the Tower Split; what would you choose

[Sabio]

Not sure many struggle with the idea the books could be anything different.  Rand was going to win, Forsaken plans had to fail, and sometimes people had to do stuff that made no sense in order for the end to be reached.  I understand all that part, doesn't make some of the stuff folks do in the books less frustrating though.  I understand the Aes Sedai acted the way they did throughout history and the books from a they know better mentality.  They were an organization based on rigid rules and customs and the white tower survived as other nations fell.  So the Aes Sedai felt their way was best.  But we saw it nearly destroyed them as they couldn't really adapt to the changing world.  hey stuck to the we know what needs to be done, we must guide Rand etc.  thought process.  Now Siuan and Moriane understood better then most but they still tried to do the we mut guide him, we understand the prophicies, he is but a child we must guide thought process.  Had Rand blindly listened to Moriane it would of been disaster.  I was in the Air Force and at times I could say I saw a lot off Aes Sedai behavior.  I can't count how many times I heard "this is how its always has been done" response when I was told to do something that made no sense.  It can be easy for an organization to fall into that mentality.  The Aes Sedai viewed the world as a parent and child, they knew what was best for nations they assumed so would "guide" rulers to certain actions. When it came time for them to change, they really couldn't do it quickly, fear makes people do dumb stuff.

 

Now I am not going to say all peoples reactions I agreed with or sometimes things people did didn't leave me scratching my head.  One example is I understand Rand and Co being distrustul of Aes Sedai after all just in the beginning look at how many people Tam, Thom, etc told them don't trust an Aes Sedai.  Not to mention Aes Sedai did have a bad reputation.  So I understand them being suspicious of her and her intentions.  Not to mention they had a pretty naïve view of the world and how things should be done.  But their whole trusting what the DO said in their dreams over Moriane did have me confused.

[mb]

I do not recall any character telling Rand (or the other taveren) to not trust Aes Sedia; at least explicitly.

Tam's & Thom's advice (about Aes Sedia) seemed to be this::  be wary.

being wary is not necessarily the same as not trusting.

[Azrayne]

You may offer your rebuttal.

 

 

Coming up :)

 

But their whole trusting what the DO said in their dreams over Moriane did have me confused.

 

 

Yeah this was one of those "god you're being stupid" moments - but if you put yourself in their shoes it kinda makes sense, at least to me. They're being lead around by this woman who to them seems infinitely knowledgeable and powerful, a mythic figure surrounded in their mind by stories of manipulation, lies, scheming, betrayal and what many see as unnatural or unholy behavior (touching the True Source). This figure came into their lives pretending to be something other than what she was, is suddenly revealed when she uses the OP to protect Emond's Field from the Trollocs (or, in Rand's case, when he's told about it after the fact), is strongly hinted to be manipulating them or tying strings to them in some way once this is revealed (with the coins and especially with Moiraine healing Tam and the preceding dialogue), all of this is going on over the course of 48 hours which start with them already on edge seeing the Myrdraal, go through a collection of more mundane ordinary exciting/scary events (arrival of Fain/Thom, news of war nearby and a false dragon who can channel), then the night of the attack of Emond's field by creatures they thought were fictional monsters, then the recovery the day after when her identity is revealed, then that very night she drags them away telling them the literal personification of evil (they weren't even sure they believed in) is after them, drags them through a dangerous journey dodging shadowspawn, destroys the ferry with the OP, then reveals that their friend and Rand's almost-fiance is going to be taken away to become just like her. Then she continues her deceptive and freaky behavior while they travel together, presenting herself as Mistress Alys in Baerlon and creating the giant illusion to scare the whitecloaks.

 

All this chaos, violence, physical exertion and emotional turmoil over such a short period, and she just drops in that btw they should be careful of any weird dreams - so they're confused, upset, unstable, terrified, unsure whether they can trust her or not, and suddenly they start having dreams where a man claiming to be the aforementioned personification of evil (iirc, I'm not sure whether he calls himself Ba'alzamon in the first dream or a later one) and who puts on a pretty good performance - probably because he's insane and believes it himself - pops up and starts manipulating them even further, playing on their chaotic emotional state and their culturally ingrained fear and mistrust of Aes Sedai (backed up by some of her behavior - most of which makes perfect sense from a neutral perspective, but not from theirs). Can you blame them for not trusting her? For not wanting to approach her? For wanting to hope the dreams are just dreams (until they find out otherwise), and for then trying to ignore them afterwards? Then they get split up and it's too late.

 

The real mistake is Moiraine's, for not questioning the boys more deeply about their dreams each time they woke, for leaving them in the dark as to the exact nature of the dreams and what they meant, thus leaving them open to Ishamael's influence, for not presenting a more trustworthy and approachable demeanor to them and not explaining her actions, thus leaving them to come to their own conclusions and furthering their distrust of her (which are usually the worst ones, especially in such a crazy period of time). And for that matter, for not just shielding the boys dreams automatically - although in fairness on this one, maybe she doesn't have enough strength with spirit that this was an option unless she felt it was necessary, especially given how much Power she was throwing around at the time. As much as I like and admire Moiraine as a character, she does drop the ball in her handling of the Emond's Field kids (and they are just kids - Egwene is 16 and the others are 18 - not exactly an age at which a person is thinking or acting rationally at the best of times) in a pretty big way.

[Ryrin]

Salidar.  Elaida was crazy and needed to be removed as Amyrlin.

[Ea'V_FOTV_Fan]

 

it's elaida,not elaina,and if you join the dragon reborn you are not joining cadsuane,rand's aes sedai (cadsuane included) worked for him,not the other way around.

Lol, I know it's Elaida I don't always catch my computers auto-correct.There are 4 groups/individual Aes Sedai around Rand. The Tower and Salidar group who are loyal to Rand because of ta'veran. They weren't really the group I was talking about since they chose between the Tower and Salidar. Cadsuane swore to do 'what's best for Rand', although that's always going to be what's best for Rand in her opinion. Nynaeve chose to join Rand as an individual. The remaining Aes Sedai are there because of Cadsuane, and it was this group I meant. The story already has a Cadsuane and a Nynaeve :)

Wow, I beg to differ! After Dumais Wells, Sisters swore fealty to Rand because he was ta'veren, which was long before Cadsuane was even introduced. Cadsuane never 'swore' to anyone other than herself and her firm belief that only she could guide the Dragon Reborn to Tarmon Gidon. The Salidar group was as determined to controll Rand as Elaida's tower was, they just had different ideas about how to achieve that. The Tower split was never really about Rand, it was about the coup that Elaida used to overthrow Siuan. I agree that Nynaeve followed her own path. She was always determined to 'protect' the Two Rivers youngsters above all else, other than getting Lan away from Moirane. Other than the two Sisters that she brought with her when she first appeared, every other Aes Sedai that swore to Rand did so for her own reasons. Cadsuane thought them all fools. Phaw!

[Ea'V_FOTV_Fan]

I do not recall any character telling Rand (or the other taveren) to not trust Aes Sedia; at least explicitly.

Tam's & Thom's advice (about Aes Sedia) seemed to be this::  be wary.

being wary is not necessarily the same as not trusting.

Verin warned him, Moirane warned him, Lews Therin warned him. Those are just the three that spring to mind. Of course with Verin and Moirane the implied rest of the warning was"except me" but the point is, he got warned often to not trust Aes Sedai.

[mb]

Moiraine; her exact words were these::

 

Trust no woman fully who is now Aes Sedia.

Fires of Heaven chapter 53.

I interpret that as current Aes Sedia; past Aes Sedia and future Aes Sedia could be excluded from that.  and "fully" I interpret as that he could partially trust current Aes Sedia.

 

Verin; her letter told that he could trust Cadsuane and to be wary of other sisters.  Like I said in the post, being wary is not necessarily the same as not trusting.

 

Lews Therin; he seemed to frequently change his mind about who to trust or not trust. and on the degree of trust.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

I think moiraine's warning had more to do with the plans she knew various tower factions had for the dragon, and the black Ajah, etc., than general distrust of aes sedai and can't be parsed or solved like a mathematical equation.

 

the kind of things the boys heard before they knew anything about aes sedai were like: the truth they tell you isn't the same as the truth you think you hear, an aes sedai will turn the truth on its head, the price you pay for favours from aes sedai is far greater than you think it will be, once they get strings tied to you you'll never get free, etc.

 

aes sedai were trusted pretty much nowhere, and it wasn't subtle. they were considered meddling witches at best, agents of the dark one at worst. pretty much like the Middle Ages to very close to the present day in the real world.

 

so, quoting chapter and verse aside, the culture as a whole distrusted channeling women.

 

remember how hard it was for nynaeve to accept that she was channeling? how they called channelers wisdoms or herb women or said they listened to the wind, or anything but what they were?

[Sabio]

@Az, I understand them being cautious about telling Moriane of their dreams, even Thom told them to hold off on that.  The part that confused me was they seemed to believe more of what Ishy told them in their dreams over what Moriane would tell them.. They seemed really suspicious of her yet a guy appears in their dreams with flaming eyes, spouts of names of false dragons and how the tower used them, and Rand seems to be like ok well Balz said it so must me true. Then spouts to think it was Siuan how he won't be used like they used the other false dragons. It just seemed to me Moriane would say something and they would be all suspicious yet Balz would say something and they seemed to accept it more.  I know there was a discussion once on whether or not Balz was trying to use small amounts of compulsion on them and if that affected their thinking.  But I think most agreed he wasn't since he could easily of compulsed them to say surrender to his minions etc and capture them.

