[Standard] The Matrix Reloaded - Game Over

[ReleaseTheEvil]

 

Detecting some rustle

Me too.

 

 

I don't like absolutes like that, especially based on "Well x thought they were town sooooo..." Think it's poor play. It's like me saying "Ok, that's it. Cory said Lenlo is scum. I am not voting anyone else until he is dead. He will always be my number one scum suspect till he is dead."

[Shad_]

Ok, in case I never actually catch up, Lenlo RTE and Tab are probably scum, Yates maybe fourth. 

[Yates]

I'm going to call this the Town core:

 

Yates

Corlanna

Zander

Shad

 

Anybody up for inviting Sili in? I feel okay inviting Sili in if he can get over his Corlanna read.

[Shad_]

There is no situation where we are not lynching [v]Lenlo[/v] today and I'm not going to be on to conk you lot over your thick skulls so let's just get on with it now.

[Lenlo]

Ok so Shad thinks Me, RTE, Tab and Yates are scum.

I think Zander, Corlanna, Tab and Hallia are scum.

Yates thinks Corlanna, Zander, Shad and maybe Sili are town.

 

Great.

[Taborline]

 

 

 

 

 

Her hammer is too obviously wolfy to be agenda driven. Dont fall into that trap...

Entirely dependent on whether or not Lenlo is a wolf

 

 

This is what makes me think we should be trying to look elsewhere right now? Lenlo's resolution would give us a LOT of help, I think, but we can't afford to lose more town players.

 

 

What are you suggesting here?

 

 

 

I wonder if Lenlo is being pushed through as a town player, and am worried that other reads are too dependent on his flip. If he IS town, we aren't really in a position to lose him for that sake as we've lost too many town already.

 

 

Cool that's four.

 

 

Scum for wanting to be cautious about losing town players?

[Shad_]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Her hammer is too obviously wolfy to be agenda driven. Dont fall into that trap...

Entirely dependent on whether or not Lenlo is a wolf

 

 

This is what makes me think we should be trying to look elsewhere right now? Lenlo's resolution would give us a LOT of help, I think, but we can't afford to lose more town players.

 

 

What are you suggesting here?

 

 

 

I wonder if Lenlo is being pushed through as a town player, and am worried that other reads are too dependent on his flip. If he IS town, we aren't really in a position to lose him for that sake as we've lost too many town already.

 

 

Cool that's four.

 

 

Scum for wanting to be cautious about losing town players?

 

 

Your entire reason for copping out of lynching the scummiest player in this game is "anyone could be town.

[Yates]

I don't like absolutes like that, especially based on "Well x thought they were town sooooo..." Think it's poor play. It's like me saying "Ok, that's it. Cory said Lenlo is scum. I am not voting anyone else until he is dead. He will always be my number one scum suspect till he is dead."

If I were scum? I wouldn't like Town being correctly cleared for reasons I don't appreciate/understand either. So I feel you, RTE.

[ReleaseTheEvil]

Town to Scummy for me would be 

 

RTE

Zander

Sili

Shad

 

Followed by

Dice

Tabor

Thane

 

And then we have

 

Yates

Corlanna

Lenlo

Hallia 

[Yates]

Ok so Shad thinks Me, RTE, Tab and Yates are scum.

I think Zander, Corlanna, Tab and Hallia are scum.

Yates thinks Corlanna, Zander, Shad and maybe Sili are town.

 

Great.

Yup.

 

Which conveniently leaves Tab, Hally, Lenlo, and RTE.

[Yates]

OMG RTE!

 

Town to Scummy for me would be 

 

RTE

Zander

Sili

Shad

 

Followed by

Dice

Tabor

Thane

 

And then we have

 

Yates

Corlanna

Lenlo

Hallia

 

LMAO. Yeah, RTE just scum claimed and I don't think he even realizes it...

[ReleaseTheEvil]

 

I don't like absolutes like that, especially based on "Well x thought they were town sooooo..." Think it's poor play. It's like me saying "Ok, that's it. Cory said Lenlo is scum. I am not voting anyone else until he is dead. He will always be my number one scum suspect till he is dead."

If I were scum? I wouldn't like Town being correctly cleared for reasons I don't appreciate/understand either. So I feel you, RTE.

 

 

How can you say he's correctly cleared though? Fair enough that you and Cory have played a lot together. Of the remaining players I would believe that you can read him best (or Alanna were she not already hyra-ing), but your clearing him is completely reliant on Clov. Clov is good but he isn't infallible. Do you trust Clov's read 100% then? Appears that way anyhow. I would be much more interested in who Clov was suspicious of than who Clov read as town. I guess question two would be how confident are you that Clov would bodyguard Cory over anyone else?

[Lenlo]

Wheres the scum claim in that? Its Town to Scum, and hes at the top?

[ReleaseTheEvil]

OMG RTE!

 

 

Town to Scummy for me would be 

 

RTE

Zander

Sili

Shad

 

Followed by

Dice

Tabor

Thane

 

And then we have

 

Yates

Corlanna

Lenlo

Hallia

 

LMAO. Yeah, RTE just scum claimed and I don't think he even realizes it...

 

 

Huh? 

[Shad_]

 

Lynching for info?

 

I've seen Lenlo described by someone as an info Lynch. Which I'm now understanding a bit more as it may shed more light on EoD votes and hammers

 

 

 

Alright, my Lenlo notes for the bored and curious:

 

 

 

#51 -- Awkward joke irt Clov's joke vote, soft suss of Sili for casting a second joke vote on the same person. "Second vote huh? Its Sili, I know, but ima keep mah eye on you boy"

 

#54 -- Backs off the Sili suss because of meta.

 

#129 -- Votes Corlanna to get their attention. "Get in here."

