On 6/27/2023 at 2:02 AM, nsmallw said:

- Why is Rand able to split and redirect Baalzamon's balefire in the Heart of the Stone, but Be'lal isn't able to react in time to Moiraine's similar blast of balefire?

 

A thought.

Perhaps because Rand was holding Callandor at the time, whereas Be'lal only had his innate power to utilize which proved insufficient. 

 

Well, wasn't Rand following Baalzamon into Tel'Aran Rhiod at that moment, and - like Perrin in The Towers of Midnight, Ch 37, meeting Egwene in TAR during the battle for the White Tower against Mesaana - it was "just a weave", and Lews Therin knew how to deflect weaves in TAR. (He'd had a hundred or more years in learning how to manage TAR, and Baalzamon seems to have forgotton that.)

The passage from TGH is when Renna, a Seanchan sul'dam, is explaining to her new Damane, Egwene soon to be known as Tuli, the history of the marath'damane, the a'dam, the sul'dam and the damane. Apparently the Trolloc Wars never touched Seanchan, or at least that is what I've managed to understand from hints dropped in the books. And that was because the Aes Sedai in that part of the world, have gone through the Portal Stones to bring back the grolm, the raken, and other such creatures, which made short work of the Trollocs and Myrdraal.

So the people calling themselves Aes Sedai in Seanchan were every Aes Sedai for herself, and the Dark One take the hindmost. And they had not developed any central authority, much less bound themselves by any oaths. In effect, they are no longer Aes Sedai as understood before the War of Power; in no way "Servants of All". And as such, not bound by the Age of Legends' traditions of service, and not bound by any oaths to limit their use of the One Power, they seem to have gleefully used it in battle.

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Three_Oaths

goes into it. You might find it useful.

As I remember reading, the Three Oaths came about after the Trolloc Wars, about a thousand years after the Breaking. When King Artur Paendrag Tanreall happened along, it was about a thousand years after the Trolloc Wars. He distrusted Aes Sedai, iirc, and after a long time distrusting them, he laid siege to Tar Valon. I don't recall any reason given for that in any of the WoT series. I don't own all the extra books, though; it may have been given there, but I don't know.

Ishamael aka Baalzamon lka Moridin tells Rand in one of the dreams in TEotW:

" I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed."

The Seanchan are descendants of his armies and his son Luthair Paendrag and the inhabitants of those lands across the Aryth Ocean. From TGH:

"Egwene knew incredulity must be painting her face, because Renna laughed openly. "When Luthair Paendrag Mondwin, son of the Hawkwing, first faced the Armies of the Night, he found many among them who called themselves Aes Sedai. They contended for power among themselves and used the One Power on the field of battle. One such, a woman named Deain, who thought she could do better serving the Emperor - he was not Emperor then, of course - since he had no Aes Sedai in his armies, came to him with a device she had made, the first a'dam, fastened to the neck of one of her sisters. Though that woman did not want to serve Luthair, the a'dam required her to serve. Deain made more a'dam, the first sul'dam were found, and women captured who called themselves Aes Sedai discovered that they were in fact only marath'damane, Those Who Must Be Leashed. It is said that - when she herself was leashed, Deain's screams shook the Towers of Midnight, but of course she, too, was a marath'damane, and marath'damane cannot be allowed to run free. Perhaps you will be one of those who has the ability to make a'dam. If so, you will be pampered, you may rest assured." "

I don't recall it being quoted in the Old Tongue. I could be wrong, but I don't remember seeing it in any other language than English. The most prolific quoter of snippets of the Old Tongue is Mat, and he simply doesn't quote it.

We get a hint from the thoughts of one Semirhage, in [Spoiler alert]

Lord of Chaos
Chapter 6
Threads Woven of Shadow

Quote

How [Semirhage] did hate any who called themselves Aes Sedai. She had been one herself, a true Aes Sedai, riot an ignorant fool like the simpleton hanging before her. She had been known, famed, whisked to every corner of the world for her ability to mend any injury, to bring people back from the brink when everyone else said there was nothing more to be done. And a delegation from the Hall of the Servants had offered her a choice that was no choice: to be bound never to know her pleasures again, and with that binding be able to see the end of life approach; or else to be severed, and cast out as Aes Sedai. They had expected her to accept binding; that was the rational, proper thing to do, and they were rational, proper men and women. They never expected her to flee. She had been one of the first to go to Shayol Ghul.

