Diablo the mafia game!

[Zander?]

 

You gonna walk away because people wont just follow you...

Sort of??? I mean, that's certainly one way of slanting the narrative? It's more like, I realized I can't really be an effective Townie here anymore [or at least not AS EFFECTIVE as I could be] due to meta/reputation/site specific stuff/what have you.

 

We can talk more about it post game.

 

In the mean time I've been waiting pretty much all game for your scum case on me. Maybe focus more on that?

 

 

 

I like you your selecting only certain parts of my posts to respond to Yates.  Dont worry brother Im gonna lay it all out for you soon enough,

[Zander?]

 

 

 

 

Because why did you turn around and vote Lenlo? You had me, with your "I always get scum N1" speech, but then you last-minute changed, despite saying you wouldn't.

Because no one was listening to me except Lenlo? And Lenlo was pretty obviously getting lynched in order for this game to move forward? If it makes you feel any better, [or worse] I was pretty sure Lenlo was Town and my heart remained firmly voting Bender. And I will attempt, once again, to persuade people to vote Bender today or tell me why I'm wrong to push that lynch.

 

Basically, I have two of the three scum caught. I'm just trying to find the third. And the third is a lower volume player. And I was considering you because you have been way snarkier towards me than usual. And that feels kind of like "beer muscles" from someone who thinks they are on a good scum team that's going to win. I'm still debating.

 

 

I do agree with you so far on Bender.

 

Last night was wine driven, admittedly, but my snark is coming from worrying about you more this game. 

 

 

Are you still worrying about Yates this game?

 

 

Yes.

 

 

 

So you are worried about Yates and still agreeing with his assessment of us???  Please elaborate on this.

[Guest]

I compiled all of Bessie's posts related to Yates, but there are so many quotes it would take like six posts to present it all and parsing them out is killing me.

Sorry...

 

And thank you for going the mile. I've answered your question now so you can add that too... sorry.

[Taborline]

 

 

 

Because why did you turn around and vote Lenlo? You had me, with your "I always get scum N1" speech, but then you last-minute changed, despite saying you wouldn't.

Because no one was listening to me except Lenlo? And Lenlo was pretty obviously getting lynched in order for this game to move forward? If it makes you feel any better, [or worse] I was pretty sure Lenlo was Town and my heart remained firmly voting Bender. And I will attempt, once again, to persuade people to vote Bender today or tell me why I'm wrong to push that lynch.

 

Basically, I have two of the three scum caught. I'm just trying to find the third. And the third is a lower volume player. And I was considering you because you have been way snarkier towards me than usual. And that feels kind of like "beer muscles" from someone who thinks they are on a good scum team that's going to win. I'm still debating.

 

 

I do agree with you so far on Bender.

 

Last night was wine driven, admittedly, but my snark is coming from worrying about you more this game. 

 

 

 

Id like your thoughts on us in your own words if you don't mind mt dear.

 

 

Largely, because Besie's posts feel more confident and coached than I would think they would be if you were town. If you were town, I'd imagine your main advice to her would be to just be honest, and try to solve. Another small ping is Zander's reads list with Dice and Yates at the bottom - I don't know where that hard red reading of Dice is coming from, mainly as it's the opposite of my own read of him, and in my thoughts where I am worried about a Bender/Yates team, the idea of him having one known scum and one random, who others are saying they can't read as well, makes some sort of sense. 

[Taborline]

 

 

 

 

 

Because why did you turn around and vote Lenlo? You had me, with your "I always get scum N1" speech, but then you last-minute changed, despite saying you wouldn't.

Because no one was listening to me except Lenlo? And Lenlo was pretty obviously getting lynched in order for this game to move forward? If it makes you feel any better, [or worse] I was pretty sure Lenlo was Town and my heart remained firmly voting Bender. And I will attempt, once again, to persuade people to vote Bender today or tell me why I'm wrong to push that lynch.

 

Basically, I have two of the three scum caught. I'm just trying to find the third. And the third is a lower volume player. And I was considering you because you have been way snarkier towards me than usual. And that feels kind of like "beer muscles" from someone who thinks they are on a good scum team that's going to win. I'm still debating.

 

 

I do agree with you so far on Bender.

 

Last night was wine driven, admittedly, but my snark is coming from worrying about you more this game. 

 

 

Are you still worrying about Yates this game?

 

 

Yes.

 

 

 

So you are worried about Yates and still agreeing with his assessment of us???  Please elaborate on this.

 

 

I agree with him that I think you're scum.

[Clovdyx]

 

 

 

 

 

Then this conversation doesn't make any sense.  If you agree with him about Bender being mafia, why are you concerned about Yates at this point?  All of the negative traction int his game on Bender has stemmed from Yates' argument.  He made a comment that Lenlo flipping mafia would make him re-evaluate Bender to the point where Bender would be softcleared (I've at the point where I feel comfortable saying Yates KNEW Lenlo was going to flip town, so there was no chance he would have to "re-evaluate" Bender and could have a nice, easy lynch for today on the table); I would argue this same principle applies to Yates - if Zander shows up red, there is literally no reason for anybody to push Yates the rest of the game.

 

 

Maybe I'm paranoid? I said earlier that I wasn't afraid of him anymore, but maybe I still am - if Bender ends up turning red, it would make Yates look good and possibly give him an out for the rest of the game.

 

 

Well, yes, I just said that.  

 

Let me put this a different way.  You get to kill one of them right now.  Which one are you shooting?

 

 

I think my mind wants to shoot Bender, and my gut wants to shoot Yates. 

