the Tower Split; what would you choose

[Azrayne]

Either way :p

[Barid Bel Medar]

There are Greens stationed along the Blightborder and each of the borderland nations have an Aes Sedai advisor. The Greens do participate. They never made a full scale assault or anything because it is generally thought impossible to invade the Blight. 

 

They have Greens there, albeit not in the numbers they wish. That is something that frustrates the Aes Sedai as well, but they don't think like you. 

 

The Aes Sedai believe themselves the only thing that stands against the Shadow and the people. Not in a literal sense, but Tar Valon and the institution of the Tower. They see themselves as the last Bastion of the Light. That's the whole point, that the once great Aes Sedai have fallen so low. They managed to save the world from the Breaking, but over 3000 years they have faded. 

 

As an institution the White Tower was primarily built to preserve what was left of the original Aes Sedai. 

 

Ishamael did very well in his time spun out to wear down the White Tower. He initiated the Trolloc Wars, the time when the Aes Sedai had recovered reasonably well - he sent the armies of the blight south and destroyed half of the world. 1000 years later the Aes Sedai regained a relatively respectable position before he manipulated Hawkwing who laid siege to Tar Valon.  

 

They have not been in a perpetual state of stasis. The Shadow and Black has been actively eroding the White Tower for 3000 years. When the books start, the Aes Sedai are at the lowest point in known history. They have been ground down to the point where all they can do is hold the White Tower together, until it is broken completely as we witness. 

 

The facts are, the Aes Sedai do not have the numbers to do anything meaningful in the world any more. Their only hope is to hold on to the Tower to hold the Shadow at bay. 

 

If the White Tower fell at any point before Rand came along, the world would have been doomed. The White Tower was a shield against the Shadow. 

 

Saving a few lives sacrificing Aes Sedai along the Blightborder over 1000 years after Hawkwing's Empire would have left them destitute and defenceless. They would have respect, but no power, and the only thing stopping the Shadow from mounting a full scale invasion was the threat of the White Tower striking back while the Forsaken and the DO were trapped. 

 

Even afterwards the Shadow goes to great lengths to ensure the White Tower is thoroughly destroyed. Mesaana initiates the split, Aran'gar stays with the rebels and the Black Ajah on both sides make sure to keep both sides at odds. Then when the Last Battle arrives, Demandred sets the biggest and strongest trap for the Aes Sedai. 

 

Frankly, it was all they could do to remain an organized institution for that long. The White Tower, Tar Valon as a symbol meant more than any hospital or aid. The people didn't like it, but it was only the Aes Sedai's presence that kept the Shadow at bay for so long. They prioritised the White Tower itself believing it necessary. Nobody is saying they were correct, or made the best decisions, but it wasn't absent-mindedness and idiocy behind it. It was making decisions out of the situation that had gotten progressively worse for 3000 years.  

 

The point of difference isn't that people think the WoT or Aes Sedai is perfect. Nobody thinks that. Everyone is well aware of the Tower's faults. It is the fact that their faults aren't dismissed as stupid and unrealistic because we could think of a better plan or because they didn't do a few specific things that seems like a good idea. People understand that it was meant to be flawed, and while it is not perfectly explained, the general decline of the Aes Sedai into seclusion and incompetence is reasonable within the context of the world and 3000 years of history attached to the Tower. They made poor decisions, but their reasons are evident in most cases, even if we disagree or can see in hindsight it was stupid. There are some inconsistencies, but not to the point that it becomes foolishly unrealistic. 

 

They fell, were broken, then re-forged. But they did not fail the world completely. 

[Azrayne]

There are Greens stationed along the Blightborder and each of the borderland nations have an Aes Sedai advisor. The Greens do participate. They never made a full scale assault or anything because it is generally thought impossible to invade the Blight. They have Greens there, albeit not in the numbers they wish.

 

 

Do you have any sources on this (other than the advisor thing, but that's hardly unique to the Borderlands)? I've never seen anything which suggests that there are Greens stationed on the Blightborder in an organized fashion, but my memory of the second half of the series is a little foggy so if there's something in there to contradict me, post it. I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

 

but they don't think like you. 

 

They should :p But seriously, my point is that the way they think (or don't think, often about things which would be obvious to anyone with half a brain) is why they've degraded so much.

 

 

The Aes Sedai believe themselves the only thing that stands against the Shadow and the people. Not in a literal sense, but Tar Valon and the institution of the Tower. They see themselves as the last Bastion of the Light. That's the whole point, that the once great Aes Sedai have fallen so low. They managed to save the world from the Breaking, but over 3000 years they have faded. 

 

They see themselves that way, and in some ways they are correct - I'm sure the world would be worse off still if the Tower didn't exist. It's pointed out quite rightly in one of the books that without the Aes Sedai civilization might well have forgotten the the AoL, the War of Power, the Breaking and the threat of the Shadow. Not to mention the state the world would be in with absolutely no centralized organization and control of channelers (as poor as they are at that job in some respects). And I'm sure a lot of other knowledge would have been lost if not for the Browns, that the world political stage would be in a worse shape if not for the Greys and that the Trolloc Wars would have been lost entirely if not for the Tower in general and the Greens of the era specifically. I'm not just dumping on the Tower randomly.

 

The problem is that the rest of the world doesn't see them that way, they see the negative behavior, the "distasteful but necessary (although rarely explained to onlookers)" behavior, but almost never the positive behavior. and that's in large part because in many ways they don't act in a manner which asserts that image and reflects positively on the Tower as an institution. The most overt and egregious example being the way they've drawn in on themselves and away from the populace and the way the Yellow and Green Ajahs in particular no-longer perform their chosen roles in an organized fashion which reflects positive on the White Tower. There's no good press to cancel out the bad press, not even an effort, and a lot of straight up stupid stuff even a moron could point out like not actively recruiting and so leaving thousands of potential Aes Sedai every year to not only not fulfil their potential, but risk a 3/4 chance of suffering an agonizing death. Everything else aside, that borders on unforgivable, all because "they want novices to come to them."

 

 

As an institution the White Tower was primarily built to preserve what was left of the original Aes Sedai. 

 

 

And while they do a great job in some ways, they do a terrible job in others (I highly doubt people died from the Spark in the AoL).

 

Ishamael did very well in his time spun out to wear down the White Tower. He initiated the Trolloc Wars, the time when the Aes Sedai had recovered reasonably well - he sent the armies of the blight south and destroyed half of the world. 1000 years later the Aes Sedai regained a relatively respectable position before he manipulated Hawkwing who laid siege to Tar Valon.

