Aes Sedai after Tarmon Gai'don

[Hannah Banana]

What are you theories about what will happen to the Aes Sedai after TG?

 

With the Taint being cleansed, it seems obvious to me that the Aes Sedai need to welcome the men back into the ranks. If they want to maximize the full potential of channeling, they need to work together, as in the AoL.

 

So will they all move into a now co-ed White Tower? Will the Tower somehow be destroyed? What will happen to the ajahs? Will they even still be called Aes Sedai? Will Rand become the new leader of them (I think that's controversial, since he's nowhere near the most experienced channeler around)? If so, will he still be called the "Amyrlin Seat", or something eles?

[phlpr23]

No where near the most experianced? If Rand and Lewis Therin begin to merge, as it has been speculated in many theories, then he would EASILY be the most experianced ... Personally, I don't see Rand wanting to be involved in the World, at all after TG. It's all up for grabs, whether or not the men wish to shorten their own lives by swearing the oaths. Also, they currently have very different styles of training. Either the men would need to change their training methods, or there would need to be a lot of space between the woman and the men lol. Also, if the men and woman do join up to become one, then I don't really see them having just 1 Amyrin Seat, I believe they would have two, a representative for the women, and the men.

[Guest Barmacral]

The Black Tower will be Rent in Fire and Blood, and the White Tower may be destroyed in the last battle as well (as all the black ajah start showing their true colours). So I think that both towers may well be left roaming in small bands of people again, until they come together and resolidify as a group and make themselves a new tower.

 

To support my theory, I'd like to point out that the world IS going to face another breaking according to the prophecies.

[Mathias]

I think that business about fire and blood means that there will be an eventual fight between the two factions, but I don't think that that will be the end of the Black Tower per-se. Also, the White tower has rent, with the "rebels" seeming to do well enough for themselves without the "White Tower."

 

I think that after TG things will go back to a sembelance of what they were in the AOL. Both the male and female Aes Sedai will be back to working together. Espically since they can now that the taint is cleansed.

[bradg2010]

The breaking the prophecies speak of could just be the fact that the world will be in chaos and war will spring up just about everywhere. Certainly the seanchan are likely to be one major difficulty. It will be chaos.

 

I can't remember exactly but wasn't Elaida building or planning on building a palace for herself that would have a spire as tall as the white tower. I remember reading that but i can't remember if it was just Elaida daydreaming or something. I mean i know she's conceited but her own palace? Anyway if the white tower does survive i think that would be a likely place for the asha'man to set up. Logain also seems like the possible future head of the Asha'man since min sees that glory in his future.

[BrainFireBob]

"and the Guardians balance the Servants"

 

Given that channelling continues into future Ages (a fact for which there is no guarantee- channelling may only have evolved in the AoL because the Wheel "sensed" the DO would soon be a factor again) it seems fairly clear there will be a return of the unity of female and male channellers. Perhaps using Elaida's palace as a basis.

[Guest Abaddon]

Just as an aside, When Lews Therin ran the Aes Sedai, he held the title of Ta'Amyrlin.

[GriffiN]

personally i believe that the two towers will be seperated by distance, but united. i don't have any basis for this, but there will be exchanges between the towers. also from what i remember, female AS were bonding male AS channelers, so in the end warders will be AS and/or warriors.

 

dont think Elaida will get her palace though. dunno.

[Guest Barmacral]

Elaida's Palace is already being built in the old Warder Yards. That it won't be completed I think is safe to say, but it is there, and for it to be taller than the tower itself is her goal.

[Hannah Banana]

No where near the most experianced? If Rand and Lewis Therin begin to merge' date=' as it has been speculated in many theories, then he would EASILY be the most experianced[/quote']

 

The keywords here being "if", "speculated", and "theories." So, yeat. That's a big IF.

 

Sure Rand currently experiences random benefits of LTT in his head--certain weaves that suddenly come to him. But his training was unorthodox and spotty. There's a lot he doesn't know. What he DOES know is pretty much what is necessary for him to fight for survival. It has been "speculated" that he is Talented working with weather, or earthsinging, but he has not had the time to learn anything about those strengths. So, yeah. He has a LOT to learn.