[Ea'V_FOTV_Fan]

It's never popular to say "but that moved the story forward" but sometimes that is the case. Did that happen here? Probably not, but let's look at the lore. Aes Sedai were largely myth in the Two Rivers prior to Moirane arriving. She shows up and trollocs follow. She warns the boys about their dreams but doesn't say why. (She's not sure who, if any, of the three is the Dragon) She was also aware that telling someone that they had a place in prophecy could wrongly influence said prophecy. Rand did enough of that later all by himself.

He had unfounded mythology in his head, his father told him during his fever that he WASNT his father, trollocs had just destroyed his home and nearly killed Tam, he saw his father on his deathbed healed by a strange woman who asked him for some future task, etc.

if that ain't enough to test your trust, I don't know what is.

[Sabio]

But still a guy with flaming eye appears in your head claiming to be the DO, you should be highly suspicious of that also. After all he is know as the father of lies. I understand his mistrust and suspicion of Moraine.  I would think you should be equally mistrsutul if not more of someone popping in your dreams saying he is the DO. 

[Ea'V_FOTV_Fan]

But still a guy with flaming eye appears in your head claiming to be the DO, you should be highly suspicious of that also. After all he is know as the father of lies. I understand his mistrust and suspicion of Moraine.  I would think you should be equally mistrsutul if not more of someone popping in your dreams saying he is the DO.

 

It's still a dream, and days went by before any of the boys admitted to each other that they were sharing the same dream. Dreams vs. reality.. Which do you choose? Given everything I don't know which way I'd go. Thom was a 'normal' person and he told them to stay quiet. I'd probably lean in his direction. They were all in that great river, De'Nile.

[Azrayne]

@Az, I understand them being cautious about telling Moriane of their dreams, even Thom told them to hold off on that.  The part that confused me was they seemed to believe more of what Ishy told them in their dreams over what Moriane would tell them.. They seemed really suspicious of her yet a guy appears in their dreams with flaming eyes, spouts of names of false dragons and how the tower used them, and Rand seems to be like ok well Balz said it so must me true. Then spouts to think it was Siuan how he won't be used like they used the other false dragons. It just seemed to me Moriane would say something and they would be all suspicious yet Balz would say something and they seemed to accept it more.  I know there was a discussion once on whether or not Balz was trying to use small amounts of compulsion on them and if that affected their thinking.  But I think most agreed he wasn't since he could easily of compulsed them to say surrender to his minions etc and capture them.

 

The thing about Ba'Alzamon is that he threw in enough truth with the (assumed - is it ever stated for sure whether the White Tower ever set up False Dragons?) lies that, combined with their emotional and psychological turmoil, the chaotic events they've been swept up in and their deeply inbuilt mistrust of Moiraine, it would be at least enough to place doubt in their minds. Yes he's called the Father of Lies (well, the DO one is, and that's who they think they're speaking to), but he also gave them the real names of False Dragons which Thom later verified and called "dangerous." Combined with Moiraine dragging them off and the general craziness, that has to plant even more seeds of doubt.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

@Az, I understand them being cautious about telling Moriane of their dreams, even Thom told them to hold off on that.  The part that confused me was they seemed to believe more of what Ishy told them in their dreams over what Moriane would tell them.. They seemed really suspicious of her yet a guy appears in their dreams with flaming eyes, spouts of names of false dragons and how the tower used them, and Rand seems to be like ok well Balz said it so must me true. Then spouts to think it was Siuan how he won't be used like they used the other false dragons. It just seemed to me Moriane would say something and they would be all suspicious yet Balz would say something and they seemed to accept it more.  I know there was a discussion once on whether or not Balz was trying to use small amounts of compulsion on them and if that affected their thinking.  But I think most agreed he wasn't since he could easily of compulsed them to say surrender to his minions etc and capture them.

 

The thing about Ba'Alzamon is that he threw in enough truth with the (assumed - is it ever stated for sure whether the White Tower ever set up False Dragons?) lies that, combined with their emotional and psychological turmoil, the chaotic events they've been swept up in and their deeply inbuilt mistrust of Moiraine, it would be at least enough to place doubt in their minds. Yes he's called the Father of Lies (well, the DO one is, and that's who they think they're speaking to), but he also gave them the real names of False Dragons which Thom later verified and called "dangerous." Combined with Moiraine dragging them off and the general craziness, that has to plant even more seeds of doubt.

 

 

Yeah, you nailed it. The boys were wide-eyed and naive, hadn't even been to a real city. Ishamael did a very good job as the 'Dark One'. In many respects, he was telling truths. 

 

As they say, the best lie holds a grain of truth. 

[Azrayne]

Anyway, way back to this, as promised:

 

How things are portrayed in the series, the AS didn't just arrive at where they are overnight. They've been shaped over time. They were trusted, but trust was eroded, so they turned to the Oath Rod. Hawkwing pushed them back to the WT. If they were doing those things before Hawkwing, they would have had to stop then. And as doing them apparently didn't do them much good, they were probably not in a hurry to go back to them.

 

 

Hawkwing might never have been able to close them into Tar Valon if they'd been so widespread, accepted and trusted. He would have seemed insane and paranoid, like someone in our modern age sick and refusing to see a doctor, because doctors (well, mostly, I've met a few who make me wonder :p ) aren't a global organization with a reputation for manipulation, control, selfish behavior, screwing people over in the pursuit of their own imperceptable goals, etc etc. But by the time of Hawkwing the Aes Sedai had already closed in and cut themselves off from the common people that they resorted to the oath rod as the only way the general populace would deal with them, and even that backfired to an extent (a lot of people believe the oaths are a falsehood or some kind of trick, or that the inability to straight up lie just makes them more deviously manipulative, the latter not without reason, at least by the era of the books). If going to the Aes Sedai healing center when your life was on the line was as common as going to get surgery when your life is on the line in our era, nobody would have accepted his paranoia or his war on Tar Valon, no matter how well he'd united the lands. The seeds of mistrust had to have already been planted before Ishamael could water them, and the Aes Sedai should never have let it get that far.

 

 

While they could do these things, they are just a drop in the ocean. Ultimately, they have too few AS to truly turn the tide by doing these things, and the benefits are only small. Will they be creating a positive, approachable image? No. They'll be helping some people but not others, and the majority of people will not have access to AS help when they need it. You go to one of these AS hospitals, and get treated by a woman with some herbs, because the AS is too busy and must prioritise. She doesn't have time for you.And the more places you expand into the worse the problem gets, because you're spreading the AS thinner and thinner. Woman wandering the countryside? Well, that will be useful if you should stumble across one, but it's hardly a useful way of actually getting help to people who need it. And by having Yellows wandering the countryside like that (which they might already be doing, given that at any given time there are plenty of AS out of the WT) you have fewer available to help in the centres in the towns and cities.

 

 

Not necessarily. The numbers I stated are based off the end of the Third Age, even greater numbers would have been achievable the earlier back we go, even more powerful healing as well, since the Aes Sedai's strength degraded over the third age due to the culling of male channelers (among other factors).

 

Besides, your main argument makes no sense. You're saying that because they couldn't heal every single sick person everywhere, they should not only not even try, but would gain a terrible reputation for doing so? That's completely illogical and absurdly futilistic. Even if someone fails in a task, they get generally credit for trying, and what about all the times they succeed? Even if the Aes Sedai only saves one life in her time in a village before she moves on, that person's family will remember, their children will remember, their friends and neighbors will remember that someone who would otherwise be dead is alive because of the White Tower. As for the healing centers - of course they have to prioritize. People (well, most decent people) don't complain when they go to hospital and they don't have a doctor there to treat them instantly, doing everything themselves and staying with them the entire time. They understand that there are a lot of sick people, some sicker than them, and that resources have to be distributed for the greater good. But if they enter a building with the Flame of Tar Valon above it's door sick, and they come out well, that makes a difference in their mind. Even if they never even see the Aes Sedai because they just have an infection that needs cleaning, they go in sick, and people with the Flame of Tar Valon on their uniform make them better. It's not just the individual Aes Sedai', it's the institution they and their workers represent, the image, the logo, that sticks in their mind. Peopl would know the White Tower stands for altruism, for aiding the population, for keeping people alive and healthy. That kind of thing means a lot. Corporations these days spend billions in marketting to gain that kind of positive reputation.

 

I'm going off on a bit of a tangent, but it's an interesting example: in my teenage years, one of my first jobs was door to door sales - specifically, signing people up to donate to charities on a monthly basis. My job was to literally walk up to a strangers door in the middle of the day, talk my way inside their house, then convince them to give me their credit card details so that they could then have money extracted on a monthly basis to go to a charity. And anyone doing anything door to door has a hard slog to begin with, people hate the power/cable salesmen almost as much as the religious ones, and a lot of that flowed over to us even though we were signing people up for charities. Over my time on this job, I pitched 3 charities. The first was one I don't remember the name of, which helped children in Africa. The third was a local environmental charity. But the second was the Red Cross. I only worked with the first charity for 2 weeks, and in that time I made exactly 3 sales. A lot of that can be put down to the fact that I was learning the job (all 3 sales were on the last day of those 2 weeks, so it took me a while), but I also knew everyone elses numbers weren't amazing either. They got by, but that was all.

