[Basic]: Be Nice Mafia

[Thane Vakarian]

i have a message for the last wolf...

 

[Songstress]

There was no party feeling in the room. How could it be when one or maybe more were lying. They were going to have find the naughty ponies before Pinkie Pie exploded. 

 

Then one pony pointed at Princess Celestia. "Look! Look at her hooves! There are cake crumbs!" The room went totally quiet. The ponies stared at Princess Celestia´s hooves, it was right, there were cake crumbs!!! How could she? She was their beloved, always perfect princess.

 

"Okay, I admit. I´m so sorry, Fluttershy. I saw this wonderful cake and I just couldn´t help myself. I´ll leave the party but I hope to be back to make up to you. Maybe I can buy an even bigger cake?"

 

The ponies smiled. "Of course I will forgive you", Fluttershy said. I agree that the cake looks wonderful. She hugged Princess Celestia. I hope to see you soon.

 

Princess Celestia was just about to leave the room when she said: "Oh, and I must say that I don´t think I´m the only one who tasted the cake. I don´t think I took a bite that large." Then she was gone. 

 

The ponies looked at each other. Seriously? Had someone else eaten the cake as well?!

 

 

 

 

Yates, Princess Celestia, mafia goon has left the room. 

 

It´s now N2. Deadline for na´s is Wednesday 9 PM. That is about 27 hours from now. 

 

Nicest lynch scene ever.  

[Cass]

Well done Tress! Sorry-not-sorry Yates, but GG both of you   

Also. Whew!


 

 

mislynch -> cass dies -> 3/2 lylo.

Impatient and a pessimist - I feel I have learned a lot about you.

 

 

I picked this up in my re-reads too.

 

Y'all have no idea how paranoid I was until that flip that both of you here may have had me fooled me and were playing me for scum... lol

Sili, I'm still not quite so sure...

 

 

 

I have some other stuff pulled out to post but I need to think about stuff and re-read this EoD and make sure I get my connections right etc, and apparently I now also need to go look deeper into Clov...again   

I'll sleep on it and see you all later in the morning! 

[Thane Vakarian]

Tress, just so you know, i wanted to tell you: good job

[Songstress]

Well done Tress! Sorry-not-sorry Yates, but GG both of you   

 

 

 

Tress, just so you know, i wanted to tell you: good job

 

Thanks

 

What was really funny was that I was blowing up Tina's PM box with my ranting during night phase, trying to decide between viewing Yates (because of the permanent tinfoil insert in my brain where he is concerned) and Sili, who I really thought was more likely.  I considered the "view from the top, lynch from the bottom" school of thought, and decided to throw all of that out the window and go for Yates, because I figured I'd regret it if I didn't.

 

And I definitely would have regretted it.

[BFG]

Good evening :)

 

Just went for a VC, nice work!

[Thane Vakarian]

@Yates: you had a good game. Bravo. *applauds* 

[Thane Vakarian]

good evening BFG

[BFG]

This actually makes me feel really good about my reread from Day 1, unfortunately I didn't have strong feelings for the second.

 

I'm going to start from where I got to yesterday first and see if there's anything I need to address, before reading through again :)

[Clovdyx]

Not going to bother checking his spew against Tress.  If she threw him off the cliff to make herself look better, more power to her.  This is all from page one, and it's not everything, just the things that stand out to me.  Obviously I won't be looking at myself, since I'm probably not going to case myself, and trying to spew myself clear is bush league.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

But if your read on Cass is also tentative, why didn't you caveat it the same way and instead used the caveat that she would be town unless she's played some games as mafia?

Sili-Cass scum team? Is possible.

 

 

 

TBH though Sili, I find this question slightly odd coming from you...

You wilfing against me again?

Sili and Virgin scum in an awkward distancing/buddying Tango? Oh yeah. I can definitely see it.

 

 

Second and third posts begins pushing Sili and Cass as scum.

 

 

 

Kinda feels like the same as my first game where the Scum mostly said 'I have her as Town,' and then carefully insinuated it was possible I could be Scum because it was plausible that I could be being helped. The doubt that move cast over the rest of Town haunted/followed me for the whole freaking game.

FTR - it was Town that brought up the possibility of you being scum in that game. I bring this up only in an effort to prevent confusion regarding potential narrative spinning accusations that could follow.

See? That's me being nice to a new mafia player! Go me!

 

 

 

I'm pretty darn sure it was Kiv, and thus Scum, that got that ball rolling. Can't do it right now but I'll try and find the link tonight... If I'm right, Yates, that's not exactly how I'd go about defining 'nice'.

Nope. It was Darthe. I only remembered because I had a good chuckle about it and I think we mentioned something in the scum QT about how nice it was to have Town doing our dirty work.     
 

