There's also Moiraine's comment very early on in TEotW about how the One Power gives those who touch it, a heightened awareness of creatures of the Dark One such as Trollocs and Myrddraal, and also that Rand has been attacked consistently in both his dreams and in the body by Baalzamon's agents, so he probably knew there was a gray man somewhere, though in his stage of understanding, he probably wasn't aware of anything other than a vague feeling of, "There's something not quite right about these people." Similar to Perrin smelling the gray men about to attack him and their party in that inn where the disgracefully underdressed singer is singing on a table ... ?

I've always taken "and live once more a part of what was!" to refer to his setting up (purely accidentally of course: we know Mat) the Band of the Red Hand, as an elite military formation. After all, it was Manetheren's elite military formation at the time of the Trolloc Wars, and he's replicated it near enough perfectly.

On 12/3/2021 at 8:28 AM, WheelofJuke said:

As far as the armor conversation: I typically wear only a cod piece when going into battle, so I can't really comment on how armor may or may not attach to cloth. ?

Like Lord Blackadder's codpiece, made of metal?

Us baresarks foresake even those! (Unless you're a female baresark like Lady Farstrada, in which case you don't get quite so bare ... ? ? )

For what it's worth, it would be an interesting task to compare and contrast various other many and varied interpretations of other novels, such as the various interpretations of Fenimore Cooper's  The Last of the Mohicans, which when I last looked, had at least one during the 1920s-1940s period, a silent film made in 1932, then a BBC TV series made in 1971 (quite a nice one), then a film made in 1977, then the one featuring C Day Lewis in 1992, which I've seen and quite enjoyed - though I don't recall much of it at this late stage; I'll have to see it again.

That should answer a good many of the questions, doubts, reservations, etc, made about film and TV series adaptions of novels.

That would be nice. Assuming they were released before I shuffle off this mortal coil, I would make every effort to purchase them.

I've been wondering why nobody's mentioned M John Harrison's Viriconium stories yet? I would love to see The Pastel City and A Storm of Wings - I haven't read In Viriconium yet.

Just imagine, a "better poet than a swordsman" named tegeus-Cromis, a dwarf techie called Tomb, an airboatman named Benedict Paucemanly who's stuck on the Moon until he isn't, and at first, a very physical threat, then later an eerie, non-physical threat ... and a beautiful Queen named Methvet Nian, opposed by her cousin Canna Moidart. Stuff of legends - so why hasn't it been made yet?

Actually, Gaul in The Shadow Rising, Chapter 42, A Missing Leaf, makes the comment about Chiad and Bain after Perrin asks if he's had an enjoyable night playing Maiden's Kiss with them: "A Myrddraal has less cunning than a woman, and a Trolloc fights with more honor." Before adding, "And a goat has more sense."

But then, that comes as a culmination of a series of taunts they have thrown his way, and Chiad and Bain's support of Faile's behaviour towards Perrin, which they seem to regard in the same light, as a series of taunts intended to force him to take notice of her.

I've always been content with Drongo as the original name for Lews Therin Telamon aka Rand al'Thor, if only because he does act like one at least half the time.

Well, both the Dune Fremen and the Randland Aiel are survivors of a long period of exile from previous societies, both have religious backgrounds that involve non-violence (Fremen being Zensunni - related no doubt to Buddhislamic faiths mentioned elsewhere.) and yet are now capable of extreme violence wherever considered necessary, and both hold their current straightened circumstances are justifiable because of both previous circumstances and future outcomes.

Crown of Swords, Chapter 21, Swovan Night

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"Don't look at me that way," Birgitte said. "You know more than I do. Aes Sedai and Warders have always been men and women before. Maybe that's the difference. Maybe we are too alike." Her grin was skewed slightly. There had not been near enough water in that pitcher. "That might be embarrassing, I suppose."

That's the first quote that comes to mind. There may be others.

18 hours ago, Tim said:

One series I would compare aspects of WOT to, and which I could imagine being a successful TV adaptation, is the Empire series by Janny Wurts and Raymond Feist - kind of an offshoot of his Riftwar novels but (I think) better written and more appropriate for adaptation. Basically if WOT was only the game of houses and with magic playing a much lesser role.

