slap a fictional character. 

Just now, henrywho said:

Remember in the books he didn't kill his non existent wife and turn into a blubbering mess. His only self concerns are his eye colour and the abilities that came with them. 

Yep. I do remember that. Giving him a slightly different backstory that serves to externalize his fear of harming others didn’t ruin his character for me. I’m sorry it did for you. 

Just now, henrywho said:

I'm sorry it must be a while since you read the books. Perrin is forthright, staunch and determined in the books. Not a sorrowful, moping, lummox.

He’s forthright, staunch and determined in the show. He also, somewhat famously, considers himself to be a clumsy lummox in the books. 

Just now, henrywho said:

As I said the Series and the books share a name and little else.

As I said, I disagree entirely. It is still the Wheel of Time, adapted for television. 

Just now, henrywho said:

I have to disagree. Both Mat and Perrin have been. They are NOTHING like the book characters aside from some superficial similarities. Their personalities are unrecognisable.

I find Perrin very true to his book personality. Mat is certainly further away from where he is in the books but, (a) he hasn’t had much screen time; and (b) Mat wasn’t very well formed by this point in the books either. 

1 minute ago, henrywho said:

Mat is one of my favourite characters from the books. "wasn’t handled well" is an understatement, he was destroyed and for that matter Perrin even more so. Who is this sullen, dull, completely unlikable boy that can commune with wolves. Certainly not the bloke by the same name from the books! and don't get me started on Min!

No one was “destroyed”. Characters have been altered, some more than others obviously. It remains to be seen whether the more controversial changes will be paid off. 
 

I can certainly understand why people would dislike some of the changes. But then again, simply not watching is an option if you find the changes too dramatic. 

2 minutes ago, henrywho said:

I state categorically that the two worst casting choices are Madeleine Madden and Josha Stradowski. These two are so wrong for the parts it's indescribable.

I completely disagree. I find both actors to be perfect for their roles. Indeed, I find the acting to be outstanding across the board and is, in fact, the strength of the show. 

1 minute ago, henrywho said:

The fact that this theft and sale is never touched on again…

More accurately, it hasn’t been touched on since. That doesn’t mean it won’t ever be. But there is no question that Mat wasn’t handled well in S1. 
 

There are multiple factors involved, including the fact that the actor quit mid season. 

2 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Mat STOLE the bracelet. There is no WATCHING of the episode that any other conclusion can be draw!

It’s certainly intimated that Mat stole the bracelet. But he could have gambled for it or seduced the young lady into giving it to him. 

16 minutes ago, Samt said:

I really feel that all other factors aside, they needed to plan on making the series within a 10 year span at tops.  If they want 8 seasons, they need a season a year.  Anything less and it just drags on way too long in real time.  Right now it looks like they are only hitting a season every other year and I find it hard to see how you get to 8 at that rate without the project falling apart.

To be fair, COVID skewed the production schedule for the first 2 seasons. I think they’re going to try for a season every 18 months or so. 

2 hours ago, Elendir said:

If I am doing specific scenes from book, than it should carry same messages and not tell entirely something else.

Why though? Sometimes scenes are capable of delivering multiple meanings or are better used to serve a different purpose from the ones they served in the books. 

2 hours ago, Elendir said:

Showing somebody, who hold composure through dialogue, that he was in distress actually isn't difficult.

I agree with you here. If the purpose of the scene was for Rand to hold his composure as he did in the books, that would not have been difficult to place on screen. At least with a good actor, which Mr. Stradowski is.

2 hours ago, Elendir said:

Not kneeling is hardly sign of arrogance. Especially when Rand stand before already.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, Elendir said:

Siuan went from "understanding that Dragon need to be free to grow" to "obsessed with control".

Also agreed. The show writers have changed Siuan's character somewhat - or rather, they have changed Siuan and Moiraine's understanding of what they were to do with the Dragon. (Moiraine's having developed over the course of the show as she begins to understand more fully what they are facing).

2 hours ago, Elendir said:

Rand grow through story as grow obstacles on his path. Not-hostile Amyrlin is far from dificultis which await him.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but you are correct. There are bigger dangers ahead than simply a hostile Siuan. The reason for the change, however, is that they have slowed Rand's growth. They want to be able to depict him growing in his power in a more linear fashion than what Jordan wrote in the books. The scene was thus meant to convey that, powerful as he is Rand is still not able to contend with the power of the Amyrlin. Because he lacks training and understanding, the Aes Sedai are able to force him to kneel. (See where I'm going with this yet?)