 

You're right about the Trolloc Wars, Ishamael did a pretty good job at messing things up there. But the Light won in the end. It's the bold part I want to address, because they didn't spend those next 1000 years regaining a relatively respectable position. In fact all of the evidence suggests that this is where the biggest backsliding occured since the Breaking, but unlike the Breaking there's no excuse for it. We know that it was somewhere between the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing that the Aes Sedai had to start using the Oath Rod, suggesting strongly that this is the period in which public respect and trust of Aes Sedai started to go downhill (and without them the Light would have lost, the Greens were right there the whole way, fighting it out, countering the Dreadlords, so they would have gained some major kudos from that, what happened to make them go from the respected figures and world leaders they were in the era of the Ten Nations, to war heroes in the Trolloc wars, to all of a sudden having to bind themselves against Murder and Lying. I mean I have to reiterate that you can't imagine for a second that that is a step the Aes Sedai took without the most utmost desperation, so some huge event or some major shift in the pattern of Aes Sedai behavior lost them their reputation from pre-Trolloc Wars, lost them their respect from fighting back the Shadow and saving the world and threw them in the complete opposite direction. Not only to the point of having to bind themselves, but to the point that when Ishamael was next spun out, he was able to capitalize on this massive distrust of Aes Sedai to throw the world in chaos again simply by manipulating Hawkwing and his inbuilt distrust of Aes Sedai.

 

 

They have not been in a perpetual state of stasis. The Shadow and Black has been actively eroding the White Tower for 3000 years.

 

You're right, they haven't been in stasis and they have been allowing outside forces to erode away at them. That's ineveitable, there's no way (well at the least, not easily, that would be a whole other debate in itself) they could completely immunize themselves against the insidious influence of the Shadow. The question is, why did they sit by an do nothing as this erosion took place? What I've been suggesting is the exact things that would have occured to a strong and sensible leader with an even vaguely realistic grasp of the situation. Put the Ajahs to visible work for the people, the Tower and the Light, be seen actively working against both the Shadow and more mundane forces which ruin lives. Build up a positive image to counteract the negative. Rebuild the Tower's numbers. Be seen to be caring and approachable, not cold, manipulative and aloof. Image is generated by action, and the Tower's image degraded because of the ways they acted and the actions they didn't take. What I've suggested is just the immediately obvious thing. Having whole Ajahs sit around the White Tower, lazing in luxury, pursuing their own ends or stirring up trouble instead of putting their training and stipend to work is stupid. Not actively helping the general populace so you're seen as a positive force in the world to be trusted and respected instead of a mysterious or unknown one to be feared and hated is stupid. Not exposing the people to the OP in a positive context so they understand that it's a tool which can be used for good, not something to be feared or a form of blasphemy, is stupid. Letting thousands of potential Aes Sedai die each year is moronically stupid.

 

All of that is just as stupid as not having the Browns preserve knowledge would have been - or not having the Greys mediate world politics to maintain peace and stability, or not keeping the memory of the Shadow alive, or not having the Reds protect the world from men with the spark and men with the spark from themselves. Letting women with the Spark die instead of bringing them to the Tower and training them as Sisters is as stupid as almost all of that combined. It makes no sense that Egwene is the first Aes Sedai in the world to see that the sky is blue and that the sun rises in the East.

 

If the White Tower fell at any point before Rand came along, the world would have been doomed. The White Tower was a shield against the Shadow. 

 

How? They kept the memory of the DO etc. alive, but other than that, they seem more concerned with maintaining their power over global politics than anything much else.

 

Saving a few lives sacrificing Aes Sedai along the Blightborder over 1000 years after Hawkwing's Empire would have left them destitute and defenceless.

 

Millions of lives is not "a few," and that's how many they would have saved over the centuries. And almost as importantly, been remembered saving. By failing to actively participate in the world they did as much to destroy their image, their mission and the Tower itself as any effort from the Shadow.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about "destitute and defenseless"? I never suggested they send the entire Green Ajah to the Borderlands, or launch an attack to try and push the Blight back. Just that they rotate a decent portion of of the Greens and their Warders (you know, the sisters and men who specifically nominated themselves to fight the Shadow) onto active service on the Blightborder at any one time.

 

They would have respect, but no power, and the only thing stopping the Shadow from mounting a full scale invasion was the threat of the White Tower striking back while the Forsaken and the DO were trapped. 

 

That makes no sense. Firstly, they would still have plenty of power - all of the other sisters in residence (which would be more than the measely number they have when the series opens), their Warders, the Tower Guard and the aid of their allied nations. You think the world would sit back if Tar Valon was attacked? Some nations sure, others would be too far to help, but at the least I'd imagine they'd have the full force of Andor's military behind them, and absolutely everything the Borderland's nations feel they can spare - and of course they have to get through the Borderlands (now an even more difficult task with the active and organized presence of Green sisters) to get to the White Tower, a task achieved only once, during the Trolloc Wars under the active leadership of Ishamael and later the Dreadlords. Outside of that 300 year period, the Blight has been as I described in my last big post:

 

"What we're talking about isn't an active war, it's a border between a dangerous, corrupt environment populated by violent, but stupid and selfish, genetically engineered monsters with no central leadership (excluding the Trolloc Wars), and the rest of Civilization. If the Shadow could push further south, they would do so just by instinct, but they lack the combination of leadership, organization and numbers to do so. Other than rare and specific incursions generally caused by weakness in the human defenses caused by specific events, it's bands of Trollocs lead by the Myrddraal they occasionally give birth to who try to cross the border to kill, destroy, kidnap and rape on pure instinct. There's no centralized leadership, little if any intercommunication. All they have going for them is their strength, brutality, numbers and the skill and apparently inborn leadership abilities of the Myrddraal.

 

This is not a situation where you have one set of generals and leaders planning against another, matching strategies and weapons, and the introduction of organized Green Aes Sedai presence wouldn't be an attempt to push the Blight back and take Shayol Ghul, it would be an attempt to minimize the damage that the raiding parties cause (and that's what they are, barring aforementioned rare occasions, they aren't planned incursions with a purpose organized by a leadership which would alter their strategy if they became less effective, they're an instinctive, barely planned flood towards where the humans which the Shadowspawn are genetically programmed to kill are), to save lives both by ending battles faster and sparing soldiers from dying and by detecting and catching these raiding parties faster and preventing them from destroying their targets and killing the population, an attempt to be seen doing so and thereby being recognized as defenders of humanity and enemies of the Shadow, an attempt to put the Green Ajah to work earning their keep and living up to their name instead of having them lazing around the White Tower wasting the training and money given to them by the Tower. It's a win/win/win situation (except for the raiding parties I guess)."

 

How on earth would the White Tower being short a portion of the Green Ajah suddenly leave the Tower itself open to invasion from the Shadow?