 

Then we were assigned the Red Cross, and our income soared. Most people started getting at least 30% more in commissions. Some as much as a 50% increase, those who were especially good (some just have the knack for it - I didn't really, I was a decidedly average salesman, but with the Red Cross I made nearly twice in commission what most people taking a gap year at that age earn as their weekly wage. We went from 3 subscriptions being a really good day to 4, 5, even 6+ for the smooth talkers. Even more when we went out on country town roadtrips). After a few months, we were rotated onto the environmental charity, and our income plummeted. Mine went down to about 1/2 of what I'd been making on Red Cross, barely minimum wage. Once I was no longer wearing that red shirt with the cross on it, I got a very different reception. Instead of reaching for their wallet, people would hear me out, agree that protecting the environment was very important, but wonder if they really wanted to contribute monthly and whether they couldn't just give me $10 to give to this... what was it I said it was called again? They would certainly think twice before giving me their credit card details on a form to carry around in my bag. Most of the team quit within the week, and I quit the next. Sales always has a high turnover, and I know the office rebuilt their team, but I also know that they never pulled in close to what they did during the Red Cross phase. Put on that Red Cross shirt, and drug addicts in public housing would sign up to donate $40 a month of their welfare cheque (I also went this whole period with only a single cancellation - if someone cancelled their subscription within 3 months, it was taken out of our commission, so it wasn't just being overwhelmed by the pitch, people stuck with it). We would sign people up just walking past them in the street, or sitting down at lunch.

 

The point of this anecdote is that symbols are important. Institutions are important. Reputations are important. If you asked most of those people, I doubt any of them could have told me a single specific about what the Red Cross was doing somewhere in the world beyond the sales pitch we gave them. The pitch was no better than the other charities (worse actually, because they knew they could coast on their name alone), the work they did was no less important, but it was the Red Cross. Everyone knew them and everyone knew they did Good Things and that we represented them, even if they didn't know the specifics. They hear the name and the image in their head is food going to malnourished African children, tents set up in war zones, medication being distributed during outbreaks.

 

 

As for the Greens, you could imagine fifty sisters to each Borderland nation, but the problem remains - it's easy enough to strike where they aren't, unless they spread too thin in which case you strike hard enough to take out the AS. Even if the AS did these things, they would still not be trusted. They would mitigate the damage somewhat, at best, but to most people the reputation of the AS would remain.

 

 

That's just the same absurd futilist argument. "The Greens can't be everywhere all the time, so why bother?" Of course they can't be at every fight ever (no soldier, no military force can), and they can't win every fight they're at, but remember how much Agelmar light up when he thought that Moiraine and Lan were coming to Tarwin's Gap? Of course the Greens couldn't catch every single Trolloc ever and drive the Blight back to Shayol Ghul, but with their Warders and their ability to sense Shadowspawn, they could accompany patrols, sense ambushes or raids in time to sound the alarm. They could set up wards. And of course they could be where the fighting is thickest, throwing fire and lightning while their warders stride into the fray, provide battlefield healing to those in the most desperate need, re-energizing exhausted troops. People would remember that. Veterens would remember the times they were saved by an Aes Sedai or her Warder, the time the representative of the White Tower turned the tide of a battle, as would rulers and commanders and nobles. The tales of the Green Ajah, the women of the White Tower who fought back the shadow with their Warders would make their way south, even to the places where the Shadowspawn are thought to be legends, the role of the Aes Sedai standing against them in those "legends" would be rememebered, and when an Aes Sedai turned up, people would see a representative of an altruistic White Tower which stood for keeping the population healthy, a brave and self sacrificing White Tower which stood for fighting the Shadow, not of a manipulative, self serving White Tower which used people like game pieces and made Kings dance on strings for their own ends.

[Sabio]

Not to mention as we saw with Tam and Mats dad, they didn't seem overjoyed an Aes Sedai saved them and worked hard to pay off any "debt" to ensure they wouldn't be indebted to an Aes Sedai.  They are happy to be alive but weren't walking about shouting the praises of the Aes Sedai either.  With most peoples view of Aes Sedai at the time I am sure the same would be true with most people, happy their loved one is alive but secretly wishing there could of been another way it could of been achieved without an Aes Sedai..  Also how feared the white cloaks were and how freely the roamed from nation to nation.  Singing the praises of the Aes Sedai could get you into a lot of trouble.  if whitecloaks came by and a neighbor reported you.

 

Borderlanders also have a lot more postive few of Aes Sedai, so the is probably for of an incentive for Aes Sedai to go up there and help.  As for word reaching the south of Aes Sedai helping, would they believe it?  Wasn't there talk about southlanders thinking trollocs were just a myth?  In the end I think a lot of things come down to decling Aes Sedai numbers and different Aes Sedai views on how to do things.  Some Aes Sedai rarely if ever left the tower, they had no desire to go out into the world.  This is part of their problem, holding themselves apart from non Aes Sedai.  There was also not much incentive to experiment with new weaves since that was dangerous and could burn yourself out.  So why risk it? Is trying to find a better way to heal worth it if in the attempt to burn out your ability to channel?   After all there was that story about the grey (forget her name) caught up with a ternagel and was laying there screaming before dying.  So that poses a pretty good warning to anyone wanting to experiment with the power or terengeal.  So most were content with what they knew and had little interest in taking any risk to try to expand their knowledge.

[Azrayne]

Not to mention as we saw with Tam and Mats dad, they didn't seem overjoyed an Aes Sedai saved them and worked hard to pay off any "debt" to ensure they wouldn't be indebted to an Aes Sedai.  They are happy to be alive but weren't walking about shouting the praises of the Aes Sedai either.  With most peoples view of Aes Sedai at the time I am sure the same would be true with most people, happy their loved one is alive but secretly wishing there could of been another way it could of been achieved without an Aes Sedai..  Also how feared the white cloaks were and how freely the roamed from nation to nation.  Singing the praises of the Aes Sedai could get you into a lot of trouble.  if whitecloaks came by and a neighbor reported you.

 

 

That attitude developed precisely because the Tower drew in on itself. There's 3000 year shift of the attitude towards White Tower Aes Sedai (as opposed to pre-Breaking Aes Sedai) - from respect and reverence, as the last holders of the power and knowledge which survived the Breaking, to the mistrusted manipulators, the "witches" of the Whitecloaks, which they're seen as in much of (although not all) the world by the end of the third age. Though even with all their blunders, all the mistrust and fear they've managed to garner, there are still people who willing serve them, who adore them, all over the world. But if they had hung onto their heritage as "servants of all" there would never have been room for such widespread fear and mistrust to develop, let alone groups which actively preach against Aes Sedai. There's just no logical reason for such a powerful and (supposedly) politically astute organization to allow their image to degrade so precariously when it goes counter to all of their goals. If the Three Oaths weren't a wake up call (how do you think the Aes Sedai felt, binding themselves for the first time? I bet that didn't go down well...), then Hawkwing sure as hell should have been. But they blundered on for another thousand years, closed in, until less and less novices came, less and less people trusted them or respected them or wanted anything to do with them. They should have cultivated an image as wise and benevolent leaders, altruistic healers, preservers of knowledge, defenders against the Shadow - instead they almost intentionally played into the role of the "witches" the Whitecloaks cast them in.

 

If you spend three thousand years healing and defending, then people will appreciate and admire you. If you spend three thousand years manipulating and deceiving, then people will mistrust and fear you. The White Tower reaped what it sowed - but what makes no sense is that while we know there were plenty of selfish Aes Sedai and weak Amyrlins, we also know there were plenty of admirable sisters and strong Amyrlins, time when the Hall and the Amyrlin worked in harmony. Realistically, any organization would have realized their image is slipping and stopped to do something about it. It benefits the Tower, it benefits individual sisters, it benefits the world. The only people who lose are those who work for the Shadow and those who gain power by preying on the fear and mistrust of the Aes Sedai which they allowed to pollute the minds of the populace. If they had held it together from the beginning, Hawkwing might never have been turned against the Tower even with Ishamael manipulating events, or the Tower might have held his united Empire together after his death. So much could have turned out differently if the Aes Sedai had had the slightest bit of political acumen.

[Mr Ares]

Anyway, way back to this, as promised:

 

How things are portrayed in the series, the AS didn't just arrive at where they are overnight. They've been shaped over time. They were trusted, but trust was eroded, so they turned to the Oath Rod. Hawkwing pushed them back to the WT. If they were doing those things before Hawkwing, they would have had to stop then. And as doing them apparently didn't do them much good, they were probably not in a hurry to go back to them.

 

Hawkwing might never have been able to close them into Tar Valon if they'd been so widespread, accepted and trusted. He would have seemed insane and paranoid, like someone in our modern age sick and refusing to see a doctor, because doctors (well, mostly, I've met a few who make me wonder :p ) aren't a global organization with a reputation for manipulation, control, selfish behavior, screwing people over in the pursuit of their own imperceptable goals, etc etc. But by the time of Hawkwing the Aes Sedai had already closed in and cut themselves off from the common people that they resorted to the oath rod as the only way the general populace would deal with them, and even that backfired to an extent (a lot of people believe the oaths are a falsehood or some kind of trick, or that the inability to straight up lie just makes them more deviously manipulative, the latter not without reason, at least by the era of the books). If going to the Aes Sedai healing center when your life was on the line was as common as going to get surgery when your life is on the line in our era, nobody would have accepted his paranoia or his war on Tar Valon, no matter how well he'd united the lands. The seeds of mistrust had to have already been planted before Ishamael could water them, and the Aes Sedai should never have let it get that far.

