Language Barrier

[Hannah Banana]

How did the Forsaken learn the "new" language after they were released into the world? They never speak with any trace of awkwardness ("I will... what is word? Uh... kill! Yes. I WILL KILL YOU!") or residual accent from having learned a new language.

 

Aginor and Balthamel pop up in EotW and can speak (well, Aginor at least) and understand the "New Tongue" (which I understand to have sprung up well after the AoL) with no noticeable hitches. Within months after that, all the other Forsaken are out and about, slipping into their new identities as nobles and whatever else. But no issues with a language barrier are ever brought up in any of their PoVs.

 

(OT remark: best criticism of current Age--"The Great Lord only knows what else is crawling toward us by horse, or sheep, or whatever else these savages can find to carry a message." That's why I love ya Demandred.)

 

Ishamael is understandable, since he's been around periodically after the AoL.

[Meliane]

I thought one of the lady Forsaken made reference to how easy it was to pick up the language of the new time period, since the new time period is so primitive. But I agree that it seems improbable that the Forsaken would be able to speak it instantly, however primitive, because the Old Tongue is so vastly different from the new way. Ah well.

[Hannah Banana]

I don't remember that reference... you don't happen to remember whereabouts you read it, so I can check it out? *hopeful*

[Silver]

Graendal i believe... when she was forging a letter... think.. Sammael came to visit her too?

[Roxinos]

Week 14 Question: If the Forsaken were sealed away in Shayol Ghul since the Age of Legends, with no contact with the outside world, wouldn't they be speaking the Old Tongue when they woke back up? How did they learn the Common Tongue?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case.

 

For the rest (aside from Ishamael), who spend those thousands of years in a dreamless sleep, the language spoken "here and now" was derived from the Old Tongue. I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already. In the case of the Forsaken, the task is actually easier than that of the ancient Roman, since modern Italian is a more complex language than Latin, while the Old Tongue, as I have said time and again, is more complex and nuanced than the language of "today."

 

Taken from: http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

Basically that says that the Old Tongue and the language of Randland are similar as the Old Tongue is the root language of the language we're reading and they merely picked it up after hanging out in the Third Age for a while. Which supports what Meliane said. And the only reason I didn't use the book is because it's much harder for me to find where that would be in the book.

[Hannah Banana]

Thanks for posting that. It sort of answers the question, if you read between the lines.

 

I still don't know that that's said or implied anywhere in the books at all, though. I just can't remember that being brought up.

[FelixA9]

Consider also that the Foxes gave Matt the ability to read & speak the old tongue. Certainly the Dark One could do the same to his Chosen in order to help them function effectively in the here and now.

[Hannah Banana]

Consider also that the Foxes gave Matt the ability to read & speak the old tongue. Certainly the Dark One could do the same to his Chosen in order to help them function effectively in the here and now.

 

Hm' date=' yes. That is an interesting possibility as well...[/color']

[Luckers]

I still don't know that that's said or implied anywhere in the books at all, though. I just can't remember that being brought up

 

In the scene where Graendal is writting orders to Interulde she thinks on how easy the modern script is to master and fake.

 

Consider also that the Foxes gave Matt the ability to read & speak the old tongue. Certainly the Dark One could do the same to his Chosen in order to help them function effectively in the here and now

 

No, RJ has made it quite clear that the Forsaken, aside from Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael intellectually learned the language since escaping. It would not be all that hard either, given that the old tongue would likely be more convaluted as languages of cultures in high states of average education usually are. The New Tongue, being a more simplistic derivative of that language would not be terribly hard to learn.

[Hannah Banana]

In the scene where Graendal is writting orders to Interulde she thinks on how easy the modern script is to master and fake.

 

Yes' date=' I know she talks about how the script of that day is easy to handwrite. I [i']knew[/i] of that scene ("It would have been nice to need only speak the words, but actually putting them on paper with her own hand produced a pleasure akin to that she felt in sketching. The script of this Age was quite simple, and learning to duplicate another's style had been no more difficult."). However, that's not the same as thinking "Oh how easy this Common Tongue is to learn, both orally and in written form." She's merely reflecting how easy it is to handwrite the new language, and specifically to forge it as someone else's hand.