 

 

 

Even afterwards the Shadow goes to great lengths to ensure the White Tower is thoroughly destroyed. Mesaana initiates the split, Aran'gar stays with the rebels and the Black Ajah on both sides make sure to keep both sides at odds. Then when the Last Battle arrives, Demandred sets the biggest and strongest trap for the Aes Sedai. 

 

We're skipping way forward here. This whole debate is about the time period preceeding the books.  Obviously by then it's too late, The WT is in the position it's in, what I'm arguing is that it should never have ended up in that position. The WT should have been a much more visible and active force in the world by the time we hit that timeframe.

 

 

Frankly, it was all they could do to remain an organized institution for that long. The White Tower, Tar Valon as a symbol meant more than any hospital or aid.

No, it meant less. It meant manipulation, distrust, suspicion. When even a farmer in the backwater of the world knows that Aes Sedai aren't to be trusted, when nations outlaw their presence or channeling, when organizations exist which spend most of their time trying to kill Aes Sedai for being "darkfriend witches," then they obviously have a major PR problem, and as we see in the books, this PR problem significantly inhibits their ability to fulfil their role and aid the world. It should never have developed, and even if it did, it should have been addressed centuries ago, if not earlier. If the Oaths weren't a wake up call, Hawkwing sure as hell should have been.

 

 

 

The point of difference isn't that people think the WoT or Aes Sedai is perfect. Nobody thinks that. Everyone is well aware of the Tower's faults. It is the fact that their faults aren't dismissed as stupid and unrealistic because we could think of a better plan or because they didn't do a few specific things that seems like a good idea. People understand that it was meant to be flawed, and while it is not perfectly explained, the general decline of the Aes Sedai into seclusion and incompetence is reasonable within the context of the world and 3000 years of history attached to the Tower. They made poor decisions, but their reasons are evident in most cases, even if we disagree or can see in hindsight it was stupid. There are some inconsistencies, but not to the point that it becomes foolishly unrealistic. 

 

 

I guess we just have very different ideas of what "foolishly unrealistic" is. Ah well.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Moiraine mentions it in the Eye of the World as well as the borderlanders, although Fal Dara hadn't received any Aes Sedai in a while. 

 

Brandon also said something on the subject: 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: 2010

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

TEREZ (11 AUGUST 2010)

Are there actually Warders and Aes Sedai guarding the Blight at all times? Or is that another TEOTWism?

BRANDON SANDERSON (11 AUGUST 2010)

Well, there are Aes Sedai and Warders staying with most Borderlander monarchs.

BRANDON SANDERSON

I would say that yes, they are up there guarding. There are a disproportionate number, it seems, at times.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Morgase had one Aes Sedai, as did Berelain, to give advice. Borderlanders often have more.

 

2) Keep in mind that the slide lasted 3000 years. It would not be something felt immediately by the Aes Sedai, it would be a gradual process that they were probably not fully aware of. Rome didn't notice it's stagnation for hundreds of years, and was caught unaware when finally they were invaded. The Oaths weren't all instigated at the same time. All we know is that the 3 came into being in the space of 1000 years, at separate times.

 

However, the reason for a massive slide in reputation after the Trolloc Wars (which lasted some 200 years, so generations of seeing war) is apparent. While the Aes Sedai did indeed do great things, the Dreadlords were a massive blow to respect. Since the Breaking, the world hadn't seen real war with the OP, nor had they seen channelers fighting for the DO in any great quantity. 

 

When you see hundreds of Black Ajah betray the Light and join up with Trollocs and insane men then see the destruction the OP can create, you start looking at the Aes Sedai and wondering. 

 

The Oaths can be said to be a 'wake-up' call, an attempt to restore their reputation. People didn't trust Aes Sedai, they remember the Trolloc Wars and what power the Aes Sedai have. So they bind themselves against Violence towards anyone from the Light = to reassure people they won't go dreadlord on everyone. To not speak a word untrue = to reassure people they can't lie and fake it, then go dreadlord on you. (I would say this one was introduced because the Aes Sedai figured out that Black Ajah was getting around the oaths somehow, and was an attempt to counter it. 

 

As to why they didn't do what Egwene did earlier. It took literally the end of the world looming to happen. The only way to do it was by brute force and stark reality to do so. The Amyrlin would have been deposed if she tried. Egwene got away with it because of the times and the shock of everything. 

 

While we are looking at the Oaths, I look at it as a very selfless and actually quite noble thing to do. The sacrifice to dignity and basic freedoms they made to try and restore good faith. Look at it like this:Try even mentioning any infringement of rights - much less a binding oath - in America, you will get shot down quite quickly. I'm sure many would rather die and let the world burn than give up some of those things. The Aes Sedai put the world before their own well-being in that act at least, if not in all the things they ever did.

 

 

Having said that, I'm sure that there have been Aes Sedai that would have agreed with you on things. You have ones like Moiraine, Verin or Cadsuane who are all considered radical. They know what's up. I'm sure thousands of Aes Sedai have had ideas similar, but a person doesn't go into parliament or congress and say "hey guys, it's obvious we need to do this, this and this.... Get on it." That's just not how things work, unless you are a dictator. There are some Amyrlin's in Egwene's study that she gets ideas off. However, for every good leader, you are almost guaranteed 5 bad ones. They likely tried to fix things, but one can only do so much, and people in general don't like change, Aes Sedai least of all.  Just look at topics like climate change. Rarely in history has anyone pulled off massive changes to an entire society in one lifetime. That's without an evil overlord and his minions sabotaging us. (This is why it happened on an extended scale. The DO and co. kept knocking progress backwards. We have had the luck of not being subject to an evil overlord.) 

 

 

As for the rest, the ideas you have are good, I'm not doubting that, but you are looking at it from an idealistic view in hindsight that doesn't reflect reality. 

 

Study history and you will see that it's not only possible, but very similar things happened in real life. You don't even need to look at history. Just look at the state of the world and some of the governing bodies, particularly the UN. I'd like to see someone get the UN to fix the obvious problems with their organization and the world. It just doesn't happen. 

 

The Tower isn't ruled by a dictator, the Amyrlin can only do so much, and then it's the Hall debating what's in their own interests in the short term, as it has ever been in a democratic nation. 

 

 

I admit I like your faith in humanity a bit better than mine though

[Azrayne]

Yeah I've read that interview with BS, it seemed a bit wishy washy, and the part about Borderland rulers having more than one AS was discredited from the text iirc. It was a while back. But it's good to know that at least someone considered it and asked.