 

#175 -- Correctly informs Sili that he hasn't responded to his accusers because they haven't actually accused him of anything, says he doesn't take it seriously. Susses Rack for the opportunistic second vote ~~this is a consistant reason with #51 at least, but the whole 'whoever drops a second joke/unexplained vote early is scummy' thing is dumb~~. Defends Yates and says Yates/Sili could easily be v/v violence because no one is intervening to break up the argument. ~~I really don't get the reasoning here.

 

#176 -- Repeats Dice in asking Sili if he's drunk. ~~I commented on this earlier, suggested scum!Lenlo could be trying to discredit Sili's capacity to make early reads. I'm already starting to feel like a scum flip on him would spew Sili town.

 

#189 -- Defends himself against Sili, asks if Sili has a similar opinion on Pral Nomi and Dice or if he's singling Lenlo out, since they also lacked early content.

 

#193/197 -- Responds to my criticism of his "Sili is drunk" comment, says he understands my POV but he was just joking around because Sili kept misspelling things.

 

#270 -- Responds to Clov's criticism telling him the game hasn't heated up enough for him to get really involved. Asks Clov to expand on his scum read of Sooh but doesn't offer his own opinion. Agrees that Zander is fishy.

 

#275 -- Makes good on his promise to reread and comes up with this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Page 4 - Sili goes crazy. Hes kinda spamming the thread here, most of it is pointless. Why?

 

Thane has 2 posts. Nothing of content in them. Checks in then checks out

 

Rack hasnt actually contributed at all. Hes just pushed something with no reason and then let Sili do all the work. atleast in terms of my train. He did alittle bit of poking at Zander but nothing serious. I feel like he might be pushing me early as a reaction train? Like see what people do, who jumps on a quick bandwagon, how I defend myself. Just get some overall reactions. Seeing how he plays it out will be interesting and telling imo.

 

Zander posted a good amount, but mostly just light hearted stuff. I want MEAT. Quick to jump on me, and stay on me I might add, when I vote Corlanna jokingly.

 

Clov disagrees with Rack on Zander, but thinks hes town. Also engages Sili abit. Hes not afraid to confront people

 

Lots of inactives this game. We have to be careful about people pushing them for weak reasons, as I think that would be an easy for the scum to rack up some easy days/kills.

 

Cory not saying anything meaningful, votes Sooh. Cmon Coreh. Help me out here.

 

Hallia soft defends me for no reason. Its not major but something worth noting imo.

 

Sooh pokes at Sili, doesnt back it with a vote. I dunno why but I kinda feel like she is testing the waters for a Sili push. Have nothing to back this up atm sadly.

 

Dice gettin friendly with Sooh.

 

Yates comes in guns blazing. I noticed Sili is questionable of it, but I like it.

 

Sili, lots of votes, lots of posts, moderate amount of content imo. Got into it with Yates. Gets pissy at me when I dismiss his and Racks push on me because it has nothing to it. I asked if he was drunk. Apparently this was stupid. Im still amused by it. After I respond to him though, he finally posts a good meaningful, more than 1 line post. I liked it.

 

Tab posts. Says nothing.

 

Shad is playin. I cant really get a read on him for some reason, but hes posting content so... yay? I wanna like him but I feel like I need something more, so I can make sure its not just me liking him cause he defended me/chatted with me.

 

Nomi. Votes Yates jokingly, even though Sili has been going at him. Odd?

 

 

 

 

I had quotes, but it kinda went up in flames cause DM. I have work I need to do tonight, so im just gonna post my notepad thoughts that came up as I was reading. Heres my current list.

 

 

(In not particular order)

 

Town:

Clov

Yates

Lenlo

 

Null to Town:

Rack

Shad

Sili

 

Null:

Hallia

Parlaya

Corlanna (Cory/Alanna)

Taborline

Dice

BFG

Nomi

 

Null to Scum:

Thane

Zander

Sooh

 

Scum:

 

 

 

[v]Sooh[/v]

 

I wanna see how this goes, and maybe shed some light on Dice and Sili in the process.

 

 

~~Biggest takeaways for me. He says mostly negative things about Rack but has him as one of only five players with a town lean. Only (potentially) positive thing is that he thinks Rack was reaction fishing with the vote.

 

~~Scum lean on Thane for absolutely no reason beyond low content--same reason he gives for null reading a ton of other people.

 

~~Links Dice with Sooh? Also thinks Sooh might be "testing the waters for a Sili push", leans scum on her for it and votes her.

 

~~First time mentioning Zander unless I missed something, criticizes him jumping on him for joke voting Cory and not removing the vote later.

 

#278 -- Zander is the first to comment on Lenlo's post above, and first to call out Lenlo for having a totally random reason for sussing Thane (omg I forgot that was you ). My town brother says: "So your top 3 Scum reads: So you have Thane null to scum based on the above posts. Sooh based on sussing Sili. Me for being lighthearted and voting you. this is just a horrible list man."

 

#279 -- Lenlo responds with:

Thane: Not doing anything at all. Just checking out.

Sooh: General tone and a bad feeling.

You: High post count, little content.

Disagree? Please, gimme somethin to work with.

 

#282

 

 

 

 

The difference is this: My vote on Corlanna was on someone who wasnt being pushed at all, had no case against him and had no real way of going anywhere. Yours on me though is different imo.

 

I havnt played with Thane in a long time. Even if that is how he is, thats not something to encourage imo. People encouraged how I palyed before and see where that lead before I took a break?

 

 

~~Doesn't explain what's different about it. Interesting since Lenlo had just told Sili that he (Lenlo) hadn't responded to early criticism because the people who'd voted had no case against him. He's also not grasping that what's fishy about his Thane suss is that other players were doing the same thing yet earned a mere null.

