[BASIC/STANDARD] Warcraft: War of the Ancients Mafia - GAME OVER, MAFIA WINS

Cass · January 13, 2016

Hi, I'm here.

Umm comment is irrelevant from Cass, if you wanted a comment on that, Shad.

Pointing out obscure things like that is normal for her?

no, that's not what I meant

I meant that the Umm comment that Penny made was irrelevant to her tone, and that Cass shouldn't have pointed it out.

Why shouldn't she have? Isn't that what her job as a villager should be?

Lenny could be right about the umm being irrelevant to tone, but yes, I point out obscure stuff (Zander, why did you lolololol after that sentence instead of before??) and actually, the Penny's post stood out to me for two reasons:

- She was calling a questionnaire-type post 'unnecessary WIFOM' after recently having used a questionnaire-type post herself when Town;

- The 'umm' read condescending/fake to me/was not something I've seen Penny use in chat/either of her two games.

It stood out to me, I pointed it out to see what would happen. IIRC Penny had no reaction until I mentioned she was also snippy like I'd never seen before, which both Wish and her say is Town. Meh.

Askthepizzaguy · January 13, 2016

Celeste. O m g. Don't say things like that. Okay, yeahhh This is behavior that comes from town Celeste. She'll say self sacrificing things. The emo! It smells so townie. Lol Evanescence *shudders*

So the next time she rands scum, if it isn't this game, she knows how to falsely clear herself.

This is why I don't like relying on other people's understanding of players I haven't played with before. Because sometimes their back door is wide open with the latch busted off.

That's NOT a good reason to clear Celeste, please find me a different one.

Take your blinders off and really give Celeste a good look once this game. You owe it to yourself, if nothing else.

Cass · January 13, 2016

Im still out and about today but I'll be home soon...

Nolder, if we're a team, why not provide us with all the information you can today in case you get lynched? Btw, nothing is guaranteed, so you as might as well do the work so we have something to go off of.

I honestly just don't want to do the work if there's no point.
And from what you guys are saying you have your minds made up.

So what's the point in casing? You know where I stand and you should more or less know why by now even if I didn't dig into every detail.

4 scum against a cop doc and vig seems way way way more stacked for scum than I'm used to on DM, but I have failed miserably at predicting set-ups in the past. Why are we all convinced there are 4 scum again?

My theory was 4 scum because the first 2 weren't roled. I guess it's possible there's 1 GF left or something but it seems risky especially with a vig.
4 goons makes more sense to me.

So today is pretty important. Are we going to yolo lynch Pral/Celeste/Nolder and hope one of these solves the game? It's entirely possible. Maybe the most likely possibility. But the probability isn't as high as I would prefer.

But if not, how do you begin to reignite the hunt and create an environment where scum can do scummy things? Because there's nothing inherently scummy about wtl Pral/Celeste/Nolder atp.

You played with Nol as scum in my game. I don't think he was this disinterested, right? He partly gave up but was still interested in fighting. This game, he is very odd. Don't think it is intentional.

I burn out on long games and/or games with a lot of people (TUS).
I just can't cope with the amount that goes on.

I can force it for a little while but after a point I just give up.

That's mostly my fault but people like Xander lolololing to page 100 doesn't exactly help either.

Burnout is understandable, but why wouldn't you want to do the work and what do you have to 'force' as Town??

(Work is what Town does, only scum 'force')

Re numbers of scum:

Can't link because mafia on tablet fails.

Real Genius

13 players: 9 Town, 3 Mafia, 1 Survivor

Town have: Cop, Doc, 1xVig

Mafia have: GF, 1 x RB

Wind in the Door

12 players: 9 Town, 3 Mafia

Town have: Cop, Doc, Innocent Child

Mafia have: (1 x RB) x 3

Typical 13er

13 players:

Town have: Cop with n0 peek

Mafia have: 3 wolves, 1 with powers

I agree/think we're looking for 3, even with the Vig.

Wish, in your experience, how does scum!Cass react to someone suspecting her?

Not all of town barreling down. Just one person starting to ramp up on her.