 

I guess we just have different perspectives on human behavior and the evolution of societies and organizations. You look at the Oaths and see a display of dedication, I look at them and see a desperate move that should never have been necessary. You look at the fact that 1 good leader is often followed by 4 bad ones, I figure that it only takes 1 good leader (especially with that kind of lifespan to work with) to lay the proper foundations if they have the strength and dedication. After that the benefits speak for themselves, and eventually the radical becomes the traditional.

 

You raise a good point about the negative effect of the Trolloc Wars as well as the positive ones, and they were dealing with the whole mess from the fall of Manetheren and the deposition of Tetsuan as well - but to me that just seems like it should have been more motivation for her followup to do what needs to be done to put things right.  Are there any solid quotes on whether Black Ajah actually publicly defected at the time? Seems like they would do more damage from the inside. Or maybe some go one way, some the other - you get the global damage of seeing former AS serving the Shadow, while still maintaining a hidden presence in the Tower to sow doubt and discord. It seems like that would be pretty hard to keep hidden in the secret histories. But then, so does the fact that the Shadow actually broke through into Tar Valon, as did the enemy forces during the War of the Second Dragon (if memory serves).

 

I don't like comparing fictional worlds to reality terms of concrete events (eg. your UN comparison) because the setup, the context, is so different, even if human behavior is (supposed to be) the same everywhere. The UN is a global bureaucratic mess, not a centralized organization of 1000 - 3000 women with extremely long life spans, demi-godlike powers and a hierarchical leadership. I just don't thing the analogy applies :p I'll dwell on it though.

 

That said, nothing will convince me that there's any logic or reason behind not actively recruiting. They know they're leaving thousands of women to die while they sit around and moan about the lack of novices. I don't care how traditional it is, no organization is full of people that cruel and stupid at the same time.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

tinkers were driven from towns wherever they went because they were suspected of recruiting and stealing kids away.

 

come, use the power that broke the world, leave your home and family and all you owe them, and join us in our coven where you will

outlive everyone you ever knew and abandon any value your culture has tried to impart.

 

yay, take my daughters away?

 

nope.

 

begone witches.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jun 10th, 2010

Plot Related Q&A With Maria Simons + New MAFO by Luckers (Verbatim)

LUCKERS

When were the Oaths implemented? Were they all done at the same time? If not, when were each put in place?

MARIA SIMONS

From the BBoBA: "These oaths were not always required, but various events before and since the Breaking caused them to be necessary. The Second Oath was the first adopted after the War of the Shadow."

And according to Sheriam, "Once, Aes Sedai were not required to swear oaths. It was known what Aes Sedai were and what they stood for, and there was no need for more. Many of us wish it were so still. But the Wheel turns, and the times change. That we swear these oaths, that we are known to be bound, allows the nations to deal with us without fearing that we will throw up our own power, the One Power, against them. Between the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years we made these choices, and because of them the White Tower still stands, and we can still do what we can against the Shadow."

So we have the Second Oath was adopted first, and the other two added between the Trolloc Wars and the War of a Hundred Years (if we believe Sheriam, anyway, and I can see no reason for a lie on this one).

 

That's Sheriam's description of what happened. She was Black Ajah, so who knows, but it was thought to be a necessary thing to do so they could fight against the Shadow. 

 

In any case re: Trolloc Wars/ Dreadlords: 

 

I'm not sure if I said one way or the other, but likely they did as you said and some fought with the Shadow's armies and some stay behind to sow chaos and distrust. It is the same thing. The Trolloc Wars severely eroded the Aes Sedai reputation and it was only recovered to a respectable position ( they were respected more in Hawkwing's day than the present day. Aes Sedai could still be queens.) due to the Oaths and whatever else they did. 

 

Perhaps they could have went about it another way, we just don't have specifics of that 1000 years to judge beyond broad terms. 

 

As I said, I would much prefer to see it your way, but history isn't so kind. It is much easier to destroy than lay foundations. 1 good ruler could spend their whole lives building, then a bad one destroys it in an instant. (When the good ruler has the Aes Sedai life-span, so do the bad rulers, and their reigns are just as long.) I mean, look at what Elaida did. She pretty much messed up the Tower in a few months, when Suian spent 10 years preparing for Rand and the Last Battle. 

 

But we'll put that aside as a difference of opinion. I just wanted to make clear the other ways of viewing it. 

 

Re: UN. It wasn't a direct comparison, but an institutional system of similarities. Through one you can see the problems of that type of institution and what can and does go wrong, what does and doesn't happen. If you can't compare, then there is no point in saying something is unrealistic, since the judgement comes from looking at our world's history and how people act, mixed with the fictional history added to the story. But it isn't that important. Politics is what's important, the White Tower closely resembles a republic in terms of how they decide on what to do, it's no different even if they do have super-powers. They are still human, with human vices and virtues. 

 

As to the last point, I believe they DO have Aes Sedai recruiting. Verin and Alanna do that in the Two Rivers when they found a bunch of talent. The number of channelers was also in decline due to culling the male channelers and thus the genes necessary. But in general there should have been a better recruitment process in place. I'm inclined to believe that they were giving up hope in the later years of the 3rd Age, and simply didn't have the will left to deal with it. Things were going from bad to worse for them. 

 

The Shadow did a good job with the Aes Sedai. 

[Sabio]

If you look at it, the borderlanders did have more then one advisor, at elaynes first meeting with them, she counted that they brought thirteen with them.  So four leaders yet thirteen Aes Sedai.  Also one of the green (forget her name) was daughter to one of the borderland kings, yet she was roaming about and not up in the borderlands.  So even borderland Aes Sedai didn't go back up there and protect the nations there.

 

The big thing I think you are forgetting is they no longer had travelling.  Recruitment was riding everywhere on horseback trying to find women who could channel, its a primitive way of doing things.  But its the only way they had.  Same with why you probably don't have more yellows simply riding about looking for folks to heal, you would simply spend more your time trying to get to city to city.  The reason hardly anyone went to the two rivers, it was just too out of the way for most folks to visit.  What you see as Aes Sedai failures is more of  a result of lack of technology and numbers..  A hospital would require someone wanting to be healed by an Aes Sedai not to mention the Yellows currently lack very effective healing.   Do they even know a weave to remove a disease from a body?  The biggest issue facing Aes Sedai was simply lack of numbers and lost knowledge.

