Just now, henrywho said:

You've taken him out of the context of his and my discussion and what you have said here I inferred in my reply to him. Except the point, in the context of his and my discussion, that the deliberate subversion of the Aiel truth does contradict his statement.

No. It doesn't at all. 

“The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."

What does "memories become legend" mean? Well, a legend is defined as:

Quote

An unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical.

Thus, the phrase means that the real memories of the people who experienced the events are retold and altered, causing those events to be sensationalized and diverting from the actual facts of what happened.

How about "Legend fades to myth"? Well a myth is: 

Quote

A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society.

So, the phrase means that the legendary stories that have been created from real events are further sensationalized, becoming supernatural and entirely removed from the actual facts of what happened.

@Kaleb's original proposition was entirely correct. And you've entirely missed one of the key themes of the novels. (Not to mention that your notion that the theme of the Wheel of Time is that 'good will prevail if we make good choices' is not even close to a core theme.)

25 minutes ago, henrywho said:

I find it insulting that anyone, especially the writers of this series, could have the gall to believe they could do a better job of TWoT than the author. It's clear that's how they think or they would have stayed the course and adhered more closely to the books. I know a word for word scene for scene reproduction is impractical for the most part. But these ... "writers" have made fundamental changes from the 1st episode and they naturally cascade through the rest of their story now. IF they had managed the miracle of making a better story I'd be among the first to congratulate them. But they have not. Not only have they not but they have detracted from it significantly.

It should go without stating, but I feel a need to, that these are my opinions, shared by others as are most opinions are, even if they do not contribute here.

And you have communicated that. But again, this is a forum designed for elevated, reasoned discussion. It is not a Reddit thread for spleen venting about how much you hate the show. Your hyperbolic tone is the opposite of what we are after here. It is possible, easy even, to have articulate, polite and reasoned discussion about the things you don't like about the show without resorting to these type of gatekeeping statements.

The overwrought language is exhausting and detracts from the enjoyment people find here.

46 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Everything I wrote contradicts it. His point was to suggest that the lie the majority of the Aiel live under, regards their own history, affirms his statement about all stories being misunderstandings etc etc. I stated that it is not as the Aiel story is a deliberate alteration by them a flat out lie.

One of the themes running through the Wheel of Time novels is how imperfect information and poor communication leads to problems, even at a societal level. To illustrate this, @Kaleb wrote, "many potential Aiel leaders are so invested in their self-conception as a proud warrior culture that they literally claw their eyes out when faced with a version of the truth that undermines the story they've been telling themselves." This is entirely true. It doesn't matter whether the story of the Aiel was deliberately subverted or subverted unintentionally, @Kaleb's statement is correct in every respect.

Just now, henrywho said:

 

I have a brain and free will. All I am doing here is stating an opposite opinion to the statement "adds to the richness of the dialogue". A statement I fervently disagree with. There is no arbitration only and emphatic declaration of opinion.

Saying something is an insult to the source material is not the opposite of saying that the changes “add to the richness of the dialogue.”

The opposite would be to say that the dialogue is poor, or wooden, or derivative or that it detracts from the character or doesn’t match the tone, etc. 

The opposite of “insulting the source material” would be a claim that the show is superior to the books in all respects and is a clear improvement over the original. 

3 minutes ago, henrywho said:

No again. The Aiel point you make here is incorrect. The Aiel story, in the books at least, was deliberately changed by, we can assume, the wise ones so as to try and hold the Aiel together. Common knowledge of the truth about their split and self exile to the 3 fold land would have destroyed their community completely, or so it was felt. They, or at least some in authority, chose to alter the truth. This is fundamentally different to your point. A point of course I do not agree with.

You didn’t say anything here that contradicts @Kaleb’s point. 

12 minutes ago, henrywho said:

I am not. It detracts from the original until it varies so much from the source to insult it.

Again. Please refrain from this type of language. You are not in the position to arbitrate what constitutes an “insult”

to the source material. 