I can't tell you how scum!Cass reacts to someone suspecting her. (Never seen it from a first-hand experience)

However, town!Cass reacts to suspicion in such a way (if it's one person):

Dismisses the accusations, or says something kind of wolfy in response (l o l). In the game of hers I watched on PerC, she was town mason and she didn't seem all too worried by one person's allegations against her, if I recall correctly. If this is wrong, Cass, please correct me.

TBH I don't care unless the allegations seem serious/is likely leading to a mislynch. I'm happy for people to FoS if it fosters more interaction/communication. Either they're mistaken Town, or Scum looking for a mislynch, the more you communicate one on one, the more things come out in the wash.

As Scum my reaction would depend on the type of accusation, timing etc.

@Shad, why'd you ask this question?/Why is it relevant to this game?

Songstress · January 13, 2016

MOD NOTE:

24 HOURS TO DEADLINE

Shad_ · January 13, 2016

Woooow Shad :( Just read your "Wish is the most obvious town ever" comment, but I still wanna lunch her up tomorrow L o l

huh?

Shad_ · January 13, 2016

What is popcorn consent?

A consensus town or two going "I want to lynch Joe" and everyone else going "yeah that sounds good let's do it" without further explanation.

Which isn't necessarily what happened--you have to look back in time a bit and see what people had to say beforehand--but the enthusiasm to lynch Nolder felt that way in the moment.

Shad_ · January 13, 2016

@Shad, why'd you ask this question?/Why is it relevant to this game?

Is asking questions about how people behave as mafia in Mafia odd/irrelevant? At any rate I explained what specifically brought it to mind.

You never got to the questions that matter most to me though. :dry:

Shad_ · January 13, 2016

I'll be out for most of the day. Should have my cellphone available sporadically.

wish-tree · January 13, 2016

Celeste. O m g. Don't say things like that. Okay, yeahhh This is behavior that comes from town Celeste. She'll say self sacrificing things. The emo! It smells so townie. Lol Evanescence *shudders*

So the next time she rands scum, if it isn't this game, she knows how to falsely clear herself.

This is why I don't like relying on other people's understanding of players I haven't played with before. Because sometimes their back door is wide open with the latch busted off.

That's NOT a good reason to clear Celeste, please find me a different one.

Take your blinders off and really give Celeste a good look once this game. You owe it to yourself, if nothing else.

Alright.

>.<

Cass · January 13, 2016

@Shad, why'd you ask this question?/Why is it relevant to this game?

Is asking questions about how people behave as mafia in Mafia odd/irrelevant? At any rate I explained what specifically brought it to mind.
You never got to the questions that matter most to me though.

Which questions? Thought I'd answered them all?

Fell asleep mid Nolder ISO.

General thoughts so far:

- Fluff/gun question rather than providing opinions early on

- Deflects requests for reads right from the start

- Later claims hunting 'someone'

- Interaction with Zander interesting/?off - OTT defensive at start/jokey/non-committal from there

- Hedgey/null on Csarmi - later balks at vote, really likes his catch up/attitude (attitude was not Town!Csarmi[/i]

- Focuses on Celeste looking scummy/disagreeing with Pizza's not WTL

- WTL as of p.66 Pral, Celeste, Pizza, states preference reverse order, but still votes Pral

- Suggests doubling down on Pral because it's 'gaining traction'

- Brings me up as top scum from early on, reasons include wary of Alanna/Zander and voting Csarmi...

I'm gonna leave it there for now and go to bed for real. Will try to finish more tomorrow. Gut feel still puts him as very possible Scum to me.

Cass · January 13, 2016

@ Shad,

Meh, checked back and last post of replies didn't post earlier.

If there's something else I'm missing lmk

Kind of not feeling good on Kaylee with how much Zander said they are mind melding.

[v]Kaylee[/v]

I'm not opposed to this but I really need to figure you two out.