 

Doctors aren't a monolithic organisation. They are also not the rulers of a sovereign nation. They couldn't just set up hospitals in another country without the permission of the rulers, and convincing them to allow that means spending political capital, which would indicate the AS have an agenda. Rulers would have reason enough to want to limit the spread of AS, even if they didn't have their reputation as manipulators. The very means that would get them into countries to set up hospitals would create the conditions that could be exploited to stir up resentment against them among the ruling classes. Someone sufficiently skilled at bringing people around to their way of thinking - and Hawkwing was a ta'veren, if nothing else - could unite people against the AS, no matter what they did.

 

While they could do these things, they are just a drop in the ocean. Ultimately, they have too few AS to truly turn the tide by doing these things, and the benefits are only small. Will they be creating a positive, approachable image? No. They'll be helping some people but not others, and the majority of people will not have access to AS help when they need it. You go to one of these AS hospitals, and get treated by a woman with some herbs, because the AS is too busy and must prioritise. She doesn't have time for you.And the more places you expand into the worse the problem gets, because you're spreading the AS thinner and thinner. Woman wandering the countryside? Well, that will be useful if you should stumble across one, but it's hardly a useful way of actually getting help to people who need it. And by having Yellows wandering the countryside like that (which they might already be doing, given that at any given time there are plenty of AS out of the WT) you have fewer available to help in the centres in the towns and cities.

 

Not necessarily. The numbers I stated are based off the end of the Third Age, even greater numbers would have been achievable the earlier back we go, even more powerful healing as well, since the Aes Sedai's strength degraded over the third age due to the culling of male channelers (among other factors).

 

Besides, your main argument makes no sense. You're saying that because they couldn't heal every single sick person everywhere, they should not only not even try, but would gain a terrible reputation for doing so?

 

No, that's not even remotely my argument. And it doesn't speak well to yours that you're reduced to using strawmen. My point was that while helping people might be good as an end in itself, as a source of good publicity it's a little flawed. To turn the tide of public opinion you don't just help people, you publicise your helping. Yet all your talk is of them doing good to change minds.

 

As for the Greens, you could imagine fifty sisters to each Borderland nation, but the problem remains - it's easy enough to strike where they aren't, unless they spread too thin in which case you strike hard enough to take out the AS. Even if the AS did these things, they would still not be trusted. They would mitigate the damage somewhat, at best, but to most people the reputation of the AS would remain.

 

That's just the same absurd futilist argument. "The Greens can't be everywhere all the time, so why bother?" Of course they can't be at every fight ever (no soldier, no military force can), and they can't win every fight they're at, but remember how much Agelmar light up when he thought that Moiraine and Lan were coming to Tarwin's Gap? Of course the Greens couldn't catch every single Trolloc ever and drive the Blight back to Shayol Ghul, but with their Warders and their ability to sense Shadowspawn, they could accompany patrols, sense ambushes or raids in time to sound the alarm. They could set up wards. And of course they could be where the fighting is thickest, throwing fire and lightning while their warders stride into the fray, provide battlefield healing to those in the most desperate need, re-energizing exhausted troops. People would remember that. Veterens would remember the times they were saved by an Aes Sedai or her Warder, the time the representative of the White Tower turned the tide of a battle, as would rulers and commanders and nobles. The tales of the Green Ajah, the women of the White Tower who fought back the shadow with their Warders would make their way south, even to the places where the Shadowspawn are thought to be legends, the role of the Aes Sedai standing against them in those "legends" would be rememebered, and when an Aes Sedai turned up, people would see a representative of an altruistic White Tower which stood for keeping the population healthy, a brave and self sacrificing White Tower which stood for fighting the Shadow, not of a manipulative, self serving White Tower which used people like game pieces and made Kings dance on strings for their own ends.

 

Again, you haven't addressed my argument. A greater AS presence on the front lines might just lead to escalation, to the Shadow changing up their strategies - use of the Red Veils, or a strategy of ambushing and killing AS. AS are a powerful asset, but they have never been so numerous that they can afford to be used recklessly. Perhaps the Green Ajah was too conservative in its application, but in terms of the wider strategic picture they were not too wide of the mark. Needlessly escalating the conflict would have cost them dearly. Note that the Green mission statement was to stand ready for Tarmon Gai'don, not to hold back the Blight or guard the Borderlands or some such. They took to the field during the Trolloc Wars, and were greatly effective. That's telling. Rather than provoking the Shadow to react to the increased threat they held back, for when they would be needed. What you propose is a short term view with no consideration for the big picture. It's worth noting that they did act en masse to save Malkier, but couldn't get there in time - you might well argue that an AS presence in the Borderlands would have prevented it, but I counter that an established AS presence in the Borderlands is a known factor, and so would be accounted for in any plan. It might not have saved Malkier, it might just have got a significant force of AS killed. Does the good PR of their trying to help outweigh the disastrous loss of so may Sisters? No.

[Azrayne]

Doctors aren't a monolithic organisation. They are also not the rulers of a sovereign nation. They couldn't just set up hospitals in another country without the permission of the rulers, and convincing them to allow that means spending political capital, which would indicate the AS have an agenda. Rulers would have reason enough to want to limit the spread of AS, even if they didn't have their reputation as manipulators. The very means that would get them into countries to set up hospitals would create the conditions that could be exploited to stir up resentment against them among the ruling classes. Someone sufficiently skilled at bringing people around to their way of thinking - and Hawkwing was a ta'veren, if nothing else - could unite people against the AS, no matter what they did.

 

 

All of which I addressed in my post. Obviously they aren't going to roll into every city in on the continent and just set up shop, but some places would accept it without question, possibly even request it, and things could be taken from there. It would be a process, of course, how much of one depends on which time period we're talking about - obviously it would have been much easier the earlier we go back into the Third Age. The longer the Tower let their reputation degrade(although it wasn't entirely a passive process, they certainly did things to speed it along), the less people there were who trusted them, would want anything to do with them or the OP, the less sisters there were (and the less powerful they were). Until they end up in the pathetic state they're in at the end of the age.

 

No, that's not even remotely my argument. And it doesn't speak well to yours that you're reduced to using strawmen. My point was that while helping people might be good as an end in itself, as a source of good publicity it's a little flawed. To turn the tide of public opinion you don't just help people, you publicise your helping. Yet all your talk is of them doing good to change minds.

 

 

It's precisely the argument you made: that because they would fail to heal sometimes, or wouldn't personally tend to every scratch or sprained ankle, or wouldn't be omnipresent, the failures would be remembered but the successes would not, and thus it would damage their reputation further.

 

Now you're making a different argument about publicity (the idea that helping people is flawed publicity is silly - helping people is it's own publicity, people remember the people who help them and their loved ones, and it makes them feel better towards them, especially when the helper is a respected figure - which they would be much more frequently if they actually did help people - who helps in such a dramatic fashion), which is exactly what I was writing about in my response. Putting aside that good as an end in itself should be a considerable factor for any group calling itself the "Servants of All," they would gain publicity as a result of their actions the same way everyone does. Word spreads via gossip, travellers, correspondence. Stories are told. By the end of the Third Age, Aes Sedai frequently travel undercover because people won't trust them otherwise (and in many places, they're in danger). That didn't just happen randomly - it happened as a result of centuries on centuries of Aes Sedai acting in a selfish, aloof, arrogant and manipulative manner. Reputations develop based on actions, spread through word over mouth, developed over time.

 

Let's take two situations. In one an Aes Sedai travels through a village - she demands the best rooms in the Inn and the best service from the Innkeeper because she thinks she deserves it. When asked what she's doing or where she's going (if anyone dares), she acts aloof, possibly giving a cryptic answer which means nothing, or drops hints about business that mere villagers would tremble to hear of, or just tells them it's none of their business, or stays silent. She spends the rest of the night locked away in her rooms, dining alone. In the morning, she's coldly polite, pays for the room and any food, and departs. In short, the way many Aes Sedai seem to carry themselves in the series, to lesser or greater degrees.

 

Now lets replay that situation. An Aes Sedai wanders into a village, wearing her yellow fringed shawl, which everyone in the village recognizes from the stories and rumors as a sign that she is a healer. Maybe someone in the village was healed once, maybe there's a veteran from the Borderlands who's been telling stories, maybe some of the villagers have travelled to the closest city and seen the building, with the Flame of Tar Valon on a yellow background above the door, where they were told any who are ill are welcome to enter. She approaches the local inn, politely requests a decent room and a meal, and then asks if there is anyone sick, in the village or the vicinity who could use healing. Maybe there is, maybe not, maybe she hears word of someone come down ill in the next town and sets off to help But people will remember that she offers, freely, and requests nothing in return. If she isn't busy healing, she approaches the local Wisdom/equivalent and speaks to her, asks about the situation nearby, are there any strange rumors? Any word of major outbreaks? Any girls (or, hopefully not, men) who show the signs of touching the OP?

 

Then she spends some time in the common room. Maybe she makes polite conversation with other travellers. She eats a decent but mot opulent meal - she's human like everyone else. Maybe some of the village girls approach her and ask her about the White Tower, and she talks to them about how the Tower stands for unity, for the Light against the Shadow. She talks about how she personally chose to spend her time ensuring that the population is healthy and well cared for, but also of her Green sisters and their brave Warders who hold back the Shadow in the north, her Grey sisters who mediate between nations and prevent the outbreak of war, the Reds and their sadly necessary mission to protect men born with the spark from themselves, the Browns and their massive stores of knowledge from eras long gone, the Wise Whites and their philosophical understanding, and the Blues who travel and prevent injustice and abuse of the population, make the world a better place for all to live in.

