What happens to those who were "turned" and other issues not addressed in the Companion

[Tud]

MB, I think If they did survive, the Randlanders could always borrow some of the exotics from the Seanchen and clear them out...That is how the blight became clear in Seanchen after all.

 

I was wondering what would happen when the blight clears and Randland and the Seanchen mpire come to sahre a northern border, but then i realized that the polar ice pack would still seperate them. So much for a full scale border conflict.

 

Regarding the compulsion issue, I think that it was indicated somehwere that they were still under compulsion after Verin's death. And you're right, Perrin managed to wrench himself away from Lanfears control enough to kill her , but he still felt the loss after she died.

[Sabio]

Like Morgase, she struggled against the compulsion but even after still had  feelings for Rhavin. 

[Tud]

Sabio,

 

Thanks for reminding me..I knew someone else had had similar thoughts, but I couldn't bring who it was to mind. She even had a monologue on the subject, just like perrin, but more detailed.

[jack of shadows]

tud,

regarding the pipe thing,

during rand's battle with the dark one,both of them created several alternate realities:

"the threads of possibility resisted rand as he woved them together into the world he

imagined.he forced the threads to open the reality he demanded,and finally they obeyed.'

in my opinion,during his long battle with the dark one,rand learned how to manipulate

the pattern's threads and change reality(he probably changed the outcome of lan's

dual with demandred)and later,he used the same method to light his pipe.

 

as a side note,when rand created his alternate world without the dark one we got this:

"the blight had vanished upon the dark one's death,and the shadowspawn had fallen dead 

immediately as if the dark one been linked to them all..."

but rand didn't kill the dark one...

[Tud]

Jack..good points. However, I don't think  it was indicated that he lit the pipe with a conscious thought. Frankly, I don't think Rand changed the world when he re-sealed the bore (like Lan's battle since that occurred before the final confrontation with the DO and if he could do that wouldn't he have also changed Egwene's fate or Hurin's? However, I tend to agree with you that he seems to have changed himself.

 

As for the blight creatures, while it's true that he didn't kill the DO, he did seal him away which is pretty much the same thing, so if the creatures required the link to survive, they're toast..I think.

 

tud

[mb]

there is at least 1 difference between sealed away and killed::  the possibility of return with sealed away.

and perhaps another difference::  a possibility of a still existent link (with sealed away); if such a link ever existed and if such a link could be maintained.

[jack of shadows]

@tud,

"i don't think rand changed the world when he re-sealed the bore..."

true,but beside my point,during the last stages of his battle with the dark one rand

did learn to alter reality,he did it by taking existing threads and rerouting them,that's

how he was able(post last battle) to light his pipe,he altered reality the same way 

dream walkers manipulate tel'aran'rhiod.

 

"if he could do that wouldn't he have also changed egwene's fate or hurin's?"

i asked myself the same thing probably a hundred times,and to be honest,i don't have

a satisfactory explanation to your question but i do know that lan was bonded to nynaeve

(and rand probably knew it too),she was also an indispensable part in rand's plan to

trap moridin,the last thing rand needed was a grief striken nynaeve going berserk 

inside the pit of doom and destroying his trap.

[Tud]

Jack, I'm not disputing the point that he may have learned to alter reality as Dreamwalkers do, I just don't think he made a conscious effort to do so. Still, your idea does address the issue of why his lighting the pipe seems so similar  to what the Dreamwalkers. Also, regarding changing lan's fate...my only quibble is that he couldn't know what Lan's fate was going to be during the fight and afterwards, wasn't it  Mat, Narishma and the borderlanders who made sure he survived? I guess, what i'm saying is that I'm just not sure when Rand would have altered Lan's fate. Was Nyneave even aware of  lan's duel until it was over?

 

MB: Regarding the difference between being killed and being sealed away from the world for thousands of years, I'll agree that there is a difference that one is permenant and the other temporary (even if temporary is a very, very long time), but the affect on those linked would have still been the same. If they required the link to survive, then any severing of the link that isn't very short term would be fatal.