 

#284 -- Surprised that Sili is willing to vote Rack since Sili seems to agree with Rack. Isn't surprised that Sili is willing to vote Sooh.

 

#289 -- "Some pressure and look who shows up." irt Thane popping into the thread. ~~This is pretty BS. The "pressure" came an hour prior. No offense if you're town Lenlo but like, was he supposed to go into hiding for the next 12 hours because you sussed him? Would that have been more town?

 

#382 -- "I caught up, but I'm on the bus." (is voting Sooh, would be lulz ) Says Zander hasn't put forth effort yet, says he singled out Thane "because he bugged me more."

 

#394 -- Asks for other people's opinions on Thane.

 

#397 -- Humors that he might be wrong on Thane if no one else is bothered by him. ~~Doesn't hold Zander to the same standard.

 

#431 -- Criticizes Zander for taking issue with his Thane suss despite Lenlo not actively pushing for his lynch. Says Tab looks better than Thane. Asks Zander for his thoughts on Sooh.

 

#453 -- Zander had said he has trouble reading Sooh and needs more content to work with. Lenlo responds that this is a cop-out answer. ~~Didn't Lenlo say the same about like half of the players in this game in #275?

 

#458 -- Nomi had said that he doesn't think Rack/Lenlo are w/w because team mates more often mutually distance. He doesn't think that scum!Rack would criticize Lenlo while scum!Lenlo "cuddles" him. Lenlo responds that he's not "cuddling" Rack and thinks Rack is playing poorly, but wants to give Rack some time to explain his reasoning.

 

#502 -- Zander had high-fived me for articulating the issue with the Thane suss. Lenlo criticizes Zander for relying on me to do all the work, and agrees to give a better explanation later. ~~But it was Zander's criticism in the first place. If anyone piggybacked, it was me. I just spelled it out more.

 

#548 -- Asks Sili to explain what changed his opinion on Cory.

 

#624 -- "I'm really looking forward to what Rack has to say when he gets back, cause that's probably where he's gonna sink or swim in my reads."

 

#643 -- Says scum!Cory has tricked Lenlo too many times for Lenlo to trust him "until he does his usual thing", generally thinks Cory has been withdrawn from the game a bit.

 

#694 -- Says the longer Rack goes without content the more he's slinking into Lenlo's scum pile.

 

#809 -- At this point Rack had just made his first real content post in the thread. He'd said he didn't like Lenlo's reaction to the fake wagon but felt Zander's behavior was way scummier, voted him with reasons. Lenlo responds asking Rack what he didn't like about Lenlo's reaction and what his thoughts are on everyone else. Rack gives him a kind of blow-off response to this.

 

#828 -- Says Dice hasn't been paying attention, says Zander is still at the bottom of the barrel and Rack is sliding down rapidly.

 

#867 -- "See, I dont like Zander cause he never definitively says something that someone else hasn't said first.", goes on about Zander sheeping. ~~I can generally understand how someone might get that impression from Zander, but I haven't in this game personally.

 

#873 -- Says he wouldn't try to stop a Zander lynch. ~~omg no way

 

#892 -- I had started to ask Rack some critical questions about his case on Zander. Lenlo interjects, saying I need to stop putting words into Zander's mouth and let him "stand on his own two feet and defend himself some." Tells Nomi that Zander's ratio of OC to posts is incredibly low.

 

~~Ok so at this point Lenlo is tunneled so hard it's gotten silly, and I don't know if scum!Lenlo says "I'm going to ignore the game and mostly fixate on one player so they'll all think I'm town" or if it's legit. Because it's Zander, oh my god because it's Zander, if Z somehow turned out to be scum we policy lynch Lenlo 10000000% of the time. Z scum confirms Lenlo scum imo. But I don't think it holds the other way and Zander has earned a town read from me on his own merrits, not for some twtbaw garbage like I granted him in Belichick. But anyway, what bugs me about #892 is that at this point Lenlo is expressing deep concern with Rack for his lack of content, yet when I start to dig at Rack for content he kind of blows in and puts his foot on the brakes and turns it back to a Zander conversation. Lenlo had already been talked out of his scum read on Thane. is scum!Lenlo concerned here that his other two mislynch pushes might get derailed as well, or is it legit tunnel vision? /shrug

 

#897

 

 

 

 

I agree with the premise's in theory, but I suppose I disagree with the conclusion. I dont think someone who only posts other peoples words is likely to be town. Thus, I want them lynched. I acknowledge I can be wrong here, as I have only played 1 game since I came back and everyone else seems to think Zander is town. I refuse to let that stop me from pushing him until he either gets better and becomes the hero we need, or breaks and crumbles into dust.

 

As for your concern, I can answer that. I am playing a controlled game. I try to think about the majority of what I post and I do have plans/ideas that I am attempting to pull off in the hopes of catching scum/proving townies. This is because for a span of probably 6 months before I took a break I was (In my mind atleast) considered a jester of mafia. No one took me seriously. I coasted on jokes, chatting and the occasional good mafia gambit/town PR gamble. I hated that feeling. It feels like crap to be a jester. So I left, took some time off, and decided I was going to try and become a player people enjoyed playing with because they played a good game. Because they made it fun and interesting.

 

So yeah, I think through what I do because now I actually play to win, rather than just to hang out.

 

 

~~Not a terrible post. Maybe inconsistant in that he accepted "this is normal for town!Thane" but not the same for Zander, but Thane's game had revved up drastically at this point whereas Zander remained consistant. At any rate Lenlo is fully aware that he's tunneling and doesn't back down from it when people start eyeing him funny. That's maybe townie? But Lenlo has also said in the past that he prefers scum over town so I don't expect him to just go out in a puff of smoke when people start to cast doubt on him.

