[BASIC/STANDARD] Warcraft: War of the Ancients Mafia - GAME OVER, MAFIA WINS

[Askthepizzaguy]

Zander bud, I'm going to need you to turn solid blue D2, or else I can't move on.

 

Do you feel me?

[Zander?]

Zander bud, I'm going to need you to turn solid blue D2, or else I can't move on.

 

Do you feel me?

 

Feeling people is in my job description brother.

[Askthepizzaguy]

*hugs*

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza, you'd do well to read up on a few games of Turin to get a feel for him. He's not a trivial read (has a quite non-standard way of playing).

 

I mean, this is a good look for Turin, not that his claim didn't already make me stop looking for stuff about him.

 

This is how Csarmi behaved with regard to Kaylee.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Just something I saw while re-reading Zander again.

[Zander?]

*hugs*

 

*hugs*

 

I think youre gonna be proud of me!!!!

[Cass]

Here and catching up! 

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

 

 

Zander: it wad more effort than I felt she'd given all game.

Was kinda my point...lololololol

 

I don't want to rush a lynch. Looks like Wish, Celeste, Kaylee, and Csarmi are who everyone's recently talked about lynching. I'd go Nol too.

 

What are cases thoughts on these? Who should be lynched? I'm looking for more reason than POE.

 

Why Nol and Csarmi? Can you share youre thoughts on them for me. With some quotes would be really good.

No longer Nol,but I guess your haven't read that from me yet.

 

Csarmi I said because he's on my bottom,a null POE. I've said as much.

 

 

But voting from null PoE as your only reason on D1 isnt enough imo.

 

 

.

[Nolder]

 

Pizza please help me out cause going back and quoting stuff is a pain.  Why did you back off of Kay again?  Was it only because the general Town consensus was Town reading her?

 

In a world where Kaylee was guilty, the case I plopped down on her was devastating. Some people disagreed with it, but the in-thread evidence was damning and the two cited example games of hers which were villager just added to the case, and her own words in the thread were really self-incriminating.

 

So if she's a wolf, it's time to bus, or pretend you didn't see the case.

 

Defending her, or actively opposing her lynch, or pushing other people hard, it's difficult for the wolves to ignore such a case made on one of their own.

 

If a bunch of villagers jump on that lynch and the wolves don't do so, then they are out in the cold. When it's clear that Kaylee is not going to be the deep wolf, the decision has to be made to defend, bus, or ignore.

 

IMO, if she were guilty, at the very, very least, the wolves would have said the case was compelling.

 

But some people who were not in my blue or green were dismissing it. Csarmi in particular without ever considering it. (a) before I made the case, (b) while giving me links, and © afterward. He just justified it as "that's not how I read people."

 

That's ridiculously incriminating for Csarmi if Kaylee were guilty.

 

I made the decision at that point that as well researched and effort-put-into that case was, it was likely to be incorrect.

 

I also made the decision that if it were correct, the case itself would be enough to destroy her late-game.

 

I pushed her up in my process of elimination based on the reaction to the case, not because Kaylee exonerated herself personally.

 

She was NOT consensus town, in fact, some folks were considering the case.

 

But enough people were backing off that, it's kind of like someone trying to sneak away from the scene of a bombing that was about to happen. You kind of get the feeling that something bad is about to happen and they don't want to be anywhere near it, and they knew in advance that it was a good idea to be nowhere near the scene of the disaster.

 

That's the principle. It's actually basic human behavior, very simple to understand, but I doubt very many players use this kind of read to guide their voting.

 

I even said at one point, I wanted to lynch one of the people who said Kaylee was innocent. That was the first thought I had after I read the amalgam of responses to my case on her.

 

Of those people, Csarmi seemed the worst by far, because of his specific behavior.

 

And I made that decision rather rapidly and began pushing it then.

 

That's how it all went down.

 

Not putting it in my notes but I like this post.

You're not changing your mind about what you saw but rather you seem to realize that for whatever reason it's townkaylee that's doing it. 