 

She talks about how the One Power is a tool like any other, dangerous in the wrong hands, but safe and beneficial when wielded with training and wisdom, a gift from the Creator to allow a certain portion of the population to serve the world in a greater capacity. She corrects some of their misconceptions, maybe if she hasn't already done so by healing someone, she provides a small demonstration to show the girls (and anyone else who's listening and watching) that the OP is nothing to be feared or hated. Maybe she tests some young women of the right age if they request it, maybe she just tells some of the younger girls of Tar Valon. All of them she warns of the signs of the flowering Spark, in case they see it in themselves or someone around them. After a few hours, she's tired, again, she's human like anyone else, just one with a gift which allows her to serve the populace, and she retreats to her room to rest. Maybe she stays a few day depending on the situation - there could be multiple individuals in need of healing, or troubling rumors to investigate and send back to the Tower, or girls about to come into their power or capable of being taught who need to be handled with care and hopefully guided (although never forced) towards the Tower.

 

One morning when her work there is done, she thanks the innkeeper and the village for it's hospitality, she offers him a generous tip in Tar Valon coin, and she moves on to the next town.

 

Both of those are going to be remembered. But each will be remember very differently. As a once off, or twice, or twenty times, it might make no difference, but as a larger trend of worldwide behavior, over centuries, it will shape the image of the White Tower in the eyes of the world. Instead of allowing their image to degrade as they get caught up in politics and manipulation, instead of allowing sisters to lounge around on the White Tower's coin, doing no work with what the Tower has taught them but pursuing their own selfish ends and frequently treating the populace horribly when they do go into the world, they seize control of their own image, their own reputation.

 

They maintain the Tower as a bastion of all that is good and right for the world to see. Of course there will still be people who mistrust them - there is always mistrust when a power differential occurs, especially one which is inherent, and the Taint and the Breaking don't help either (although by seizing control of their own image, they can ensure that people understand that the Taint and the Breaking were the fault of the Dark One, a sickness inflicted by the Shadow, and that the White Tower works to prevent such a thing ever happening again and the mitigate the damage), but they would be doing everything they can to counter that, instead of almost intentionally aggravating the problem (Thom is a good example - there was no sign he had any issue with Aes Sedai before the situation with his Nephew, gentled in the street and left for a mob. But because of that, his distrust is passed onto the three boys and causes the White Tower all sorts of problems down the road. To be fair, that isn't a typical example, but even a typical gentling, from what we've been seen, involves the poor bastard being treated like a criminal for "daring" to touch the One Power, instead of the unwell victim of the Shadow that he is).

 

Why do you think everyone respected the Aes Sedai in the AoL? It was because they used their power to help people. The only thing stopping the Aes Sedai of the Third Age, certainly of the pre-Hawkwing era, is their own selfishness and political blindness.

 

 

Again, you haven't addressed my argument. A greater AS presence on the front lines might just lead to escalation, to the Shadow changing up their strategies - use of the Red Veils, or a strategy of ambushing and killing AS. AS are a powerful asset, but they have never been so numerous that they can afford to be used recklessly. Perhaps the Green Ajah was too conservative in its application, but in terms of the wider strategic picture they were not too wide of the mark. Needlessly escalating the conflict would have cost them dearly. Note that the Green mission statement was to stand ready for Tarmon Gai'don, not to hold back the Blight or guard the Borderlands or some such. They took to the field during the Trolloc Wars, and were greatly effective. That's telling. Rather than provoking the Shadow to react to the increased threat they held back, for when they would be needed. What you propose is a short term view with no consideration for the big picture. It's worth noting that they did act en masse to save Malkier, but couldn't get there in time - you might well argue that an AS presence in the Borderlands would have prevented it, but I counter that an established AS presence in the Borderlands is a known factor, and so would be accounted for in any plan. It might not have saved Malkier, it might just have got a significant force of AS killed. Does the good PR of their trying to help outweigh the disastrous loss of so may Sisters? No.

 

 

That wasn't your argument, although it isn't any better. Of course the Shadow would change their tactics to counter the Aes Sedai (although other than the Trolloc Wars and the fall of Malkier, the Blight hasn't exactly been a constant raging war, just a border between two different sides across which raids take place). That's how conflict takes place - doesn't mean that the Light shouldn't do what they can. What's the point of a Battle Ajah that doesn't take part in any battles? They're more like the "Sleep With Their Warders and Perve on Galad" Ajah.

 

Who said anything about reckless? I'm no suggesting they just grab whatever Greens are sitting around (a number which would have been significantly higher the further back we go, just like everything else) and try take down Shayol Ghul, just be a visible, beneficial presence in protecting the populace of the Borderlands, helping the soldiers already placed there, and striving to prevent once off major events like the fall of Malkier. You're right about one thing, they are a powerful asset - but an asset is meaningless if it isn't put to use. A green sister lazing around the White Tower politicking and stirring up trouble her entire life is exactly as useful as a dead sister. Less useful, because presumably the dead Sister and her warders did plenty of good fighting the Shadow before they died, whereas a Green sister who never fights the Shadow is only a Green sister on a technicality.

 

The Amyrlin Seat should make like wealthy parents who's kid finished Uni then turned down a job offer in their field to bum around in their mansion and smoke weed all day and cut him the hell off till he does something useful with himself.

[Sabio]

Problem is there isn't much to go on about what the Green Ajah is or isn't doing before Rand shows up.  It sort of seems like besides  the fights to capture men that can channel they Aes Sedai aren't engaging in much fighting.  There just isn't enough Aes Sedai to be used simply to sit in some key spots along the border.  I am sure had Rand not blown up the Trolloc army at the end of the first book the Aes Sedai would of tried to stop the invasion.  But as we saw they really didn't have any Aes Sedai they could quickly call upon to react to the invasion and show up at the battle.

[Azrayne]

Problem is there isn't much to go on about what the Green Ajah is or isn't doing before Rand shows up.  It sort of seems like besides  the fights to capture men that can channel they Aes Sedai aren't engaging in much fighting.  There just isn't enough Aes Sedai to be used simply to sit in some key spots along the border.  I am sure had Rand not blown up the Trolloc army at the end of the first book the Aes Sedai would of tried to stop the invasion.  But as we saw they really didn't have any Aes Sedai they could quickly call upon to react to the invasion and show up at the battle.

 

 

Yet they had plenty sitting around the Tower perving on Galad and deposing Siuan? From memory it's stated directly post-Split that roughly 1/3 of the Aes Sedai are at Tar Valon, 1/3 are at Salidar and 1/3 are off elsewhere. If we assume there was an even split at the Tower and then a few more sisters poured into Salidar when they heard what happened, we're talking 500, maybe 550 sisters in Tar Valon before the Split. Green is the second largest Ajah, so we can assume there would have been at least 10 or so 15 green sisters available for each of the Borderland nations, rotating them out every 5 or 10 years. And this is when the Tower is at their rock bottom, their most degraded era, absolute weakest in terms of number, skill, strength and reputation.

 

Go back 500 years and it would have been a different story. Go back 1500 years and they could possibly have doubled, maybe tripled those numbers, and pre-Trolloc wars... well we know the Tower was built for a hell of a lot more Aes Sedai than there are at the end of the Third Age, and we know there are a hell of a lot more women with the ability to become Aes Sedai (even excluding those who wouldn't traditionally make the cut in terms of testing/power) out there in the world who aren't becoming Aes Sedai because the Tower has closed itself off and isn't playing as much of an active role (certainly not as much of a positive active role) as it should be. What kind of sick mind leaves thousands of teenage girls to die each year because they would rather that "novices come to us" than actively recruit? That kind of attitude is exactly why it's possible for Whitecloaks and those with similar attitudes to portray Aes Sedai as witches and darkfriends.

 

All I'm saying is that several of the Ajahs don't do their chosen job, and a lot of the sisters don't do anything productive with their time. Why have a "healing" ajah if none of them actually heal? Is it just a club for the sisters who are slightly better at the healing weave than others to sit around and talk about being slightly better at the healing weave than others but never actually using it? What about the Greens? As I said, what's the point of a Battle Ajah that never fights any battles? What the hell do all those Warders do with their time? Just laze around the tower practicing and following their Aes Sedai as they pursue their own personal goals, as far as we can tell. Hardly a productive use for hundreds of men who are supposedly the most dangerous warriors on the continent. What's the point of the Greens having extra warders if those Warders don't actively fight the Shadow? They'd do better as non-Warder soldiers defending the Borderlands.

 

My point is that somewhere between the formation of the White Tower and the reign of Artur Hawkwing, the Amyrlin and/or the Hall, one or both, seriously dropped the ball when it came to actually utilizing Sisters for the good of the world and the good of the Tower. They train them, educate them, test them arduously... then fund their lavish lifestyles and let most of them just wander around doing whatever the hell they feel like.

 

We know they took a serious role in the Trolloc Wars, but we also know that sometime in the next millenia they reached the point of needing to use the Oath Rod just so people would trust them. That state of affairs should never have come about because the Aes Sedai should have been playing an active, altruistic role in the world (which would have benefited everyone involved), and I find it hard to believe that they went for centuries (which would have been just a generation or two of Aes Sedai, especially pre-oath Rod) without realizing that their public image was becoming seriously tainted. I find it extra hard to believe that the Oath Rod was their first choice of ways to address this issue (I mean seriously, stop and imagine in your head the first time some Sitter stands up in the Hall and suggests they use an 1500 year old Ter'Angreal which has presumably never been used since the AoL to forcefully bind themselves against committing murder, telling lies or creating weapons - though the third is a little pointless. How well do you think that went down? Even just considering the insulting implications alone, not the practical ones or the unintended side effects they should have been smart enough to expect). The level of stupidity and ignorance that would have been involved in that whole process is beyond even what we see in the Aes Sedai at the era of the series.

