In EotW and tGH we learn that the Ways were set up by the few male Aes Sedai who reached the refuge of the steddings before they went mad, and so were able to survive while the rest of the male Aes Sedai went mad and Broke the World. They made the Ways from their understanding of the Many Worlds Theory, which in this case was already proven.

In the EotW and tGH, we also learn that the Ogier were exiled from the steddings and had to wander until they found them again. This set the Longing in their souls, and in WoT, they can no longer spend time freely whenever whereever; they are tied to the steddings. In tDR, we see through Rand's Da'shain ancestors the pitiful plight on one such band of Ogier, looking for the steddings and not finding them.

Which of those stories is true? Or is it a case of some Ogier having the luck to find steddings and offering them to the male Aes Sedai they knew, while other Ogier, working Outside when the Breaking of the World happened, finding themselves refugees like everybody else, and finding the old paths no longer there? (It's Either/Or from one perspective, or Both/And from the other one.)

I'm pretty sure that Matrim Cauthon is a rebirth of one of the Kings of ancient Manetheren. Quite besides the memories he got from his second visit to the Aelfin and Eelfin, he quotes the Old Tongue quite at random under pressure, when under attack from Trollocs and Fades before they reach Shadar Logoth, and in the Blight, while being healed and disconnected  from the Shadar Logoth dagger, and in Tear while gambling with those Disreputables, the young Lords.

FWIW, W. Somerset Maugham in the introduction to the Pocket Books abridgement of his novel "Of Human Bondage" goes into a discussion of novelists "padding" their novels in depth. It's well worth a read. He takes on Dickens among others ...

As a long-time fan of JRR Tolkien and Frank Herbert, it's obvious to me that those are the two major influences on The Eye of the World. And as in The Sword of Shannara, it's pretty obvious that RJ is pretty pedantic about following a similar arc for the beginning of his series.

That said, he manages to break out of it fairly early on, imho. There isn't any analogy to Bayle Domon in TLotR; the nearest to that in Dune is the smugglers such as Esmar Tuek. And likewise, the Hunt for the Horn of Valery.

He does take his time to find his own voice.

On 11/2/2022 at 10:50 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean the powers of CGI now days they could take someone and then change the body, alot of your MCU superheroes do not have the bodies that appear on screen, I can't remember who it was but I remember an actor telling a story once about how he spent months getting in shape for an MCU role, turned up on set and realised the other actors where relying on either the outfit they where given to make them look like they had a 6 pack, or, had been told that the body would be tweaked by CGI later. 

The same could be done for Lanfer, there is enough filters and trickery used in normal print media and on instagram etc that almost any actress could be taken and then made something more. 

Ah, so we don't have to look for a woman with big-enough ears, after all! And we don't need to approach Big Ears to see if he's willing to shave off his beard and wear a dress, either!

You have saved our lives! I had no idea how Noddy would've reacted to Big Ears being offered the role of a lifetime, if he only underwent some minor costume changes ....

Through the magic of CGI we can get an actress who appeals to everyone, from Ogier, all the way to mere humans!

On 1/4/2023 at 7:14 AM, DojoToad said:

I did read the first trilogy years ago and only remember the one scene myself describing sexual violence.  IIRC it was brought up many times so that we could all remember what he did - as if forgetting a scene like that would be possible - especially back in the day...

On 1/4/2023 at 8:00 AM, Elder_Haman said:

It's more that the guilt, shame and unforeseen consequences of that act continue to haunt the character throughout the series.

Everybody in the series does something which they regret intensely. Sometimes it's just a minor detail; other times it comes back to haunt them. For example, Foamfollower, the Giant-friend of Thomas Covenant, uses some of the hurtloam to ease the death of a cavewight in the first book, with the consequence there isn't enough to heal the little boy who is one of the two survivors of an attack on a Tree-village. The boy has an ardent wish to see the Ranyhyn, the Horse-Lords who are themselves Horses and imbued with EarthPower, so they take him there. Since the boy was never healed, Lord Foul uses him to betray the Ranyhyn later.

