What's wrong with Rand's eyes?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Read my first post, buddy. I proposed that Rand isn't drawing the source from the DO at all.

 

Then you're sillier than I thought. Saa only come from using the True Power, which is only drawn from the Dark One.

 

Now, I ask you..if the Dark One's champion can draw the source directly from the Dark one, isn't it logical that that Creator's champion could draw the source directly from the Creator?

 

No. Thats assuming the Dark One and Creator operate the same way, which they obviously don't. The True Source, split into saidin and saidar, is what the Creator provided. That is what Rand uses, and that does not cause the appearance of saa.

 

Unless you think he's been using a different Power the whole time, without knowing it? And all the other male channelers sense it, but think it's saidin?

 

To my mind, I can't rational a quickly thrown weave of fire equalling that kind that of unHealable damage.

 

And yet, the evidence of permanent damage to his eyes is preserved in the icon of the Fisher, and the only other wound preserved in a like fashion is the one in his side.

 

Also, what of Perrin's Wolf Dream of Rand dressed in rags with a bandage over his eyes? Exactly like the Fisher icon.

 

And you still haven't addressed this: if they were there before the fireball, why did no one see them? Why did Nynaeve not detect the damage when she delved him before? Why would mystical "good side saa" appear at exactly the moment when a fireball exploded within feet of his face?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh yes. Also, if there is some kind of special Power the Dragon can draw from the Creator, why didn't Lews Therin know about it? He was as much the Light's champion as Rand. He knew about the Dark One's True Power. And how has Rand been channeling this mysterious Power without even knowing it?

[specialj8d]

This will be my final post on this thread.

 

 

First of all, Willis, your personal attacks are not appropriate. I have proposed THEORIES. Until the series has finished, there's no way to know what the true facts are, and I think everyone would appreciate you not resorting to ridicule when they offer up possible ideas.

 

As for the idea that the power could be drawn directly from the Creator being silly..why? Just because something has not happened yet, does not mean it cannot happen. Unless you're RJ in disguise, you really cannot say that it's impossible for the source to be drawn directly from the Creator, as it can be drawn from the DO.

 

You keep mentioning the chess-like game in support of your theories. In that game, the obvious opponents are the DO and the Creator. That indicates, to me, that they're both working with the same capabilities.

That the creator does not influence events the same way as the DO is by CHOICE.

 

As Nynaeve not detecting the Saa prior to the fireball, my idea is this:

 

It's specifically stated that only continued and consistant use of the True Power results in ANY Saa at all. Due to Rand's decreased channeling since his sickness, it seems to me that the time between the balefire incident in Shadow Logeth with Sammael and the Semihage scene in KOD. Nynaeve did not detect the Saa before because this is their first appearance.

 

Again- these are just theories. We haven't seen Rand channel again since the appearance of those black flecks, and if they're not apparent in any future channeling, I'll laugh and withdraw my proposal. If, however, they do return.. you really owe me an apology for your behavior.

[Trib4l]

Good news to my ears.

 

Frankly, RAW has been patient and polite in every one of his responses thus far. You have been condescending and rude to him. If anyone should be apologizing - it's you. RAW may get irritating sometimes with his persistence, but in this case not only is he right - he's been a choir boy in his presentation.

 

Your theories are not original. They have been discussed and dismissed on this board several times. Besides which - if black flecks appearing in vision were immediate and irrefutable proof of saa, then Mat must also have been using the TP. (Haha - I said TP.) The ONLY way people get saa is from using the TP.

 

RAW provided the same evidence I would have. Saa are visible to other people, as evidenced by Moggy's reaction to Moridin just prior to the mindtrap. Saa are also noticeable to the person that has them, but do not impede vision, as supported by the quote that RAW posted.

 

Rand is only touching saidin. No power from the Creator, and no TP via his apparent link with Moridin. There's a big difference between "shimmering" and "dancing", which is how Mat and Rand's black flecks have been described and the steady horizontal stream of black flecks described in Moridin POV's.

