World's End Mafia - town wins comprehensively

[Askthepizzaguy]

This is going to be a shorter visit than per usual but I'll see what I can get done.

 

I can point to the stuff I saw on Shad and Tina, that should be the best use of my remaining time, but I do have other games and RL commitments.

 

I'll be back after I leave probably several hours later, not sure of the number.

 

If people have anything they want to ask that doesn't involve research, I can answer that before I go.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza is still my top scum read. And Sooh is in my null-scum list. I can't help but feel like they could possibly be scum together.

 

Personally it feels like Sooh jumped at defending herself, and Pizza, at the opportunity that arose from Pizza's arguments.

 

 

 

I'm looking forward to see others opinion's on page 62-63.

 

Reverse the order and you might be closer to home.

[Sooh]

 

I believe this is genuine.

 

Your scum read on me should be migrating, then. Winter is coming, and all that.

 

And this post didn't tell you that? Plus the next one?

 

I mentioned tone in my analysis of Pizza, and it makes sense now if the purpose of those posts was to give a reaction check and possibly rustle Lenlo. That makes the posts forced and that was the tone I was reading. 

 

In my head at least this says that you're moving out of my orange zone and towards the green, but I guess I need to spell it out anyway.

[Sooh]

 

Pizza is still my top scum read. And Sooh is in my null-scum list. I can't help but feel like they could possibly be scum together.

 

Personally it feels like Sooh jumped at defending herself, and Pizza, at the opportunity that arose from Pizza's arguments.

 

 

 

I'm looking forward to see others opinion's on page 62-63.

 

Reverse the order and you might be closer to home.

 

You think I'm scum then I take it?

[Nolder]

 

@pizza   are you gonna tell me that all that len back and forth was a test?

Yeah.

 

For an example of me doing that exact behavior before as town, I can go back to the most recent game where I did it as town. Unfortunately, the last time I can recall that I had someone who actually stood toe to toe with me in the thread for a long while when I was actually pushing them, was all the way back in game 3, where I pushed DGZ Confuse Rei, who I hammered in real time because I didn't believe he was a townie. The last time I did it as scum is much more recently, when I pushed imabusinessman a lot in real time, very late into the game, when I was almost universally town-read and he was scum-read by half the game, and that game employed health, not outright lynches, so I was extremely safe from immediate reprisals. I also was far more patient with him for many rounds of play, where he was attacking a lot of townies and generally ticking off the entire thread. It's easier to let a townie like that implode than to actually tangle with him.

 

I don't get a lot of opportunities to press a suspect in real time, even though I ask a lot, and insist they not dip out in the middle of it. The reason being, most scumbags avoid it. And it's easy to avoid it, all you have to do is post more slowly.

 

I can't make someone post.

 

This is different from real life where you can actually physically confront someone, and sort of corner them and ask them questions in real time and hammer them verbally. There's an exit door that you can use at any time.

 

That is why generally speaking, a wolf will not sit there and battle with someone in real time. If they are in the thread with that person who is accusing them at the same time, they don't have to generate 100 posts of debate with their accuser.

 

It's easy to walk away, very easy. And it's easy to have a debate with them and then walk away and have it look completely normal.

 

There's no purpose whatsoever in doing what Lenlo did, as scum. To park and camp in the thread with me.

 

Why does a townie do that? Because they're under the impression they can actually corner and hammer a scumbag, and that said scumbag will crack under the pressure.

 

Even I have that instinct and I can't think of a time I've actually hammered a scumbag in real time and not watched them walk away or simply not engage me as much as I want to engage them. Meaning slower posts than mine.

 

Lenlo generated those posts fast. Now, I've seen scumbags try to confuse matters with their arguments, and post fast. But, on the same principle that guides my scum play, you don't actually want to dominate the thoughts of every player on day one.

 

Which means when the spat is over, you generally excuse yourself, especially if you've been at it for a long amount of real time.

 

That is the point where if I remember back, I can't remember any scums doing Lenlo's behavior.

 

As such, Lenlo would be the first in eight years.

 

Possible?

 

yes, because you can tell from Lenlo's approach to the game that he's tenacious and not really afraid of anyone. So it would be possible for him to be the first.

 

But I've played a lot of people with a lot of different personalities.