 

 

.....I could almost lynch you just for this.  You are either the most indecisive townie I've ever seen, or you're scum and don't want to get tied to whatever outcome happens.  

[Zander?]

 

 

 

 

 

Then this conversation doesn't make any sense.  If you agree with him about Bender being mafia, why are you concerned about Yates at this point?  All of the negative traction int his game on Bender has stemmed from Yates' argument.  He made a comment that Lenlo flipping mafia would make him re-evaluate Bender to the point where Bender would be softcleared (I've at the point where I feel comfortable saying Yates KNEW Lenlo was going to flip town, so there was no chance he would have to "re-evaluate" Bender and could have a nice, easy lynch for today on the table); I would argue this same principle applies to Yates - if Zander shows up red, there is literally no reason for anybody to push Yates the rest of the game.

 

 

Maybe I'm paranoid? I said earlier that I wasn't afraid of him anymore, but maybe I still am - if Bender ends up turning red, it would make Yates look good and possibly give him an out for the rest of the game.

 

 

Well, yes, I just said that.  

 

Let me put this a different way.  You get to kill one of them right now.  Which one are you shooting?

 

 

I think my mind wants to shoot Bender, and my gut wants to shoot Yates. 

 

 

you wanna just give this a straight answer?

[Clovdyx]

 

 

 

 

 

I don't honestly expect Zander to pay attention to shc stuff because, well, Zander, and I have no reason to believe the thought would have crossed Besie's mind in her first game. Is there anything about it that would make this oversight more likely to come from scum!Zander?

Why do people just assume Zander is some monkey pawing away at a keyboard? Yes, I accused him of acting dumb but Zander is no dummy. He knows perfectly well what SHC means BECAUSE HE WAS SHC IN THE WALKING DEAD.

http://www.mafiauniverse.net/threads/710-The-Walking-Dead?p=121893&viewfull=1#post121893

http://www.mafiauniverse.net/threads/710-The-Walking-Dead?p=121915&viewfull=1#post121915

 

There was never any question of whether Zander knew what SHC was. The question is whether he would stop to think about it before being reminded. But when I questioned him he acted as though he had thought about it but didn't believe it--to the extent of putting quite a few people above BFG with little to go on.  That aspect of it I do find suspicious. Did you read the rest of my post?

 

 

 

I havent seen a lot to make me place BFG really high yet.  I was quite confident AJ was just providing Seer cover so why should I have put much stock into this? Yes ofc I know what Seer Hunt Clear is not just form Yates TWD but I was in another game here I dont remember which one.  I think the one where Nyn and Kiv were playing and Dice "peeked" me and ate a bullet.

 

 

Three things:

 

1) Why would you NOT put much stock into it?  Do you disagree that mafia is more likely to kill someone who COULD be the cops, over somebody somebody who can't be the cop?  I thought AJ decreased his likeliness to be the cop as he started applying the hard sell (mostly because there were like three other people applying cover and I didn't think he would get a neon sign that pointed to himself), but at the time he did it, it looked convincing enough.  If somebody went fancy and killed him anyways, who do you think the team is?

 

From my POV, there are about four players on the site that would deliberately merc a confirmed non-cop.  BFG is absolutely not one of them.

 

2) Why does it matter if you think he was providing cover vs. genuinely being the cop?  He's dead.  I think that's reason enough.

 

3) Even ignoring the SHC aspect, I don't see why anybody should be doubting BFG at this point.  She would have been among my top townies for D1 even if I hadn't been presenting her as the peek, and that's only gone up today.  Without trying to insult her scumgame, I'm not sure she feels comfortable going after me for a mislynch D1, especially when it seems there's...one? other person that might help.  Her EoD play doesn't make a ton of sense from a scum POV to me, either.  Even if you're her teammate, she didn't have a ton of motivation for avoiding the Lenlo lynch IIRC...I don't think she'd really said a lot of positive things about him to the point of standing out had she voted him.

 

Just realizing that it wasn't necessary, I guess?

 

 

 

Im not sure exactly who the team is but Yates imo is certainly on it.  Would he be one of the 4 players?  And you keep saying im reading BFG so low Im not.  She a light town read on my list.  But she hadnt atp done anything to make me fully read her solid.

 

 

Yeah, he would be.  The other three that came to mind would be Cory, Kivam, and me (and I might actually be the MOST likely).  There are probably others that would reluctantly do it, or they would do it after playing enough games just to switch up the meta, but the ones that would actually be interested in doing it is a very small pool.  

 

And while you saying Yates would be on it is not inherently bad, I'm inclined to think you're saying that because you already think he's scum, rather than because you think he would want to do it.  Yates suffers from CCS - Chronic Copped Syndrome.  Sure, shooting AJ would give a "clear" to HisTeammate!BFG, but it comes with a very reasonable risk of Yates being peeked - especially that EOD garbage.  I have a hard time swallowing that he risks his own life to softclear one teammate, especially when it means people are going to tinfoil on her well before LYLO after she's not nightkilled.

[Taborline]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then this conversation doesn't make any sense.  If you agree with him about Bender being mafia, why are you concerned about Yates at this point?  All of the negative traction int his game on Bender has stemmed from Yates' argument.  He made a comment that Lenlo flipping mafia would make him re-evaluate Bender to the point where Bender would be softcleared (I've at the point where I feel comfortable saying Yates KNEW Lenlo was going to flip town, so there was no chance he would have to "re-evaluate" Bender and could have a nice, easy lynch for today on the table); I would argue this same principle applies to Yates - if Zander shows up red, there is literally no reason for anybody to push Yates the rest of the game.