 

The other question is if Rand is cut out to be a leader of people. Politically, I think definitely not. Otherwise, he probably had solid leadership skills when he's not under a mountain of stress and pressure. Would he CHOOSE to be any kind of leader?

 

Will he retire from the world altogether, as some are speculating? I seriously doubt that. He's stronger than that, I think.

 

Men train differently because Rand needed them churned out ASAP, and because it's Taim setting the precedent. There's no reason for them to change their ways to a more conventional learning style, after things calm down after TG though. And if they do merge with the women, I assume they would. Otherwise, it would be like training soldiers where you have one group pretty much go out and pick fights with everyone they meet, and the other group actually learns by practicing with practice weapons in a classroom setting. Doesn't make sense to do both.

[bradg2010]

Experience wouldn't be the only factor though. This is a very hypothetical discussion and I don't personally believe that Rand will take charge but say there was a leader for the asha'man and a leader for the Aes Sedai then there is no doubt that besides the forsaken who i don't think will be applying for the job Rand is one of the most experienced male channelers. Other than that though you have to look at the word experienced. I don't think this hypothetical leader would be chose due to experience if you take experienced to mean who's done it the longest. That would mean Logain and whoever the oldest currently active aes sedai is(Cadsuane?). If you were referring to knowledge of different weaves I'd say Rand knows more than most Aes Sedai. Certainly before Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene went public with all of Moghediens teachings. He does remember most of what he gets from Lews Therin.

 

Politically speaking for a time there he was juggling the nation of Tear, the Aiel Nation, Cairhien, Andor, and Illian. Granted he had some rebellions and uncontrolable circumstances(Couladin and the Shaido, Rahvin causing chaos in Andor) but other than that he did a decent job. He cares for the commoners and handles the nobles through force but only when they continually work against him. Remember even before he came to those nations most were under dictatorships where the rulers no doubt did the same thing. Morgase cared for the people as a ruler and I'm sure if she had nobles working against her in a time of crisis she'd set them down just the same. So basically i don't understand your comment as to why he would do poor politically. Maybe he wouldn't enjot it but he'd do fine. Anyway even if Rand is qualified physically, mentally, politically, and whateverelsely after TG I don't see him ruling anywhere. Not sure why i just don't see it happening.

 

So my choices if their was a head of each after TG would be Egwene and Logain. Egwene is the rebel aes sedai amyrlin and logain is the head of the faction that opposes Taim in the black tower, plus he has that glory thing going for him so they seem like logical choices.

[phlpr23]

Rand isn't good enough Politcally ? LOLOLOLOLOL .... Wow, you do realize he pretty much rules half the world at this point correct ? The only reason Egwene is even managing is because she's listening to Suine's advice ... And anything Egwene can do, Rand can do 10x better.

[Hannah Banana]

Rand isn't good enough Politcally ? LOLOLOLOLOL .... Wow' date=' you do realize he pretty much rules half the world at this point correct ? The only reason Egwene is even managing is because she's listening to Suine's advice ... And anything Egwene can do, Rand can do 10x better.[/quote']

 

I'm sorry, which country is he actually ruling?

 

He has stewards, proxies, for all of them. He is not sitting there dealing with expenses, sewage problems, feeding a city, arming a city, etc. etc. He occasionally gives out mandates such as "send forces to this location." That's taking advantage of resources that he's conquered. But he's not RULING. I don't feel that he's managing his resources so much as just utilizing them. I think he's expressed how he dislikes dealing with nobles and the contentions therein. Whether or not he would be a good "king" is a debate that's been discussed elsewhere. Sure, he's a nice, morally upright guy, and he's not an idiot. But he tends to (of necessity, currently, to be sure) force people to do what he wants, with an iron fist if necessary. Unless the person is a female, in which case he could go either way.

 

/late night, half-baked musings

[phlpr23]

I'm sorry, but isn't appointing stewards part of ruling ? It's equivlent to Charles V and how he spread his empire apart ...