 

The ones that post a LOT like Zander, and cory, even when they're a wolf, generally don't exhibit the same kind of pattern that Lenlo did during that engagement.

 

Because all people really notice is the number of posts and the content. They generally don't look at the timestamps.

 

Time is very important.

 

It's why BFG's posts in the previous game were a tell, to me, it was the speed at which they came, and the time of the round in which they came, a specific pattern I had rarely if ever seen from a townie. The posts themselves and the content therein are reasonable enough, that's why she wasn't universally scum read for them. But when they came is just as important as what they came with, and that's something I notice, which other people aren't paying attention to.

 

It's not always important, rarely is it a major factor. But sometimes they're more telling than anything else that happened all day.

 

See Shad this is a lot of words but just because of the spacing it's so much easier to read. At least IMO.

It's when everything gets condensed that it just becomes a huge chore not only for the mind but also the eye.

[Guest]

 

 

Pizza is still my top scum read. And Sooh is in my null-scum list. I can't help but feel like they could possibly be scum together.

 

Personally it feels like Sooh jumped at defending herself, and Pizza, at the opportunity that arose from Pizza's arguments.

 

 

 

I'm looking forward to see others opinion's on page 62-63.

Reverse the order and you might be closer to home.

A reverse of my list is still a complete jumble of yours. I see what you're getting at though.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I generally think Lenlo is town and find Pizza's push scummy in a vacuum, but scum!Pizza would be pretty much throwing the game at this point if Lenlo's town, and I expect he's farsighted enough to not get caught up in an argument that will secure his death on N1.  Meh.

 

Shad-

 

I would try to be a deep wolf this game, not brawl with Lenlo who, if I'm scum, I know is a townie, and I know he will shoot me.

 

If I knew all of that in advance, I wouldn't have essentially outright guaranteed i die before day two, while having piled so many hours into reads I would know are bullshit that no one will look at after they are immediately futile to confuse anyone with.

 

What's the point of spending hours and hours and hours on this game on something that will mean nothing as quickly as possible?

 

Why did I meticulously craft fake notes which are utterly useless because I also wanted to make myself Lenlo's top target and will fool nobody now?

 

Why Pizzaguy isn't a wolf this game. The sad part is, this is so basic and so obviously true that I should be 100% clear on everyone's scum list, and that's not what's going to happen next.

haha, I guess I should feel better that you pointed this out before I did.

 

Do we have any confirmation on whether scum get night kills?

 

Shad lets talk about something else before I call it a night, Who is your top town and scum read and why?

You're my top town and I think it's shining more here than D1 of NBC because you haven't shown that level of conviction on a single target that you fake so well. I'm kind of torn on Pizza for the reasons I just gave, leery of Tina and Nolder's lack of many thoughts since they've actually read up in the game, would like to see what happens after the Christmas bustle fades before I pass much judgment because god knows I've barely been able to keep up with this game and I'm a lot more dedicated to doing so than most players.

 

Zander

Dice

Lenlo

BLomBessie

Cory

Sooh

BFG

AskThePizzaGuy

Nikon

Tina

Nolder

 

glgl, I'm actually up to current content and should be able to maintain that pending this flu hitting me like a truck again.

Not every villager wants to solve the game today, in the same sort of way that I hate wasting time.

 

So I am not holding Shad to some standard that many villagers won't meet.

 

If you're a wolf today you want to give the appearance of solving but without making yourself likely to be the d1 lynch, or the n1 kill.

 

Shad is making friendly happy faces at a lot of people and not pushing his suspects very hard.

 

This is just a snippet. He's very reasonable and not making waves.

 

Zander wants a dead scum TODAY, he's not waiting until tomorrow.

 

Zander is not even a little bit afraid of my reprisal should I die today.

 

Lenlo understood that I'd probably shoot him if he told me to screw off and I died, didn't stop him.

 

There are two lynches in a row to avoid. If you want a dead scum today, you want to look for the players who are trying to avoid BOTH of them.

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

 

Pizza is still my top scum read. And Sooh is in my null-scum list. I can't help but feel like they could possibly be scum together.

 

Personally it feels like Sooh jumped at defending herself, and Pizza, at the opportunity that arose from Pizza's arguments.

 

 

 

I'm looking forward to see others opinion's on page 62-63.

 

Reverse the order and you might be closer to home.

 

You think I'm scum then I take it?