 

#953 -- More acknowledging the possibility that Zander can be town and that many are town reading him but that Z doesn't sit right with him and he's not going to drop it. Also says "Fine. Zander, same question. Don't answer for him." and I am really unsure what question he's refering to.

 

#960 -- Asks Cory "why" in response to a series of posts discussing many players. ~~Again not really sure what he's asking here.

 

#1048 -- Quotes some Zander posts and criticizes him of stealing credit for other players' efforts.

 

#1049 -- Says people are only clearing Zander due to his strength of personality (seems to exclude me from that accusation but frustrated with everyone else who's town reading him.)

 

#1089

 

 

 

 

 

Well I had some posts queued up but I lost them so oh well. But I think the push on me is stupid but not scummy. I think it was silli that was saying they were expecting me to finally say something when I got back but I pretty clearly stated in my post that I wasn't going to actually be able to catch up until later. So now I'm gonna give you some thoughts.

 

I don't really set out with a concrete strategy, but the Lenlo thing was kinda just looking for actions. I wasn't entirely happy with Lenlo's reactions to it but it wasn't terrible and I have a bigger scum read anyways.

 

I think Zander is scum. I thought his opening post felt forced but some people said it was just him so I was like whatever. Someone else pointed this out (I forget who) but he's spent a lot of time just defending and backing people up. It's a pretty easy tactic to lay low and get on some people's good side. Zander said that he had been attacking people though, but it wasn't a high risk one. He just jumped on the popular Lenlo bandwagon. His reasoning wasn't good either, Lenlo imo was pretty clearly just using a mostly gut read on that person who had barely posted so I didn't get why Zander was making a big deal about it. It felt like a weak reason to jump on a popular bandwagon. I'm gonna Vote: Zander

Sorry Z, meant for you to respond to this one.

 

This is a concern that isnt coming from me, so maybe youll actually answer it instead of dancing around it with gifs and pictures.

 

 

~~Apparently this is what he meant by "same question" in #953.

 

#1176

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well I had some posts queued up but I lost them so oh well. But I think the push on me is stupid but not scummy. I think it was silli that was saying they were expecting me to finally say something when I got back but I pretty clearly stated in my post that I wasn't going to actually be able to catch up until later. So now I'm gonna give you some thoughts.

 

I don't really set out with a concrete strategy, but the Lenlo thing was kinda just looking for actions. I wasn't entirely happy with Lenlo's reactions to it but it wasn't terrible and I have a bigger scum read anyways.

 

I think Zander is scum. I thought his opening post felt forced but some people said it was just him so I was like whatever. Someone else pointed this out (I forget who) but he's spent a lot of time just defending and backing people up. It's a pretty easy tactic to lay low and get on some people's good side. Zander said that he had been attacking people though, but it wasn't a high risk one. He just jumped on the popular Lenlo bandwagon. His reasoning wasn't good either, Lenlo imo was pretty clearly just using a mostly gut read on that person who had barely posted so I didn't get why Zander was making a big deal about it. It felt like a weak reason to jump on a popular bandwagon. I'm gonna Vote: Zander

Sorry Z, meant for you to respond to this one.

 

This is a concern that isnt coming from me, so maybe youll actually answer it instead of dancing around it with gifs and pictures.

 

ok i did respond to this already.

 

 

visual aids are important though....

 

I will admit, you have been on point with your pictures/gifs. If anything, you put effort into those.

 

[v]Rack[/v]

 

He hasnt done or explained anything I had hoped he would, so im cool with this. Maybe enough votes will get him to actually talk.

 

 

 

~~Total wtf excuse to jump ship on the tunnel start a Rack push. Like, he'd only asked Rack one question (granted Rack's answer was piss poor) and he hadn't commented on anything Rack had said since. Rack seems to be the only person agreeing with him about Zander. I do not get this vote.

 

~~Lots of non-game-related fluff for a while, then:

 

#1350 -- Zander called Lenlo a bit hypocritical for scum reading Thane without a case when Lenlo had criticized Rack and Sili for scum reading Lenlo without a case. Lenlo responds with "And guess what? [Thane] doesn't have to take it seriously and he doesn't have to answer me. You'll notice I didn't say Sili or Rack were scum because of that, just that it was a poorly presented case." ~~I'm struggling to wrap my head around what Lenlo is saying here. Something like "because I didn't scum read Sili or Rack for doing this it's not scummy for me to do the same"? That's really avoiding the point. Zander's saying "dude if this is something that bothers you why are you doing it?"

 

#1355 -- Tab says she thinks Lenlo's frustration with Zander is honest, but is concerned that Lenlo is scum mates with Rack. Lenlo asks if she thinks Lenlo is scum mates with Rack ~~?? she explicitely said that~~ He turns the conversation back to Zander again, says Zander's fooling us all and he's a deep wolf, addresses Zander and says that neither of them are getting lynched so they might as well stop bickering, asks Zander who his top scum read besides Lenlo is. ~~Zander had already posted reads at this point, most recently just a page back in #1326. Makes me wonder if Lenlo is actually paying attention to his tunnel target.

 

#1357 -- Tells Zander that everyone knows he thinks Lenlo's a wolf and the points have been made, it's time to move on, accuses Zander of having no original content again.

 

#1360 -- Again tells Zander to give his scum reads. Asks Thane for the same. Says that after Zander Lenlo's wtl is Sooh and Rack. He doesn't like Rack because he thinks he tried to push a lynch on Zander and then back peddled ~~Because Zander is clearly town, right Lenlo? You aren't making sense bro. Also will be interesting to see how Lenlo treated the idea of Sooh as Rack's target at EoD.