The vibe I got toward EoD was that Kaylee did a lot to get out of her lynch, and she did it well. This could come from Scum or Town Kaylee IMO. My gut feel later was that she could be scum bussing Csarmi and buddying me once Csarmi started going down (if I've understood correctly, this is in Kaylee's meta and something she does well). It was a strong feel and FWIW if she's the scum this fits with Shad's theory that I'm scum scapegoat in Zander's eyes. There were a couple of things she said that I thought were either indications that she was genuinely more confident that I was Town or buddying me. It freaked me out a little and I backed off to see how she'd respond today. I wish I could trust her, but I don't.

On the other hand, I always read Kay scum. She's impossible for me. She could be Town.

Cass, help me out a bit. Can you link me to a game in which you struggled to read Kaylee?

- House of Cards

- Frozen

Scummed against her in HoC, spectated Frozen. Couldn't understand/wouldn't have read her Town for most of HoC if I'd been Town, had her null-scum from beginning of Frozen before checking DT.

I want to know, specifically, if Csarmi being calm, agreeable and eager to please, or Pral becoming active/catching up are tells.

weird thought

Perhaps? Thought process:

Csarmi is being calm and agreeable/eager to please. Haven't seen this when he's been Town. Is it something he specifically does when Scum? (ie, is it a scum tell?)

Pral is making a bit of a deal about catching up. Have seen Pral Town several times, don't recall him ever being active/concerned about making a big deal about catching up. Wonder if he tries harder/cares more about thread image/self pres when Scum?

First of all how do you think I feel forced?(1) Second "our scum game" Have we played together before....???? Or are you referring to Alanna?(2) Cory knows my soul and he will be able to help clear things up for you!!!!
1. Did you get to the post where I actually sat down and answered the question yet? Read on that (and this post) please..!2. We've never played together before. I'm referring to Alanna. I'm slightly insulted/incredulous that you think you may have forgotten if we'd played together. I also thought it was obvious that I was talking to Alanna, so you being dramatic about it makes me raise an eyebrow. I don't particularly like the things I bolded coming from you, but when I look at the points I'm lining up against you it's like looking in a mirror. I will so laugh if we are T-T tinfoiling our way to misreads! I can totally see us doing so, based on paranoia/possibility personality. Again, not voting to lynch you yet. But if you're a wolf, I'm gonna hunt you down I think it's too early for either of us to call the other wolf tbh. Not removing wary gut feels, but definitely allowing for the possibility you may be Town . What's your actual take on our interactions right now?
Cass, what did you mean by red?

Exactly what I said, it was kind of unbelievable that he'd forget playing with me - we're chat friends and he's joked a lot about wanting to play/see me play ITC, the 'Have we played together before....???? Or are you referring to Alanna' was OTT fake-derp.

Cass · January 13, 2016

Back after sleep and cleaning are done. Ninight.

Nolder · January 13, 2016

Why am I being asked about things that I've already gone over more than once?

It can't be Nomi/Cass if it is Shad/Celeste.

I changed my mind at the start of D2.

alannalynn · January 13, 2016

We can't just slack at this point. We have me/pral/nolder who are confusing the masses. If my flip is necessary to lynch the last two scum who are also confusing to others than do it. I don't want to be a hindrance anymore if it helps town win.

BADDD NO STOP. This is horrible. (lol Pizza too, #1401)

I think I also saw an appeal from Pizza for Wish to take a second look at Celeste. Lenny are you going to do that? You can probably read her better than the rest of us, taking away bias.

I'm also sorry I'm feeling annoyed, but I am. It's just how it is.

Focus on lynching wolves. Ignore these distractions.

Who I'm pretty certain are Pral/Nolder

Celeste, I actually think you're wrong here. Pral has been looking increasingly better, and Nolder is within town meta, unfortunately.

alannalynn · January 13, 2016

fwiw she laid out all of his reads lists in a later post Pral. No need to dig for them.
Ýep, saw that on my read through now. Thanks Alanna

Confirms what I was thinking.

Zander mixes it up but at the same time he likes to distribute his reads. It could be town-null or town-scum etc. In this case, csarmi wasn't exactly playing - so he had no choice but to put him in null. The other wolf, based on my other reads, is in shad/cass/nolder or celeste. I have townish leaning reads on Shad and Nolder and as I said yesterday, wolfish read on Cass.

