Rand & Taim - Blackberry Patch

[JosephBurns]

I'm doing a re-read & I am currently on Crown of Swords.  At one point Taim sends a letter to Rand while Rand is in the mountains near Illian.  In the letter Taim explains to Rand about how recruitment of Asha'man are going.  He (Taim) says that he picked that blackberry bush himself and that it was small and thorny, but with a surprising amount of fruit.  

 

Just wondering where that blackberry bush was.  Could it have been Seanchan lands?  

 

I only originally read up to Crossroads of Twilight so maybe it is something that is discussed in one of the newer books, if so then there is no need to respond, as I'll get there soon.  Was curious if I missed something in an earlier book (From Crown of Swords).

 

Thank you.

 

Joseph - 

[MrMatrim]

I believe he was referring to the Two Rivers region.

[Sabio]

Yeah I always took it as Two Rivers.

[mb]

Only letter from Taim I recall was in Path of Daggers; not Crown of Swords.

 

As far as I recall, the books do not tell where the blueberry bush came from.  And as far as I recall, that scene was the only scene it was mentioned in.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Later on it's mentioned at least twice that taim gathered up the boys from the two rivers.

 

From the letter in PoD it could only be tar valon, from context within the letter, or the two rivers, from context within the series as a whole.

 

There's no logical way it could be TV, and later information makes it as clear as anything in these convoluted narratives that it's talking about the two rivers.

 

You can google for quotes, or just read the comments in Leigh butlers blog post about the PoD chapter that sums up the argument and the conclusion pretty well.

[mb]

The place would fit each of these::

-thorny blackberry bushes grew there

-the percentage of blackberries being about the same with those bushes and the mentioned bush

-Taim visited there

 

context to me seems to point to anywhere.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

You're being too literal.

 

It's the two rivers.

 

It's a metaphor for the surprisingly high percentage of powerful chanellers in the otherwise seemingly bare brambles of the two rivers.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Also blackberry bushes, or thorny brambles, are very different from blueberry bushes.

[mb]

edited the post.

 

do not recall Taim speaking metaphorically in other scenes.

 

though if it is metaphoric, there might be any number of interpretations.

 

did either author comment about this scene?  if so, please provide link.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

I'm not sure if either author commented. It's obvious enough not to need a comment.

 

If you want to read the arguments tar valon vs two rivers, search "wheel of time blackberry patch" and it will lead you to several discussions.

 

I think the one in Leigh butler's blog on Tor.com covers it best.

 

No one makes any reasonable argument for it being anything than either tar valon, which it logically cannot be, and the two rivers, which it logically must be.

 

Almost everyone speaks in metaphor occasionally, btw.

[Sabio]

Very unlikely Rand sent Taim out to literally pick a blackberry bush. 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

I'm kind of having a yen for blackberry brandy from this thread.... Though ya, I don't think that was what the dragon was seeking.

[jack of shadows]

@mrs. cindy gill,

"i don't think that what the dragon was seeking".

lol, no he wasn't,as i recall,rand is not much of a drinker himself,blackberry brandy or otherwise. lol.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Ya maybe pie though :)

 

But probably ashaman.

[Sabio]

Would be the mot unique reason someone went over to the shadow, "He gave me amnesty just so I could go out and pick blackberries for him.  So I was like dude the shadow has to be better then this."

[mb]

Recently read the Encyclopaedia summary of the chapter.  That page supports it being about getting male channelers from the Two Rivers.

 

My original thought was that Taim happened to find a literal blackberry bush at some place he visited; not that he was sent to look for the bush.

 

From what I recall, the recruiting was Taim's choice and Rand allowing him; not Rand's choice.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Yes, rand did not seem happy about it, but he knew it had to be done.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I find the subject interesting. WHY Taim chose to reveal that information. 

 

 

The most obvious answer would be Taim being cautious, so that Rand didn't find out later on and get angry at him. I think that was most definitely a part of it.

 

However, Taim didn't have to go personally, nor did he have to mention that he went personally. In fact, he hated the idea of recruiting himself, and left it to the 'lesser' ranks.  

 

I wonder if this was a deliberate move on his part to bait Rand.

 

As we later see, the Black Tower becomes a trap with the Dreamspike and all. We also know that Rand has a penchant for doing reckless things to protect the people he cares about. 

 

So I wonder if Taim mentioned that HE did it, that HE was the one who went to the Two Rivers and recruited the boys so that when all was revealed and it became clear that Taim was a Dreadlord/Foresaken, he hoped that Rand would be more inclined to try and sort it out himself because of the Two Rivers boys. 

 

It failed in the end, as Rand became one with himself and accepted the situation, but it could have gone very wrong for him. I can imagine Rand in his earlier days - LoC-PoD - rushing back to the Black Tower with a sense of duty. 

 

All speculation of course, but interesting nonetheless. 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

I think he sensed that the picking would be fine as well. The girls from the two rivers were mega powerful, so it stands to reason he'd find some very strong male chanellers for his evil schemes and such.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think he sensed that the picking would be fine as well. The girls from the two rivers were mega powerful, so it stands to reason he'd find some very strong male chanellers for his evil schemes and such.

 

Good point. He would want to try and influence them directly. 

 

Imagine if Rand was confronted with a bunch of Two Rivers Dreadlords! 

[mb]

Not entirely sure, but some of the channelers might have been recruited at Dumai's Wells (after the battle).

If there were, that also might have influenced the visit at Two Rivers.

[bigdoug1971]

He was talking about the Two Rivers.  Same as with Verin and Alanna bringing back the girls from Emonds Field where they were not only surprised at how many among their required age group, but the strength in all of them.

BTW, I don't think it's anything to do with growing up in an area were Ta'veren were localized, I think it was because the Two Rivers was such a back-woods area with no reason for Aes Sedai to visit in the past, that so many people had gone unnoticed.  Same reason there were no/very few Darkfriends there......No reason for outsiders to come a recruit.  You see how excited when Padan Fain came with news of the "Outside"?  That's because they rarely seen strangers in their neck of the woods. 

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

The amount and talent of the Two Rivers folk is disproportionate, it didn't matter that no Aes Sedai had been there. Moiraine and Verin were surprised at the relative proportion of talent. They believe that their ancestry of Manetheren and the strength of the 'Old Blood' that runs in the Two Rivers is the reason that they had such talent there.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Same as with the six toed cats