The Empire trilogy - Daughter of the Empire, Servant of the Empire, Mistress of the Empire - would be much, much better than that cringeworthy book "The King's Buccaneers". I don't know how it got past the editor/s. Though Pug in the first trilogy was definitely a worthwhile character. I have conflicting views about his friend who wound up an elemental-in-"Elvish"-form.

13 hours ago, Morani said:

 

Omg I am not alone! 

I would have to say I regard The Horse and His Boy as the best of the Chronicles of Narnia. I'm disappointed that it's never been made into a movie.

Well, I haven't seen the WoT series - yet; I likewise haven't seen the GoT series either, except for trailers here and there. I have seen the original BBC Narnia Chronicles miniseries, and it's nothing to write home about, unless you've chewed off your leg to survive it and are writing to request a new leg. I've also seen the three films of the later series, and it's better as an adaption - less faithful to the text, but actually better watching. I think the original BBC miniseries showed up the flaws in the Narnia Chronicles. I've seen the BBC Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series - low-budget, but enough funny points that parts of it were retained for the later film. (The Love Song of the Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz should be required reading for all aspiring politicians and civil/public servants.) I've seen the truly execrable Earthsea miniseries, and the less said about that the better.

I've seen both the theatre Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit - I've also seen the extended Lord of the Rings. Apart from a few misses here and there, it is generally good. I just wish they'd cut The Hobbit down in size. The book wasn't a trilogy, the films needn't have been either.

I've also seen the original Science Fantasy film Dune (Lynch adaption) which was irritating, and had a few very good moments, but not nearly enough of them; I've also seen the later SyFy miniseries, which likewise had some very good moments, just not enough of them.

I would love to see an adaption of David Lindsay's Voyage to Arcturus, and ER Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros and the other Zimiamvia novels Mistress of Mistresses, A Fish Dinner in Memison, and The Mezentian Gate.

I have escaped seeing the Shannara series, and retain both my legs - Ditto the Witcher series and books - the Shannara novels were predictable thus boring. I tried re-reading them a few years ago after ignoring them for over twenty years, but they were still predictable and thus boring.

I would love to see some of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion books made into films and/or series. My favourites include Prince Corum of the Silver Hand and Elric of Melnibone.

On 11/19/2021 at 3:37 PM, Pembie said:

Hmm I didn’t think that bit was written very well at all Nyaeve and Elayane just laughed at Mat when I told them and then he even kind of brushed it off so I was left thinking that is a very odd reaction to rape or was it even rape 

 

 

I think we're deep enough into the discussion to not need Spoiler Alerts - so here's his explanation to Elayne:

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"You listen to me! That woman won't take no for an answer; I say no, and she laughs at me. She's starved me, bullied me, chased me down like a stag! She has more hands than any six women I ever met. She threatened to have the serving women undress me if I didn't let her—" Abruptly, what he was saying hit him. And who he was saying it to. He managed to close his mouth before he swallowed a fly. He became very interested in one of the dark metal ravens inlaid in the haft of the ashandarei, so he would not have to meet her eyes. "What I mean to say is, you don't understand," he muttered. "You have it all backwards." He risked a glance at her under the edge of his hatbrim.

So we see that Queen Tylin is not a woman who takes no for an answer, and she's got the resources to enforce that.

So far the only response I've seen to the presentation of the evidence has been a routine declaration that coercion coming from a woman is not coercion, and that therefore Mat could not have been coerced into sex. Plus of course the equally routine insistence that previous sexual history justifies the coercion suffered - it's basically what Elayne says.

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Before she darted beyond hearing, he heard her chortle something about "a taste of his own medicine."

Which however, does not include not taking no for an answer.

On 10/30/2021 at 11:48 PM, Elendir said:

 

You chose only those scenes that fit your interpretation. This pattern of behavior is actually at the origin of this thread.