So, that is where I am - cass/celeste

I even put them in chronological order! (thumbs up) Will be handy in future games too lol

#4150 @CASS, is Cory telling you to be less paranoid?

Also, some of the things I see you pointing out about Nolder are townie for him. He tends to be scummy in both roles, but a lot of his interactions this game are not scum!Nolder.

alannalynn · January 13, 2016

That's good enough for lazy Pizza.

At least Nolder has had the decency to be annoying.

Unvote Nolder

Vote: Cass

I approve of this.

Sorry I didn't get more done whilst you were lazy :P

#4107 Agreed, Pizza. Unfortunately lynching people with that attitude doesn't help the town and doesn't give enough real information.

#4111 Nolder, I know it's hard to believe, but people make mistakes. Pizza isn't the only person in the town. We voted with him knowing fully well that we could be wrong. For all your talk about this being a team game, you're certainly not acting like it and trying to make other villagers feel like sh*t for making a bad decision is a crappy move. Please improve your attitude.

alannalynn · January 13, 2016

Why am I being asked about things that I've already gone over more than once?

It can't be Nomi/Cass if it is Shad/Celeste.

I changed my mind at the start of D2.

I legit don't like going back into your ISO over and over again to see where you talk about things. It's also difficult for mobile users, fyi

alannalynn · January 13, 2016

[v]Cass[/v]

Songstress · January 13, 2016

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

Pral (2): Celeste, Wish

Celeste (1): Nolder

Cass (2): Pizza, Laine

Not voting (3): Pral, Cass, Shad

----------

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline for Day 3 is Thursday, January 14 at 9:00 AM MST (11 AM EST)

http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20160114T09&p0=197&msg=End+of+Day+Three&font=cursive&csz=1

Celeste · January 13, 2016

We can't just slack at this point. We have me/pral/nolder who are confusing the masses. If my flip is necessary to lynch the last two scum who are also confusing to others than do it. I don't want to be a hindrance anymore if it helps town win.

BADDD NO STOP. This is horrible. (lol Pizza too, #1401)

I think I also saw an appeal from Pizza for Wish to take a second look at Celeste. Lenny are you going to do that? You can probably read her better than the rest of us, taking away bias.

I'm also sorry I'm feeling annoyed, but I am. It's just how it is.

Focus on lynching wolves. Ignore these distractions.

Who I'm pretty certain are Pral/Nolder

Celeste, I actually think you're wrong here. Pral has been looking increasingly better, and Nolder is within town meta, unfortunately.

Then who? I'm just going with what I have seen and who I think has similar play styles to them on my home site. This is just confusing since they are players I have only played once or twice with and they point out to me more then you or pizza.

Askthepizzaguy · January 13, 2016

I would like to Cass in real time before day ends, I have one question for her and I want it answered within a few minutes of me asking it.

Otherwise my vote stays. What's your time frame, Cass?

Askthepizzaguy · January 13, 2016

*talk to Cass in real time

I am not sure what Cass-ing is, but it's not what I was going for there.

Celeste · January 13, 2016

Hey Laine or Shad can you link me to a Cass scum game?

alannalynn · January 13, 2016

Hey Laine or Shad can you link me to a Cass scum game?

This is the only one I've played with her: Middle Earth

alannalynn · January 13, 2016

Trying to dig up what Nolder has said about Shad...

Link

Shad - Shad is kind of in the same boat as Xander. I have a lot of contradictory notes and don't know what to do with him yet. He started out bad in posts #15/16. I thought it was weird to mention the players he didn't have meta on right at the start like he was setting up mislynches early. In post #617 he gave a reads list and I thought it was weird he had Csarmi at the top of it. He said he explained why but I never found the explanation. I liked his question to Turin in post #717. Then he started the whole Wish/Celeste thing. In post #788 he says Celeste is town and Wish could be either but is probably town. Post #799 stood out to me because he says he's basing his read on Celeste based on Wish's behavior. I think that stuff is ok later in the game but it seems really early not to judge people on their own merits. In post #1103 he said he was getting good vibes from me which I found a little strange and out of nowhere but it's not necessarily a bad thing. So Shad I don't know what to do with.