[isk]

yeah, Rand is more of a dictator than anything. I mean it's pretty obvious when he constantly repeats that he'll use anyone and everyone to win Tarmon Gai'don. sure, he can deal with intrigues and political opponents but Hannah is 100% right about matters of logistics.

 

he has a singular goal and he's working towards that. it's not so much ruling as it is temporary unification.

[Guest Abaddon]

There isnt anything wrong with being a dictator, that is the most efficent form of government, and rand has the most soldiers and power, so what he demands, he gets.

[isk]

I won't get into this too much because it's more of a general political issue than anything. it's just that while yes a dictatorship is certainly efficient, it's not always the best system.

[phlpr23]

Dictators are rulers :), just look at how managed to pit the nobles aganst each other. Even nobles from different countries against each other. You can't really expect him to focus on one country, he doesn't have enough time. He managed all that, under acouple days training under Moiraine ... He is also extremly good at reading the signs. Kind of like back when Min was taking him to Elayne, he knew what was coming up, and they sat there with stunned expressions. They couldn't believe that he did that on his own.

[phlpr23]

Acually, Rand is one of the best rulers in the series. He follows Machiovelle's "The Prince" method of ruling. He's forcing countries that ... hate each other, to do stuff ... Through fear. He correctly assumed that if he needs stuff done, he can't come off as a nice guy. When he needs stuff done, he needs it done right away.

[Luckers]

Machiavelle... and Hobbs too, while your at it, have never been entirely successful. It requires its people to one and all be philosophically like minded.

 

Rand succeeds with that path because underneath everything the people are aware of the need for his existence. They do as he says because they know that he is needed. Once the Last Battle is passed, that need expires. Do you think the likes of Logain, or the Atha'an Miere would follow him without that need? The Aes Sedai that serve him have stated that that service will only last till the conclusion of Tarmon Gai'don, and the Aiel--whilst the respect him--do as he says only for the point of prophecy. They have their own perfectly workable system of government, and whilst i dont doubt they will continue to treat him with respect, they will return to that method of government the instant the Last Battle is past.

 

As for the Aes Sedai. Well my first thought is that i see no reason that the men will seek to join them, or the Aiel or Windfinders. Even the Kin may start to have second thoughts. Their air of inherent greatness has faded.

 

Therefore in the aftermath they will have peers. People who will not balk at challanging what they say simply because they are Aes Sedai. They will need to change the basic philosophies with which they rule their lives, or they will... die out.

 

I think the potential for them to do that is already appearing in the likes of Egwene and Pevara and Tarna. Frankly i think in the aftermath some sort of alliance between channeling groups will be worked out. Something lose, akin to the Peace of Rhuidean amongst Aiel, but there. Maybe with exchange programs in training young women.

 

Additionally i feel they will need to take a more pro-active effort in finding and training young women. Their attitude that the world will fall into line for them was working whilst the rest of the world grew up in the indoctrinated ideal of Aes Sedai existence, but between the recent... clarity that has been drawn, and the existence of the Seanchan indoctrination, which is exactly opposite, people will be thinking about this... they will be forced to by the appearence of difference.

[Guest Abaddon]

I dont think you understand, theorhetically after the last battle, if rand survives. And loses none of his potency, he still will be the strongest male channeler, a vetran of war and a brilliant military strategist, he will posses the strongest Sa'Angreal. He will still have his amazing charisma, and contrary to your beliefs i think he will still have the aiel, and if he is lucky, the black tower, that makes him the single most powerful man on the face of Randland.

[Luckers]

Why would the Aiel remain? The car'a'carn is no king, worthy of their obedience. The Black Tower feels little to no alleigence to him--its one of the big problems stemming from his lack of involvement, and has been commented on many times. At best they will obey Logain on behalf of him.

 

Given the recent influx of strong channelers, his strength will not hold him far, and even assuming that the Choedan Kal survives the Last Battle, which strikes me as unlikely, so what. Do you really see Rand suddenly developing a desire to rule by the fist--not for the good of the light, but for himself.