 

Ishy made sure society was always in chaos.  He basically caused Hawkwing's death an it broke his empire.  But if you look at it anytime the land started to have peace and go forward something like the trolloc wars would happen.  Ishy didn't just want to weaken the tower but keep the land in chaos and weak.  So to say Aes Sedai should of done stuff over the thousands of years forgets to take into account the devastation that kept happening.  Aes Seda would lose more and more of thier numbers, knowledge and technology would be lost etc...  It was simply impossible to try and maintain doing things the way they use.  Then bad tower decisions would also harm it, from Amirlyns being dethroned, weak Amirlyns being mere puppets to the hall, BA working behind the scenes, etc...  Ensured the tower never operated as effectively as it should of.  It simply seemed like the Aes Sedai and new nations always had to start over till you get in Rand's time where large areas of land are uninhabited. The southern lands squabble and fight, the borderlands keep to the border, some nations simply always in chaos. Even Andor the queen didn't even have authority over her entire nation.  Whiteclaoks roam everywhere, etc.  It rather dangerous out there which I think explains why so many Aes Sedai don't have the urge to leave the tower.

[Azrayne]

As to the last point, I believe they DO have Aes Sedai recruiting. Verin and Alanna do that in the Two Rivers when they found a bunch of talent. The number of channelers was also in decline due to culling the male channelers and thus the genes necessary. But in general there should have been a better recruitment process in place. I'm inclined to believe that they were giving up hope in the later years of the 3rd Age, and simply didn't have the will left to deal with it. Things were going from bad to worse for them.

 

They did, but only after Moiraine came across Nynaeve and Egwene by accident. There was no organized recruitment, which is atrocious given the 1/4 survival rate.

 

That quote by Verin is the one I've had in mind this whole time. I agree that the Trolloc Wars would have influenced their image negatively in a manner I hadn't considered, but I maintain that this negative influence would have been counteracted at least somewhat by the positive influence of seeing Green Sisters in the thick of things with their Warders.

 

Otherwise yeah, I think we just see things from different perspectives. You see the weakness of institutions, I see the strength of leaders (especially such powerful ones with such great lifespans - no modern world leader has ever had the kind of universal power and influence a strong Amyrlin has in the Westlands), I see the respect accredited to war heroes, you see the fear ingrained by the weapons they use. Which is a fair point - even the most straight up supporter of the use of the atom bomb to end WW2 on the Pacific theater isn't exactly a worshipper of the people who created and dropped those bombs, and we've seen the fear and distrust which has echoed down the world stage ever since. But even then, Verin didn't say that the bound themselves because of the Trolloc Wars, or directly after, but rather sometime between then and Hawkwing, which implies that things were allowed to degrade further. I'm pretty sure that even if things had hit rock bottom directly after the war ended, it would have taken centuries just to convince the Aes Sedai population that the Oaths were necessary.

 

We know how offended they are by the mere suggestion of misbehavior (Egwene used this as the fulcrum on which she gains control over Sheriam just by threatening to reveal that Sheriam & co. had suspected Black sisters existed in the Salidar Hall), we know how proud they are, and we know how wary they are of Ter'Angreal (and there's nothing to suggest the Oath Rod had been touched since before the Breaking - they obviously didn't have an instruction manual for the thing, or they would have known about the lifespan issue and then nothing could have made them use it*). So that would have been like herding cats, to borrow a phrase from the series, except herding them across a river.

 

*That's actually an interesting thought - what if whoever first came up with the idea of using the Rod 'did' know, but saw it as a necessity like the binding itself and so didn't reveal the information? Doesn't mean much either way, but it's interesting to think about.

 

Anyway, I think we've pretty much exhausted the possibilities of this debate :p but it's been fun discussing the issue with someone who has a different perspective on it.

[Sabio]

But the last thing the tower needs is a bunch of Aes Sedai dying in border skirmishes on the blight.  If an Aes Sedai is nearby when one is happening I am sure she would ride to help, but not even the borderlanders with their armies stop all the raids so a few Aes Sedai really won't make much of a difference.  I think in the end its too much border with the blight and too few Aes Sedai.  Again I think the lack of Aes Sedai is another reason they aren't recruiting more along with you have to ride a horse everywhere.  They do have people out recruiting, but more than likely as in the Two Rivers they probably avoid the way out of the way places, or places deemed too dangerous to go.  You also have to look at the ajahs I am sure the reds, whites, and greys probably don't go out recruiting very much and sounded like many browns don't leave the tower.  Sure if the reds or say greys are about do something (saying looking for men who can channel) and see a lady who might bee able to channel they will look into it, but my opinion of the reds is they seems to focus solely on finding men.  I don't see them riding into a village simply for testing girls.  So most probably gets done by the ajahs who probably got out and travel the most the blues and greens.

 

Pretty sure the Hawkwing siege of Tar Valon was their low point, they were nearly destroyed because the amirlyn decided to try and control Hawkwing, and the more he succeeded the more she felt she needed to destroy him.  She nearly had the tower destroyed.

[Azrayne]

Already been over all of that I, don't think there's much more to wring out of the topic.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

Anyway, I think we've pretty much exhausted the possibilities of this debate :p but it's been fun discussing the issue with someone who has a different perspective on it.

 

 

That's not something you hear often  

 

It has been fun, good to have a decent debate now and then,

[Mr Ares]

 

I can't think of a single nation that would accept it without question, even accounting for the mistrust of AS. In all nations questions would exist of what is in it for the host nation, what is in it for the AS, does this represent a threat to their sovereignty, and so on.

 

Tar Valon is the obvious starting point. Caemlyn isn't far behind TV in their support of the White Tower and their idolization of Aes Sedai (before the short period preceeding EOTW anyway, which is another example of the distinct advantage of having free hospitals staffed by Yellow AS and their helpers in the major urban centers). The Borderlands I can't imagine turning it down, they respect Aes Sedai and have the greatest need for healing of all the nations.  From there, it could spread to the other nations and major population centers depending on the specific situation - some will be decent rulers who want better health for their people, some will be cases of the people wondering why they should be less healthy than their neighbors over the border, or of influential individuals requesting aid in the form of healing for themselves or others, which could be directly parleyed into allowing a hospital to be set up or indirectly left as an example of the benefits of one existing, some will want to curry favor with the White Tower or gain some kind of political advantage out of a bargain, some would have to slowly have their fear of AS and the OP abated, and so on. Like I said, it would be a process of centuries used to slowly retake control of their global image, not an overnight popping up of Yellow Sisters all over the world.

 

The people of Tar Valon already have access to it - we know people can go to the WT and see AS. Andor respects the AS, but Andoran Queens are still unlikely to want to surrender their power by letting the AS set up Healing centres with the Flame of Tar Valon, unless there was something in it for them.  Note the "without question". Plus, as already mentioned most people won't even be Healed by AS anyway.

 

 

You do realise that there is a written record of what I said? That I can pull quotes from my posts t prove that as not my point.

 

Obviously?

 

I'm not inclined to etc etc. attitude etc etc.