 

 

Maybe I'm paranoid? I said earlier that I wasn't afraid of him anymore, but maybe I still am - if Bender ends up turning red, it would make Yates look good and possibly give him an out for the rest of the game.

 

 

Well, yes, I just said that.  

 

Let me put this a different way.  You get to kill one of them right now.  Which one are you shooting?

 

 

I think my mind wants to shoot Bender, and my gut wants to shoot Yates. 

 

 

you wanna just give this a straight answer?

 

 

 

You. 

[Clovdyx]

GTFO of my head, Zander.

[Shad_]

@Shad

 

 

 

 

@Shad

 

Thanks, I wish it worked but it's not an option while I'm on mobile version whilst being on mobile. I CAN switch to site version, and I've done that to multiple quote but it's harder to move the screen around.

 

 

 

 

Shad,

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ BFG

 

 

(also sorry Besie. I'm trying to catch my tablets autocorrect of your name, but I'm missing a fair few )

No problem.

 

How much talking are you doing with Besie?

He's CLEARLY not talking to me enough. I've starting irritating him with everything now. I don't like that he just discards my thoughts, irrespective of how new I am.

 

Yates, give me your spin on this post.

"Gosh guys. I'm just a noobie noob and so Zander never listens to me really but I like totally knew Lenlo was Town and just fell really REALLY bad that I wasn't here to talk some sense into my silly DRUNK partner when he voted Lenlo against my best wishes. Whoopsie! Town being Town, right? LAWWWWWLL!!!"

 

To her credit, she is doing her part to try to sell it.

 

No offense but give me a more serious answer, regarding this post specifically. Like, humor that not everyone is 99% convinced they're scum yet and try to look at this from an unbiased point of view. If it's a town statement, what is Besie talking about? If it's a scum statement, does it have intent or is it honest? Scum make lots of honest posts.

You're right. I'm doing a lot of confbias here. Let me see if I can read your mind...

 

If it is a scum statement? I think I showed you the intent. To try to win favor by both playing the noob card and simultaneously absolving herself [and thus Zander] of responsibility for the mislynch.

 

And I will tell you this; if Clov is their scum partner? They have ABSOLUTELY set this up. And he started the ball rolling with a really early post where he floated the idea that Bender is Town because Bessie looks "so natural and carefree" as if it's impossible to be coming from a first time scum. So the seeds of the whole noob thing have already been planted early and often by Clov.

 

If it is a Town statement? I don't see the purpose. It's like she is chastising Zander for voting Len without her permission? I'm guess that's about as much as I can say from that perspective. It's really more of a throw away comment to vent. Why? What are you seeing?

 

Ok.

He's CLEARLY not talking to me enough. I've starting irritating him with everything now. I don't like that he just discards my thoughts, irrespective of how new I am.

Now Besie's turn. Explain what was going through your head when you made this post. This is important.

At that point in time I was upset that he changed his, OUR, vote to Lenlo without first talking to me about it.

Ok. It looks like Yates interpreted your meaning here correctly and I was the one that was off. I thought that you were saying that in general, throughout this game, Zander was blowing you off in hydra QT. BFG had asked you a general question about your hydra communication thus far. I thought your answer was probably honest. While I wouldn't say that Zander fails to communicate with his team mates, he does have a history of going rogue. I could potentially see a hydra QT where Zander is telling you what he is thinking/planning but isn't really addressing your concerns and questions--especially if he's in the zone tunneling someone regardless of his alignment. Not saying Zander would necessarily do that, but it didn't feel out of the realm of possibility. And I thought Besie's probably not going to think to say it like this if she's not relying on Zander to answer her questions in the first place because she has someone like Clov or Yates in mafia QT to work with. So I thought you were either town or scum with two quieter players. But I misunderstood you.

 

It was about Lenlo, like Yates interpreted it. And that's problematic for a couple reasons Besie. First of all, Zander voted 7 hours before deadline when your slot and Lenlo's were tied for the lead. Is that a little early for pure self-preservation? Maybe. Or maybe you're too new for self-preservation to cross your mind, but I struggle with that. Realistically, you should have thought at some point that Lenlo is more likely to flip scum than you are, and if those are the only two options you can't really hate the vote too terribly much even if you hate the stated reason.

 

Second thing is you made one post after Zander switched. It was two hours later, to tell us that you weren't caught up but would try to get there after you finished working.

 

 

Guys I have not caught up and I can't yet (although I really want to). I just need to finish work on my dissertation tonight and then I'll catch up. I'm sorry!

 

 

You arrived D2 to say you were still catching up.

 

 

Hi peeps. I've been and still is catching up.

I'm going to catch up first and then respond where I feel the need to.

 

 

So from my perspective as a concerned town, it looks like work got you down and you never did manage to catch up prior to the D1 deadline. So when exactly were you and Zander supposed to talk about the vote change?

 

Do you see the issue here? Do you understand why Yates' interpretation of your motive as scummy and dishonest here makes sense, and do you have an answer for it?

 

 

I see and understand what you are saying Shad. I had hoped he would pm me to read in our qt about major changes. I'm always on my email while I'm working and I would have received the notification of a pm, and I would have read it. He knows this.

 

But as I said. I've been bothering him more since D1 to avoid it from happening again. For all purposes, we are on 90% same wavelength since start D2.

Ok. Does this make you feel any differently about Yates?