 

As for the idea that there still might be a link, I can't answer that directly except to note that before the bore was created in the AOL, none of creatures of the blight existed  or had done so in such a long time that it was implied that no one  remembered them. Furthermore, I think there was mention of the fact that Aginor had created them during the period of time leading up to the War of The Shadow.

[DemandredFO]

Actually some of the blight could've adapted themselves to the blight so they wouldn't die.

Maybe Rand didn't bring Egwene or Hurin back because that would have made a mess. Lighting a pipe is one thing, bringing the dead back is quite large change.

[mb]

Rand's plan I take was to deal with the Dark One; not to "trap Moridin".

not sure if Rand found out about the Warder bond between Nynaeve & Lan.  But Rand did know that they were married.

from what I recall, bond holders seem to behave better than Warders when the other (of the Warder bond) dies.

 

the scene tells that Rand touched 2 bodies.  from that I take 2 characters were resurrected.  the book did not tell the identity of the other.

[Mr Ares]

Regarding the ways, I believe that  both of my points are  valid.. Machin shin left the ways with Padain Fain and was destroyed along with him at Shayol Ghol (If you don't think so, go back and read that section of MOL..There isn't anything else in WOT that does what that mist does and which would involve Padain Fain. The only other candiate for the mist was destroyed along with  Shador Logoth)  As for the taint on the ways, what I was trying to say was that the taint  wasn't there originally becuase if it had been no one could have ever used the ways w/o dying. The taint grew gradually and became Machin Shin. Assuming Machin shin was destroyed during the last battle that  should result in the ways being free of the taint. Worn and chewed up by thousands of years dealing with the taint, but clean nonetheless.

Shaisam was something Fain grew into. It is neither Mashadar nor Machin Shin (although it grew from the same root as Mashadar). As for the taint, as was stated in the books, the Ways were made with tainted saidin. Therefore the taint was always there, it simply took time to corrupt the Ways enough for Machin Shin to arise.

[Tud]

Mr Ares, I suggest you go back and re-read that portion of MOL entitled "Tendrils of Mist", pages 869, 878 and 881.  On those pages it is specifically stated that the mist is Mashadar. Based on my readings, Shaisam is Mashadar's name for itself and  Padan Fain is identified as it's host for lack of a better name.  You may advance the arguement that both Perrin and Mat made a mistake and misindetifeid shaisam as Mashadar, but until I hear that affirmed from Mr. Sanderson. Mr. Jordan or Mr. Jordan's Widow, I'll choose to believe otherwise.

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, I suggest you go back and re-read that portion of MOL entitled "Tendrils of Mist", pages 869, 878 and 881.  On those pages it is specifically stated that the mist is Mashadar. Based on my readings, Shaisam is Mashadar's name for itself and  Padan Fain is identified as it's host for lack of a better name.  You may advance the arguement that both Perrin and Mat made a mistake and misindetifeid shaisam as Mashadar, but until I hear that affirmed from Mr. Sanderson. Mr. Jordan or Mr. Jordan's Widow, I'll choose to believe otherwise.

So why would I bother going back and re-reading? It is specifically stated by people who don't know. Mashadar was in Shadar Logoth, it was destroyed. Fain survived, with a portion of SL's power. That took over and killed Fain. The result was something which resembles Mashadar, and so might well be called such. But just because a son resembles a father doesn't mean they are the same thing.

[jack of shadows]

@mb,

"rand's plan i take was to deal with the dark one,not to trap moridin".

yes and no,it's the difference between strategy and tactics,i.e.,tactics are the actual means used 

to gain an objective,while strategy is the overall campaign plan.

rand's overall campaign plan was to kill/seal the dark one,now,let me review rand's tactics:

 

1.from sajius book commentary on the dragon:"he shall hold a blade of light in his hands,and the

three shall be one".

 

2.when rand returned from dragonmount he said to min:"callandor,it plays a part in this.you have to

find out how.i cannot seal the bore the way i tried last time.i'm missing something,something vital."

 

3.during a conversation between rand and moiraine,he reveals(to us):"callandor final secret lay bare

to him now.it was a trap,and a clever one,for this weapon was a sa'angreal not for just the one power,

but for the true power as well".