Further, it gives viewers a more visceral reason to engage with Rand's growing hostility toward the Aes Sedai. In the books, we are told that Aes Sedai are controlling. But it's still often very unclear why Rand is so distrusting of them. None of them ever do anything to even inconvenience him until he is well established as the Dragon. By changing the scene, the writers have given viewers a very memorable foundation for him to distrust the Aes Sedai. (I suspect that they will use Moiraine to illustrate the counterpoint - which is that while the distrust of Aes Sedai is justified, there is madness underneath it that leads to paranoia. Rand shouldn't trust Aes Sedai in general, but he should trust Moiraine.)

3 hours ago, Elendir said:

Zen Rand acknowledged that Rand who started the journey was important aspect of him. So comment that he need to grow enough to have backbone isnt correct, when his stubbornness was shown from beginning.

But we've already seen this Rand. His 'stubborn' nature has been on display many times during the show. It didn't need to be demonstrated in this scene.

This change is not a bad one, in my opinion.

7 minutes ago, Samt said:

All character growth is internal.  But there are easy ways to show it externally.  

My point is that Perrin's growth in WoT is almost all depicted in his own inner monologue. Thus, the need to create scenes for him to display it externally.

40 minutes ago, Samt said:

My claim is that the changes are unnecessary and they could have easily developed Perrin while keeping very close to the timeline and events of the book.  They didn't need to make changes because "the internal monologues made it impossible to develop Perrin without significantly altering the timeline and events."  The books don't really rely wholly on internal monologues to develop the characters and where they do use them the same ideas can be conveyed through acting and dialogue.

I think this is where we diverge.

Perrin's growth, even in the early books, is mostly internal. While I think they could have stuck closer to the books with him, I still think they needed something to more dramatically establish Perrin's inner conflict. In the books we hear about how he is a gentle giant, always patient, always cautious, always afraid of hurting others because he's so much bigger. All of that is internal. As readers, we understand that he is slow to violence because that's an established part of his character.

The show needed a way to dramatize that in a quick way. I would have gone with Brandon Sanderson's approach - have him accidentally kill Master Luhan. But the killing of his wife did the job - it gave you a very dramatic moment that establishes a reason for Perrin's passivity. Viewers aren't going to forget that like they would a few lines of untethered dialogue.

5 minutes ago, Samt said:

In regards to the dialogue with the Tinkers, some of it is included in the show, but by cutting Elyas and not having Perrin speak as much, they make the whole thing unclear. 

I’m not sure what you mean here. I think the Way of the Leaf was well explained in Season One. 

If you’re saying that it did not work to develop Perrin, I agree to some extent. I would also have kept Elyas and spent more time with Perrin’s wolf side in S1. I think they slowed Perrin and Mat down in service to the “Who is the Dragon” idea, which flopped. 
 

On the other hand, I do think they have established Perrin’s hesitancy to use violence early and did a better job in S2 of subtly developing the tension between man and wolf. 
 

35 minutes ago, Samt said:

A.  Not sure that doesn't run afoul of copyright laws.

Not with proper source attribution.

35 minutes ago, Samt said:

The relevant scenes are in chapter 25 and chapter 30 of TEotW.  Towards the end of chapter 25 and the beginning of chapter 30.

Interesting...

The dialogue at the end of chapter 25 involves Raen telling Perrin and Elyas about meeting the Aiel. The dialogue between Perrin and the Tinkers in Chapter 25 was recreated ... in some points verbatim ... in Season 1, episode 3. 

The dialogue at the beginning of chapter 30 encompasses two pages in my edition. It is a great bit of dialogue. The true importance of the exchange, however, takes place in Perrin's internal monologue.

Quote

Perrin raised the axe to throw it in the pool, but Elyas caught his wrist. 

"You'll use it, boy, and as long as you hate using it, you will use it more wisely than most men would. Wait. If ever you don't hate it any longer, then will be the time to throw it as far as you can and run the other way."