 

Something like THAT verbiage is what I was inquiring to see if one of them had mentioned.

[Roxinos]

So what I'm getting from what you're saying is that you expect the Forsaken to have some difficulty either finding the words when they're speaking, even though you know they've commented on how easy it was to learn to write in the language of the day (and if you can write in a language, you can think in that language; and if you can write well, you don't have problems finding the appropriate words), or you expect them to have some sort of accent.

 

And I don't see why an accent would be necessary. Or why they wouldn't be able to just as easily copy an accent of a people as Graendal is of copying a person's script. In fact, I think it'd be more difficult to copy a person's handwriting because that handwriting is specific to a single person and not entire countries like an accent is.

[Hannah Banana]

No.

 

I was asking if there was a place in the books where the Forsaken ever said anything about learning to speak the new language, at all, easy or difficult.

 

I knew of the scene where she said it was easy to write. We KNEW at that point that she'd learned to speak the language seamlessly, so why should writing it be any different.

 

I wanted to back up a step.

 

And the supposition of an accent stems from the fact that almost anyone who learns a new language speaks it with halting difficulty at first (giving the appearance of accented speech, and/or grasping for words). But, I haven't had occasion to personally listen to someone from ancient Rome who has learned to speak modern Italian and asked them how easy it was. So I'll take RJs word on it. It makes as much sense as anything else.

[Roxinos]

Is there any mention in the books? Perhaps not. But what is the nitpickery with wanting to know if there is a specific part in the book which refers to the Chosen learning to speak the tongue of 'today'? Robert Jordan says that they picked it up with ease. Graendal mentions how easy it was to learn to write it. Speaking and writing.

 

Also, you mention that someone who picks up a new language speaks it haltingly at first. This may be true, but we don't know how long the Forsaken have been freed, so they have probably had plenty of time to develop a mock accent, as I said before. An accent is much easier to pick up than a handwriting style. And if you can develop an accent and you know how to copy a person's handwriting, the chances of you speaking haltingly are slim-to-none.

 

I still don't see a reason why you want to know if there was a part in the book which references the Chosen learning the language of 'today'. Why did you want to back up a step?

 

Ah hell, I'm just pushing a moot point. *shrug* Forgive if I sound a tad hostile.

[Hannah Banana]

No, I understand it's not a point that was crucial to the plot of the book.

 

Nitpicking? Perhaps. But like so many little things in a fantasy series, once you think about it, you can't stop until it's reasonably explained. It's just one of those things like... if this is some far-off fantasy world (not referring to WoT here), why do they have... squirrels? Weird things like that.

 

When I posted this, I wasn't aware that it had already been asked and [pretty-much] answere in a Question of the Week. So that's that.

 

My only other inquiry was that someone kept saying it was in the books somewhere, how easily they learned to speak the new language. And I wanted to know where I had missed that. I knew about the Graendal quote from above. I was just wondering if there was something ELSE. Which I guess there's not. So... that pretty much lays it to rest.

[Luckers]

I'm afraid i dont get your problem. You quote the part where she implies that learning the language was easy... she states faking a specific style had been no more dificult [then mastering the script of this age]....

 

If your looking for things to be wrapped up in a neat little package for you, i think you need a new hobby.

[Jellybelly]

Pretty much agree with Luckers. This information is peripheral to the series, and does not need to be further explained in the books themselves. It is the type of question that is extraneous "on screen" but is interesting to have answered by the author.

 

Suffice it to say that we have enough factors comprised of textual evidence and authorial remarks to piece the puzzle together.

 

1) The Forsaken are highly intelligent individuals, and must be assumed to be recipients of excellent education and study techniques, as they rose to prominence in a world that most likely had universal education.

 

2) The current language is a derivative of a language mastered by the Forsaken.