In the second book, The Illearth War, Thomas Covenant's accidental daughter High Lord Elena seeks to attack Lord Foul by calling High Lord Kevin back from the dead and sending his to attack Lord Foul. This breaks the law sealing the dead off from the living, and consequently Lord Foul uses that in the third book, The Power That Preserves, to call back into a ghastly sort of life all the dead of the ages before, and also High Lord Elena to undo one of the spells holding his most vicious servants the Ravers from the Land.

It's a constant theme - fuguing off Tolkien's "Oft evil will shall evil mar", and transforming it into a major theme of fate.

Well, there is the fact that Nynaeve sends her to sleep with forkroot in Tel'aranrhiod, and the effects of that extend to the waking world. So "Marigan" will not be easily wakeable until the effects wear off and also she will not be able to channel. Apart from that, there's Min's "seeing" that the three of them are dangerous, and since "Marigan" can't channel, to the best of their knowledge, the fact that she is probably unwakeable for a good long time after Nynaeve doses her, probably points to her being Moghedien.

There's that poem Lan recites in The Eye Of The World, at Fal Dara:

The rose petal floats on water

The kingfisher flashes above the pond

Life and beauty swirl in the midst of death.

Then there's Moiraine's (belated) eulogy of Aemon and Eldrene:

"Their King was Aemon al Caar al Thorin, Aemon son of Caar son of Thorin, and Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan was his Queen. Aemon, a man so fearless that the greatest compliment for courage any could give, even among his enemies, was to say a man had Aemon's heart. Eldrene, so beautiful that it was said the flowers bloomed to make her smile. Bravery and beauty and wisdom and a love that death couId not sunder. Weep, if you have a heart, for the loss of them, for the loss of even their memory. Weep, for the loss of their blood."

Those jumped out at me at first thought, but I'm sure there are others you might think more suitable.

And if you want something completely different, I suggest the Lankhmar stories by Fritz Leiber and the Viriconium stories by M John Harrison.

https://www.librarything.com/work/49464

https://sciencefictionruminations.com/2016/11/21/book-review-the-pastel-city-m-john-harrison-1971/

Not quite as long as the others, but considerably more involved. And then there are the Adventures of Alyx

https://www.tor.com/2011/06/28/reading-joanna-russ-the-adventures-of-alyx-1967-1970/

Again, not nearly so long as the others, but considerably more involved - Joanna Russ parodies Fritz Leiber at one point. She can be quite funny.

The first time I've ever come across this idea was in Fritz Leiber's Swords in Lankhmar stories. So it's not new, as such.

IIRC, Perrin mentioned that Rahvin had been disguising himself as Lord Gaebril while she was carrying out her duties as a maid, and she was so shocked she dropped the tray. Perrin excused that on the grounds seh was from Caemlyn and was horrified to discover she had been living in close proximity to someone of very toxic behavior and the power to comprehensively abuse people.

Rhuidean is most probably based on Jordan's Petra, a city in what is now desert, carved out of the rocks of the mountains.

I always thought Illian was based on Bangkok - as a serviceman during the war in Vietnam, RJ would've visited it on occasion.

41 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Another series I haven't seen listed here the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the first 6 books are brilliantly written and have some really great moments in them. I have not read the last 4 books yet, partially out of a fear they would disappoint given how well the 2 original trilogies wrap everything up. There are also some very similar themes to WOT within them so if you like WOT you will probably enjoy these (although they are darker in tone). 

 

I love the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, though I find I am less than enthusiastic about some of the language - but then, Stephen Donaldson, like Mervyn Peake and Pearl Buck, is a missionary's child, and a lot of his language reflects his experiences growing up in a completely non-English language environment.

Apart from that, I recommend the final trilogy. I read it via the local library, and enjoyed it even more than the first two trilogies. In it, for example, we see the Waynhim and the Ur-Viles finally reconciled, we meet Berek Half-Hand beofre he loses half his hand, we also encountered the Viles when they encountered the Despiser's servants who corrupt them with the sense that they are worth only to be  despised, before they became incarnated as the Demonidim, and later, as the Ur-Viles and Waynhim. We see the Despiser in his last toss of the dice, almost shut down the world, only to realize that as he's been fooling around with incarnating himself for so long, he's not going to be released and face the Creator for the final showdown; he is going to destroy himself totally and utterly, and so begs Thomas Covenant for aid. I think you'll enjoy it.