 

Doesn't change how I feel about you but maybe if you keep this up I'll get confused and torn lol.

[Nolder]

Hey Cass now that it's out in the open, what do you think of my thinking you're mafia?

Am I insane? Are you just making mistakes? What's going on here? What would you do for a klondike bar?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Nolder, please examine Zander's progression on Csarmi.

 

This is a behavior I spotted before on a GITP game, between Fleeing Coward and Banjo.

 

IMO Zander was never prioritizing Csarmi (it's fine by itself, not a lot of people were)

 

But, he did keep making references to Csarmi being worthy of a vote anyway, such as post better you're not 5, use real words, policy lynch you, these are from the same post but essentially what I'm saying is that he's left little distancing attempts between himself and Csarmi, such that if he ever has to bus Csarmi it will look legit.

 

But, it's not really legit imo.

 

He's putting those little crumbs there to indicate his opposition to Csarmi for distancing purposes, but it looks like a policy decision he decided on off-thread.

 

Next, when Csarmi is in the thread later on, he makes a post or two distancing a little more, but still no real push.

 

After it starts to look bad on Csarmi is when he quotes a bunch of Csarmi posts and completes the distancing action.

 

It has all the classic signs of soft-distancing which is low risk, then soft-bussing, rather than hard bussing which is what he usually does.

 

If I die tonight I want someone to carry my banner on the matter.

 

If I survive, I'll re-examine him.

[Askthepizzaguy]

we still have time left before dl

 

i wanna look at Csarmi and those who are voting him to see if they were sussing him beforehand

 

vote count please.

 

Foreknowledge of Csarmi's flip.

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

i really dont see a reason to not vote Csarmi but i was wrong about him in SW and he was wtf there as well

 

After the ISO, mitigates his distancing and makes it lower risk to distance from him.

 

He still wants to push wish even after doing the ISO, which the timing of that ISO for example was pretty bad.

[Nolder]

Nolder, please examine Zander's progression on Csarmi.

 

This is a behavior I spotted before on a GITP game, between Fleeing Coward and Banjo.

 

IMO Zander was never prioritizing Csarmi (it's fine by itself, not a lot of people were)

 

But, he did keep making references to Csarmi being worthy of a vote anyway, such as post better you're not 5, use real words, policy lynch you, these are from the same post but essentially what I'm saying is that he's left little distancing attempts between himself and Csarmi, such that if he ever has to bus Csarmi it will look legit.

 

But, it's not really legit imo.

 

He's putting those little crumbs there to indicate his opposition to Csarmi for distancing purposes, but it looks like a policy decision he decided on off-thread.

 

Next, when Csarmi is in the thread later on, he makes a post or two distancing a little more, but still no real push.

 

After it starts to look bad on Csarmi is when he quotes a bunch of Csarmi posts and completes the distancing action.

 

It has all the classic signs of soft-distancing which is low risk, then soft-bussing, rather than hard bussing which is what he usually does.

 

If I die tonight I want someone to carry my banner on the matter.

 

If I survive, I'll re-examine him.

If I'm not dead when day 2 starts I'll do it then.

Xander is one of the people I want to ISO and resolve tomorrow anyway.

[Cass]

Sorry got interrupted by visitors.

 

Still not caught up but

 

Hey Cass now that it's out in the open, what do you think of my thinking you're mafia?

Am I insane? Are you just making mistakes? What's going on here? What would you do for a klondike bar?

 

I am 100% Town and you're probably not insane.

 

I'm struggling but I'm getting to it.

 

What do you need to know?

[Shad_]

 

 

 

The cat gif that I posted makes me really uncomfortable. I want to catch the kitty.

Declawing a cat is pretty mean. It's like cutting off someone's fingers. :\

 

 this is horrible

 

I literally de-friend anyone that says declawing is a good thing.

 

I'm pretty sure I never mentioned declawing..  :(

 

The cat would have caught itself otherwise.