 

3) The langauge the Forsaken knew was much more complex, which makes the learning curve drop drastically as you already have most of the lexicon, albeit in altered forms, grammar and morphology. Basically the basic parts of a language.

 

From this we must draw the conclusion that the language would be easy to learn by the Forsaken, and coupled with Graendal's comments, we know that such is the case.

 

To perhaps expand on that, we can build a very brief linguistic argument for the ease of learning experienced by the Forsaken. In terms of morphology, the first thing characterizing a lessening of complexity in the development of a language, the most notable thing is the loss of inflections (cp. Old English with Modern English). That is the loss of grammatical endings of words as well as grammatical categories such as case and grammatical gender. Given that we know the Old Tongue is more complex than the new one, it is likely that the Old Tongue went through a similar transformation where words were basically made simpler to handle.

 

Another factor is the fact that as there has been a regression of every aspect involved with society, which must have led to a very low rate of influx of new words. Real life has demonstrated that new words are invented to describe new things, and it seems probably that for all intents and purposes, Randland would already have all the words they needed to describe the phenomena around them. There would not be a lot of loan words coming into the language, either, as the Old Tongue was universal.

 

To sum up then, learning the current language for the Forsaken, must have been much like learning a much less complex variant of a language they already knew well. There is no need for RJ to comment explicitly on that in the books themselves.

[Graendals favourite]

As a lesser point, I recall that Balthamel apparently has some trouble writing the new script yet. Egwene commented to herself that she had seen the woman's hand, and it resembled a farmwife's who could barely write, and thought it strange because Halima was supposed to be a secretary. (And of course she just decided Delana was keeping her as a charity...)

 

Another thought is, as far as I remember, the Forsaken don't speak to the wetlanders in a very complicated way, I think. Certainly compared with some Aes Sedai, I think. Anyway, that's the impression I've gotten, I don't remember for certain.

[Hannah Banana]

You're right. You don't get it. So run along elsewhere now.

[Graendals favourite]

I'm not really the right person to consider this, but I reread what Sammael said in CoS: Insects.

 

First off, he says, "Ruminating?", which is not the most common word, I've never seen it anywhere else 8), but then it needn't really be that.

To me it looks possible that he phrases some things with an accent of sorts. Remembering how Mat's phrases look like when he unknowingly speaks the Old Tongue, there may be something similar there.

Like in: "Your search is the most important thing, the only thing, so far as you are concerned. Cauthon's death would be convenient, certainly, but not if it draws attention here. If it appears that attention is already here, should he take an interest in your search, then he dies, but otherwise, he can wait."

or: "There is very little luck in you, Carridin," Sammael said with another smile. "You had better hope you have more carrying out my orders. It seems that someone is making sure at least some of Ishamael's commands are still carried out."

Do those sound like just normal turns of phrase, or someone who thinks formulates what he wants to say in for the Old Tongue but then turns it into the vulgar tongue? That is, tending to use elaborate phrases like one might in writing, with perhaps less elaborate words?

[Luckers]

Agreed. And note the comments made about Semirhage's accent and so forth. They may have mastered the language, but the cultural nuances are different.

 

You're right. You don't get it. So run along elsewhere now.

 

Is that directed at me? what was the relevance?

[Hannah Banana]

Luckers. Just let it go. God forbid I should desire a logical answer to a random question. I've received the answer. There was a related question based on something someone said here, which has also been answered to the extent it's going to be. I no longer require any input from the peanut gallery. kthxbye.

[Luckers]

Your requirements arn't really of interest to me, but in the interest of clarity, you do realise my point was about the fact that RJ doesn't ever state things bluntly.

 

But whatever. Enjoy the bee you have in your bonet.

[Hannah Banana]

Your requirements arn't really of interest to me' date=' but in the interest of clarity, you do realise my point was about the fact that RJ doesn't ever state things bluntly.

 

But whatever. Enjoy the bee you have in your bonet.[/quote']

 

There is no bee in my 'bonet'. That is why I am irked that we are continuing to snipe at each other. This is a non-issue. It has been laid to rest. Fin.