On 11/13/2022 at 5:18 AM, chongjasmine said:

I really enjoy wot so much that I reread it often.

That's my experience as well. Though I do read other books and series as well. I mean, it's been a while since I last read the Earthsea series.

There's some children's games, more specifically boys' games, mentioned. One that springs to mind in Lord of Chaos, in Salidar, is when the boys in a rough circle take turns throwing a ball at each other, and trying to dodge it. Birgitte is sort of supervising that game. IIRC, there's a group of boys playing a street game in one of the later books, in Tear.

On 11/22/2022 at 7:43 PM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I do not recall seeing that - Anoura and Setel Annan were the principal burned out characters and I do not recall N attempting to heal either (I think Mistress Annan lost the ability due to an interaction with a ter'angreal so might be severed rather than burned out, I do not think it was defined).  

It happens after they flee Ebou Dar and arrive in Andor, iirc.

And yes, it happened in relation to a Ter'angreal of unknown quality, so as far as I can recall, it was burning out. It must've taken her beyond her limits - no buffer, so she burned herself out attempting to use it.

It's in one of the very last books, after she is discovered to be Morgase, former Queen of Andor, and before they arrive at Caemlyn. She is torn between wanting Tallanvor and needing to be needed in some political manner, and she overhears someone discussing that Lord Gaebril was actually the Forsaken Rahvin, and she decides to marry Tallanvor shortly after.

I'll forgo the Spoiler and therefore the Spoiler Alert, but there is an incident in one of the later books where a former Aes Sedai who was burnt out, asked Nynaeve to Heal her, but it didn't work. She'd been burnt out, so burning out must've cauterized the base where Nynaeve found the hole.

I've just finished Greg Bear's novel Songs of Earth and Power, comprising The Infinity Concerto and The Serpent Mage. In it we have a young chap by name Michael Perrin, and he becomes a mage, a master of magic. In the process he crosses between world to world, initially from Earth to Sidhedark (the realm) where the Sidhe live. On the way beack, he finds that there are a wide variety of variations on the Earth (though he doesn't stop and chat) and also finds himself and his ladylove trapped in the bad guy the Isomage's failed world-building attempts.

I re-read it and thought, Sidhedark's got some similarities to Tel'aranrhiod; we've got the multiverse happening; and we've also got mage-made vacuoles. Along with a bad guy, the Isomage, who's been corrupting various individuals and stealing their self, throughout the prehistory of the novel's events.

I'm wondering if Robert Jordan ever read Greg Bear's Songs of Earth and Power, because if he did, he appears to have tipped the hat in acknowledgement to Greg Bear through borrowing certain formulations (if that's the right formulation) of fantasy, though in quite different form. (I mean, there's no way anybody could mistake Sidhedark for Tel'aranrhiod. both stand off from the common Earth; but you enter Sidhedark with difficulty, and exit it with even more difficulty, unlike Tel'aranrhiod with even casual dreamers enter - at their peril. And nobody could ever mistake the Isomage Clarkham for Baalzamon. Clarkham reeks of self-pity; Baalzamon doesn't.)

Any thoughts?

I think I'd have to say

1: Rand. He has the heaviest burden, and comes through, eventually.

2: Loial. Who could resist someone who dices so badly? And sings to trees?

3: Mat. He only seems to be at a loss in every situation. But just roll the dice and run for cover ...

4: Min. She's got a ghastly "gift", but instead of abusing it, she finds a way to live with it for others' benefit.

5: Siuan. She bounces back after being "thrown so hard she bounces". Even worse, she finally commits to "the love of her life".

6: Rhuarc and Tam. I've known people like them, unflappable, dependable, unexpectedly lethal.

7: Nynaeve and Lan in the end, though their "love" did worry me; I cried when she sent him to Saldaea then went around getting him an army.