[Cass]

Sorry, just realised that first part might be confusing. I'm making a joke because I'm crazy when I play this game - as either alignment - and it's not insane that people don't get where I'm coming from or what's going on in my head sometimes. 

 

I guarantee you anything that's making you think I'm scum is a combination of mistake/misread. People who are trying to get me lynched without trying to understand where I'm coming from are probably scum.

 

Fwiw that last post of yours sways me further towards the idea you may be Town.

 

@Nolder

[Cass]

Csarmi (7) Cass Wish Kaylee Alanna Lenlo Zander Pizza

 

Wish:

Mentions Csarmi and Pral are back in thread. In her next reads list says Csarmi "pretty much null and all fluff"

Complains about the inactives, mentioning Csarmi, says out of Pral, CS, and Nolder that Nolder looks the best and Csarmi is in her list of lynch candidates with Pral, Lenlo, Nolder, Kaylee. Her next reads list has Csarmi at the bottom of the list. This is still before Pizza's case and switch which was on page 83. Mentions that she wants Csarmi to show up and play, he's still in her WTL. "I'd like to give Kaylee and Csarmi more time" This is after the Cass vote. She actually follows this up with voting Pral. Here she asks Cass for more information on Csarmi which Cass responded to, you can see it linked in Cass's Csarmi ISO. She does like that Csarmi is making an effort to catch up.

 

Here she starts digging into Kaylee and actually takes a swipe at him

 

There's a lot of mentions of Csarmi on this next page, but this is post Kaylee case and Wish is digging into Kaylee's games to see if Pizza's case has merit. I'll c/p some comments, but it's all there in her ISO, as well on page 7:

   "I'm less willing to lynch Kaylee still want a csarmi, Pralaya, Nolder lynch. Nolder is putting in more work than either Pralaya/csarmi, so take it in csarmi>Pralaya>Nolder order."

   "So you think he [csarmi] set her [kaylee] up? Read her as town and then proceeded to give you info to condemn her because of her change of meta?"

   "His claiming and then leaving is also not a good look."

   "Don't think the timing is weird. Shad did ask him to claim. And iirc, thread kinda pressured him to full-claim. Agree with Pizza's point on csarmi setting Kaylee up"

 

Anddd she just keeps pushing for his lynch so I'm not going to quote everything. Her vote here

 

UH, LAINEY

 

HELP

 

My dark green is fighting with another one of my light greens

 

I want to vote csarmi, but I'm really tempted to vote Zander because he has been tunneling me all game, even though I found his other behavior townie.

 

what are your thoughts?

This is 100% Lenny, there's no way she's mafia.

 

Link!!! She doesn't try to push onto Zander even with Pizza going at him on thread. This was a perfect opportunity and she didn't take it.

 

Csarmi on Wish:

".and yes. Penny. Lenny. Zanny."

"I cant tell Wish and Cel3ste apart."

 

And that's it. He responds to Wish asking about Csarmi setting Kaylee up but that was mainly in response to Pizza. No mentions of Wish's alignment whatsoever.

 

Conclusion: Wish is town. No doubts.

 

LaineGOAT. Pretty close to putting both these girls into town core and locking them clear 

 

I can't agree more with Laine on that post sounding just like Lenny and I want this Lenny to be Town.  

 

Her not pushing Zander is a good look - unless Zander flips scum and then I'll have to fight some tinfoil, but other than that I think I'm ready to let it go.

 

 

Hello!

 

I'm going to post Kaylee notes from the games that csarmi has linked. 

 

A tl;dr before: Pizza may be right. 

 

In terms of who I'd like to see more content from: csarmi and Pralaya. 

 

csarmi, stop being helpful to other people and do your own work.

 

Pralaya, appreciate the catch up, but interact with people in thread as well.

 

 

 

This snipe is also classic Lenny. She's blunt and matter of fact and hunting Csarmi/Pral and there's nothing else to it. I don't feel like she has a hidden agenda, and those two were/are also my top two scum. 