The Knife incident is interpreted as the only important aspect of the relationship between Mat and Tylin.
The result of such an approach is then equating it with the Morgase incident.
Some people here have tried to point out that the relationship between Mat and Tylin was much more complicated than such simplistic conclusions. However, their arguments fell on barren ground. Therefore, I decided to implement a similar approach of your interpretation only in the opposite view, demonizing of Mat.

It's funny that I got reactions according to which Mat is actually the biggest gentelman in the world. So where did the negative opinions of women that Mat is rascal came from?

Your posts are the perfect opposite to mine. Only I am aware of my extreme position. After all, I have only hold the mirror all that time.

Well, let's look at Mat from the point of view of someone who knows him very, very well, that of the newly appointed Amyrlin, Egwene - and remember, she's been around to observe him since before the start of the series:

Lord of Chaos, chapter 39

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Nynaeve gave ground stubbornly. Mat was wrongheaded; he would say "down" if they said "up" just to spite them. He could make trouble nailed up inside a barrel. They constantly would have to be dragging him out of taverns and gambling dens. Toward the end she was reduced to claiming that Mat would probably pinch Elayne the first time her back was turned, and Egwene knew they were overcoming her objections. Mat certainly gave a lot of time to chasing after women, which Egwene could hardly approve, but Nynaeve surely knew as well as she that for all of looking when and how he should not, he seemed to have an uncanny knack for' picking women who wanted to be chased, even the most unlikely.

So that's supposed to make him a sexual predator? Doing what a woman wants is supposed to make the man a sexual predator? From my experience, not doing what a woman wants is likely to get your manhood called into question - and that is emotional blackmail, I'm afraid. (I'm surprised more men don't become monks.)

As far as rape goes, John Howard Griffin in Black Like Me made an interesting point in one of his later chapters, recounting the trip hitching in the car of an aggressively "white" individual, who boasted of his sexual conquests of African American women who could not say no and keep their jobs. November 24:

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I wondered what moral and ethical difference there was between this sort of rape by coercion that threatened to starve a person, and rape by coercion that threatened to knife or shoot a person. Newspapers play up as sensational every attempt by a Negro to rape a white woman. Yet this white rape of Negro women is apparently a different matter. But it is rape nonetheless, and practiced on a scale that dwarfs the Negro’s defaults.

It's the principle I apply to the Question of Mat and Tylin ... coercion is coercion ...

I'm hanging out for the Two Rivers to sound Jamaican, the Aiel to sound Cockney, the Andorans to sound BBC Comedic French a la Monty Python's Holy Grail, the Saldaeans to sound Irish, the Murandians to sound Comedic TexMex, the Taireans to sound South Indian, the Cairhienin to sound Bavarian or Austrian, the Shienarans to sound Nigerian, the Illianers to sound Italian, the Taraboners to sound Comedic New Yorker ... and of course the Atha'an Miere to sound Polynesian/Melanesian/Micronesian. Seanchans must of course sound like BBC Received Pronunciation of (other than) blessed memory.

14 hours ago, Elendir said:

 

Do you understand, that quoting selected passages from book, where scenes are spread through several chapter say nothing about whole picture?

I understand perfectly well how not to twist an argument. In this case I quoted all the passages that referred to both Mat and Isendre. I also quoted the first passage that deals with Mat and Betse, as I did not feel any need to quote the second passage in the same chapter, where Mistress Daelvin permits all her staff to dance with the officers of the Band of the Red Hand who are in her inn. And I've learnt over the years, to let the evidence speak for itself.

Isendre was not encouraging enough for Mat to maintain his initial interest. So he took it as "No", not a firm "No", but a "No" all the same. And as for

Quote

but it was clear in the book through Rand's eyes that she was running from Mat.

we actually see her through Egwene's eyes, running in her dreams from something terrifying, but that's after she's both stuffed up through her greed and been betrayed by Lanfear, and Darkfriends' bosses are notoriously unsympathetic about failure. I doubt that Mat would count as something that terrifying, since he backed off once he understood she wasn't interested.

If you like, I can quote from the entire series, in exhaustive detail. I have read it.