It doesn't really change my thoughts on Yates much. Since teaching me what "grasping at straws" look like in D1, I've constantly seen him doing the same to us. Especially with the Zander side of the hydra. I think it's only been twice to me. This feels like another straw to grasp at.

 

 

Ok. What about my POV on this topic (which you said made sense) and Yates' POV (which you call grasping at straws) is markedly different here?

 

Okay. I'm going to start with why yours made sense. I understood why you thought I meant that generally; and I completely understand about Zander going rogue.

 

But then you realized that I was specifically talking about my vote on Lenlo. And your reasoning makes sense, again. Yes, he made that vote 7 hours before. And yes, I posted after he did. I see how conclusions can be made from that. But the post I made, I literally opened mafia, typed it, and closed mafia. Then when I later was catching up, I didn't look at times. Honest question: should I? I've never even thought it was important.

 

 

The on why Yates feels like grasping at straws.

First, he said I played the noob card. Yes. Yes, I am playing the noob card. That may, like, just maybe be, because I AM A NOOB. My "noob card" is honest. I love this game so far. I don't want to make mistakes. I want to learn. From everyone. Zander is teaching me basics, and I can ask his opinion at any time. I appreciate that, and I believe that's how it should be.

 

Secondly, he implied that our lenlo vote could have changed the outcome. It couldn't have. I know that now, so me defending was unnecessary but I felt bad about it. That's about the gist of the situation. I felt bad that Lenlo was lynched when I had still been in the mindset that he was town a few hours before.

 

And lastly, I understood his last part of his post. I understand his thoughts on Clov concerning me. I accept that. I think we're past that point now - meaning, I hope you can read me without having to rely on initial small things (in this case, "natural and carefree") now.

 

So yes. In total, I felt like I understood your POV much easier than his.

 

 

 

 

There are things about Yates' case on you that I really dislike, the whole Z faking being as drunk as he was and colluding on how to play that first and foremost.  The only real difference I see in this instance though is that I saw a window into potential scum play and started asking questions, whereas Yates jumped immediately to conclusions.  If I resolve to thinking that you are scum, the conclusion I draw about what happened is pretty much the same as he presented: I think there is a decent chance Yates is right that something to the effect of "Just act like you hated my vote and it wouldn't have happened if I was sober and cooperative, so we can annul ourselves of guilt for the mislynch" was said, or else that you took independent action with this in mind.  This is different from say, the "pretend you are more drunk than you really are" case, which I doubt happened even if you are scum.  What I wanted to see if you would get around to is a conclusion of "yeah, Yates is wrong, but I can see why he might think that and still be town."  I don't think he was grasping at straws here.  I think he was being aggressive and snarky while I was playing nice, but we were observing the same thing whatever his motives may be.

 

It's not terribly obvious that Lenlo would have been lynched over you had Zander not switched votes.  I think it's pretty 50/50 which way the lynch would have gone had your slot stayed off the trains.  I also think failure to self-preserve is generally stupid regardless of alignment, and Yates should too, but Zander did not cast it as a self-pres vote and you did not support it as a self-pres vote.  So interpreting it as a move to get Lenlo mislynched rather than a move to save yourself is rooted in things the two of you have actually said, not just wagonomics.

[Shad_]

 

I compiled all of Bessie's posts related to Yates, but there are so many quotes it would take like six posts to present it all and parsing them out is killing me.

Sorry...

 

And thank you for going the mile. I've answered your question now so you can add that too... sorry.

 

 

I should have added "so I'm not going to finish and you can all just ISO her". 

[Guest]

Lol shad

[Shad_]

Clov, I've chatted with Besie a while this morning.  Any thoughts on what she had to say?

 

If you already shared them just point to the post.  I've been distracted and I'm mostly just reading her so far this morning.

[Pralaya]

Okay, I know you said later that you haven't FULLY caught up, but explain to me why you think Yates and Zander are likely v/v?  I think this is considerably more likely than w/w (I swear to god, if you two are doing a Lenlo-Zander thing I'm never talking to either of you again.  Not even kidding), but I don't know if both sides would just be hounding one another the way they have if they were ever trying to discern each other's alignment.  I fully understand that Yates is convinced Zander is guaranteed scum, and maybe he is, but barring a red check I don't understand how you don't stop to consider the merits of things they say.  Same can be said for Zander.  Do you think the two of them are just so bullheaded they're locked in their positions?

The way yates/zander had their argument, it did not have a feeling of distancing. I would have expected it to be more aggressive and more voting if that was case. Yates is voting zander now in D2. It is very likely of them to be firm of their views once they are on to something and I think that is what is the case here

 

I don't get your point on Thane at all.  I've played with him as scum...one time?... and he wasn't overly active that game at all.  Beyond that, if he's MORE active and you can see through him, how is his play this game not alignment indicative?

He is likely to be more nudging, throwing accusations around and trying to exploit any holes. But, at the same time he is not being very involved in the happenings. Which is why I am not fully sure if he is town but based on what he has posted, I think he is not that opportunistic.

 

I sort of disagree with your scum suspects, Dice moreso than Shad, but I especially disagree with you reasoning on Shad.  I don't see how you can interpret that first post you linked as him nudging Lenlo.  I would argue that asking another player on someone's typical behavior is a pro-town move.  Yeah, any decent scum can DO it, but the move itself comes from a townie mentality of trying to figure out how to read somebody.  The latter is slightly more "nudgey" but I don't see why it can't just be him trying to get somebody else to make an opinion.  Do you disagree with this?