The rods are known as binding rods; I think they are what Ishamael  refers to in the preface to The Eye of the world as the Nine Rods of Dominion, in his words to Lews Therin before "Healing" him of his insanity.

Details, please? Thanks

20 hours ago, Nasuadax said:

from what i understood the Oaths are all about the opinion of the oathtaker. There is no major power forcing things upon them, but a mental/physical inability to do things that you perceive as breaking the oaths.

 

This means that an Aes sedai cannot go into a circle knowing it will be used as a weapon without provocation. But if they are tricked into a circle, there is nothing blocking the master of the circle to use the full power of the circle as a weapon. Of course, as soon as the aes sedai notices the real goal, she will feel forced to try and escape it if she cannot consciously comply with the Oaths, but at this point, that is mainly impossible. 

As my opinion on the seanchan bracelets: As the book often suggests there are ways to remove the oaths. i always figured the seanchans knew of this and at one point in time forced this upon their da'mane. seeing as they were basically given their knowledge by a black aes sedai or one of the chosen dark ones, i think it is plausible this knowledge was passed with it. We never saw it in the book as the character was never far enough in the process of being mentally broken to force this.

 

the fact that the bracelets do not physically force them to do anything, but only causes pain and other things, means that the da'mane still choose to follow the orders and thus would still be bound to their Oaths as they are aware of what they are doing. This implies the oaths not applying anymore. How they are broken is for the reader to guess, but in the earlier paragraphs i suggested my opinion.

 

happy to hear your opinion on these topics and read what i missed/got wrong.

The Aes Sedai in the part of the world that became the Seanchan Empire were out of touch with the Randland Aes Sedai after the Breaking and the loss of the Art of Traveling. And their behaviour indicates they were probably a mixture of Darkfriend Aes Sedai and original Aes Sedai trapped into a never-ending cycle of hostilities by the Darkfriend Aes Sedai for at least two thousand years. The Randland Aes Sedai instituted the Three Oaths after the Trolloc Wars, when in the chaos of the time, they lost their original oversight of the nations of the time, and had to "prove" themselves to the new nations that sprang up after the three hundred years of devastation.

Given that the pre-Seanchan Aes Sedai were happily murdering each other when Luthair Paendrag arrived on the scene, it's highly doubtful that there were any Three Oaths to remove.

The arches are a part of what was once well known to everyone calling themselves Aes Sedai. They're part of the link to the past. And WoT lives quite heavily in the past, to the extent that poor Rand is thoroughly bewildered by Aviendha's assumption in The Shadow Rising that his riding a horse is part of his accepting changes more readily than she does.

All the same, we don't need to see everything. Only the parts that foreshadow, and the parts that hurt the most, I'd say.

Everybody knows about Robert Jordan's military service in Vietnam. I am hoping, for the sake of his reputation, that that was all it was restricted to. I've just come across a nasty little secret about the war that that war criminal and all-out creep Henry Kissinger started against Cambodians in Cambodia.

https://theintercept.com/2023/05/23/henry-kissinger-cambodia-bombing-survivors/

I assume everybody knows the Questioners express RJ's view of the CIA as he saw them in Vietnam. I wonder if Shaidar Haran was his view of Henry Kissinger, assuming he did actually know of the crime against peace and humanity that the US was waging against Cambodian civilians in the border region.

In the COT, Aviendha makes a comment about the pair of them melting each other, in response to a situation when Birgitte and Elayne reflect each other, Elayne Birgitte's hangover from drinking brandy to forget her grief over potentially losing Gaidal Cain, and Birgitte Elayne's pregnancy mood swings, and then adds, mysteriously, "but I think you already did," and I assume that she is referring to this incident.