 

#1362 -- Tells Tab that he's been trying to get the game focused but Zander keeps distracting us by turning discussion away from Rack and Pral and onto Lenlo. He says that Zander has no arguments and has been relying exclusively on force of personality.

 

#1366 -- Encourages lynching Rack.

 

#1369

 

 

 

 

I'm not trying to push you because I recognize it as futile today and that my time could be better spent elsewhere. I just have to hope at some point people break out of your spell and finally start seeing you for what you are. Maybe a cop view or something will hit you, idk.

 

I saw the list. Sooh, Rack, Myself and one other I can't remember. I want reasons though. And I don't believe that list was ordered either, other than me at the top. So I would like which of those you feel the most strongly about other than me and I would like a reason for that read.

 

 

~~Ok well, I suppose Zander's list didn't specify why, so I can understand why Lenlo's been pressing him for more. Would have been less confusing if he'd just been like "I saw your list but give me reasons" in the first place but I'll drop the thought that Lenlo wasn't paying attention.

 

#1391 -- Zander gave reasons, Lenlo says "Thanks Z" but offers no commentary. ~~To Lenlo's credit, Zander had Rack in the least scummy slot among his four scum reads. Would have been interesting to see how Lenlo reacted if Zander had put Rack second, but we will never know.

 

#1531 -- Asks Laine what she felt was not genuine about him, says he doesn't understand why people are clearing Zander.

 

#1539 -- "I feel I have looked at others :( " ~~I think this might be genuine but it's not really allignment indicative.

 

#1587

 

 

 

 

Your wrong there Shad. Multiple times ive tried to talk with Zander about things other than his baseless push on me, but he always brings it back to us. Always. Sometimes he shifts the thread back to us when no one even mentions me. Its horrible.

 

As for other reads, ive had plenty. I dunno why you dont remember them. Id love it if you ISOed me/we hashed this out sometime so we can lay it to rest.

 

I also have yet to see an argument saying Zander is town that isnt 99% meta dependent. So yeah.

 

 

~~"As for other reads, ive had plenty. I dunno why you dont remember them." I still don't remember them bro. I mean you've mentioned some in passing but you've been tuned into the Zander show relentlessly.

 

#1592 -- Starts a conversation with Thane, asks for his thoughts on Zander and Pral.

 

#1594 -- Says he didn't push Thane because it was just a gut read and he relies on evidence.

 

#1596 -- Accusses people of lock clearing Zander and not even trying to figure him out, says we're only clearing him because he has a strong personality.

 

#1598 -- Thanks Thane for input on Pral.

 

#1600 -- Says people are critical of Lenlo just because he's scum reading Zander. Asks Thane who he'll look at next if Rack flips scum.

 

#1806 -- Thinks Pral and Sooh are both ok to eat Rack's vig, implies he would rather the shot go on Zander though.

 

#1835

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pral or Sooh are both acceptable options. There's another but I know none of you would ever agree to it.

I'm listening, friend Lenlo

 

You know exactly who, and the moment I say his name this thread is gonna get dragged away from Rack and back to him.

 

I say Rack should shoot Pral or Sooh. Both were on the chopping block anyways, as we would probably CFD onto one of them if we were going to at all.

 

 

 

~~Weird post from Cory, like it wasn't obvious. (Or was that sarcasm?)

 

#1912 -- Doesn't like a gif Zander used.

 

#1932 -- "Just hammer him and end this farce of an EOD" irt Rack.

 

#1935 -- Thinks Zander is scum.

 

#1947

 

 

 

 

 

I have sincere doubts about Len, but I will vote there to get a flip.

Yeah, cause this post isn't questionable at all.

 

 

 

~~Not sure what to make of this but I don't hate it.

 

#1957

 

 

 

Just cause someone try to buddy up to me by sharing my opinion on Zander does not mean they are town.

 

Plenty of questions have been asked of him and none were answered satisfactoroly

 

 

~~Response to me pointing out that Rack, who Lenlo voted, shared a similar opinion on Zander. So at some point Lenlo went from treating Rack's Zander case as a mislynch push to treating it as buddying Lenlo.

 

#2032 -- Insists that everyone voting Lenlo is just sheeping Zander.

 

#2055 -- Says Zander is wrong.

 

#2098 -- Accuses Zander of misrepping how EoD went down.

 

#2124 -- Says the counterwagon on him was stupid and no one had a case on him, susses everyone who sussed him at EoD, complains about Zander. Points out that (dead town) Pral was on his side.

 

#2125 -- Asks who advocated shooting Pral over Sooh.

 

#2126 -- Thinks the counterwagon and Pral shot might be related--that scum fought to get Pral vigged and/or Lenlo lynched in order to save scum!Sooh.

 

#2131 -- Generally thinking scum are probably among people who tried to stop town!Rack from getting lynched after he claimed.

 

#2132 -- Thinks Zander is scum.

 

#2142 -- Thinks I'm town, asks what he can do to help me see it.

 

#2143 -- Thinks Zander is scum.

 

#2147 -- Thinks we should lynch Zander next. But beyond him concerned with Corlanna and Sooh/BFG.

 

#2203 -- Thinks meta is a bad means to read people. Says he'll ISO Sooh and her slot resolves BFG.

 

#2204 -- Updated reads list:

 

 

 

Town:

Clov

Yates

Lenlo

 

Null to Town:

Shad

Sili

Nomi

 

Null:

Hallia

Taborline

 

Null to Scum:

Dice

 

Scum:

Sooh/BFG

Zander

Corlanna

 

 

 

No movement upward from his old list except Nomi from null to town lean, BFG and Corlanna moved down. Thane missing. He later says Thane would be between Hallia and Nomi now. (So basically null.)