Sure, but if you look at the way he posted. It was not as if he had anything to say of Lenlo. It was just "Let us discuss Lenlo. We need to" and started poking. That is what I felt odd. And it was after a long time that he actually gave his thoughts on him and voted. Like you said, individually the posts could be a townie figuring it out but collectively it doesn't give that picture to me.

[Pralaya]

Hi Pral. Nice to have you here.

Thanks Blom. I think I am playing with you for the first time. Hope to see you more.

[Clovdyx]

 

@Shad

 

 

 

 

@Shad

 

Thanks, I wish it worked but it's not an option while I'm on mobile version whilst being on mobile. I CAN switch to site version, and I've done that to multiple quote but it's harder to move the screen around.

 

 

 

 

Shad,

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ BFG

 

 

(also sorry Besie. I'm trying to catch my tablets autocorrect of your name, but I'm missing a fair few )

No problem.

 

How much talking are you doing with Besie?

He's CLEARLY not talking to me enough. I've starting irritating him with everything now. I don't like that he just discards my thoughts, irrespective of how new I am.

 

Yates, give me your spin on this post.

"Gosh guys. I'm just a noobie noob and so Zander never listens to me really but I like totally knew Lenlo was Town and just fell really REALLY bad that I wasn't here to talk some sense into my silly DRUNK partner when he voted Lenlo against my best wishes. Whoopsie! Town being Town, right? LAWWWWWLL!!!"

 

To her credit, she is doing her part to try to sell it.

 

No offense but give me a more serious answer, regarding this post specifically. Like, humor that not everyone is 99% convinced they're scum yet and try to look at this from an unbiased point of view. If it's a town statement, what is Besie talking about? If it's a scum statement, does it have intent or is it honest? Scum make lots of honest posts.

You're right. I'm doing a lot of confbias here. Let me see if I can read your mind...

 

If it is a scum statement? I think I showed you the intent. To try to win favor by both playing the noob card and simultaneously absolving herself [and thus Zander] of responsibility for the mislynch.

 

And I will tell you this; if Clov is their scum partner? They have ABSOLUTELY set this up. And he started the ball rolling with a really early post where he floated the idea that Bender is Town because Bessie looks "so natural and carefree" as if it's impossible to be coming from a first time scum. So the seeds of the whole noob thing have already been planted early and often by Clov.

 

If it is a Town statement? I don't see the purpose. It's like she is chastising Zander for voting Len without her permission? I'm guess that's about as much as I can say from that perspective. It's really more of a throw away comment to vent. Why? What are you seeing?

 

Ok.

He's CLEARLY not talking to me enough. I've starting irritating him with everything now. I don't like that he just discards my thoughts, irrespective of how new I am.

Now Besie's turn. Explain what was going through your head when you made this post. This is important.

At that point in time I was upset that he changed his, OUR, vote to Lenlo without first talking to me about it.

Ok. It looks like Yates interpreted your meaning here correctly and I was the one that was off. I thought that you were saying that in general, throughout this game, Zander was blowing you off in hydra QT. BFG had asked you a general question about your hydra communication thus far. I thought your answer was probably honest. While I wouldn't say that Zander fails to communicate with his team mates, he does have a history of going rogue. I could potentially see a hydra QT where Zander is telling you what he is thinking/planning but isn't really addressing your concerns and questions--especially if he's in the zone tunneling someone regardless of his alignment. Not saying Zander would necessarily do that, but it didn't feel out of the realm of possibility. And I thought Besie's probably not going to think to say it like this if she's not relying on Zander to answer her questions in the first place because she has someone like Clov or Yates in mafia QT to work with. So I thought you were either town or scum with two quieter players. But I misunderstood you.

 

It was about Lenlo, like Yates interpreted it. And that's problematic for a couple reasons Besie. First of all, Zander voted 7 hours before deadline when your slot and Lenlo's were tied for the lead. Is that a little early for pure self-preservation? Maybe. Or maybe you're too new for self-preservation to cross your mind, but I struggle with that. Realistically, you should have thought at some point that Lenlo is more likely to flip scum than you are, and if those are the only two options you can't really hate the vote too terribly much even if you hate the stated reason.

 

Second thing is you made one post after Zander switched. It was two hours later, to tell us that you weren't caught up but would try to get there after you finished working.

 

 

Guys I have not caught up and I can't yet (although I really want to). I just need to finish work on my dissertation tonight and then I'll catch up. I'm sorry!

 

 

You arrived D2 to say you were still catching up.

 

 

Hi peeps. I've been and still is catching up.

I'm going to catch up first and then respond where I feel the need to.

 

 

So from my perspective as a concerned town, it looks like work got you down and you never did manage to catch up prior to the D1 deadline. So when exactly were you and Zander supposed to talk about the vote change?

 

Do you see the issue here? Do you understand why Yates' interpretation of your motive as scummy and dishonest here makes sense, and do you have an answer for it?

 

 

I see and understand what you are saying Shad. I had hoped he would pm me to read in our qt about major changes. I'm always on my email while I'm working and I would have received the notification of a pm, and I would have read it. He knows this.

 

But as I said. I've been bothering him more since D1 to avoid it from happening again. For all purposes, we are on 90% same wavelength since start D2.

Ok. Does this make you feel any differently about Yates?

It doesn't really change my thoughts on Yates much. Since teaching me what "grasping at straws" look like in D1, I've constantly seen him doing the same to us. Especially with the Zander side of the hydra. I think it's only been twice to me. This feels like another straw to grasp at.

 

 

Ok. What about my POV on this topic (which you said made sense) and Yates' POV (which you call grasping at straws) is markedly different here?