Cairhien Courier, 12th Day, !st Month, First Year of Fourth Age

In breaking news, Nynaeve Al'Meara, Queen of Malkier, has been observed knuckling her moustache in puzzlement at reports that the sealing of the Bore, otherwise known as the Dark One, was not as successful as previously hoped. Meanwhile, Thom Merrilin, gleeman extraordinaire and Court Bard of Andor has been observed tugging his braid in confusion at similar reports. We will keep you updated on the case. ?

Let's see, The Shadow Rising, Chapter 37:

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Mat shivered. He could not imagine sharing living quarters with that woman. It would be like sharing with a bear with a sore tooth. Isendre, now. . . . That face, those lips, that swaying walk. If he could get her away from Kadere, maybe she would find a young hero-the dust creatures could be ten feet tall, for her; he would give her every detail he could remember or invent-a handsome young hero more to her liking than a stuffy old peddler. It was worth thinking about.

First time we see Mat thinking about Isendre. Then we get this:

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That was where Mat spent most of his time, dicing with the drivers-until they realized he won a very great deal more often than he lost, no matter whose dice he used-engaging Kadere or Natael in long talks at every opportunity, pursuing Isendre. It was clear what was on his mind from the first time he grinned at her and straightened his hat, the morning after the Trolloc attack. He spoke to her nearly every evening for as long as he could, and pricked himself so badly plucking white blossoms from a spiky-thorned bush that he could barely handle his reins for two days, though he refused to allow Moiraine to Heal him. Isendre did not precisely encourage him, but her slow, sultry smile was hardly calculated to drive him away, either. Kadere saw--and said not a word, though sometimes his eyes followed Mat like a vulture's. Others did comment.

And that's when Keille Shoagi, Lanfear's disguise, offers to sell her to him for a Tar Valon mark. Predictably Isendre is outraged, and we don't see her for a while until Mat speaks to her in chapter 50, after the Trolloc/Draghkar attack at Cold Rocks:
 

Quote

 

Isendre stood at the top of the steps to Kadere's wagon, frowning at nothing. Even with her brows furrowed she was beautiful behind that misty scarf. He was glad that at least his memories of women were his own.
"The Trollocs are done," he told her, leaning on his spear so she would be sure to notice it. No point risking having my skull split without getting a little good out of it. No effort at all was needed to sound tired. "A hard fight, but you're safe, now."
She stared down at him, face expressionless, eyes glittering in the moonlight like dark, polished stone.
Without a word she turned and went inside, slamming the door. Hard.

Mat expelled a long, disgusted breath and stalked away from the wagons. What did it take to impress the woman?

 

And that's the last we see of Mat trying to impress Isendre. The next we see Isendre in Chapter 57, she's just picked up a gold coin Mat has tried to flip, just before the Taardad enter Alcair Dal and Lanfear takes a cruel and brutal revenge on Isendre for making eyes at Rand.

We see Mat at times through Rand's eyes, but mostly we see Mat through Mat's eyes. And so we see that Isendre's mastered the art of the come-here-go-away.

As far as Mistress Daelvin and keeping order in her inn, The Golden Stag, goes, we might like to consider why Nalesean is wary of her ...

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Mistress Daelvin would have been all over any man she thought was behaving improperly—despite her placid appearance, she kept a short cudgel in her skirts and sometimes used it; Nalesean still eyed her carefully when she came close—but if a free-spending man wanted a dance, what was the harm in that?

Not to forget, it's Betse who first gets her hands on him:

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Leaning forward, she pushed his scarf down with a finger. He had not been paying attention, and had let it slip, a little. "What is this?" She ran her finger along the pale thickened ridge that circled his neck. "Did someone try to hang you? Why? You are too young to be a hardened scofflaw." He pulled his head back and hastily retied the black silk to hide his scar, but Betse was not put off. Her hand dipped into the unlaced front of his shirt to pull up the silver foxhead medallion he wore on a leather thong. "Was it for stealing this? It looks valuable; is it valuable?"