 

4.a day before rand entered the pit of doom he asked nynaeve:"you have tried as i instructed?" "time

and time again",nynaeve said,"there's no way around the flaw rand.you cannot use callandor.it will be

too dangerous".

 

5.when moridin scooped callandor up off the floor,rand reveals(to us)"this was the most dangerous part

of the plan.min had figured it out."

 

6.the last piece of information:"they(nynaeve and moiraine)took control of him.callandor was flawed.any

man using it could be forced to link with women,to be placed in their control.a trap...and one he used on moridin."

 

i have no idea how much nynaeve and moiraine knew about rand's plan to trap moridin,but everything that

happened to him during the last stage of his duel with rand was premeditated,so yes,rand's plan was to trap

moridin first,and use the three powers to kill/seal the dark one.

[Sabio]

Ohh god Ares let not start the is Fain dead and  if Shaisam is just a new name or enitrely new being.   I do agree Mashadar was the fog, so if anything  one could argue the fog  around Fain at the last battle was  Mashadar.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It's merely a matter of semantics. Mat and Perrin correctly identified the mist as being the same mist of Mashadar.

 

However, Mashadar was only a part of Shaisam. From the Shaisam PoV: 

 

 

 

Chapter 45: Tendrils of Mist

 

No living thing could withstand his mist. Once, it had been a mindless thing. It had not been him. But it had been trapped with him, inside of a seed carried away, and that death - that wonderful death - had been given fertile ground in the flesh of a man.

 

The three intertwined within him. Mist. Man. Master. That wonderful dagger - his physical form carried it now - had grown something delightful and new and ancient all at once.

 

 

From Shaisam itself, Mashadar was merely a part of it.

 

Mashadar was mindless, as Shaisam states. As it also states, Shaisam is something new - something different from Mashadar and Shadar Logoth, but ancient (likely from ages past in the turning.)

 

As to the fate of Lan, it is somewhat different to Egwene or Hurin etc.. Rand had not accepted his true role when they had died, nor did he understand enough to touch the world as he did afterwards. We have evidence that Rand could indeed touch the world in the same way as the Dark One when the Dark One speaks in Mat's mind, Rand also speaks, and it is heard throughout the battlefield. 

 

The biggest clue that Rand aided in keeping Lan alive is this passage: 

 

 

Chapter 39: Those Who Fight

 

I CAN STILL KILL, the Dark One bellowed. i CAN STILL TAKE THEM ALL! I AM LORD OF THE GRAVE. THE BATTLE LORD, HE IS MINE. ALL ARE MINE EVENTUALLY.

 

Rand stepped forward, hand stretched out. In his palm sat the world, and upon that world a continent, and upon that continent a battlefield, and upon that battlefield two bodies on the ground.

***

Rand stood above the Pattern and looked down at the fallen men in a land where hope seemed to have died. "You have not been watching closely enough. About one thing, you are wrong. So very wrong."


So very wrong, Shai'tan, Rand's voice whispered in Mat's mind. It could be heard distinctly by everyone on the battlefield. 

That one you have tried to kill many times, Rand said, that one who lost his kingdom, that one from whom you took everything...

Lurching, bloodied from the sword strike to his side, the last King of the Malkieri stumbled to his feet. Lan thrust his hand into the air, holding by its hair the head of Demandred, general of the Shadow's armies.
 

 

I don't think Rand actually brought him back from the dead per-se, but definitely gave him strength to survive until Narishma got to him. 

[Yamezt]

I know it isn't what the OP asked, but I havea always wondered if stilling someone who has been turned would cure them since things like the 3 oaths, the warder-bond (including its associated grief) cease when someone is stilled. Though in the case of the grief via the warder bond it does return when healed (Siuan), but not the 3 oaths.

 

Anyway, random thoughts.

[mb]

if forced state is connected to person's ability to channel (which it seems to be), the person would probably no longer be forced when he/she becomes severed or burned out.

though there might be a few willing to attempt either.