 

Somehow I'll find it in myself to carry on. Instead of talking about attitude and he said/he said/he said and accusing me of putting up a Strawman without backing the accusation up, why not actually rebutt specific points?

 

Actually I did provide quotes to prove you made a strawman. You ewven quoted them in the post I'm responding to now. That's literally why I included them - to prove that what I said did not match up with what you said I said. As for rebutting specific points, I was waiting for your rebuttal, as I had already tackled your starting points and you had yet to actually respond. And my talking about attitude seems to have had the desired effect, as you respond to it by finally starting to address my points.

 

"No matter what the AS do, that problem of people not being exposed to the OP in a positive manner remains. There are just too few of them to truly make it otherwise. While you can certainly make some gains most people will still not be exposed." (reply #38).

 

No it doesn't remain, if healing isn't the ultimate expression of positive exposure, then I don't know what is.

 

Most people won't be Healed, as already pointed out. Most people will be seen by non-AS healers, and not treated by the OP. And so they won't be exposed to it, only a small number of people actually will be.

 

 

"While they could do these things, they are just a drop in the ocean. Ultimately, they have too few AS to truly turn the tide by doing these things, and the benefits are only small."

 

Even at their worst, they have 1000-ish sisters. Even if less than 100 of them are Yellow (which is the second smallest Ajah), that's still enough to post one or two in every major city, have a few wandering and healing in each nation in the manner I described and still have some left over to rotate them out. If we go further back (which is when this logically should have happened) we have a greater number still, possibly double or triple if we go back to the TW - Hawking period or the Ten Nations before that.

 

And one or two women in a city of tens of thousands will help how many people? A good few, yes, but will it be enough to really turn the tide?

 

#40 - note the admission that it would help, which flatly contradicts your claim about what I actually said). The best you could argue would be this: "They'll be helping some people but not others, and the majority of people will not have access to AS help when they need it. You go to one of these AS hospitals, and get treated by a woman with some herbs, because the AS is too busy and must prioritise. She doesn't have time for you." (#40). But context matters, and in this case the specific context is about creating a positive,approachable image. I did not say they would generate negative publicity, I admitted that it would be good, but only limited in scope, and it would not really make them seem approachable.

 

If running healing centers where they actively interact in a friendly manner with the regular population and expose them to the OP in a positive way, or wandering around healing, interacting with the people and being open and informative with them, doesn't make them seem more approachable, nothing will.

 

The Healing centres where most people will be treated by non-AS won't make them seem that approachable. Yes, the AS will have good reason to prioritise, and I'm not saying they will get a bad image because of it - but if you're too busy to really be approachable then you're not generating an approachable image.

 

I'm curious, what are your thoughts on a) how/why the Aes Sedai let their reputation on the world stage degrade from the aforementioned described situation in the era of the Ten Nations to what it is at the end of the Third Age, and b) how this could have been prevented or reverted, to the greatest degree possible?

Things happened over time, too long a period for it to be immediately obvious. Even when it was obvious there was a problem, generating effective solutions and getting everyone to agree to them is an uphill struggle, even without an organisation within your ranks actively trying to undermine you. As for what they could have done differently, they didn't have a lot of good choices. The Yellow Ajah would be better employed focusing on dealing with large scale problems than everyday things - stopping epidemics, for example. Of course, we don't know they don't do just that, having no knowledge either way. I don't think the problems faced by the Tower were in the mission statements of the Ajahs, nor in how those missions were carried out. I think they run much deeper, and ultimately what they needed to do was accept a loss of face, as that would be a by-product of the changes they needed to make. But I think getting the Hall to agree to a course of action that would result in a loss of face for the WT would be difficult, and could always be argue against on the grounds that they are definitely giving something up with no guarantee of getting anything back. That would require truly impressive statesmanship from an Amyrlin, to keep the Hall on side over such a thing for such an extended period, and it could easily be undone by something unfortunate happening to the Amyrlin. A change to recruiting practices is the sort of thing I mean - actively pursuing new recruits and taking people of all ages is an open admission that the WT has to lower standards to get the recruits they need, they are no longer as prestigious as they were.

 

"Now consider the Greens - defending the Blightborder with but a handful of channelers is an impossibility.

 

No it isn't, because the Blight is defended "without" any channelers (or at least, without any constant and regulated Channeler presence) for centuries. However, adding Green sisters would mean less casualties, military and civilian, it would mean that the Aes Sedai would establish a firm reputation as defenders of the civilized world and the ultimate bane of the Shadow, that the Battle Ajah would actually take part in battles and not just talk a big talk (and gain experience for themselves and their Warders in the process), that the time spent training Greens and their Warders and the money they live off isn't just going to waste while they laze around the White Tower.

 

Adding Greens means the Shadow reacts to the presence of Greens. At a loss ratio of 10,000 to 1, you'll still run out of Greens long before you run out of Shadowspawn. Increasing the Green presence on the Blightborder could simply result in catastrophic losses for the WT. Long term, that's not saving lives. The Green Ajah is best used by reacting in large numbers to a full scale offensive by the Shadow, not by diluting its forces to be whittled down. Concentration of force. The Borderlanders, on the other hand, are numerous enough to guard the Blightborder.

 

 

If you concentrate forces in certain locations then the Shadow can simply focus attacks elsewhere. If you spread out to cover more places, the Shadow attacks in force and you're overwhelmed.

 

The same can be said about any conflict along an extended border.

 

True, which is why disposition of forces is important. In the case of the AS, keeping the bulk of the forces behind the front lines to use a s a reserve is optimal.

 

 

"As for the Greens, you could imagine fifty sisters to each Borderland nation, but the problem remains - it's easy enough to strike where they aren't, unless they spread too thin in which case you strike hard enough to take out the AS."

 

You could say the same about every military force. "Why bother manning the Blightborder at all? The Trollocs will just come through where the Soldiers aren't..." It's an absurdly futilistic and short sighted view.

 

The armies can be mobilised in numbers that the AS can't be. While it's still true that you can't guard everywhere, with enough men under arms you can effectively guard the border. AS will at best supplement that - but you ignore the risks associated with concerted attempts to use AS to supplement conventional forces by spreading them thinly, and you also ignore how much harder it is to replace AS losses.

 

 

Adding AS doesn't change the enemy, but it changes how they react - they go where there are no AS, or they attack with the intent of destroying the AS.

 

Aes Sedai are more than capable of defending themselves. Of course some will die, maybe many - but that's what happens in battles. If they didn't want to risk their life fighting the Shadow, they shouldn't have joined the "Battle Ajah."

 

It's not about whether or not you want to risk your life, it's about whether your life is being risked for a good reason. Will your sacrifice be in vain, or will you be used effectively?