Now if it had been Mat sticking his hand down her dress, you might have a point, but ...

On 10/15/2021 at 1:29 PM, JaimAybara said:

This was bloody spectacular! Here are some stills.  Sorry, I did my best.

 

 

 

When I first saw the Fade I had a moment of recognition - it's straight out of Clive Barker's Hellraiser. The Engineer turned downside up.

On 10/12/2021 at 8:16 AM, DojoToad said:

I don't remember clearly Mat's interactions with the Darkfriend Isendre.  I remember she used her body to get what she wanted, but doesn't mean she can't say 'no'.  I really don't recall Mat forcing himself on her, but it was a long series - I may have forgotten.

 

Would need a reference on the tavern girl south of Cairhien...

 

But Aludra, I thought was okay.  She enjoyed the kissing but kept a very tight leash on Mat.  There was a line she wouldn't cross and he respected that - to my recollection.  She never said I don't want you around me, just that's enough for tonight.

I've just finished reading The Shadow Rising, and while Mat makes his intentions obvious to Isendre, she has no interest in him - she's after Rand, and she basically doesn't respond to Mat as he would like. So he doesn't get anywhere, and by the end of the book he's lost interest in her.

The tavern girl south of Cairhien? Betse Silvin, in Maerone? I've just checked, in Lord of Chaos, Ch 5, A Different Dance. She initiates the conversation with Mat - admittedly after he invites her to share a drink of wine with him - and asks him all sorts of embarrassing and difficult questions which show she has been watching him just as avidly as he alleges he has been watching her. The inn owner, Mistress Daelvin, is keeping an eye on all this, and she does not throw him out, so he does not overstep any boundary she has in place to protect her serving girls. And to top it all off, Mat asks her to dance, to music he has shared with the musicians and she accepts - and enjoys it.

So we've seen Mat in action, with a woman who is fascinated by him, and he keeps a very tight rein on his behaviour with her.

While we are on the Great Confessions part - just before they disappear over Falme, Rand is approached by Rogosh and taken to a little pub for a man-to-man discussion, during which Rogosh confesses that Eagle-Eye was a fabrication, and that he is actually Elephant-Nose, but preferred not to be known by that nickname. After this baring of the soul, he sticks his nose into Rand's beer mug, which Rand has not touched, sucks it all up and then blows it into his open mouth. Rand is duly impressed ... and Artur also appears, to drag a somewhat tipsy Rogosh away, and likewise confesses - he is not Hawkwing either, but Dingopaw, on account of having grown up with a dingo puppy - which his first girlfriend stole from him and sauteed as an act of revenge for him not paying her sufficient attention ... which tale became widely known the tale of The Baby That Stole My Dingo ...

Meanwhile, after the Last Ballet, Narg escapes into Caemlyn and sets up as a Trolloc Beautician, aiming to share all the greatest Trolloc beauty secrets with an appreciative human audience ...

I think people watching the show would think the two are the same - Mazrim Taim and Demandred are always described as having an identical physical appearance. Mazrim Taim's identity as Demandred could be explained by retconning Mazrim Taim's murder by Demandred, who then takes his place - Mazrim Taim was going insane by that time, so he never really understands what is happening to him until Demandred's final attack, and Demandred takes over his appearance with the Saldaean officers and their wives, eaving them effectively cored/pithed and useless for anything other than serving.

I thought it might be worth pointing out that what Berelain does in chasing Perrin is sexual harassment - unwanted sexual attention.

And also pointing out that RJ is simultaneously taking aim at the attitude amongst women that men have no feelings besides their glans penis, and the only permissible emotions for a male are lust and rage. Also the perception that a man enjoys any sexual attention he gets - I got a knife pulled on me once by one older woman for pointing out to her that we were still in the negotiation stage, instead of the getting down and dirty stage. Eventually she cooled down, but every time I hear about "don't be that guy!", I wonder, do women ever hear "Don't be that girl!"

We should compare and contrast the various sexual relations and attractions in WOT, from the ones where one person abuses and manipulates the other, to the ones of mutual attraction and respect.