[Sabio]

The Greens if I am understanding it aren't just the ajah that likes to fight but its the ajah getting ready and preparing to fight in the last battle.  The BWB describes their primary goal is "to hold themselves ready for Tarmon Gai'don, the last battle with the Dark One."  It also describes them as fierce fighters of Shadowspawn, but they don't simply seek out a fight.  They are mostly the ajah that's suppose to be ready for when the last battle occurs. I look at it like this how big is each borderlands border with the blight?  Now how do you monitor and stop raids and such along such a border with only 15 Aes Sedai?  Even borderlanders seem to take raids as a matter of fact, it happens sort of thing.

 

According to the BWB Yellow sisters are wholly devoted to healing sickness and injury as well as finding new cures and new methods of using the One Power to restore health.  That is their mission but as the BWB goes on to say "though in truth, few believe any better method exists than the one now since the breaking."  So you have a lot of Yellows who think this is it, there is nothing else that can be done to make things better.  From the sounds of it the yellows would think it a waste of time riding village to village seeing if anyone needs healing and instead would wait till say an epidemic or war broke out and rush there to do the most good.  Too many places distrust channeling and towns are too far apart to simply ride about blindly trying to seek people to heal.  You would end up wasting a lot of time just traveling about.  The other key thing is the belief no better method exists.  I feel many probably buy into that out of the fear of trying to discover new weaves.  Experimenting with the power can be dangerous, so how many Aes Sedai are willing to try and burn themselves out to find a better weave?

 

Remember the oath rod was more then simply letting people know you weren't lying, it also ensured Aes Sedai didn't start picking sides in wars and make things worse or start pumping out power wrought weapons. People might always want to kill each other but the Aes Sedai wanted no part in helping them do it.   It also helped ensure people would see the Aes Sedai as neutral in a lot of matters.  The Aes Saedai truly want what's best for people, though they assume they always know what's best.

[Mr Ares]

 

Doctors aren't a monolithic organisation. They are also not the rulers of a sovereign nation. They couldn't just set up hospitals in another country without the permission of the rulers, and convincing them to allow that means spending political capital, which would indicate the AS have an agenda. Rulers would have reason enough to want to limit the spread of AS, even if they didn't have their reputation as manipulators. The very means that would get them into countries to set up hospitals would create the conditions that could be exploited to stir up resentment against them among the ruling classes. Someone sufficiently skilled at bringing people around to their way of thinking - and Hawkwing was a ta'veren, if nothing else - could unite people against the AS, no matter what they did.

 

All of which I addressed in my post. Obviously they aren't going to roll into every city in on the continent and just set up shop, but some places would accept it without question, possibly even request it, and things could be taken from there. It would be a process, of course, how much of one depends on which time period we're talking about - obviously it would have been much easier the earlier we go back into the Third Age. The longer the Tower let their reputation degrade(although it wasn't entirely a passive process, they certainly did things to speed it along), the less people there were who trusted them, would want anything to do with them or the OP, the less sisters there were (and the less powerful they were). Until they end up in the pathetic state they're in at the end of the age.

 

I can't think of a single nation that would accept it without question, even accounting for the mistrust of AS. In all nations questions would exist of what is in it for the host nation, what is in it for the AS, does this represent a threat to their sovereignty, and so on.

 

No, that's not even remotely my argument. And it doesn't speak well to yours that you're reduced to using strawmen. My point was that while helping people might be good as an end in itself, as a source of good publicity it's a little flawed. To turn the tide of public opinion you don't just help people, you publicise your helping. Yet all your talk is of them doing good to change minds.

 

It's precisely the argument you made: that because they would fail to heal sometimes, or wouldn't personally tend to every scratch or sprained ankle, or wouldn't be omnipresent, the failures would be remembered but the successes would not, and thus it would damage their reputation further.

 

You do realise that there is a written record of what I said? That I can pull quotes from my posts t prove that as not my point. Now, normally I'm inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt - miscommunications happen, things aren't always clear even with the best of intentions. I'm not inclined to give it here. You began by offering a response that didn't address my post at all, and subsequently admitted you hadn't read my post. When you do offer a rebuttal that is based on what I have said you misinterpret what I say, and when I point out you're wrong you tell me I'm wrong, and that I didn't say what I say I said. That's not the attitude of someone interested in debate. As to what i actually said: "No matter what the AS do, that problem of people not being exposed to the OP in a positive manner remains. There are just too few of them to truly make it otherwise. While you can certainly make some gains most people will still not be exposed." (reply #38). "While they could do these things, they are just a drop in the ocean. Ultimately, they have too few AS to truly turn the tide by doing these things, and the benefits are only small." (#40 - note the admission that it would help, which flatly contradicts your claim about what I actually said). The best you could argue would be this: "They'll be helping some people but not others, and the majority of people will not have access to AS help when they need it. You go to one of these AS hospitals, and get treated by a woman with some herbs, because the AS is too busy and must prioritise. She doesn't have time for you." (#40). But context matters, and in this case the specific context is about creating a positive,approachable image. I did not say they would generate negative publicity, I admitted that it would be good, but only limited in scope, and it would not really make them seem approachable.

 

 

Again, you haven't addressed my argument. A greater AS presence on the front lines might just lead to escalation, to the Shadow changing up their strategies - use of the Red Veils, or a strategy of ambushing and killing AS. AS are a powerful asset, but they have never been so numerous that they can afford to be used recklessly. Perhaps the Green Ajah was too conservative in its application, but in terms of the wider strategic picture they were not too wide of the mark. Needlessly escalating the conflict would have cost them dearly. Note that the Green mission statement was to stand ready for Tarmon Gai'don, not to hold back the Blight or guard the Borderlands or some such. They took to the field during the Trolloc Wars, and were greatly effective. That's telling. Rather than provoking the Shadow to react to the increased threat they held back, for when they would be needed. What you propose is a short term view with no consideration for the big picture. It's worth noting that they did act en masse to save Malkier, but couldn't get there in time - you might well argue that an AS presence in the Borderlands would have prevented it, but I counter that an established AS presence in the Borderlands is a known factor, and so would be accounted for in any plan. It might not have saved Malkier, it might just have got a significant force of AS killed. Does the good PR of their trying to help outweigh the disastrous loss of so may Sisters? No.

 

That wasn't your argument, although it isn't any better. Of course the Shadow would change their tactics to counter the Aes Sedai (although other than the Trolloc Wars and the fall of Malkier, the Blight hasn't exactly been a constant raging war, just a border between two different sides across which raids take place). That's how conflict takes place - doesn't mean that the Light shouldn't do what they can. What's the point of a Battle Ajah that doesn't take part in any battles?

 

"Now consider the Greens - defending the Blightborder with but a handful of channelers is an impossibility. If you concentrate forces in certain locations then the Shadow can simply focus attacks elsewhere. If you spread out to cover more places, the Shadow attacks in force and you're overwhelmed. The AS are not in a position that has an easy solution, and their failures to do certain things are often understandable, because of the limited benefits of them." (#38). "As for the Greens, you could imagine fifty sisters to each Borderland nation, but the problem remains - it's easy enough to strike where they aren't, unless they spread too thin in which case you strike hard enough to take out the AS." I elaborated on my argument, but I didn't change it. Again, telling me that I didn't say what I said doesn't work - I have the quotes to prove what I said. Your saying that the Blightborder has hardly been a constant raging war is true, and is, in fact, precisely my point - right now you have a border with an enemy who is inclined to raid you. Adding AS doesn't change the enemy, but it changes how they react - they go where there are no AS, or they attack with the intent of destroying the AS. You make the conflict worse by bringing in bigger guns and forcing the enemy to react - and your tangible gains are...? More dead Greens, a more hostile Blightborder. Oh, and some good PR. Those Greens didn't die for nothing. While it is important to fight, you must choose your battles wisely. Stationing Greens permanently in the Borderlands is not choosing your battles wisely, it's forcing the Shadow to react, but with no idea how. That's poor strategy. Right now the raiding of the Borderlands is unfortunate, but the alternative is not any better - because they still get raided, or you provoke an outright war which costs them dearly - before you go back to more raiding. Or you get raided by people who are good at ambushing and killing AS.

[Azrayne]

I can't think of a single nation that would accept it without question, even accounting for the mistrust of AS. In all nations questions would exist of what is in it for the host nation, what is in it for the AS, does this represent a threat to their sovereignty, and so on.

 

 

Tar Valon is the obvious starting point. Caemlyn isn't far behind TV in their support of the White Tower and their idolization of Aes Sedai (before the short period preceeding EOTW anyway, which is another example of the distinct advantage of having free hospitals staffed by Yellow AS and their helpers in the major urban centers). The Borderlands I can't imagine turning it down, they respect Aes Sedai and have the greatest need for healing of all the nations.  From there, it could spread to the other nations and major population centers depending on the specific situation - some will be decent rulers who want better health for their people, some will be cases of the people wondering why they should be less healthy than their neighbors over the border, or of influential individuals requesting aid in the form of healing for themselves or others, which could be directly parleyed into allowing a hospital to be set up or indirectly left as an example of the benefits of one existing, some will want to curry favor with the White Tower or gain some kind of political advantage out of a bargain, some would have to slowly have their fear of AS and the OP abated, and so on. Like I said, it would be a process of centuries used to slowly retake control of their global image, not an overnight popping up of Yellow Sisters all over the world.