 

Okay. I'm going to start with why yours made sense. I understood why you thought I meant that generally; and I completely understand about Zander going rogue.

 

But then you realized that I was specifically talking about my vote on Lenlo. And your reasoning makes sense, again. Yes, he made that vote 7 hours before. And yes, I posted after he did. I see how conclusions can be made from that. But the post I made, I literally opened mafia, typed it, and closed mafia. Then when I later was catching up, I didn't look at times. Honest question: should I? I've never even thought it was important.

 

 

The on why Yates feels like grasping at straws.

First, he said I played the noob card. Yes. Yes, I am playing the noob card. That may, like, just maybe be, because I AM A NOOB. My "noob card" is honest. I love this game so far. I don't want to make mistakes. I want to learn. From everyone. Zander is teaching me basics, and I can ask his opinion at any time. I appreciate that, and I believe that's how it should be.

 

Secondly, he implied that our lenlo vote could have changed the outcome. It couldn't have. I know that now, so me defending was unnecessary but I felt bad about it. That's about the gist of the situation. I felt bad that Lenlo was lynched when I had still been in the mindset that he was town a few hours before.

 

And lastly, I understood his last part of his post. I understand his thoughts on Clov concerning me. I accept that. I think we're past that point now - meaning, I hope you can read me without having to rely on initial small things (in this case, "natural and carefree") now.

 

So yes. In total, I felt like I understood your POV much easier than his.

 

 

 

 

There are things about Yates' case on you that I really dislike, the whole Z faking being as drunk as he was and colluding on how to play that first and foremost.  The only real difference I see in this instance though is that I saw a window into potential scum play and started asking questions, whereas Yates jumped immediately to conclusions.  If I resolve to thinking that you are scum, the conclusion I draw about what happened is pretty much the same as he presented: I think there is a decent chance Yates is right that something to the effect of "Just act like you hated my vote and it wouldn't have happened if I was sober and cooperative, so we can annul ourselves of guilt for the mislynch" was said, or else that you took independent action with this in mind.  This is different from say, the "pretend you are more drunk than you really are" case, which I doubt happened even if you are scum.  What I wanted to see if you would get around to is a conclusion of "yeah, Yates is wrong, but I can see why he might think that and still be town."  I don't think he was grasping at straws here.  I think he was being aggressive and snarky while I was playing nice, but we were observing the same thing whatever his motives may be.

 

It's not terribly obvious that Lenlo would have been lynched over you had Zander not switched votes.  I think it's pretty 50/50 which way the lynch would have gone had your slot stayed off the trains.  I also think failure to self-preserve is generally stupid regardless of alignment, and Yates should too, but Zander did not cast it as a self-pres vote and you did not support it as a self-pres vote.  So interpreting it as a move to get Lenlo mislynched rather than a move to save yourself is rooted in things the two of you have actually said, not just wagonomics.

 

 

10/10 post.  Even if I don't agree with some of the conclusions, this is an outstanding post and even if you're scum, which I strongly doubt at this point, I can safely say I will not lynch you unless we get to a POE lock.  Bold actually suggests you are trying to resolve them, even if you're simultaneously casing them; you're not just pile driving them into the ground and attempting everything they say into some stupid point against them.

 

That said, I went back and tried to relook at the wagon because of the bottom paragraph.  Based on the lack of formatting, I'm pretty sure I was wondering why Zander was calling for people to vote Lenlo instead of voting him, himself, when I saw it "live".  Now that I look at it again, you're obviously right that it wasn't remotely presented as a selfpres is perfectly fair.  I disagree that it was 50/50 as to who got lynched.  Even if it wasn't declared as a selfpres vote AND Zander hadn't voted Len right there, I think most people can assume he would have moved over before he let himself get lynched (as any alignment), and I don't think it's presumptuous to say anyone could have expected ME to vote Len over Bender if needed.

[Guest]

 

Hi Pral. Nice to have you here.

Thanks Blom. I think I am playing with you for the first time. Hope to see you more.

Yes, you are! It's my first game. I've been enjoying it.

[Pralaya]

So here's the post I've been dreading....

 

[deep breath]

 

As I looked back at the Lenlo mislynch and considered the conviction and tenacity with which I pursued a Bender lynch I was left with one burning question; what went wrong? I felt like I raised good points about Zander in particular. I felt like - in a vacuum - my case was WAY more solid than anything else presented. And as I look back on the success I have on other sites I wonder why I can't duplicate that success here. Why can't I get people to follow my logic? And I realize it isn't me. It's the player base. People here clear their friends and people they like for questionable to no reason. I mean, I love Zander to bits. But this is a game. And he is just as likely to rand scum as any of my other friends and people that I like. In the mean time, I watch Lenlo get pounded into the dirt over and over again. I will grant you that we have been lucky he has randed scum for some of them. But honestly, he was going to get pounded regardless of alignment as he was here. And for whatever reason, people tinfoil on me A LOT more here than anywhere else despite the fact I seldom rand wolf anymore. So this means it must be a reputation thing. And if it's a reputation thing? I can never shed that. So that made me come to the realization that I really just can't play mafia here anymore. But then as I thought about it further I realized that if I don't play mafia here I really have nothing to add to this board so quite honestly I'll just stop coming to this site entirely.

 

I guess this is a long winded way of me saying that I'm retiring from DM mafia. And that I won't likely be on this site very often as a result. So I hope many of you will come visit mafiauniverse.net [soon to be mafiauniverse.com]. Because... this is my goodbye.