Birgitte is a lot less inhibited than Elayne, and I suspect in the right company, she would regard an impromptu table dance as a laugh. And she is the first female Warder, and reflects her Aes Sedai's mood very closely; so I assume she joined in the festivities brought on by Elayne's unwitting use of the red rod ter'angreal. While Aviendha stood and stared and then joined in the laughter.

And then, in Crossroads of Twilight, we find Mat, having kidnapped Tuon in his escape from Tylin in the preceding book, being asked by Tuon if he remembers Artur Hawkwing's face. And he does, in Culain's memories of dying in the final battle between Aldeshar and Hawkwing's forces, and Hawkwing's final words to him as he lay dying. So of course he doesn't remember Hawkwing's face ... and Tuon, whose skill at reading lies is honed sharper than sharp by the hostile environment of her family's court, notes it, and is left open-mouthed ... 😲

1 hour ago, JyP said:

... a pink cylinder somewhat warm but firm and nobody wants to discuss it afterwards ? My main guess would be a sex toy which is inducing horniness.

That was the impression I got too. I guess (personal headcanon) Elayne did an uninhibited and impromptu dance on a table, sans vêtements (pardon the French 😀), so out of her usual character, and perhaps expressing her longing for one Rand Al'Thor ...

I've occasionally played around with such what-ifs and might-possiblys - after all " 'From Stone to Stone run the lines of "if," between the worlds that might be." 😀 "

But I've usually posed what-ifs along the lines of how would Harry Harrison's Yilane react to meeting Tolkien's Eldar? How would Brian Aldiss's phagors (ancipitals) react to meeting Tad Williams' Sithi? Etc ... What sort of story would result from the Eldar and the Sithi meeting up Helliconia? Would Elric of Melnibone, Prince of Ruins, feel threatened by meeting Melian in Menegroth? Meeting Seoman (Simon) Snowlock in Green Angel Tower facing off with Ineluki? Would Finrod Felagund feel quite at home in Tanelorn? Etc ...

On 4/13/2023 at 6:45 PM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Another one I just remembered is Nicola. I think that’s her name. Never quite trusted her. 

I always suspected her of being one of the Black Ajah Moghedien took with her in her hunt for the menagerie containing her bete noir, Nynaeve the unskilled country girl who had bested her in Tanchico. Likewise I suspected Areina of being another Black Ajah with her ability to channel shielded ...

When it turned out they were merely local color Moggie had dragged along with her to provide her with camoflage, I was surprised. But I suppose that was obvious when the two twits tried to blackmail Egwene in A Crown of Swords.

When Mat and Nalesean are watching Olver race on Pip, and they collect their winnings and Mat recollects he last saw a particular woman during the flight from the Myrdraal they encountered in Whitebridge ...

Nalesean: "Where are you going?"
"I saw a woman who tried to kill me," Mat said over his shoulder.
"Give her a trinket next time," Nalesean shouted after him.

And Nynaeve - she causes Aviendha much merriment when they first visit the Sea Folk ship in the Ebou Dari harbour, when she declares that only a ninny can think to threaten someone and get what she wants ... and promptly threatens one of the Sea Folk ....

It's the same crowd who try later to mug Mat, posing as beggars without having the proper brass rings to identify them as legitimate beggars. Nominal head the Whitecloak ambassador; so, not Elaida's crowd.

In my current reread of WOt, I've noticed again, how RJ manages to allude to various stories, rather than directly reference them. Culain's Hound, the inn where Verin and Alanna Seadai stay at with their collection of Two Rivers prospective novices such as Mat's sister Bodewhin, is one such; and if you don't know the story of how Cuchulainn of the Ulster Cycle of Old Irish stories, got his distinctive name, it'll slip right by you.

To wit, the young man Setanta was defending himself against the smith Culann's fierce guard dog, and killed it. He offered to take its place until a replacement could be found and thus became known as Cu Chulainn - Culann's Hound.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cú_Chulainn

For what very, very little it's worth, I had a bottle of Perrin the other day. (Pear Cider - very refreshing.)