 

#2227 -- Accuses Cory of sheeping Zander, sticks to his current theory that scum!Cory joined scum!Zander on Lenlo to protect scum!Sooh from Rack's vig shot.

 

 

Lenlo I think you're just a wolf grasping at straws at this point

/fistpump

 

#2232 -- "Assuming I was scum for a minute, why would I need to grasp at straws? I wouldnt say im in a corner or that ive locked myself into a certain set of reads." Accuses the "Z squad" of trying to discredit him.

 

#2235 -- "I'd say I have used my own processes. ATM im pursuing a theory thats all mine. Ive changed my reads based on conversations I have had with people, not because enough people yelled at me telling me that person was town." Asks Cory to talk with him about someone other than Zander.

 

~~Aside from moving Nomi from null to slight town and Thane from scum to null, the movement has all been downward and dependent on the "Z squad" theory. So try again.

 

#2237 -- Says he's been trying to move on from Zander but Cory and Zander keep bringing it back up.

 

#2242

 

 

 

 

 

What are your conclusions about me, Lenlo?

This is the theory. Your scum. Heres why. The train on me didnt build really until Rack announced his role and his intention to shoot you. After that, immediately people tried to convince him to shoot someone else or to vote me. I believe those two lists of people, people pushing him to change his shot and the people pushing a lynch on me, coincide. Why would this happen? Because if your scum then scum either want Rack to shoot someone other than their teammate or to lynch someone other than their teammate.

 

This way they still get a town lynch without having to endanger a teammate. Are there townies on my push? Ofc, but I believe it to be scum lead. Thats why I am looking at you.

 

 

Cory, nice cop out. Now give me a real answer please. I would like a full list, with reasons. Youve never shirked those before as town, youve never worried about shooting from the hip, so for town!Cory this shouldnt be a problem for you.

 

 

 

~~I pointed out issues with this earlier, but let me show it again. Zander was already voting Lenlo long before any claiming happened. Nomi was town. Len's town reading me. So the only person who could have "bailed out" scum!Sooh here was Cory. And Sooh even went against the grain there by settling on Rack for the lynch. I mean you're welcome to think that scum!Cory tried to bail out scum!Sooh by voting Lenlo and encouraging a Pral vig, but if so he was acting alone and Sooh didn't really play along much. I find it very... misleading that Lenlo's projecting this as a coordinated move by the scum team. I mean stuff like "The train on me didnt build really until Rack announced his role and his intention to shoot you." Three people voted you after that: Nomi (who you actually moved from null to town afterwards and who is now confirmed v), me (consensus v who you're town reading), and Cory.

 

More interested in showing that you have a "theory" than in checking to see if it makes any sense?

 

#2244 -- Criticizes Cory for accusing Len of only focusing on Zander at one point but now blowing off his focus on others.

 

#2249 -- Sooh had said that gambling on Rack making a last minute change of target would be pretty high risk. Lenlo counters that the risk was worth it because it results in 5 dead town. (Rack, Pral, Nomi, Lenlo, and tomorrow night's NK.) ~~How does Rack shooting Pral guarantee that Lenlo will be "mislynched" today? I'm not the only villa in this game, right?

 

#2318 -- I had corrected Zander for an aspect of his case on Lenlo that I found problematic. (He had assumed that Lenlo was simply omgus scum reading everyone who sussed him. I said that if that was the case and Lenlo was scum, it would spew Cory Sooh and BFG town. I didn't think that was a good conclusion to jump to.) Lenlo seems to... not get my point, and argues that his scum reads are not pure omgus but rather based on a sound theory. He adds that scum!Sooh spews BFG town and vice versa. He goes on to add that Zander has never actually said why he thinks Lenlo is scummy, but rather just keeps shouting wolf.

 

#2325 -- Clov points out that based on Len's theory BFG is more likely to be scum if Sooh is, rather than being spewed town. Reason being BFG avoided the Rack wagon and (afterwards) said she'd have voted Len. Len responds by soft defending BFG, claiming that she could have voted Len when his wagon was still viable.

 

~~Len's reasoning here makes no sense.

1) Cory is his only scum read who voted Len during the event, so at least one other scum player necessarily did not vote him.

2) Part of Lenlo's theory is that Lenlo was set-up to be mislynched on D2. If this were the case, who more likely to be part of the plot than the person who said Lenlo should have been lynched immediately after sitting back and letting the Rack lynch go down?

 

#2327 -- Ammends that BFG didn't bother him because she admitted that Lenlo would have been a highly uninformed vote on her end. ~~Ok... I can't agree with the line of thinking that scum only vote town with firm conviction, but maybe Lenlo believes that.

 

#2333 -- Says his focus will be on Sooh D2.

 

#2457 -- Kicks off D2 voting Sooh and liking BFG's reads list.

 

#2466 -- Says Zander soft defended Sooh, more cause to suss her, reiterates that he caught 3 scum in Zander Sooh and Cory.

 

#2471 -- Sooh had said she's surprised Lenlo decided to go after her. Lenlo responds that if Sooh flips scum it will be the proof he needs to convince us that Zander's scum too. ~~Huh?

 

#2504 -- Says Cory is just calling people scum and not backing it up with anything.

 

#2510 -- Sooh had said she's not sure if Lenlo is a misguided townie or a raging wolf, Lenlo says there's nothing to show and he doesn't understand why Sooh would think he is either of those things. ~~I'll give you a hint Lenlo: she might think that if she's town.