 

You called RJ's descriptions into play - what about those descriptions seems remotely similar besides "black flecks".

 

Go ahead and do your hit-and-run. You have yet to provide any evidence that supports your view, while RAW has provided direct references. You've insulted people and blamed them for it, and now you're stomping off like an angry child and telling us it's our fault?

 

Don't let the e-door hit you in the bad place on the way out.

[Hannah Banana]

Wow. I think this round has to go to RAW, when the other opponent suddenly withdraws, claiming that RAW is being a big meany.

 

In any case, RAW is right. His first illustation of the logical fallacy you commited was spot-on, and you never refuted it, other than to say that it was wrong--not a very convincing argument.

 

I disagree with your opinion that every word in RJ's writing has significance. We've all been burned by his elaborate and suspicious red herrings before (whether or not they were actually red herrings, or the author changing his mind is debatable). Taimandred being a prime example.

 

RJ also loves foreshadowing, and we've seen no hints that there is some mysterious good TP to balance the naughty TP of the Dark One. There is the One Power. The Creator is taking a more backseat approach to this conflict, in any case. It seems against "His" nature to suddenly decide to create his own TP and let Rand use it.

 

I also agree that the black flecks "shimmering" is more a good description of the after effect of a bright light exploding in your eyes than the descriptions of saa, which sail across in a straight line.

 

So, yes, the basis of the all black flecks = saa is only an opinion, and one that many of us don't share, not just RAW.

 

Furthermore, the saa ONLY appear after one has drawn on the TP (ha, Trib4l, that IS funny) "much more than once" and can you furnish any evidence that Rand has done so. If we're to believe that Rand has been channeling it enough to earn saa, there MUST be evidence for us to have seen all along, and not just debatably described black flecks.

[Tenshin_Xo]

There are a few points that the Saa theory completely overlooks.

 

A) the black flecks are not in his eyes, they are in his vision.

 

B) Nynaeve was looking right at Rand, and so presumably anyone else within eyeshot. I would think that anyone seeing a black spot move from left to right between Rand's eyes would say something to the effect of "What the hell?!?"

 

Follow up on B) someone will undoubtedly say "It could be no-one was looking right at Rand." Lets follow that up. Here we have the single most important person in the world and they just had thier hand blown off, and a massive explosion within 3 ft of thier face. I guarantee everyone in his party is doing 1 of 2 things. 1) looking at and helping him. 2) killing or imprisoning anything within sight that so much as sneezes. Anyone looking at him ie Nynaeve would see the Saa, no need to 'detect' them, since they are as plain to see as the color of his eyes.

 

There were no Saa, no one saw them, there is no evidence for them. Occam's razor would indicate either the concussive force, heat, or blinding brilliance of the blast caused the damage to his eyes. Seeing (forgive the pun), as how we know without doubt there was a blast, and that said blast can cause plenty of bodily harm, why follow conjecture about a link to Moridin we know next to nothing about to justify an effect we already have explained.

[Barnabas]

geez, sorry i missed all the fun, its funny, i posted that the "Saa" obscured rands vision right at the start but apparently specialj8d didnt notice. however, and i apologise going from memory, i believe Faile also was channeling the TP, initiated by a slap to the face.....well, she saw black flecks anyway:D

[Zardi]

I know the person you all were arguing with is gone, but I still have to respond anyway :P

 

The fact is, they're black flecks in someone's eyes. That's fairly freaking specific. It's not at all the generalization you'd like to make it out to be.

You...yes, you!...can experience this phenomenon right from the comfort of your very own home. Go stare at a light bulb for a few seconds. (A light bulb, NOT the sun. Staring at the sun can blind you. You have been warned.) Most light bulbs have a yellow-ish hue, so once you look away from the bulb, you will see dark purple spots shimmering in your vision, which eventually fade to black before disappearing completely. Notice that purple and yellow are opposite one another on the color wheel. This phenomenon is called an afterimage. No, you have not started channeling the True Power. You do not have the saa.