I don't happen to have a child or a fur baby; but I suspect if I did, my (currently nonexistent) partner would not be impressed at the idea of naming a child after a character in a fantasy tale. Thinking of some past prospective partners, I expect they would be more interested in commemorating grandparents or friends than characters in novels. So far I've managed to name cats Doof (Food backwards: she was a foodaholic) and Catty-Puss (very discriminating, with sharp claws and no hesitation about using them. 🙂 ), but never Aviendha or Egwene or the like. 🙂

She could've easily have wound up inside the protected area set up by Moiraine in TEotW, and escaped Mashadar's devouring that way, while fleeing the terrors of the dark and claiming everything visible while it was light. (We never hear of her clearing it away, do we? Maybe in her tiredness she tied it and it stayed up for several years.)

Jaric Mondoran, to be precise ... and I'm pretty sure he was one of the Hundred Companions.

On 2/24/2023 at 3:00 AM, Some_random_novice said:

That is very interesting about the inspiration from Australian servicemen, I would never have figured it out. It definitely makes sense however. 
Also it was fairly obvious about a lot of the Westlands being Western countries especially Western European countries in history.

For the Great Shienarian Adjective's inspiration, you might like to consider these two poems by Australians as context:

https://www.australianculture.org/the-great-australian-adjective-w-t-goodge/

http://www.australianculture.org/the-austra-laise-c-j-dennis/

There's hints in some of the Forsakens' personal histories that we get a faint glimpse of. Moghedien's pre-Forsaken life as some sort of financial expert, and her predilections for hiding like a redback spider or funnelweb. Why would a financial expert be such an expert at hiding? Herself? (and presumably financial records way off the books?)

We do get hints from Rand's internal monologues, when he asks when did he ever give such-and-such a man, now one of his most vicious Forsaken opponents, less than his due? And a telling comment when he thinks this time he's nailed it because he was raised better this time round.

RJ was no linguist of the calibre of JRR Tolkien. WOT's Old Tongue is a sort of Classical Latin, which, since RJ wasn't a linguist, wasn't put together with any great overarching plan the way Tolkien put Sindarin and Quenya and his other Elvish languages together. There is an elementary grammar one can construct from sentences such as

"Muad’drin tia dar allende caba’drin rhadiem!"

"Footmen prepare to pass cavalry forward."

where muad = foot, caba = horse and drin = man while we can deduce that "tia"=prepare and precedes an infinitive (so Randlanders will never enjoy the sublime delights of splitting infinitives)

and such as

“Mia ayende, Aes Sedai! Caballein mirain ye! Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai mirain ye! Mia ayende!”

‘Free me, Aes Sedai! I am a free man. I am no Aes Sedai meat. Free me!’

from which we deduce that the object of an imperative verb always precedes the verb, and copulative sentences take the form of "Free man am I" and negative copulative sentences add the negation to the head of the sentence.

These sentences from a thousand years after the Breaking, spoken fluently by one of the elite of that time, is consonant with the use of Latin as a spoken language (though pronounced according to the Romance languages that had already sprung up) up to a thousand years after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

That said, it is indeed not in accordance with language habits for a common language to be universally spoken without some serious reasons. Usually it is either trade or major diplomatic (ie, everybody trying to avoid military confrontations) reasons; and more often trade than anything else. The only reason I could see for a uniformity of the common spoken language, would be the pre-eminence of Andor in trade and Tar Valon in finance and intelligence, tying together the north, south, east and west in a network of trade. Though one Artur Paendrag (Hawkwing) might have played no small part in crushing competitors with differing dialects.

Well, we can consider Andor, with its Queens-only rule, to be a Good Queen Bess+QEII England sort of thing. Tear is equally obviously a sort of Reformation-Era Spanish Empire and Illian - Ilium if you must - is likewise an Italian city-state with Venice in mind. While Shienar with Uno and his Great Shienarian Adjective seems to be based on the Australian servicemen I have no doubt RJ was quite familiar with during his tours of duty in the Vietnam War days. (A number of US servicemen gained very favourable impressions of the Australian servicemen during that war.)