Just now, Samt said:

So they use the Bowl of the Winds to trap Moridin and re-bind the dark one?  How does that work?

I’m hypothesizing a change that could potentially break the series for me. I’ll not know “how it works” until I see it. 
 

I can say it’s hard for me to fathom that being a workable change. But I wouldn’t know if it worked until I saw it. That’s how hypotheticals work. 

1 minute ago, henrywho said:

So now anyone could have walked up and taken it... so why haven't one of the dark ones done so.

Obviously I can’t tell you that since it’s a hypothetical. Which is my entire point. I can’t judge something that I haven’t seen. 

1 minute ago, henrywho said:

So not a fan after all. No loyalty to the authors efforts and imagination. No respect for the, literally, countless hours of work by the author and the efforts of family and friends. This is not just a statement about TWoT it refers to every book YOU have ever read that was adapted in some way and strayed as far as TWoT has from the source material!

The series is little better than a POORLY written fan-fiction loosely based on some of the Robert Jordan books. It is an insult to the memory and efforts of Robert Jordan.

This type of gatekeeping is frowned upon here. You are in no position to judge whether someone is a “real fan” or whether they have “loyalty to” or “respect for” Mr. Jordan and Mr. Sanderson. Nor are you entitled to determine what Mr. Jordan would consider to be an insult. 
 

Please refrain from making these types of comments moving forward as they are not conducive to discussion and often devolve into name calling and mean spiritedness. 

14 minutes ago, Samt said:

So how do you credibly judge that it's still Wheel of Time if basically anything could change and you wouldn't say that it was no longer Wheel of Time?

It’s very hard to judge things in a vacuum. For instance, I could see a reworking of the plot where Callandor is exchanged for the Bowl of the Winds and is found by Nyn and Elayne. This would be a huge change from the books and I could very easily find that it doesn’t work at all. On the other hand, it could be written very well and work flawlessly. My perception of whether it was still the “Wheel of Time” would depend entirely on the execution. 

17 hours ago, fearbrog said:

I remember after Tarwin's Gap people said how it wasn't that important and we gonna see Rand shine in Falme, we need to wait and be exited for Season 2. After s2e8 people said it was unrealistic to expect battle in Sky and it would be not good on TV, so we need to wait and be exited for Season 3. Now you saying he's not really a Dragon yet, despite Moiraine proclaim him, so if s3 wont show Callandor or it will be obtained by, let's say Moiraine, will you say to wait for Season 4?

I don’t really put much stock into “people said”, so I’ll just recap my own thoughts and feelings:

(1) S1E8 was bad. (Less so on the 2nd and 3rd watches, but still bad.) I decided to overlook its flaws because of the challenges presented by COVID and the departure of Barney Harris. 
 

(2) I never thought there would be a battle in the sky and was unconcerned about it from the beginning. In fact, I was a little surprised they kept Falme at all. I expected them to ditch it altogether or combine it with the attack on the Stone. 
 

(3) I really liked S2. I enjoyed the changes and the characters and felt the writing was much improved. 
 

(4) I mostly liked S2E8. Egwene getting free of the collar wasn’t great (I wish they would have let Elayne and Nyn participate), and I thought some of it was a but cheesy, but overall I felt it was a solid episode. 
 

(5) I’m not worried at all about Rand’s development. They slowed some stuff down. But I’m confident that we will get to see him doing more training, having

more interactions with Mat and Moiraine and Lan in S3. 

17 hours ago, fearbrog said:

Funny how Rand needs to be nerfed, but certain character already best healer in both book and show canon, capable to be first to break from literally unbreakable from inside ancient artifact and stall Forsaken

I assume you’re referring to Egwene. But you get so much wrong here. Egwene is not the best healer in the books or the show: that honor falls to Nyn. 
 

She didn’t really stall Ishy at all. She was his cat’s paw. Ishy used her to give the illusion that he was trying to accomplish something when he was really just trying to trick Rand again. 