 

#2537

 

 

 

 

In almost all worlds Lenlo is a wolf. I reviewed Ragnarok and he's just different there. Sticks with what he believes but compiles information from multiple sources to do so. Goes against the grain with someone being townread with frustration (Eldrick) rather than with compliance (Zander). He's not pushing outward in any reasonable way and almost everything prompting him this game is someone pushing on him.

 

But you probably won't listen to me because this is a clown show.

 

I feel your wrong. I also feel 1 game isn't enough to get a great read of someone.

 

In what world have I not been frustrated at you people for Z?

 

 

-- Tells Cory that 1 game is not enough to know how to read Lenlo and doesn't understand how Cory could possibly think that Lenlo is not frustrated with town for not following his lead on Zander. ~~Len's got a point here and Cory's comment is pretty weird.

 

#2581

 

 

 

 

Cory, I tried to talk to you but you brushed me off and basically said **** you, your scum. I tried to ask you questions and answer questions you asked me but you didnt ask any you just brushed me aside.

 

If what you say is true, prove it and talk to me without dismissing everything I say cause you think im scum.

 

 

~~Eeeeh this is another instance where Lenlo is talking about attempts at conversation that I never remember him making.

 

#2586 -- Thinks Zander is scum, thinks if Sooh is scum then Cory probably is. If Sooh is town then BFG and possibly Dice. He says he hasn't thought about the consequences of a town!Sooh much because he knows that if she flips that way he's going to be lynched. He also says that Cory/Hallia is w/v.

 

#2590

 

 

 

 

I continue to disagree on Z, I think he has all of you fooled. History will vindicate me, I know this to be true.

 

I like how Clov has played. Yates I feel good about, but as I said I could easily be biased by the fact that we see eye-to-eye on alot of subjects. Or atleast thats how I have seen it.

 

Shad and Sili havnt taken anything at just face value and run with it like a wolf could. Neither of them were under any obligation to ISO me, because it would be stupid easy to just vote and run the day down that way. No one would question it, and when I flipped town people would just go "He was scummy. Shoulda played better". But they didnt, they are taking the time to read and figure things out, just like they are with you. Shad I believe also acknowledged that I might not be completely crazy about Z.

 

I admittedly know nothing about how their wolf games are. I have played 1 game since coming back and only Sili was in it, and he was town. I decided to throw out most of my meta knowledge from before my hiatus because alot has probably changed.

 

 

"Shad I believe also acknowledged that I might not be completely crazy about Z." ~~I criticized one point that Zander made against you. It didn't impact my overall opinion.

 

#2603 -- Explains BFG/Dice if town!Sooh for a simple lack of better options. ~~Didn't he like Sooh's reads list?~~ But he hasn't bothered thinking about the possibility that Sooh is town, says he put all his eggs in a scum!Sooh/scum!Zander basket. Mentions that Tab could be scum in theory but he doesn't have much of a read at all on her. Clov had asked about Lenlo's thoughts on Thane because Lenlo forgot to mention him (again), Lenlo says he's in the middle. Lenlo liked their conversation and doesn't think he's scum but can't say he's strong town either. ~~Lenlo's been treating Thane oddly all game, from scum reading him for jack all to feeling good about him for a conversation that I for one didn't find particularly insightful to forgetting him on two consecutive reads lists to kind of sliding him around between town and null without adding new content to his reasons for the read.

 

#2649 -- Lenlo thinks Zander is scum.

 

 

 

 

And what I take from it:

 

Lenlo's game is pretty jam packed with double standards and selective memory. He does a lot of the things that he criticizes his scum reads for, and he gives his town reads a pass for the same. I don't see any sort of consistant thought process for how he makes his reads on D1, and he seems to overlook the posts that I would expect to have the most impact on them.

 

Thane's name could have been picked out of a hat to go into the scum pile. Rack earns one of his five townish slots, yet his explanation for the read is all negative points. Sooh and Zander remain his scum reads from page 14 clear to the present and in both cases I feel like Lenlo makes zero effort to try and adapt to new information. Any time Zander does the sort of things Lenlo is criticizing him for never doing, Lenlo just sort of ignores it and insists that town is all just being duped by his charming personality into letting him fly by with zero content. Thane moves up to a (town? null? doesn't exist?) read after a discussion which, to me at least, only clears Thane on meta that Lenlo doesn't possess. He barely even mentions Sooh again all day despite keeping her firmly at the bottom of the barrel.

 

Meanwhile, Rack sees a slow and steady drop from town to scum for his persistant lack of content, and fair enough there, but when Rack starts actually providing some content Lenlo shows little interest in engaging him. His reasoning for actually voting Rack and sticking to it is bewildering. He characterizes Rack's case on Zander as a failed push attempt, but how does that make any sense coming from someone who is 99% certain that Zander is scum?

 

And to top it all off, when Rack asks if he should vig Sooh (who Lenlo is scum reading) or Pral (who Lenlo was null on and who shares his opinion on Zander), he's fine with either. I think it's pretty interesting that Lenlo is totally cool with killing the only two players in the game who share his opinion on Zander.

 

I can see where a pretty simple scum objective fits the picture here: Scum!Lenlo locks in his pushes early and realizes that two of the three of them are quickly becoming consensus town. He doesn't want to be caught in two controversial reads, but he doesn't want to be seen as backpeddling either, so he gives one a pass for shallow reasons and tunnels the heck out of the other. Meanwhile, since his third scum read is getting a lot of negative attention, he can conveniently just ignore her altogether. For Rack, since he'd given him a TMI town read, he takes care to repeatedly mention that Rack is slipping down his POE into the scum pile due to lack of content. When Rack starts providing a bit of content, Lenlo sits back and lets town do the damage, then votes for the consensus reason. But he makes a bit of a slip out of character, because the reason implies that Lenlo is willing to consider that Zander might be town.