 

And of course there are only two nations, maybe three depending on the exact legal situation in Mayene, which overtly forbid channeling, meaning even if they don't accept hospitals (right away), they can't stop Yellow sisters wandering the countryside. And if some of them happen to take up accomodation in Inns, or the houses of local friends, in major population centers (either the capitol itself or somewhere further out, depending on the exact situation) for several months at a time, and if they happen to be willing to spend their free time healing anyone who needs it, helping the local population, speaking to people (and specifically to girls of the right age) about the White Tower's role in the world as protectors and healers, point out the signs of someone who's manifesting the Spark, etc etc. well what is anyone going to do? It's explicitely stated that even Pedron Niall would come for an audience with the Amyrlin Seat at Tar Valon if he was ordered, how many kings and queens, especially in aforementioned friendly nations or the more neutral ones, are going to say approach a group of Aes Sedai and tell them to stop helping people damnit!.

 

...Of course, that's if we're talking post-Hawkwing, which really shouldn't be the situation because this is the kind of thing the Aes Sedai should have been doing from the start. Like I said, the Three Oaths should never have been necessary, would never have been necessary, if the Amyrlin and the Hall had been on the ball. If they'd started earlier during the period of the Ten Nations, immediately once things had stabilized post-Breaking and the White Tower had been built and unified, they would have had more and more powerful Aes Sedai available (it's implied that the numbers at the end of the Third Age are 1/2 - 1/3 of what they were at the beginning) for service.

 

Most important is this interesting point here:

 

"Queen Mabriam en Shereed of Amaraelle, Aes Sedai of the Gray Ajah and ta'veren, was the driving force behind this unification. As many of the queens at the time were also Aes Sedai it is suspected that the White Tower played a significant role." http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Ten_Nations

 

You think a period of 1000 years (only two generations of Aes Sedai at the time) in which there are only 10 nations, many of the queens of which are Aes Sedai themselves (Manetheren comes to mind specifically)*, existing under a unifying treaty put together by a Ta'Veren Aes Sedai, would not have been a period in which it would have been orders of magnitude easier for operations in which the Ajahs play an active role in the world to be undertaken?

 

*The fact that the Queens were Aes Sedai with life spans exceeding half a millenia but that the Kings were obviously not also implies that there would have been a much greater level of political stability and far less frequent successions. It's quite possible some of the Ten Nations were ruled by the same Aes Sedai for hundreds of years at a time, long after their husband's had passed away, although it's also quite likely that many of them, especially those with heirs, would have chosen to step down as active ruler after a period of time (although they would still have been a powerful political force behind the scenes - imagine how much influence a King's 300 year old greatx11 Grandmother would have had over the current ruler and their nation?)

 

Even if the infrastructure of these systems had existed (which to some limited degree seems more and more likely) and then fallen apart during the Trolloc Wars and the ensuing political chaos and re-ordering (the Trolloc Wars were 300 years-ish, so multiple generations of regular people, but not even one generation of Aes Sedai, especially pre-binding), the Aes Sedai and their Warders played a crucial role in the victory of the Light in the Trolloc Wars, and could easily have traded this political capital in to re-extend their public aid/defense programs. It was only somewhere between the end of the Trolloc Wars and the beginning of Hawkings reign that they had to begin using the Oath Rod, implying that there was a major change in behavior which lead to a major change in their public perception from protectors of the Light and preservers of knowledge to manipulators, witches and darkfriends.

 

In fact given how little knowledge remains of the Ten Nations, it's quite possible that such programs did exist, and that this is where the Ajahs had their names and roles so deeply ingrained. The question then is what caused them to end? Presumably they were disrupted significantly by the Trolloc Wars as mentioned above, perhaps the Aes Sedai dropped the ball here because afterwards were too busy dealing with the drama surrounding the deposal of Tetsuan to trade in their political capital to keep their global influence going? But whatever the cause, it's still unbelievable given what we know that not one woman of power and influence in the Tower stepped up and said "hey, this is becoming a problem" and then did something about it over the ensuing 2000 years.

 

You do realise that there is a written record of what I said? That I can pull quotes from my posts t prove that as not my point.

 

 

Obviously?

 

 

I'm not inclined to etc etc. attitude etc etc.

 

Somehow I'll find it in myself to carry on. Instead of talking about attitude and he said/he said/he said and accusing me of putting up a Strawman without backing the accusation up, why not actually rebutt specific points? I can sit here and accuse you of all manner of fallacies or personality failings, but that's just an easy way to avoid actually addressing the point at hand. My attitude is not the topic of discussion, if you don't like it, stop participating in the discussion. I'm not holding a gun to your head.

 

"No matter what the AS do, that problem of people not being exposed to the OP in a positive manner remains. There are just too few of them to truly make it otherwise. While you can certainly make some gains most people will still not be exposed." (reply #38).

 

 

No it doesn't remain, if healing isn't the ultimate expression of positive exposure, then I don't know what is. And I've already pointed out a setup which would be a perfectly viable attempt (obviously it would have to be adjusted as events unfold, or depending on the era in which they attempt to integrate it, that's just the way of the world, but it would be rough outline for a solid start). Every time an Aes Sedai performs an act of altruistic kindness, acts in a manner which is kind and approachable, exposes people to the OP in a benevolent manner (even if that manner is just a small demonstration to show people that it's just a tool, an ability some people are born with, not something horrible), she's improving the image of the White Tower in the eyes of the world. It would be the work of hundreds of sisters over centuries, but they managed to ruin their reputation through acting one way (or not acting, arguably), they could have preserved and enhanced it by acting another.

 

 

"While they could do these things, they are just a drop in the ocean. Ultimately, they have too few AS to truly turn the tide by doing these things, and the benefits are only small."

 

 

Even at their worst, they have 1000-ish sisters. Even if less than 100 of them are Yellow (which is the second smallest Ajah), that's still enough to post one or two in every major city, have a few wandering and healing in each nation in the manner I described and still have some left over to rotate them out. If we go further back (which is when this logically should have happened) we have a greater number still, possibly double or triple if we go back to the TW - Hawking period or the Ten Nations before that. Furthermore one of the major benefits of such a program would be a massive, possibly exponential, increase in recruitment. We also saw how quickly the Salidar Aes Sedai rounded up novices just by actively recruiting in one relatively small area of the world, how many girls Verin and Alanna grabbed up in the Two Rivers who were in the right age bracket and capable of (and willing to) learning or on the verge of manifesting the spark, and mentioned several more too young or, in their eyes, too old, and we hear of at least one death from a girl with the Spark - imagine a global system of travelling sister who inform people of what the symptoms of manifesting the Spark are (so, you know, saving thousands, tens of thousands over a longer period of time, of potential Aes Sedai from a terrifying and protracted death) and offer the test. Given the population and the cited 1 - 3% of potential channelers, it's not unlikely that they would end up increasing their numbers 10x or more in the space of a century.

 

 

 

#40 - note the admission that it would help, which flatly contradicts your claim about what I actually said). The best you could argue would be this: "They'll be helping some people but not others, and the majority of people will not have access to AS help when they need it. You go to one of these AS hospitals, and get treated by a woman with some herbs, because the AS is too busy and must prioritise. She doesn't have time for you." (#40). But context matters, and in this case the specific context is about creating a positive,approachable image. I did not say they would generate negative publicity, I admitted that it would be good, but only limited in scope, and it would not really make them seem approachable.

 

 

If running healing centers where they actively interact in a friendly manner with the regular population and expose them to the OP in a positive way, or wandering around healing, interacting with the people and being open and informative with them, doesn't make them seem more approachable, nothing will. I've already admitted that there will always be a gap in trust due to the power differential (which is why so few Aes Sedai marry), especially since it's gender based, but the gap widened expontentially over time, it's not something inherent which is impossible to address.

 

I'm curious, what are your thoughts on a) how/why the Aes Sedai let their reputation on the world stage degrade from the aforementioned described situation in the era of the Ten Nations to what it is at the end of the Third Age, and b) how this could have been prevented or reverted, to the greatest degree possible? You seem happy to shoot down any ideas which would result in a situation which isn't exactly what is described in the books, but do you actually have any interesting thoughts on the matter or are you just offended by the notion that things could, maybe should, have been different than they were?

 

 

"Now consider the Greens - defending the Blightborder with but a handful of channelers is an impossibility.

 

 

No it isn't, because the Blight is defended "without" any channelers (or at least, without any constant and regulated Channeler presence) for centuries. However, adding Green sisters would mean less casualties, military and civilian, it would mean that the Aes Sedai would establish a firm reputation as defenders of the civilized world and the ultimate bane of the Shadow, that the Battle Ajah would actually take part in battles and not just talk a big talk (and gain experience for themselves and their Warders in the process), that the time spent training Greens and their Warders and the money they live off isn't just going to waste while they laze around the White Tower.

 

I also think you have a different definition of "a handful" than I do. The Greens are the second largest Ajah. At their least we're talking at least 100 women, possibly exceeding 200, and again, that's a number which could double or triple if we go back to the Trolloc Wars or further. Even if we go with the lowest estimate from the end of the Third Age, and assume only half the Ajah is on rotation at any one time, we've got 50 sisters. When Moiraine arrives at Fal Dara, Agelmar states "Moiraine Sedai... you would be worth a thousand lances in Tarwin’s Gap."