8 minutes ago, fearbrog said:

Mostly Rand. He has no human connections he had in books, no Lan, no Thom, no Loyal, no Hurin, no Ingtar. All he does is have sex with Egwene and Lanfear, he doesn't explore, doesn't wander in castle, has no sword.  He literally fails to villain scheme in season 1 finale in stark contrast to Egg who saves a day. He doesn't lead fight at Falme, he doesn't sacrifice himself and got stabbed by his "friend", after being humiliated by Siuan.

I don't see this as quite the dire situation that you do. He has human connections in the show - we know Mat, Egwene and Perrin are all important to him. We know Moiraine is important.

He didn't "fall victim" to Ishy's scheme in Season 1, he won the necessary battle by refusing Ishy's offer of his version of paradise (doing so precisely because of one of those human connections). 

They have greatly slowed Rand's growth in the show (avoiding the problem where he completely disappears for most of an entire book). But emotionally, he is right where he should be at this point. Unsure of himself, unsure of his powers, distrustful of everyone around him (for some reasons which are legitimate and others which are not). He has yet to embrace himself as the Dragon, but is beginning to realize that he can't hide from his destiny.

In the books, he decides to take Callandor to prove the prophecies true or false and in so doing, he comes to truly accept himself as the Dragon. We have yet to see how the show will handle this. One of the reasons I'm so excited for Season 3!!

17 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Also think on this, they will not make 13 or 14 seasons of the series. That means massive condensing and editing. Editing as in cutting out entire character arcs and the like.

Obviously. If you want the books, you're gonna have to read the books. There's no way any series (even an animated one that some people are clamoring for) can adapt the entire saga without massive condensing and editing.

19 minutes ago, henrywho said:

the poor casting,

Again, I disagree strongly. I think the casting (and by extension, the acting) is the strongest part of the series thus far. The writing has been the weakest.

21 minutes ago, henrywho said:

The entire Mat and the daughter of the nine moons arc could easily be cut and replaced with a single scene that brings the Saunchen onto the side of Rand.

Highly doubt this, since they have already mentioned "the Daughter of the Nine Moons" in the show.

5 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Mostly because I have imagination enough to imagine how much better this show would be if it stuck to the books.

It would be unfilmable as written. But I would be very interested in seeing someone's "more accurate" treatment. I think it could be made to hew closer to the original, but I don't know that the finished product would be as engaging.

I certainly think the series would have been better served if the writers had not tried to play "Who is the Dragon" in S1. I know what they were going for, but it was never going to work. Still, S2 was a huge improvement.

Just now, henrywho said:

I'm a big fan of Rosamund…

 

Not invested enough or not being listened to, I hope it's the latter.

Why would you hope people would not listen to her narration if you’re a “big fan”? 

1 minute ago, henrywho said:

It is an interesting side effect, very probably because of the vehement critical comparisons to the books, that since the show started book sales have increased.

It could go something like this for someone after watching the first season. "I enjoyed that. But I read that the lovers of the books criticise the drastic changes and state the books the be much better etc etc I think I'll read the book."

Is that a bad thing? Books are ALWAYS better than their film versions. So what difference does it make what the motivation for picking up the books might be?

4 minutes ago, henrywho said:

The two stories only show vague similarities

This is the silliest kind of hyperbole, by the way. There are far more than “vague similarities” between the two. I have a hard time taking anybody seriously when they resort to these types of overwrought dramatics. 

46 minutes ago, fearbrog said:

how show shatters certan aspects of books and completely destroys storylines and good scenes

I'm still trying to understand exactly which aspects of the books were "shattered" or "completely destroyed". I understand that some of the changes to particular backstories change characters in ways people could find unlikable. But I see no changes that "break" or "shatter" or "obliterate" the books. 

1 hour ago, Kaleb said:

I'm glad this forum and others allow people to not only have critical discussions and theorizing about the show, but collect the bile and spleen of those who need a place to vent about their shattered expectations. That said, even recognizing that every new book purist is going to go through this phase and it's certainly valid for them to post it, the "they shouldn't even call it Wheel Of Time" gatekeeping take is just so boring at this point.