Perrin hefted the axe in his hands, still tempted to leave it in the pool. Easy for him to say wait. What if I wait and then can't throw it away. '

 

--Robert Jordan, "The Eye of the World" (Second Edition Hardcover, October 2020) ch. 30 p. 441. 

The notion that this single exchange between Elyas and Perrin would, by itself, be sufficient to establish Perrin's core character trait is silly. While good, the dialogue has no particular hook, it does not occur at a pivotal moment, or during a scene of great tension. It would be quickly forgotten.

Now this dialogue could still find its way into the show, helping to further emphasize Perrin's already established discomfort with violence. After all, Perrin did not have an axe when he met the Tinkers. And he did not encounter the Tinkers while he was with Elyas, so in the show there has been no occasion to juxtapose the Wolfbrother with the Way of the Leaf. 

If/when that juxtaposition does occur, it will have additional weight to it given the contrasts that have been established through the first two seasons of the show. This is dramatically different from the books where Perrin reflects internally on this discussion over the course of the next 11 books. In the books, it works. We get to hear Perrin's thoughts. On the screen, it wouldn't work at all. 

53 minutes ago, Samt said:

I don't have to write them.  These scenes literally exist in the book.  Perhaps the dialogue would need to be altered somewhat because of things they did or didn't include in the show, but the same idea could be maintained.  If necessary, you could add a bit to the dialogue.  At the beginning of chapter 30, for instance, after Elyas says that Perrin should throw away the axe if he ever likes using it, Perrin tries to ask, but can't, "What if I wait and then can't throw it away?"  That could easily be added as a line for Perrin to actually say, maybe as Elyas is walking away and doesn't hear it.  

 

Perrin has a discussion with Raen and says that he would hit someone back if he or she hit him in chapter 25.  This scene actually sort of exists in the show except that Elyas isn't there and the detail is cut (and Perrin doesn't advocate for self defense in the show).  

Then pull them from the books and post them here. 

20 minutes ago, Samt said:

Perrin is actually incredibly easy to build through conversations with Elyas and the Tuathon

Okay. I’m intrigued. Let me see your script. Not the whole thing, just the dialogue that will build Perrin via conversation between him, the Tinkers, and Elyas. 

1 hour ago, Samt said:

But movies and shows do this all of the time.

Most movies and tv shows aren’t adapting source material that relies heavily on internal monologues for character development the way WoT does. 
 

You’re conflating the POV with the internal monologues of the POV characters. A great deal of the motivation for all of the main characters in WoT is expressed via internal monologue, which means that much of the character development occurs entirely within the characters’ heads. That’s difficult to film, no matter how great your actors. 
 

The solution is to externalize those internal conflicts. Which is what the writers are trying to do.

2 minutes ago, Samt said:

 GoT is also written in the same type of POV and adapted the early seasons in an engaging way while changing very little of the story.

GoT is a poor comparison. First of all, GRRM cut his teeth writing for television and the books are structured in a way to make them far more easy to adapt. They are heavy on dialogue and very light on internal monologue. 

On the other hand, WoT relies heavily on the characters' internal monologues. Rand's madness, Egwene's political maneuverings, virtually all of Perrin's character development occur almost entirely inside their thoughts. You seem to think it's super easy to just film that, it's not.

I'd like to see you take a crack at writing a season. Tell me how easy it is to script.

8 hours ago, Samt said:

The POV problem is just an excuse for lazy writing and directing

No it isn’t. It is a massive problem that will dog any writer trying to adapt the series for the reasons stated above. 
 

Your question about Lan is a complete non-sequitur. As you point out Lan has few POV chapters (he has 25 total all coming after ToM or in New Spring), but pointing that out does not answer @expat’s question. 
 

You can like or dislike Lan’s characterization in the show (I’m on the record saying that I dislike it), but it is not an answer to the question. 

38 minutes ago, Elendir said:

It change core character. TV Show Rand wouldn't succeed if we respect character integrity. Book Rand didn't kneel in front of any challenge, his own death, torture. It was his character atribute. TV show Rand kneel easily. How will he stand against what await him?

No. TV Rand’s growth has been slowed down, which allows it to progress more naturally than in the books. (Rand is basically nerfed after Book 3). I think you’ll find him develop his power and the arrogance you’re looking for this season.