8: Aviendha. Her place as the person who "breaks the ice" for Rand in facing his Aiel heritage, gives her a place in my heart.

Can't think of any more at the moment ...

Well, I've watched a pretty faithful TV series (BBC) adaption of the Narnia Chronicles, and I've watched the (interrupted) series which isn't quite as word-for-word faithful, and the not-so-faithful adaption wins hands down.

On quite the other hand (or paw), I've endured (with rage) the TV miniseries adaption of Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea trilogy, and it was painful in the extreme. I fully endorse her outrage at the liberties that were taken with its central characters and actions.

And I've seen both the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy TV series (BBC) and the film of the same, and for once, they have managed to get both right. But then, the TV series wasn't a faithful adaption of either the books or the radio series. And the books weren't a faithful adaption of the radio series either.

As long as neither the WOT or the ROP violate character development or history as badly as the Earthsea miniseries, I'm fine.

That makes sense. She's not like the Spider, who's an out-and-out coward, but she doesn't take unnecessary risks. That is evident in the way she treats Rand; tying off Asmodean's shield so that he can't take revenge on her, and at the same time, not letting him teach Rand any faster than she can handle his increasing control over his strength.

On 10/31/2022 at 9:36 PM, Sir_Charrid said:

That would indicate that similar link I was looking for, but more indirectly. If the Seanchan continent had the largest influence from the Forsaken, with less cultural political upheaval, then it would make sense they would hold on to some form of the traditions of the age of legends, all be it in a twisted corrupted form. I can see the Forsaken enjoying corrupting the Da'shain ideals into their own form of Slavery. In my own head I always assumed the armies of Artur Hawkwing took all those traditions to the Seanchan lands, but actually it makes more sense that over time they would become more and more native and that those traditions where taken from the lands they conquered. 

I have then always seen Gai'shain as an Aiel hold on to a life long forgotten, a tradition that they don't truly understand comes in some form from their original purpose. Servants never allowed to hold a weapon. I imagine the tradition started before the tribes where called to Rhuidean and understood the truth of their past. 

It may be that the Aiel and Seanchan in their own way hold onto the oldest of the traditions of the age of legends, just in a very twisted misunderstood way. 

Gai'shain is a form of Da'shain's purpose, adapted from the Da'shian Aiel's vow to do no harm to anyone. If at any stage the Forsaken twisted Da'shain into Da'covale, that happened well before the Breaking. One gets the feeling that Da'shain Aiel were at the most, objects of contempt and mockery for the Forsaken - you remember Lanfear exclaiming at the way the Aiel have changed, from the Age of Legends, where you could beat one up and all he (or she) would do is ask, if he had offended you?

I imagine it would've delighted some of the more disgruntled of the Forsaken to thus pick on the least harmful of their opponents in that way. But there is nothing about it in any of the stories we have, so I think I'll stop right there.

Well, we do know of one life when Birgitte Silverbow died young - when she went into the Tower of Genji to find a cure for Gaidal Cain's then-current incarnation. Reading that incident, which she tells Mat in Caemlyn, I get the feeling that she then was not much older than Mat was, when she died in that story.

As far as being incarnated at conception or at birth, a fetus at conception is not much more than an outline, and simply doesn't have the equipment to "possess" a soul, however you imagine it. Doris Lessing uses an image in one of her books, Briefing for a Descent into Hell, iirc, (and probably in Shikasta too, iirc) of sinking into the fetus, getting in time with the heartbeat ... FWLIW 🙂

Well, at the end of the series, we are left with Tinkers settling down in Altara, and joining in the first aid around the battles. So far no one in WOT has yet mentioned the decision their ancestors took, that made them Tuatha'an instead of Aiel. And Rand in his visit to Ebou Dar has made trees bloom. Meanwhile, in his disguise as Nobody_in_Particular, Rand is off to wander the lands.

I think he'll meet up with the Tuatha'an and (probably) the Aiel, and in one of those (formerly) ta'veren moments, they'd find the song. Just an "intuition", if you like ... 🙂