 

I do not doubt that he will retain respect. I do not see that respect being any sort of a basis for political power. He rules now out of nessesity, and even now people speak constantly of how nothing in the prophecies suggests he should rule. It has been a major part of the mutterings against him. If he tries to rule following the Last Battle, without the nessesary need for his existence as established by prophecy, how long do you think he will last before the nations turn on him. He will lose the aid of the Aes Sedai, the Atha'an Miere, the likes of Logain and Nynaeve, Bashere, Cadsuane.

 

He rules quite often by bullying, and its accepted out of nessesity. Following the Last Battle, without that Nessesity...

 

And then there is the fact that there is no chance he would want to rule...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Indeed, the only reason Rand keeps holding onto his power is that he knows he's going to die at Tarmon Gaidon. Despite his increasingly despotic style, he has no real personal ambition to power. He's a true example of a reluctant despot.

 

As for the various channeling groups in a post-Tamon Gaidon world, I think that within the lifetime of people now living, the ability to channel will begin to die out of the populace, so that within say a thousand years, it will be virtually unknown, and within a couple hundred, groups of channelers will have greatly reduced influence. Egwene al'Vere may end up being one of the greatest Amyrlin Seats ever, but I think that she will also be one of the last. Thats personal opinion though.

[Luckers]

I've never agreed with the immediacy that some people feel that the ability to channel will disapear. Yes, by the first age it needs to be unknown, but that is four ages away.

 

I also feel that the Aes Sedai have over-dramatised the decline. For starters due to the Oath Rod half the Aes Sedai that should be alive today are dead and gone. Secondly the lack of an active recruitment campaign has resulted in 3 out of four wilders dying, and none of the learners who do not go to the tower during that brief period that they are of age to gain admittence never manifest their ability. Concider that... a lack of daring amongst women aged 14 to 20 in a fuedal world where Aes Sedai are feared and at times actively hated controlling the number of Aes Sedai there are. Then there is their high turn out rate, for despite their repeated insistance that if there is a fault with a novice, they fix it, there are still thousands of channelers that are put out of the tower... effectivelly given up on.

 

Finally the reapearence of male channelers suggests some coupling is in the works... if there is trully a problem resulting from the culling of channelers resulting from the taint, then it can still be fixed.

 

Thats precluding the possibility that it was the food, or general living style of the Age of Legenders that resulted in a higher amount of channelers... certainly we know that it had dramatic physical effects. And what of the influence of the Dark One... it has seen a general decline in the human population, why not in the channeling population?

[DragonSpawn]

Thinking realistically why would all these groups wish to converge into the Tower in the first place? The Aeil wise women are old and traditional and see themselves higher then the Tower, I doubt they will stoop to go knee to some Amyrlin and get switched by some Mistress of the Novices when they don't blindly follow orders.

Same with the sea folk. I also doubt that the people of Shara will give any thought to what some Woman sitting in a tower on the other end of the world has to say to them about giving her their female channelers.

 

It is the same with the men, they are now building their great citadel outside Caemlyn, why should they give up their roots to join up in a Tower which has seen the death of many innocent men only guitly of the crime of having the genetic specifics of possessing the spark.

 

 

I personally believe the Tower had it's golden era and is now in decline. The Black Tower will have an allegiance with the White Tower, however I doubt the two will join into one. Simply because in the Black Tower are many men with wives and family and the life in the Black Tower allows them to live thus.

Another note of interest, one of the Ashaman told that most men who had wives put something resembling a bond on them inorder to always know that they are feeling well or are in pain or not. Why should a married man with children who is already bonded with his wife subjugate himself to the bond of another third woman who has no relevance to the closeness of his family and would impede on the personal bond between husband and wife they formed?

 

Perhaps the Kin will fuse back into the White Tower, but of the others I see little chance. Same with the Seanchan, they have a great Empire (although in chaos at the moment). I think in the old Seanchan territories many will continue the practice. How is the saying, old habits die hard? Perhaps in the newly conquerred areas of Randland they will be more lenient and send them to the White Tower, however judging the Seanchan character I doubt that somewhat.