 

There are a few factors we have to take into account here before we draw any direct conclusions. Firstly, Moiraine is one of the most powerful Aes Sedai of the era. Given that Agelmar greets her familiarly and that we know she has ventured into the Blight at least once beforehand (that would have made a great short story...), it seems likely that he's witnessed her destructive capability personally - he was pretty specific in that comparison. Also, we don't know if she was using her Angreal when this took place, and he don't know how aware he is of the variability of Aes Sedai strength. So in terms of raw destructive potential, he could be overestimating Moiraine, let alone the average sister with no Angreal. On the other hand, he's one of the Great Captains, so he might have been aided by Aes Sedai more than once fighting the Shadow and have a fairly balanced assessment of their general tactical value (how much he knows about Wards, Healing, Invigoration, etc, we don't know, but we can assume if any special weaves exist for fighting the Shadow, the Greens possess them).

 

Even taking all that into account he's stating that what seems to be the "average" sister of the era - if I remember the power scale correctly, Moiraine is at 16/21, and the average sister of the era is a 12 to 15 - would still be worth hundreds of trained cavalry. Then there are the Warders, we can assume that each of them is worth a couple regular soldiers at the least. Then there's the ability both of them have to sense the presence of Shadowspawn, and aforementioned skills like Warding, Healing and Invigoration. Even aside from the destructive potential of the OP in battle, the presence of Aes Sedai on the Border would be a huge benefit in all the way's I've already mentioned, healing, re-energizing, Warding towns, forts or important strategic places, sensing sneak attacks in time to alert the other soldiers or the townspeople.

 

Nobody is saying they would drive the Blight back, but they would save thousands of lives, hundreds of thousands over the centuries. And importantly, they'd be seen doing so. Remember how much the Borderlanders respect Aes Sedai just from the memory of the Trolloc Wars and whatever small aid individual Aes Sedai have provided over the centuries. And that's not much that we hear of - even the legendary Cadsuane, a Green, is never mentioned to have actually fought on the Border, neither is Caraighan, one of the two legendary historical Greens cited, nor are either of the two most recent "Captain-General's" of the Ajah (I'm going off the wiki here, if there's textual evidence which goes against it, please cite it). In fact trying to think about it, the only Green we hear of actively fighting Shadowspawn at all between the end of the Trolloc War and the period after Dumai's Wells in which a number of sisters come into the service of Rand is Alanna, and even then it's not in the Borderlands, but in the Two Rivers, and it only took place by coincidence.

 

How much more respect and trust and honor would they earn, for themselves but more importantly for the Tower, if everyone knew a woman in a Green shawl was a woman who had patrolled the Blightborder and risked her life destroying Shadowspawn to save lives, defend humanity and hold back the Blight?

 

If you concentrate forces in certain locations then the Shadow can simply focus attacks elsewhere. If you spread out to cover more places, the Shadow attacks in force and you're overwhelmed.

 

The same can be said about any conflict along an extended border. The difference is that the presence of Aes Sedai provides all the benefits of warding, sensing Shadowspawn, reinvigorating scouts, healing refugees, etc etc. Of course not every Aes Sedai can do all of this, but it would add up over the whole of the portion of the Ajah in active service in an area - sisters who joined the Greens could train specially in these weaves, those with skill with these abilities and with combat could be guided towards the Green. They would be a Battle Ajah in truth, not just in name.

 

The AS are not in a position that has an easy solution, and their failures to do certain things are often understandable, because of the limited benefits of them." (#38).

 

Every benefit has limits. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be utilized. They could make a big difference if they actually worked their chosen jobs. If they don't want to fight the Shadow, they shouldn't join the self-proclaimed "Battle Ajah." You know what is of even more limited benefit than a Green Aes Sedai? A regular soldier defending humanity with a sword or a pike or a crossbow. But they defend the Borderlands anyway, without any channeling or special powers or enhanced fighting abilities. If they can do it, the Green Ajah can sure as hell chip in and make a difference.

 

 

"As for the Greens, you could imagine fifty sisters to each Borderland nation, but the problem remains - it's easy enough to strike where they aren't, unless they spread too thin in which case you strike hard enough to take out the AS."

 

You could say the same about every military force. "Why bother manning the Blightborder at all? The Trollocs will just come through where the Soldiers aren't..." It's an absurdly futilistic and short sighted view. The point is not that the Green Ajah would single handedly hold back the Blight, but that they would accompany groups of soldiers to fight off Trolloc incursions, to defend against raids, adding their extra firepower and their utility to detect the Shadowspawn faster, destroy them faster, undo the damage faster. Save lives, and livelyhoods. And be a visible presence doing it. Any one of the benefits I've mentioned would save hundreds of lives over the years - they would save hundreds of lives doing nothing but accompanying soldiers into battle and picking off the Myrdraal, both because any but the weakest sister can kill a Myrdraal with ease, but it takes several of your average soldier, even experienced Borderlanders, to do the same, and because killing the Myrdraal would destroy their hold over the Trollocs, who would be more likely to panic, flee or just fall into disorder and chaos, becoming easier to defeat.

 

 

Adding AS doesn't change the enemy, but it changes how they react - they go where there are no AS, or they attack with the intent of destroying the AS.

 

Aes Sedai are more than capable of defending themselves. Of course some will die, maybe many - but that's what happens in battles. If they didn't want to risk their life fighting the Shadow, they shouldn't have joined the "Battle Ajah."

 

As for dodging Aes Sedai, as I've already said, that's just silly. Of course they're going to try and dodge the people defending the Border, failing that, to kill them and their most valuable troops, that's how war works. Why do you think the Greens started taking multiple Warders? So they had more to defend them in the heat of battle while the enemy tried to pick them off. But the Aes Sedai have more tools for detecting Shadowspawn than Shadowspawn do for detecting Aes Sedai, and certainly more tools for destroying them.

 

You make the conflict worse by bringing in bigger guns and forcing the enemy to react - and your tangible gains are...?

 

Saved lives counting in the millions over the course of centuries, saved livelyhoods, towns, villages, cities, maybe nations. holding back the Shadow and being seen to do it, a reputation for standing in defense of humanity, civilization and the Light, Channelers already in place instead of having to travel from Tar Valon when something drastic happens.

 

More dead Greens, a more hostile Blightborder.

 

Soldiers die. The purpose of being a soldier is to risk your life fighting. If they don't want to die fighting the good fight, they should have picked a different career path. If Aes Sedai lives are too valuable to risk at all, the Green Ajah shouldn't exist.

 

 

Oh, and some good PR.

 

 

You mean like people actually trusting and respecting them so they don't have to bind themselves against murder and lying with a Ter'Angreal which has sat in storage for 1500 years? So they don't have to travel the world in disguise? So a militaristic organization doesn't pop up, seize control of an entire Nation, then claim that all Aes Sedai are blasphemous witches and manipulative darkfriends and deserve to die - then go about doing their damndest to make sure it happens?

 

 

Those Greens didn't die for nothing.

 

 

What Greens? When we open at EOTW we don't have a single example of a Green dying fighting the Shadow since the Trolloc Wars. I'm sure it's happened, I refuse to believe the Greens went 2000 years calling themselves the Battle Ajah and bonding a ton of Warders without actually going north to, you know, Battle the Shadow occasionally, but it's not happening on any regular, consistent or organized basis.

 

Stationing Greens permanently in the Borderlands is not choosing your battles wisely, it's forcing the Shadow to react, but with no idea how. That's poor strategy. Right now the raiding of the Borderlands is unfortunate, but the alternative is not any better - because they still get raided, or you provoke an outright war which costs them dearly - before you go back to more raiding. Or you get raided by people who are good at ambushing and killing AS.

 

Another futilistic argument, and one that doesn't take a realistic look at the situation. What we're talking about isn't an active war, it's a border between a dangerous, corrupt environment populated by violent, but stupid and selfish, genetically engineered monsters with no central leadership (excluding the Trolloc Wars), and the rest of Civilization. If the Shadow could push further south, they would do so just by instinct, but they lack the combination of leadership, organization and numbers to do so. Other than rare and specific incursions generally caused by weakness in the human defenses caused by specific events, it's bands of Trollocs lead by the Myrddraal they occasionally give birth to who try to cross the border to kill, destroy, kidnap and rape on pure instinct. There's no centralized leadership, little if any intercommunication. All they have going for them is their strength, brutality, numbers and the skill and apparently inborn leadership abilities of the Myrddraal.

 

This is not a situation where you have one set of generals and leaders planning against another, matching strategies and weapons, and the introduction of organized Green Aes Sedai presence wouldn't be an attempt to push the Blight back and take Shayol Ghul, it would be an attempt to minimize the damage that the raiding parties cause (and that's what they are, barring aforementioned rare occasions, they aren't planned incursions with a purpose organized by a leadership which would alter their strategy if they became less effective, they're an instinctive, barely planned flood towards where the humans which the Shadowspawn are genetically programmed to kill are), to save lives both by ending battles faster and sparing soldiers from dying and by detecting and catching these raiding parties faster and preventing them from destroying their targets and killing the population, an attempt to be seen doing so and thereby being recognized as defenders of humanity and enemies of the Shadow, an attempt to put the Green Ajah to work earning their keep and living up to their name instead of having them lazing around the White Tower wasting the training and money given to them by the Tower. It's a win/win/win situation (except for the raiding parties I guess).

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

you mean fatalistic.