Uhhhh. This is nothing compared to the feeling I had when I had Cory and Zander as scum in the Matrix game and I got lynched for those reads. Things happen. It is more like people are afraid to take those steps and boldly talk about their scum reads afraid that they would get targetted instead.

 

Curiously, if Zander ended up town. How would your reaction be? Based on what you said here?

[鲍勃不是我的名字]

So here's the post I've been dreading....

 

[deep breath]

 

As I looked back at the Lenlo mislynch and considered the conviction and tenacity with which I pursued a Bender lynch I was left with one burning question; what went wrong? I felt like I raised good points about Zander in particular. I felt like - in a vacuum - my case was WAY more solid than anything else presented. And as I look back on the success I have on other sites I wonder why I can't duplicate that success here. Why can't I get people to follow my logic? And I realize it isn't me. It's the player base. People here clear their friends and people they like for questionable to no reason. I mean, I love Zander to bits. But this is a game. And he is just as likely to rand scum as any of my other friends and people that I like. In the mean time, I watch Lenlo get pounded into the dirt over and over again. I will grant you that we have been lucky he has randed scum for some of them. But honestly, he was going to get pounded regardless of alignment as he was here. And for whatever reason, people tinfoil on me A LOT more here than anywhere else despite the fact I seldom rand wolf anymore. So this means it must be a reputation thing. And if it's a reputation thing? I can never shed that. So that made me come to the realization that I really just can't play mafia here anymore. But then as I thought about it further I realized that if I don't play mafia here I really have nothing to add to this board so quite honestly I'll just stop coming to this site entirely.

 

I guess this is a long winded way of me saying that I'm retiring from DM mafia. And that I won't likely be on this site very often as a result. So I hope many of you will come visit mafiauniverse.net [soon to be mafiauniverse.com]. Because... this is my goodbye.

 

You will be missed.

[鲍勃不是我的名字]

 

What's your opinion on Tabor?

Undetermined. But I had her at like 60% likely scum with Bender at 95% and Clov at 85%. And the crazy thing is? I can see a scum team of EXACTLY Bender/Clov/Tabs based on interactions and certain posts directed at me.

 

 

I can support a lynch of Bender or Clov

[Clovdyx]

Clov, I've chatted with Besie a while this morning.  Any thoughts on what she had to say?

 

If you already shared them just point to the post.  I've been distracted and I'm mostly just reading her so far this morning.

 

She's made a few posts I wasn't crazy about, which had less to do with what she said and more to do with how she said it.

 

 

 

 

 

About yates

 

 

 

 

I want to share this.I was saying to Z how much fun it is to town and he was like "YEAH ITS THE THRILL OF THE HUNT LOLOLOLOL"Bahahaha. It kinda is like hunting, isn't it. I feel like I'm becoming addicted to this game.

Serious question; who wrote this for you? I'm glad you are fooling Shad with this nonsense. Seriously. But it's becoming transparent at this point.

I wrote that. It's who I am. I express excitement when I feel it. After reading through the posts of the day so far, I have to ask though. Why are you so hard on us? I understand your reasoning. I do.

 

But there are some contradictions.

First you say that I'm being pulled on strings like a puppet. And then you say that I'm the one thinking up strategic manoeuvres (as seen in the post I quoted a few posts above this one). Which is it?

 

 

  

So here's the post I've been dreading....[deep breath]As I looked back at the Lenlo mislynch and considered the conviction and tenacity with which I pursued a Bender lynch I was left with one burning question; what went wrong? I felt like I raised good points about Zander in particular. I felt like - in a vacuum - my case was WAY more solid than anything else presented. And as I look back on the success I have on other sites I wonder why I can't duplicate that success here. Why can't I get people to follow my logic? And I realize it isn't me. It's the player base. People here clear their friends and people they like for questionable to no reason. I mean, I love Zander to bits. But this is a game. And he is just as likely to rand scum as any of my other friends and people that I like. In the mean time, I watch Lenlo get pounded into the dirt over and over again. I will grant you that we have been lucky he has randed scum for some of them. But honestly, he was going to get pounded regardless of alignment as he was here. And for whatever reason, people tinfoil on me A LOT more here than anywhere else despite the fact I seldom rand wolf anymore. So this means it must be a reputation thing. And if it's a reputation thing? I can never shed that. So that made me come to the realization that I really just can't play mafia here anymore. But then as I thought about it further I realized that if I don't play mafia here I really have nothing to add to this board so quite honestly I'll just stop coming to this site entirely.I guess this is a long winded way of me saying that I'm retiring from DM mafia. And that I won't likely be on this site very often as a result. So I hope many of you will come visit mafiauniverse.net [soon to be mafiauniverse.com]. Because... this is my goodbye.

 

 

In all honesty, this feels like ... what do you call it... that thing where are overly emotional in an attempt to gain some sympathy? It's not working, sweetheart.

 

 <chop>

 

 

I don't care about you, or anybody else here, in the context of this game.  

LOL - don't worry about it. It's not your fault you randed scum.One minor criticism is that you need to make your defenses of your scum buddies less obvious. I am ALWAYS lynching you tomorrow. 100%. After Bender flips scum.

So my question is... is this bussing?

 

 

 

 

 

@Besie - game play aside, because I obviously think you are cool and I'm encouraged to see you playing here and I can't wait to see you posting more pics of monkey's in the thread because monkeys make me laugh... Are you upset that I caught you? Or do you think I'm really being mean to you? Or are you impressed that I caught Zander so easily and now you are just trying to do your part to try to salvage your slot from the wreckage he caused? Because I know it sucks to be caught scum. And so I won't take the name calling personal at all. 