 

I've found myself agreeing with way too much of her thought process this game for me to call her wolf. I haven't ISO'd her but what I have read of her in the thread gives me the impression that she's working hard to hunt and to be up front and honest. I feel like ScumLenny hunts but doesn't necessarily work as hard to explain where her head is at. This is just a guess btw, I've never seen her scum.

 

I'm willing to trust her read of Penny because I know she is that good and I had the exact same impression at the same time early on D1 until Penny reacted badly under pressure, which I've never seen. Their interaction may seem strange to outsiders, but I've seen enough Lenny-Penny conversations outside of mafia which are just as strange - they talk in half sentences and just get each other in real life. They've also played a lot of mafia together and I don't doubt that they'd have a good handle on each other this game as Town. Either they're both scum (seems unlikely), or until I ISO and something glaring other than this relationship stands out, Wish is Town for me.

[Shad_]

Csarmi zander cass scum team?

 

Or csarmi zander Pral

 

Csarmi Turin Zander

 

Idk

Our heads. They are in the same place.

 

But I don't think Turin as scum is a realistic concern anymore. The character made sense for the claim. Best alternative option for doc imo was Ysera. Ysera was a scum fake claim. He's probably legit.

[Shad_]

Tonight I engage the Zander.ISO /deepbreath

[Cass]

 

I read you town on approach and stress level Cass. I think you wolfing while Cory h3lping you would be hard. Not finding the right words sorry. You would wanna prove more and be somewhat froz3n? Is that the right wording?

I think this is Csarmi trying to shade cass. Looking into his post at the moment.

 

 

 

Actually I will finish looking at Csarmi's ISO when I wake up.

 

 

 

Celeste, how do you feel about wish aorn?

I should be asleep now but one last post  

 

The way she analyzed and never actually stopped scum hunting while defending herself is very town like for Wish. I feel even better than before about my read on her.

 

 

These three posts made me go:

              

 

Which is honestly how I've been feeling about Penny since her early reaction. I still think she's Town. I'm hoping she's Town on the right track, because then it cements that we're learning how to read each other, and I like the idea that someone can effectively read me Town.

 

But then I wonder. Chance that she's buddying me. 

 

I haven't ISO'd her either and without being 100% across the game/actually knowing her better, I'm not willing to say she's not a wolf. But my first impression of her was that she was Town, playing the same as the last game we recently finished. 

 

I've tinfoiled on Penny before for coming across randomly when Town and it ended really bad (both of us dead early). I'm not going to push her much here for little inconsistencies that may be a misunderstanding. She's a good player who gets herself into trouble as Town ( :P ). If anyone's going to nail a Scum Penny here, it's Lenny. I'm going to continue to sheep her read while there are others lower in the PoE.

 

 

This was a good question by Shad.

 

The answer from Celeste is easily Penny Town from what I've seen. It reads direct and honest.

 

I want to ISO and see how much PennyCeleste has been defending/agreeing with WishLenny throughout the game off her own bat.

 

I'd be interested in Lenny's take on Penny's response and overall play to see if there's a chance it comes from Penny scum.

 

@Lenny - what do you think?

[Cass]

 

Csarmi zander cass scum team?

 

Or csarmi zander Pral

 

Csarmi Turin Zander

 

Idk

Our heads. They are in the same place.

 

But I don't think Turin as scum is a realistic concern anymore. The character made sense for the claim. Best alternative option for doc imo was Ysera. Ysera was a scum fake claim. He's probably legit.

 

 

Imo

 

Csarmi, Pral, Zander 

 

or

 

Csarmi, Pral, X

 

 

I am not X.

[Shad_]

Have you commented on what bothers you about Pral?

 

You've been pretty low on my radar so I don't remember.

[Zander?]

Shad should I ISO Nolder of Lenlo iyo?

[Zander?]

......or Cass......????!?!!?!?!?!?