 

 

Stationing Greens permanently in the Borderlands is not choosing your battles wisely, it's forcing the Shadow to react, but with no idea how. That's poor strategy. Right now the raiding of the Borderlands is unfortunate, but the alternative is not any better - because they still get raided, or you provoke an outright war which costs them dearly - before you go back to more raiding. Or you get raided by people who are good at ambushing and killing AS.

 

Another futilistic argument, and one that doesn't take a realistic look at the situation. What we're talking about isn't an active war, it's a border between a dangerous, corrupt environment populated by violent, but stupid and selfish, genetically engineered monsters with no central leadership (excluding the Trolloc Wars), and the rest of Civilization. If the Shadow could push further south, they would do so just by instinct, but they lack the combination of leadership, organization and numbers to do so. Other than rare and specific incursions generally caused by weakness in the human defenses caused by specific events, it's bands of Trollocs lead by the Myrddraal they occasionally give birth to who try to cross the border to kill, destroy, kidnap and rape on pure instinct. There's no centralized leadership, little if any intercommunication. All they have going for them is their strength, brutality, numbers and the skill and apparently inborn leadership abilities of the Myrddraal.

 

It's not an active war currently, but you risk provoking one. The Shadow has forces in the Blight that they do not commit to raiding parties, such as the Red Veils. We don't know how often Ishamael enjoys periods of freedom - we know of his presence in the Trolloc Wars, as Hawkwing's advisor and executing the previous head of the BA prior to the start of the series. Beyond that, we can't say if he has been active or not. And even if he isn't, forcing the Shadow to react could lead to greater co-operation. We've already seen they are capable of coming together to carry out large scale operations - they co-ordinated the betrayal of a Darkfriend with a large assault of Trollocs to destroy Malkier. To say that they wouldn't be able to co-operate to take down organised AS forces seems a little unlikely. You propose forcing them to react, to get the leadership they lack, and making them a bigger threat in the longer term - all the short term gains are cancelled out.

[Azrayne]

 

 

Anyway, I think we've pretty much exhausted the possibilities of this debate :p but it's been fun discussing the issue with someone who has a different perspective on it.

 

 

That's not something you hear often

 

It has been fun, good to have a decent debate now and then,

 

 

Yeah absolutely, a friendly, mostly calm debate is always fun and one of the best ways to open yourself up to new perspectives. Like I didn't consider the effect of people seeing the OP used as a weapon during the Trolloc Wars would have had until you raised it. I still stand by my main points, but I have a slightly different view on the situation now.

 

If you're ever bored a Taimandred or Elayne debate would be a fun way to kill a bit of time :p

[Sabio]

Egwene debate would also use up a lot of time.  I find Egwene is one of those folks hate her or love her type of characters.

[Barid Bel Medar]

At one stage we literally had to put a stop to any Egwene debate because every single time it would end up with somebody going nuts and the thread being locked. It has cooled down after aMoL but the whole Rand v Egwene deal.... I don't want to go back to that... 

 

Anyhow, getting off topic :P 

 

Feel free to create another one about anything like that and I'll probably be up for some discussion. I don't do Taimandred though, that one leads to nothing good either. 

[Ea'V_FOTV_Fan]

I may have missed something amongst all the well crafted arguments here. If so I say sorry, sai.

 

The one underlying thing I haven't seen is Elayne. No sooner had she taken the throne in Andor she immediately begun crafting ways to bring the Kin under her control, using them as a means of raising revenue, controlling them absent Tower influence, etc. she was Aes Sedai, but a Queen first. Add the "Dragons" (cannons) that she was desperate to control and you see a Sister who is far more concerned with the political realities of her nation than she was the whims of the White Tower. While she was the 'dream' of many in the Tower, a full Aes Seadi on the throne of a powerful nation, she immediately supplanted those aspirations with her own.

 

True, she ultimately became the Commanding General of all the forces in the Last Battle along with Mat, but that's somewhat secondary to her political realities. To her it was Andor, Last Battle, then Tower. In that order. She crafted to keep the Kin, she had designs on the Black Tower, etc. Her interests politically where far more important to her than those of the Tower.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

I may be mistaken but from what I recall the yellows mainly heal injuries, physical and magical and perhaps psychological. there seems very little disease in the story, even in famine. I vaguely remember something in some interview (yeah, I'm not doing quotes, and it is vague) about the breaking and the difficult terms of natural selection that followed it, and the work done in genetics during the AoL, rendering the population healthier.

 

this makes little real world sense to me as germs evolve rapidly and mutations should still be moving along at a decent rate, but it seems not to be the case.

 

so I'm not sure there was an in world need for OP hospitals except as MASH units following battles or as the very special magical injuries ward that healed people like Mat who picked up cursed daggers and such.

[BFG]

 

 

it's elaida,not elaina,and if you join the dragon reborn you are not joining cadsuane,rand's aes sedai (cadsuane included) worked for him,not the other way around.

Lol, I know it's Elaida I don't always catch my computers auto-correct.There are 4 groups/individual Aes Sedai around Rand. The Tower and Salidar group who are loyal to Rand because of ta'veran. They weren't really the group I was talking about since they chose between the Tower and Salidar. Cadsuane swore to do 'what's best for Rand', although that's always going to be what's best for Rand in her opinion. Nynaeve chose to join Rand as an individual. The remaining Aes Sedai are there because of Cadsuane, and it was this group I meant. The story already has a Cadsuane and a Nynaeve :)

 

Wow, I beg to differ! After Dumais Wells, Sisters swore fealty to Rand because he was ta'veren, which was long before Cadsuane was even introduced. Cadsuane never 'swore' to anyone other than herself and her firm belief that only she could guide the Dragon Reborn to Tarmon Gidon. The Salidar group was as determined to controll Rand as Elaida's tower was, they just had different ideas about how to achieve that. The Tower split was never really about Rand, it was about the coup that Elaida used to overthrow Siuan. I agree that Nynaeve followed her own path. She was always determined to 'protect' the Two Rivers youngsters above all else, other than getting Lan away from Moirane. Other than the two Sisters that she brought with her when she first appeared, every other Aes Sedai that swore to Rand did so for her own reasons. Cadsuane thought them all fools. Phaw!

 

I think you misunderstood the question?

 

After the Tower split, there were 3 groups of sisters that we are aware of (I'm sure there were more that remained independently aligned but we don't meet them) and ignoring Black Ajah affiliations.

 

The two main ones are the Tower and Salidar Groups, who decided that healing the Tower was the most important thing, that doesn't mean they don't realise that other things aren't important, hence each maintaining their 'ambassadors' to rulers (not just Rand). The Sisters that swore to him after Dumas Wells are part of those groups. (I never said or suggested that the Tower split had anything to do with Rand.)