Aaaw yates. If I could catch and post a monkey to you, I would.

 

You've made a mistake though, sweetheart. We're town. I guess we both don't trust the other though.

 

Oh, and before I forget. So you are looking forward to seeing me? So that does mean your previous "I feel so sorry for myself; goodbye" post was, in fact... Appeal to Emotion (I believe that's the term)?

 

 

 

 

 

The tone of these (and some others...trying to make it so I don't have to do multiple posts) rubs me the wrong way.  I don't know what kind of relationship Besie and Yates have - if any, at all - but the repeated use of "sweetheart" seems very... passive aggressive and fake, I guess.  If they have some super close friendship and that's how they normally talk, then maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but it just doesn't fit.

 

The bottom part of the first quote I'm not sold on.  I understand that Yates very much is presenting me as scum.  I understand that BFG thinks I'm scum.  Totally get it.  But I have a hard time convincing myself that she thinks how Yates and I have interacted is reasonably going to come from teammates, and more importantly, that Zander hasn't told her it's impossible at this point.

 

With the bottom, I'm going to assume that "we're town" refers to her and Zander...not their slot and Yates.  If that's the case, I'm not sure the point of "I guess we both don't trust the other".  Anyone reading the thread knows that, and if Bender is all but sure Yates is scum, it's not really an issue of him not trusting them - it's an issue of he's deliberately trying to kill them so he can win.

 

I already posted my thoughts on her take on Yates' statement about her bringing up the drinking thing, I'll pull it in a sec.

 

 

What I really like about Besie this morning is that she's TRYING to work with you.  I'm going to do the thing I do where I make assumptions about people's playing and say that a new player is more likely to support somebody who is questioning them, rather than outright trying to murder them.  It's not easy to say "Look, I understand you are suspicious of me, and I understand <argument> but you're wrong because <reason>".  It's REALLY not easy to say, "Look, you're not even trying to work with me, but I'm going to remain objective and try to handle you rationally."  I don't assume this is easier for someone playing their first game.  

 

So unless you two are teammates and she's trying to make you look better than she's trying to make Yates look, I don't dislike how she's handled you at all.

[Clovdyx]

 

 

What's your opinion on Tabor?

Undetermined. But I had her at like 60% likely scum with Bender at 95% and Clov at 85%. And the crazy thing is? I can see a scum team of EXACTLY Bender/Clov/Tabs based on interactions and certain posts directed at me.

 

 

I can support a lynch of Bender or Clov

 

 

Go on.

[鲍勃不是我的名字]

@NotBob

 

 

 

Okay, I am quite unhappy with this Notbob person. Who are you and where are you and ?????? Seriously? If you're gonna play, then maybe play?

 

 

 

ok...has bessie posted?

Yes.

Thanks to Yates.

 

Also, Where is Pral?

 

Why are you unhappy?

  

 

 

What makes you more concerned about NotBob than Pral at the moment?

 

Hi Shad, sorry, I'm with my friend. Zander said you asked a question.

I'm not more concerned with him. I'm more annoyed with him. Because he asked whether I had posted yet and I've been posting since like page 3/4. And he didn't know we were Bender. It says we're bender in both the sign up thread and page 1.

 

Show me where I asked you for anything?  I didn't pay attention to the signup thread nor anything else prior to my first post.  The fact that both of you are so nervous leads to suspicion.

I am "unhappy" because I do not appreciate your complete lack of an attempt to even play this game. You came in here and automatically thought the worst of me. You don't even know me. You are soooo suspicious of me but you have nothing to has this on! And to top it all off, you refuse to even read D1, which is the only place where you CAN get to know me.

 

I'm not nervous about your vote. I'm upset. I feel like you should at least TRY to find the wolves with me.

 

[/unquote

 

I don't think the worst of you.  I just didn't bother to read your hydra with Zander.  Zander appears scummy so you by alignment must be scum as well.  Nothing personal.  I found a wolf...I'm holding on until proven otherwise.  Pretend you're town for a minute and the logic should appear crystal clear.

[鲍勃不是我的名字]

 

 

 

 

 

Haven't even started to read...Vote Zander

 

risins???  

 

 

spellig...the dude can't spell

 

 

Have you done anything at all this game?  Like I've played with you before so this stuff doesn't ping me too bad about you but come on man.

 

 

 

For Lenlo to just come in and put the lynch entirely on Yates' shoulders like that, it looks bad.

I will grant you that if the Lenlo lynch goes through and he flips scum I will need to reevaluate how I am interpreting Zander's intent because that would look make them SHC-equivalent in my mind.

 

 

For some reason this makes me feel like you already knew the outcome of a Len lynch....And you can continue your push against us while saying that I said if this happened i would change my read but it didnt so....

 

 

Nope.  But your sensitivity to my vote on you is noted.  What you so worried about if as you say I do not ping?  I may be rusty in my return but your actions smell like scum.

 

 

Dude Id have responded like this no matter who it was.  Your post to vote was like vote Zander I havent even read yet,  I didnt say that it didnt ping i said it didnt ping me too much.  You're posting more now that will give me more to work with.  But you show up a little before DL with nothing solid to contribute to the game so ya imma call that stuff out.

 

 

Personally I hadn't read anything to that point.  Didn't realize we were near deadline.  All I see is misdirection after I voted you.  Guess my vote struck a nerve among the crowd.  Who knew?