 

I think it's possible.

 

However, I have scum-read you as town and I'm town in a long game, and I've given you a ton of rope when you were a wolf when I was town in another.

 

I need to not make a snap judgment of you.

 

If I can clear one of Shad or Tina, you then fall inside my top 2 scums. If either of them are a townie, that means pressure on you comes.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The above exchange with Sooh looks like we're wolf/wolf, for those tinfoiling that.

 

;)

 

It's not the case. Just so you know.

[Sooh]

*snip*

I think it's possible.

 

However, I have scum-read you as town and I'm town in a long game, and I've given you a ton of rope when you were a wolf when I was town in another.

 

I need to not make a snap judgment of you.

 

If I can clear one of Shad or Tina, you then fall inside my top 2 scums. If either of them are a townie, that means pressure on you comes.

 

That's fine. I was just realizing that you're more likely to be town, so I was looking forward to finally having a town game together, but whatever happens happens. 

[Askthepizzaguy]

Good morning! I´m here and I will put a little more time into the game this morning. I think I want to do an iso on a few people. I have read the whole thread but that doesn´t mean that I remember much. I started to take notes but that fell after page 15. lol 

 

Here are my initial thoughts:

 

First - who is voting who? It feels like there are few people voting and those who did unvoted. 

 

I couldn´t read everything in the back and forth between Lenlo and Pizza but I think I got the major parts (because they were stated again and again and again...) First to Lenlo - I did not agree with Pizza. I was the second vote on your train, before Pizza. Second - my thoughts about it now:

 

* my reason for voting Lenlo was that it felt like he was trying to accuse Dice without actually doing it. Like he didn´t dare to vote him but still wanted to make him look scummy. Someone asked me (Shad? Zander?) why that would make him mafia. I have seen that many time, where mafia don´t want to take responsibility for leading someones lynch or being afraid of definite statements. 

 

I think this was Pizza´s first reason for voting Lenlo too and in that we agree(d). But I didn´t like the way he went after Lenlo and said that everything Lenlo said was scummy. He was obviously tunnelling Lenlo. I´m not sure what I feel about his unvote because I don´t think I really understand the reason for it. Need to read it again.

 

I liked Lenlo´s post #812 and now I need to figure out if I want to unvote him or not. I´ll see as I re-read some stuff. 

 

 

Even though I have a problem with Zander´s amount of posting I think he looks really good. 

 

Cory - don´t know but haven´t seen anything scummy. I kind of liked some of his posts toward Pizza but they haven´t really been about this game but more a meta-talk about how to approach mafia. I see that he posted a new list while I´m writing this so I will check it out.

 

BFG - she is asking a lot of questions, which she does as both alignments. She posts a lot, which is a good sign since I know that she has been afraid of posting too much as mafia earlier. (This is from at least half a year ago so I don´t know how it is now.) I still don´t think I have seen any results of the answers she has been given. Yesterday she just ended with "I´ll wait and see what Tina says when she comes back". (Which seems to be built on Cory´s suspicioun of me.) Well, now I´m back so I hope that I could get some clear statements about everyone. 

 

Nikon - isn´t here.

 

Shad - he posted a lot but he got mixed up with Zander-Lenlo-Pizza in my head so I don´t really remember his thoughts.

 

Nolder - Is laying low. Answers when questioned. Nothing so far.

 

Besie - I see that many of you think she is town but I haven´t payed attention to her so far (sorry Besie). Will need to iso.

 

Sooh - didn´t get good vibes from her earlier. I think it was about Lenlo. She had a bad feeling about Lenlo, then wanted to clear him, then liked what I and other said about him and then... I don´t know what she has written after that. Need to iso as well.

 

Who did I forget? 

 

That's the very first thought on my mind whenever I am scum and come into a game thread after being away.

 

Because my priority then is to base my actions in the coming posts on the temperature of the thread, and also, make sure I'm not hard defending a scumbag who is about to die, and see who is an easy townie to lynch.

 

That thought is less likely to come from a townie. It will happen but not as often as it will from a scumbag.

 

That brainwave alone should push Tina to the top of a lot of people's suspect lists.

 

[BFG]

So what's the difference between me and Shad?

[Askthepizzaguy]

So what's the difference between me and Shad?

 

What do you mean? There are tons of differences. Do you mean why is something you did similar to Shad, but you're not scum and he is?