Well said!

8 minutes ago, henrywho said:

TV Perrin is unlikable and hardly worth knowing.

Hard disagree. 

13 minutes ago, henrywho said:

he would not be a useless mopy sad sack.

Okay. I get that’s your opinion. I don’t share the opinion that Perrin is a ‘useless mopy sad sack’ in the show. So there’s nothing else to talk about, I guess. 
 

12 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Book Perrin also has no feelings for Egwene except friendship. The TV series wants you to believe he's been in love with her since birth.

He has loved Egwene since birth. Like a sister. He has never been in love with her. 

Just now, henrywho said:

He is not. He suggests that he and Egwene keep heading on because that's where Rand will go because Perrin believes Rand will go where Egwene will be. No determination, just a suggestion. He is afraid and wants to be around people he knows and can help keep Egwene safe.

Your point is what? He keeps them moving. He keeps Egwene safe. He knows how his friend thinks and makes sure Egwene goes to the Tower to find Rand. I can’t understand how this is so bothersome. 

Just now, henrywho said:

Perrin E2. Little dialogue. Mopy sad sack.

Perrin E3. Overought and so scared he can't start a fire. Comforts Egwene, hardy surprising. So far no determination to find anyone. Just heading in the direction he thinks Rand and Mat will be.

Perrin E4. Suspicious of the Tinkers. Jealous of the Tinker boy.  Smiles for the first time.

1st 4 episodes no determination of any kind except to be miserable and no doggedness.

 

Nothing like Perrin in the Books.

Just gonna have to disagree. He’s not exactly like book Perrin, but he has the same core qualities. He acts the way book Perrin would if book Perrin had killed his wife on winter night. 

15 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Dogged..Egwene. Protective..Egwene I've explained.

Deteremind to find Rand.... Hmmm Why is he? Is the answer to that a good or a bad one?, does it have anything to do with Egwene??? Think on it.

I may just re-watch that episode so I can better answer if you have more questions.

He was doggedly protective of Egwene in the books as well. He is determined to find Rand because Rand is his friend. It had nothing to do with Egwene. What Perrin saw within Machin Shin was not real, but a manifestation of his inner insecurities. The “love triangle” was not actually a thing, but Nynaeve misreading the entire situation. 
 

I agree that it didn’t land quite right. But once again, you’re not making the case for Perrin being somehow “destroyed” by the show. 

16 minutes ago, henrywho said:

This only makes Perrin more unlikable and smudges his limp character even more. I'm sorry. There is no similarity between Perrin of the book and the series except superficially. Perrin of the series is a deeply flawed individual, I don't see that in the Perrin of the books.

But you told me the important characteristics Perrin has in the books are that he is staunch, forthright and determined. I gave you examples of him being exactly that in the show. 
 

So there is similarity between Perrin in the show and Perrin in the books. You find him unlikeable, that’s fine. But you haven’t really made the case that he’s different from the books (other than the obvious change to his origin story.)

25 minutes ago, henrywho said:

 

Ah it's all perfectly clear to me now!

In your dictionary "adapted" and "obliterated" have a similar meaning. Of course, now you're making sense.

 

You do realise that with every episode still to come as with every episode already shown that the series will get further and further away from the books. Rosamund Pike not only plays Moiraine Damodred she is one of the producers. In the books Moiraine disappears for a long time. Possibly for most of a book. I can't remember exactly but it's a very long time. This will not happen in the series. Rosamund Pike is a fine actress but she is not going the let herself be written out for that amount of time.

Perrin was not married in the books until much later, after book 4 at least. In his current condition the writers are going to have to perform some logic defying plot gymnastics to get him in any condition close enough to feel enough positive emotions to ever marry! That being said these writers are not particularly good or consistent so I should not be surprised by anything that the show does. 

Every change they make now ripples forward

 

I’m sorry it hasn’t worked for you so far. Maybe the challenges of writing season 3 and beyond will be too much, but so far I’m quite enjoying it. I’m excited to see what happens.