 

Then there's the post-flip 'theory'. Lenlo shows up with an idea that isn't bad in theory: if Sooh is scum, then the scum team may have pushed against the grain to prevent conditions which could kill her. It's not a bad idea at all, really: scum come out with two town dead, pro-town cred for bailing on a mislynch, and their full team intact. So I looked into it, saw that in practice it didn't quite work, and explained this to Lenlo. Instead of adapting or letting go, he sort of ignored it and pressed on expanding his theory with the original principles intact. He continues to insist that a Sooh scum flip incriminates Zander because Zander led a wagon on Lenlo to bail her out, but Zander had voted days before this was a possibility. The scum "team" was involved, but Sooh herself avoided Lenlo's train, and Lenlo is town reading me, so that only leaves Cory. Lenlo has avoided rethinking the situation in light of this.

 

Instead, he has pressed the theory further. He added that Sooh took the gamble of possibly being vigged because if Pral ate the bullet instead it would guarantee Lenlo's mislynch today. This makes no sense, and he didn't elaborate. He said that a scum flip on Sooh confirms BFG town and vice versa, but again this makes no sense. When Clov correctly observed that by Lenlo's reasoning scum!Sooh should incriminate scum!BFG, Lenlo argued against it because BFG didn't vote him. But at least one scum besides Sooh necessarily didn't vote him, and if scum were plotting his D2 mislynch all along, what could be more obvious towards that end than BFG popping in after the hammer to say she'd have lynched Lenlo? Lenlo gave a wishywash response that if BFG had been seriously pushing him she'd have spoken with more conviction, and he stuck to his theory. He also added that Cory and Hallia were likely w/v, which isn't a terrible observation by itself but interesting to keep in mind.

 

Again it's easy to see all of this from a scum angle. Scum!Lenlo took some D1 flack for tunnel vision, so he came up with a perfect excuse to put on the appearance of having a sound, robust theory to pursue. D2 is all about looking like he's trying to solve while pushing an agenda, and he accomplished that briefly. But he didn't want to let go of the good thing he had going when flaws were noted, so he ignored them, pressed on, and pursued apparent effort+opportunity by setting up a few w/v scenarios. Now when one of Cory/Hallia flips town he can push a lynch on the other. When one of Sooh/BFG flips town he can push a lynch on the other. And it all ties back into this grand "pro-town" master plan that proves to us all that he's trying hard to solve this game.

 

I think he's scum. And I think that if he flips scum there's a reasonable chance he's spewing team mates, because his "theory" from a scum angle makes the most sense if Sooh is a bus. She goes down, he thinks we'll assume it spews Lenlo and BFG clear town. He goes down, he thinks we'll assume it spews Sooh clear town. Would be my guess--not a bad trade in his mind when scum were up for a lunch today anyway.  The "gamble" scum!Sooh would have been taking at D1 EoD doesn't actually exist if Lenlo was scum too.  But we can start by lynching him and measure Sooh and BFG on their own merits.  Bussing is just a possibility to keep in mind post-flip.

 

[v]Lenlo[/v]

RTFM

[Taborline]

Wheres the scum claim in that? Its Town to Scum, and hes at the top?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Her hammer is too obviously wolfy to be agenda driven. Dont fall into that trap...

Entirely dependent on whether or not Lenlo is a wolf

 

 

This is what makes me think we should be trying to look elsewhere right now? Lenlo's resolution would give us a LOT of help, I think, but we can't afford to lose more town players.

 

 

What are you suggesting here?

 

 

 

I wonder if Lenlo is being pushed through as a town player, and am worried that other reads are too dependent on his flip. If he IS town, we aren't really in a position to lose him for that sake as we've lost too many town already.

 

 

Cool that's four.

 

 

Scum for wanting to be cautious about losing town players?

 

 

Your entire reason for copping out of lynching the scummiest player in this game is "anyone could be town.

 

 

I am TOO cautious of a player, it would seem.

[Lenlo]

?

[ReleaseTheEvil]

Thank you Shad, will give that a read later. 

[Yates]

I guess question two would be how confident are you that Clov would bodyguard Cory over anyone else?

I read the last few pages of his ISO so... pretty sure?

[Shad_]

I am also ashamed of all of you for not questioning Sili's posts towards the start of this day.

[Yates]

I am also ashamed of all of you for not questioning Sili's posts towards the start of this day.

Too tired.

Did not read.

[Zander?]

Maybe I'm wrong on dice. I'm almost at the Nomi conversation but I've literally never seen dice talk to someone like that as a wolf before. But maybe he's getting better.

I did see some progress in his wolf game recently, think it was British Monarchy but don't remember, was speccing

 

 

i thought Nomi came out looking much the better and Dice much worse from that exchange.

[ReleaseTheEvil]

 

I guess question two would be how confident are you that Clov would bodyguard Cory over anyone else?

I read the last few pages of his ISO so... pretty sure?

 

 

Bodyguard guards one every night and can't guard himself presumably? Still doesn't mean Clov wasn't targeted directly. IMO more likely that Mafia kills Clov over Cory 9 times out of 10. 

[Shad_]

 

I guess question two would be how confident are you that Clov would bodyguard Cory over anyone else?

I read the last few pages of his ISO so... pretty sure?

 

I think Clov BG'd me. Not going to say why and could be wrong. Ask me after the game if you're curious.

[Yates]

Bodyguard guards one every night and can't guard himself presumably?

LOL - if a bodyguard guards himself he dies in place of himself. Infinite death loop?

 

Still doesn't mean Clov wasn't targeted directly. IMO more likely that Mafia kills Clov over Cory 9 times out of 10.

Why 9/10? I agree that Clov was the likely target and I know my reasons. But what are yours?