[Nolder]

So what's the difference between me and Shad?

You're more likely to have seen this movie than he is.

[BFG]

 

So what's the difference between me and Shad?

 

What do you mean? There are tons of differences. Do you mean why is something you did similar to Shad, but you're not scum and he is?

 

Pretty sure Nolder and Tina(?) think I'm not making waves (and at this point I can't really argue that), so if Shad's not making waves and mafia, why do you have me as townish?

[BFG]

 

So what's the difference between me and Shad?

You're more likely to have seen this movie than he is.

 

Genuine laugh

 

(we watched it a few weeks ago actually, my least favourite of the Cornetto trilogy, but still fun)

[Zander?]

Pizza.......

[Nolder]

 

 

So what's the difference between me and Shad?

You're more likely to have seen this movie than he is.

 

Genuine laugh

 

(we watched it a few weeks ago actually, my least favourite of the Cornetto trilogy, but still fun)

 

This is a trilogy? Whaaa???

[Askthepizzaguy]

Besie:

 

She seems to be going with the flow* a lot and a lot of her posts are not game related. She asks questions but don´t do anything with the answers. I have not played with her before so I can´t judge her from previous games so I don´t know why Zander is saying she is town. 

 

* many have had the same oppinion so it´s hard to say that this is purely negative. I have expressed some of the same thoughts.

 

Result: null - scummy

 

 

BFG:

 

She is posting a lot, asking a lot of good questions. Still, I don´t know what she thinks about people. She posted a list where she was uncertain of most people, I don´t know why she posted that list at all. 

 

Result: depends on what she will contribute with next.

 

Nolder:

 

A big ?.  He is saying that he don´t want to say much during D1 so it´s hard to say anything about him. 

 

Result: null 

 

So of these people I guess I find Sooh  most scummy. BFG is in an category of her own. I will take a new look at Lenlo (and others) later.

 

Right now unvote.

 

Wether or not I decide to change my mind or not about Lenlo, my vote isn´t doing any good right now. 

 

Those that I won´t take another look at are Dice and Cory. Dice because I have not seen anything yet to change my town read on him and Cory because I know I won´t get any wiser by that.

 

Spacing and vote tag omitted.

 

I generally find the hard unvote scummy.

 

I know I did it myself this game and it's pretty rare that I just unvote and then not follow it up with my next suspect. I know my reasons for doing so.

 

I also iirc remember Dice doing the same thing. But, that's mitigated a lot by the fact that he looked genuine to me for a lot of the early day one. It also might be less rare for him, I'm not sure. I know he parked his vote before but that's not a large enough sample size.

 

It's fine if you don't know what your next move is going to be, and perhaps it might be more important to unvote and not revote in a game with hybrid hammer.

 

That said, Tina has stated several persons she is questionable on and isn't using the vote to push them.

 

And she hasn't even changed her mind on Lenlo, but she's still unvoting him. That makes no sense.

 

Why is her vote "not doing any good" if she still thinks Lenlo is scummy? That's never a townie's brainwave.

 

There's a VERY specific reason why a townie unvotes a suspect- because they now look townie, or because there's someone else who needs to be lynched now, and your vote is required to make that happen.

 

Tina has no such reason.

[Askthepizzaguy]

 

 

So what's the difference between me and Shad?

 

What do you mean? There are tons of differences. Do you mean why is something you did similar to Shad, but you're not scum and he is?

 

Pretty sure Nolder and Tina(?) think I'm not making waves (and at this point I can't really argue that), so if Shad's not making waves and mafia, why do you have me as townish?

 

 

That doesn't really follow.

 

That might follow if I wanted to mislynch you, because it's certainly specious. Sounds logical but isn't.

 

You are giving off indicators to me that make me think you're a townie, Shad is not. Shad then doing a behavior which looks scummy to me, tilts things against him.

 

I began town-reading you a long while ago, for some posts which I named. By your own admission in previous games, you tend to vote later.

 

Your behavior in this specific instance is more null, and you have posts I think are townie.

 

That's why generic, specious, and inconsistency-based things don't fly with me when I'm making a case. A lot of things LOOK like a lot of other things, and can be used easily by a scumbag who wants to look like their townie-selves. They'll even use the same tells and arguments they did when they're a townie, if they can get those tells to match up inappropriately in another circumstance on another person.