[Tud]

Barid, I tend to agree with your take on mashadar. I've always felt that Mash was something like one of the fungai you encounter in the wood. The ones that are quite vast, covering acres, yet are still one organism. you can cut part of it away or even kill off 99% and not kill the organism. It just re-grows. As for those parts taaken away, they are still part of the fungus . Essentially, they form colonies of the same organism. The mist that Shasiam brought to Shayol Ghul was the survivng part of Mashadar mixed together with PadainFain and something else. The clue to this is the fact that Mat, who had been infected with mashadar, was now immune.

 

As for whether  Rand was able to change people's fates, I also agree with you and Jack on this matter. It does seem like there is a strong hint that at least Lan's fate is somewhat altered.

 

Mr. Tham, regarding the issue of what affect stilling would have on a "Turned" person, it seems to me that there would be none beyond the fact that the person wouldn't be able to use Saidar/Saidin. Turning is, after all, a form of compulsion and that isn't even resolved by the death of the person who laid the the compulsion. On the other hand, it would make removing the compulsion easier.since the victim would be more tracable. On, the other hand, since stilling does have the afect of altering a victim's physiology, you might be right. Certainly, something so profound, would have some affect.  tud

[Tud]

MB, you might be correct as to the affect, but now that it is known that "stilling" can be healed in such a way that the person can be restored to full strength, i'm betting the reluctance will be far less.

 

I wonder  how long it's going to be before someone makes the connection that using Saidar to heal a woman has been stilled or vice versa will restore the victim to full strength. tud

[Sabio]

The ability to channel is what make's one vulnerable to being forced to the shadow.  Lanfear mentioned to Perrin stilling would protect them from being forced, but nothing about if stilling after the fact would cure it.  My guess is once you have been turned, stilling wouldn't matter since it's been done.  Since it's never  mentioned the ability to channel is needed to keep the person turned, only that it's being able to channel gives you the vulnerability.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It's a very good question. Ultimately though, we don't know enough about the process and what the Turning does to a person (beyond making them 'evil'). 

 

We also don't know how it makes them evil. 

 

Some have suggested that 13 Nym and 13 channelers could do the reverse. 

 

Personally, I don't think so, I think only the Shadow would come up with a method of forcing someone's will. There is also the fact the True Power is involved (in the creation of Myrddraal). 

 

It could be possible if the Turning process is like the Taint - using the Conduit to the OP in a person to 'infect' them. If the channel is severed, then it might be possible, like it is with the Oaths etc.. that the effects are nullified. 

 

If it is something more primal, an Androl's thoughts on it hit the mark in that the Shadow 'consumes' the person, it might be impossible. LIke Machin Shin consuming the souls of its victims. Lanfear's comments to Perrin suggest that this is not the case, and they aren't 'replaced' with shadow, but controlled against their will. 

 

Personally, I equate it to the same thing as the Taint more or less. The effects would still be there after it is gone. 

 

In the same vein, I think Perrin's attempt to un-turn the red-veil was a hint that it can indeed be cured. He felt the DO's presences like a force in the man's mind but was not powerful enough to dispel it. 

 

I'd think that with the correct method, it can be healed, like Nynaeve healed madness, by removing the DO's touch from the mind's of the Asha'man. 

 

I suspect with the DO sealed away properly, if Perrin tried again, he would find less resistance than he did with the Aiel. 

[Sabio]

One main reason I don't think the OP is used to turn them is Taim was having trouble with the converting.  So it seems like a if  a man tries to turn a man it's more difficult type of thing.  So if using the OP it wouldn't matter what the sex of the person doing the turning was.  That's just my guess. 

The Myrddraal are used as sort of a filter it says in the BWB.  So my guess is you cast a weave through them and the weave picks up 'the shadow" and into the target.  So my guess is it' some evil from the Myrddraal that is picked up in the weave, since it seems all shadowspawn have a connection to the DO.  

[jack of shadows]

@barid,

"some have suggested that 13 nym and 13 channelers could do the reverse.

personally,i don't think so..."

well you could always use a different combo to achieve the desired results,

i.e.,13(male) channelers and 13 nyns(nynaeves) :rolleyes: (grinning evilly).

[mb]

13 male channelers & 13 Nynaeve-strength channelers probably would not work if 13 channelers & 13 nym do not.

 

the characters with Legends Age memories might know at least one method that could work.  and/or current Age channelers might figure out a method after experimentation.