LINK

Slots I NEED to resolve on D2: Shad, Xander, Kaylee, Turin.

That's my goal anyway.

LINK

Shad

#15/16 - Weird to mention all the players you do and don't have meta on right at the start. Like you're setting up excuses for mislynches on townies maybe. (-1)

#429 - Points for question. (+1.5)

#617 - Gives reads list. Weird that he has Csarmi at the top. Says he explained it but may have missed the explanation. (0)

#717 - Good questions posed to Turin. (+1)

#788 - Says Celeste is probably town. Says Wish could be either town or scum but probably town. (0)

#799 - Basing his read on Celeste off how Wish acts. This doesn't bother me later in the game when connections are being made but it seems very early to me to draw these kinds of conclusions. (-0.5)

#1103 - Says he's getting good vibes from me. (0)

LINK

Taking a break from Shad ISO, might not finish it until later tonight.

I have some cleaning I need to do and maybe laundry.

Gun to head I'm going to say Pral is town.
I wish there was more content to work with but sometimes gotta make tough call.

Ok who's next?
Shad how about you. Ok let's go.

Ok.

Talk to me. What are your concerns?

Let's start here and hopefully I'll have more for you tomorrow night.

#15/16 - Weird to mention all the players you do and don't have meta on right at the start. Like you're setting up excuses for mislynches on townies maybe. (-1)

#617 - Gives reads list. Weird that he has Csarmi at the top. Says he explained it but may have missed the explanation. (0)

#799 - Basing his read on Celeste off how Wish acts. This doesn't bother me later in the game when connections are being made but it seems very early to me to draw these kinds of conclusions. (-0.5)

These are your old notes iirc. Have you advanced on any of these thoughts so far?

Blue -- I named you, Lenlo, Laine, Zander as the people I think I can read well. What has my approach to these four people done to strengthen or lessen your concern?

Green -- It was definitely a bad reason, as things panned out, but I explained it again later. I don't know if I explicitly stated "this was my original reason" or if I just reiterated the reason, but did anything about my treatment of csarmi towards the end of D1 ping you?

Red -- I am still basing a lot of my Celeste read on the same principle. What are your thoughts on Wish/Celeste interaction?

No. I cancelled my note taking at the start of the day. It was taking up too much of my time.

1) You're not addressing my concern you're just stating a fact and then asking me a question. Deflection?

2) Towards the end? Not that I recall. I was more focused on Nomi than you though.

3) This doesn't address my concern with you basing your read on Celeste off Wish so early in the game. I've already stated I think it's weird how Wish and Celeste link themselves every game but I guess that's their thing. Don't think it's alignment indicative.

Link: "think final scum Shad and Celeste"

Link: Says Shad was deflecting (quoted longer exchange)

Link: "So I'm not going to waste my time arguing and casing and whatnot when there's still a chance you could be town.:

Some yelling about Shad reads at start of game

Link ~stuff

I literally hate that I had to do this and Nolder couldn't just simply lay out his case on Shad if he's still calling him scum. It's like what Zander used to do with his reads and tell people to go back in his ISO and find it themselves :rolleyes:

From what I can tell:

1. Nolder believes Shad was trying to set up mislynches by mentioning who he reads well at the start of d1

2. Nolder doesn't like that Csarmi was at the top of Shad's list early. (didn't Nolder do the same thing? I'm pretty sure he refused to vote Csarmi at EOD1)

3. Nolder does not like that Shad was reading Wish/Celeste interactions based on how they acted in relation to each other? (I think I"m getting this one wrong)

4. Nolder doesn't like that Shad is town reading Nolder

5. Nolder believes that Shad was deflecting his questions and then Nolder refused to ask his questions differently when Shad requested but still blamed it on Shad that he didn't answer his questions how he wanted.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[BASIC/STANDARD] Warcraft: War of the Ancients Mafia - GAME OVER, MAFIA WINS

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