 

The sisters that came with Cadsuane were independent of those 2 groups, I think Corele and Daigian (I can't remember if there were more). They decided that guiding the Dragon was the most important thing. Now admittedly there's doubtless a degree of Cadsuanes 'legend' sweeping them up, but they still chose to ignore an order from the Amyrlin Seat to stay with Cadsuane which was there choice.

 

Nyn is independent of all these groups, although she initially chose Salidar as well.

 

Hence the initial choice that we are aware that Aes Sedai made was the Tower, Salidar and Cadsuane/Rand.

 

 

On a side note, Cadsuane swore to do what was right for Rand and not the Tower, although, that said, it will be what's right for Rand in her opinion :)

[Sabio]

I think Cadsuane was just totally disgusted with the state of the Aes Sedai.  She seemed to want to avoid all the nonsense going on there.  Of course she didn't know of the forsaken in the tower and how deeply the BA infiltrated the tower (think she said at one point she thought she discovered most the BA) but clearly she was  wrong.  But still the tower should not of crumpled that quickly and as Egwene pointed out the fact so many just went along with the divisions forming and did so little to stop it from happening.  Casduane has a tough job ahead o f her making the Aes Sedai strong and respected again.

[Azrayne]

^ Not just strong and respected, but growing and changing with the new Age and adapting and improving on Egwene's revamp. That's why Egwene's death and Cadsuana becoming Amyrlin annoyed me - I'm not a huge fan of some of the stuff she does, but overall I think she would have made a great Amyrlin in the Third Age - however as much as she's considered fairly "radical" in her personal behavior by the standards of her peers, she's a 400 year old woman who's still very much a product of her era and the Aes Sedai culture of the time in many respects, also very much set in her ways, so imo not the Amyrlin to continue the significant and truly radical changes the Tower needs to make to get where they should be and keep up with the changing world around them. She's probably the best option with Egwene dead, but I think it'll take her replacement by someone from the newer generation (ie. someone who was recruited during or after the Split and came up as an Aes Sedai under the new system, so they develop with the new mindset) to really continue the revamping of the Tower. IMO best thing Cadsuane could do is build on Egwene's work a bit and hold the Seat until a suitable candidate appears, then do as much as she can to fill the Hall with similarly suitable candidates and then step down into retirement  - and in fairness to her, she seems sensible and (mostly) introspective enough to recognize this.

 

As an example, Cadsuane is a Green, and Aes Sedai like her (that is, of her era, the pre-Split Aes Sedai) have their Ajah deeply ingrained in their identity and lifestyle. And yet the Last Battle has been won, the DO has been locked away - there's no Shadow left to fight, no Blight to guard, no new Dreadlords to await, so her Ajah has literally become obsolete. But I can't see her truly acknowledging that, or setting out to significantly revamp the Ajahs themselves individually or system by which Aes Sedai have identified and divided themselves for 3000 years as a whole.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Egwene was like Rand, they were good war-time leaders. With peace and stability, I don't think she would be as effective. Most of the things that Egwene did happened because of the dire situation with both the DO and the Seanchan, the Aes Sedai accepted it because they had no choice. Don't get me wrong, I think Egwene would still have been a good Amyrlin, but things wouldn't have continued to improve so rapidly. 

 

The other major problem was the Seanchan. Egwene's total hatred of the Seanchan was dangerous for the peace of the entire world post-LB. It is justified, and the Seanchan need to change, but they can't be fought, they have to be changed slowly. I don't think Egwene is best suited to make decisions about them. 

 

Cadusane is more flexible and better equipped to be a peace-time leader. She is less radical, more experienced and universally respected as a legend that makes her a good option. 

 

Egwene's death was fitting with her character. She devoted herself totally to the current Aes Sedai's true mission: to be a shield against the Shadow, and she performed admirably. It is fitting that she gave her life for victory, it's exactly what she would do. 

 

And of course, it may be annoying, but not every story has a perfect outcome. That's the tragedy of the whole thing. The DO destroys so much good and so much potential. 

[Azrayne]

I just feel it's a pretty flat ending to her story arc across the entire series. She's built up as this big revolutionary figure who's going to go down in history, with a big chunk of the series based around a) her training and study, and b) her rise to power. And then she's dead at the age of 20 with not even a year at the head of a united Tower. Feels kind of silly that the prophesied savior gets a new body just so he can play baby daddy, yet the one who scratches and claws her way to the top so she can make the changes which need to be made sacrifices herself (I also think it would have been much better if Logain had killed Taim himself, plot-wise, but that's another discussion). Of course you're right that not every story has a perfect outcome, and part of what made AMOL so good was that it didn't play everything out in the more obvious and neat ways they could have. But still I think a lot of other characters would have been a better choice for the "kill off one of the major early POV characters" slot (cough Perrin cough).

 

re: Seanchan, I don't know that her hatred is a bad thing. While I think the series does a good job of humanizing the Seanchan, in the end they are a culture built largely on slavery and torture, particularly of a small segment of the population who were randomly born with the Spark (granted from what we know of this history, this wasn't something which came out of the blue, but it's still a pretty awful way to manage the power differential between normal people and channelers), and who have a thousand year history of believing that world conquest was their near-divine birthright. Imperialism and slavery aren't bad things to hate.

 

On the other hand, you're right that she may have been not just aggressive, but unreasonable with them, but, especially as she grows up and and possibly comes to terms with the psychological scars of her capture and torture (and she seems like the kind of person who would), it could be argued that it would have driven her to do what needs to be done about some of the more atrocious aspects of their culture, instead of accepting it because it happens "over there somewhere" in return for concession which benefit her more personally (as a lot of people do, speaking more generally - turn a blind eye to horrific events because they're distant and not visible, especially if they benefit in some way).

 

But it is what it is. I think the person who really determines the future of the WT will be whoever follows Cadsuane onto the Amyrlin Seat, and Cadsuane's the only real option to fill the gap until a viable candidate comes up. And while she's not a radical in comparison to Egwene, maybe she feels Egwene's lead will give her the chance to make some of the common sense changes that needed to be made a long time ago (which I suspect is why she ran from positions of official power every other time they were offered), if not the radical changes which will need to be made going into the future.

 

I don't do Taimandred though, that one leads to nothing good either.

 

Come on, you've got the icon and name and everything :p

[jack of shadows]

@azrayne,

"dead at the age of 20 with not even a year at the head of a united tower".

the length of time between the beginning of winter heart and the epilogue

of a memory of light is roughly 7 months,egwene was amyrlin of a unified

tower barely 3 months when she died.

[Azrayne]

Exactly my point.