 

Now, consider how much brighter a fireball in your face would be than your average household bulb. The afterimage of an almost-white fireball will be almost black, and will last longer than that of a light bulb. That's all Rand saw.

 

So, why would RJ even put that in there? The short answer is: for realism. Also, it is well known that bright light can damage the eyes. Semi's fireball was not only very bright, but exploded arm's length from Rand's face, produced a huge amount of explosive force, and must have been extremely hot. All of that together damaged his eyes. The fact that the afterimage lasts so long for Rand just emphasizes how bright, hot, and close that fireball was.

[Barnabas]

*drops to knees* thankyou:D for being able to clearly put what ive tried to say/have thought

[kobra_khan69]

I know the person you all were arguing with is gone' date=' but I still have to respond anyway :P

 

The fact is, they're black flecks in someone's eyes. That's fairly freaking specific. It's not at all the generalization you'd like to make it out to be.

You...yes, you!...can experience this phenomenon right from the comfort of your very own home. Go stare at a light bulb for a few seconds. (A light bulb, NOT the sun. Staring at the sun can blind you. You have been warned.) Most light bulbs have a yellow-ish hue, so once you look away from the bulb, you will see dark purple spots shimmering in your vision, which eventually fade to black before disappearing completely. Notice that purple and yellow are opposite one another on the color wheel. This phenomenon is called an afterimage. No, you have not started channeling the True Power. You do not have the saa.

 

Now, consider how much brighter a fireball in your face would be than your average household bulb. The afterimage of an almost-white fireball will be almost black, and will last longer than that of a light bulb. That's all Rand saw.

 

So, why would RJ even put that in there? The short answer is: for realism. Also, it is well known that bright light can damage the eyes. Semi's fireball was not only very bright, but exploded arm's length from Rand's face, produced a huge amount of explosive force, and must have been extremely hot. All of that together damaged his eyes. The fact that the afterimage lasts so long for Rand just emphasizes how bright, hot, and close that fireball was.

 

 

I'm not gone I am just not up for arguing over this. Its pointless to argue with people who most likely won't agree with you no matter what you say so I am sitting back and reading. I have my thoughts, you have yours, I'm content to leave it at that.

[Tenshin_Xo]

If I were to outline everytime a character has black specks in thier vision, and non-saa explainations out number saa explainations would you be convinced?

 

As I understand it your main argument is that since saa are described as black specks all black specks must be saa. If I can prove that non-TP users have had black specks in thier sight more often than TP users have would you accept that black specks could be something other than saa? It seems like you are the one who is unwilling to consider other peoples' arguments, so I am asking you now what would you need to convince you the problems with Rand's sight are not Saa?

[Zardi]

I'm not gone I am just not up for arguing over this. Its pointless to argue with people who most likely won't agree with you no matter what you say so I am sitting back and reading. I have my thoughts, you have yours, I'm content to leave it at that.

We haven't agreed with you because you haven't presented a convincing argument. Believe me, we've all heard your arguments numerous times before from many other people. They are easily refuted. You haven't really pointed out anything you see wrong with our arguments, you just keep saying that since the saa are described as black specks, these black specks must also be saa.

 

Seriously...go try the light bulb thing. It's just physics. You can't make this stuff up.

[Luckers]

someone asked at onestage why the fireball only destroyed Rand's hand, and didn't get the rest of him, and i dont think anyone answered. The answer is that the fireball did not hit Rand, it hit the dragon scepter, which Rand had actually let go of. The scepter itself was destroyed, and Rand's hand was badly damaged, but that little bit of distance kept the damage minimal (relatively speaking).

 

As for the rest... wow i hate the devine power argument. I mean aside from the sheer implausibility of RJ introducing such a dues ex machina so late in the story, it would completely invalidate all the effort Rand has put into cleansing saidin. If Rand could simply have channeled some alternative untainted source... I mean really.

 

Robert pretty much summed up the rest.

[Jellybelly]

In addition to that, I think it is pretty damn obvious that the One Power is the essence of the Creator.