 

Shad feels differently from the previous game in the exact manner I am looking for, which is what led me down the path to Lenlo.

 

I'm looking for someone who wants to avoid the next 2 deaths, and that is their primary motivation.

 

I do not believe that is your primary motivation. Tina and Shad give me that impression, Lenlo did until he did not. Sooh gives me that impression a little bit, and a bit of the reason why Cory is dipping is because of that same idea.

 

Cory I am not scum reading yet because my initial impression was that his glee in being a townie this game was genuine. But, I was promised hard in the paint cory and this does look similar to hard in the paint cory but isn't hard in the paint cory.

 

I want Cory to fulfill his promises.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza.......

 

Yeah, whatcha got for me today big daddy?

[Zander?]

Pizza. Might be unique to the set-up, because I think as a villager he can be a great asset and since we have the android mechanic we don't risk losing his voice by resolving his alignment (and hell, by clarifying it we give him a nice little platform to speak from if we are wrong). I'm not sure I'd ever want him dead d1 in a standard set-up because I'm not a Big Game Hunter type, but that's assuaged here pretty firmly.

 

With that said, I think he has a more than fair degree of wolf equity, is generally a range-y player who hasn't been deep into his villager range, and is in a game where I don't think a lot of players have been overtly wolfy which drags down his slot. I'm also weighing your read into it because I'm more of an LBJ than a Kobe and I'm happy with throwing my weight around with the few people I feel I can trust this game.

 

None of that goes with the "shoot a wolf you win, shoot a villager you lose" concept of my little game, to be fair. That shot I might reserve for Nikon.

 

 

Noted.  Can you go into a little more of your thought process on Pizza please?

 

 

 

*snip*

 

That honestly does make me sad.  But i really really dont think I've done anything that would actually upset you.  Only thing I did was disagree with your case on Besie,.  that's it.  I mean come on its Mafia, this type of stuff pretty much happens in almost every game.  Ive not been rude, or insulting at all.  Heck I havent even voted for you yet.  I dont see at all what you're "upset" about hence why I'm not able to buy into it my dear.

 

What's upsetting (yeah, no quotation marks) to me isn't that you don't agree with me. What's upsetting is that you can't see what I'm seeing, and also you have no other argument to support what you're seeing other than that "I see TownBesie". 

 

Also I hate patronizing.

 

 

Sooh I still you ldo!!! <3 <3 <3

 

And I of all people certainly knows the feeling of people not seeing what I see so I now get what youre upset about and will try to take that into consideration when evaluating your slot.

 

Also honest to God I wasnt trying to be patronizing!!!

 

Ive also said more then just Besie is Town.  I have given reasons and made comments on why I think so.

 

 

 

Zander is right. The discussion was about why I wasn't suspecting anyone else whom I know to be cunning for being cunning when I did suspect Besie for that reason. 

 

BFG is also right in that I have been mostly townreading those people. I am capable of making wrong guesses, both about Besie and about my town reads, but I have to make a decision somewhere. 

 

 

My favorite sentence in the English language!!!!!!!!

 

lolololololololol

[Zander?]

 

Pizza.......

 

Yeah, whatcha got for me today big daddy?

 

 

 

Just give me a couple mins to catch up if you can spare them!!!!

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yeah, I'm not leaving yet.

 

Zander, pay close attention to why I said you were town-Zander.

 

It's either TMI because I'm a wolf, or because I'm just a boss. Hint: the latter.

 

I am not afraid to town-read you after your scum performance which got me. I could fake all kinds of uncertainty on you if I wanted, and it's more useful than locking you town.

 

Oh well Zander did blah de blah in this other game, and it makes me a scare ed, I dunno, boo frickity hoo.

 

I find town Zanders and simply don't clear you for the same reasons. Why do I do that? Because I want to suck on your big sausage?

 

Well I do, but what other reason can there be.

[Zander?]

Is Pizza's characterisation of his mafia game (when he says he doesn't like making enemies) fair?

 

 

I mean I know Im not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I've talked to Pizza both in games and away from games about his Meta and style as each alignment and basically what I got from it all is: Pizza is pretty much capable for doing anything, at anytime, for any reason as any alignment.

 

Im sure his version would be much more concise and wordy but thats the TL-DR I took away from everything.