FWIW I really don't like people pairing me with Sili at this point, considering he's openly the one I've found most sus (Sorry Sili if I'm tinfoiling again).

Don't worry about it too much. It's early in the game and just a running theory based on a page and half or so of content. Be yourself and post naturally. I think this kind of paranoia is probably a good look for you though and exactly what I was trying to extract from you. Tentative early Town lean. That's a carrot for you!

 

With that said, I *do* want to help you out.

Ok *gets serious* Have sat down and re-read to here (Thane's post #80).

In a nutshell, my gut reads this far are that Sili, followed by possibly Clov and Yates, are coming across somewhat wilfish.

I'm going to leave the Sili read alone because you have explained it. I'll also let Clov talk to you about your read on him. What's the "wilfish" lean on me? Is it because I tied you to Sili? If that's the sum total of your suspicion, I feel compelled to offer some unsolicited advice [obviously this is all assuming you are Town, as I suspect]. First, don't immediately assume that someone is scummy just because they call you scummy. Look at the logic behind it and the motivation. Do a fair assessment. If you don't, you get accused of "oh my gosh you stink!" [OMGUS - edited for ponies]. And second, don't worry too much about how you look. Just post your unfiltered thoughts. If you are Town, you can always explain your thoughts as being Town driven because, guess what, they are Town driven.

Keep going with your Sili case. I'm looking forward to seeing how the two of you interact going forward and given some flips.

 

 

 

 

(Darthe was scum)

  Oh crap.  I forgot he was!  Not that it makes a big difference.  So you were wrong about it being Kiv and I was wrong about it being Town.  *shrug*  Point is, it didn't *have* to be scum that had brought that up.  I was lynched in my most recent Town game because of POE "just in case" there was a GF because I guess people thought I was the only one that could be a GF. [incidentally, that's the last game I played with Sili scum and he was lynched D2]  Point being, never underestimate the power of Townfoil.

Are you buddying me?/Is this normal behaviour for you as Town?

I'm buddying everyone. This is a friendly game. I'm a friendly guy. As far as "is it normal" for me? Sure. Why not? I will be friendly to scum suspects to see if I can get them to slip and I will be friendly to Obv Town because they are obv Town. You've only played with me once, right? In the game where I was killed N1 because the SK was scared I was the Cop? [lol] This, from that same game, is what a Yates Town post looks like on D1. I just happened to choose my first content post of the game but it should give you an idea. I'm not typically all that prickly unless/until I have to be.

@Everyone
I understand the advice/warnings/implications that it's unnecessary/can sound scummy, and I have explained this before, but it is a RL, inherent character flaw of my personality that I hate being wrong/being misunderstood.

Don't worry about it. I've likely given you all the advice I plan on giving you. You are officially a mafia veteran. Good luck!

 

 

This doesn't look like mafia/mafia interaction to me.  There's very little "hunting" in discussing which side pushed Cass first in a previous game, so this seems more like Yates was just trying to get words in the thread than actually figure stuff out.  If Cass wanted to bring it up as his teammate, I think they could have coordinated in scumchat well enough that Yates wouldn't get corrected about Darthe's alignment.

 

 

 

I dont think i would read me as a wolf if i knew me so i dont see what u see tress.

I might have agreed with you prior to seeing you wolf recently. But since I have? I'm Team-Tina on this. It's early. Just be you.

I think Yates was fielding for responses... like, the pairings were absurd.

Objectively you look very good if I flip scum.

A couple of thoughts here:
1. Let's say for the sake of argument that you are correct about me "fielding for responses." Now I know that you are already aware of it and adjusting responses accordingly. Plus, you haven't actually responded to the connection/accusation other than to acknowledge it and claim the "pairings were absurd." I'd really like it if you could stop being so guarded [like you have something to hide] and just freestyle rap wit me a bit.

2. The pairings aren't absurd to me. Your interaction didn't look like the interaction of two people that don't know each other's alignments. I happen to agree with Cass on one point; the way you treated her vs. the way you treated Clov was very different. Would you please [and thank you in advance] explain the rationale there in a way that makes some sense to me?

3. That "if I flip scum" stuff always pings. Rhetorical question: You don't know if you will flip scum or not? That's why your answer to question #2 will help me decide if we can frolic in the stream of Equestria together or if you need to be sent to the glue factory to be turned into glitter paste.

 

 

Another few pot shots at Sili.  Bold reads like basic dirt kicking, rather than anything actually worth going on.  

 

For the first point, I don't know that Yates would prod a teammate like that.  Sili already said they were absurd.  Seems like something I'd let go?

 

 

 

I don't associate town Thane with 'guarded' play or words...

Welp. That's the one tell I was hinting at in my Thane post.

What do you make of the fact that Sili is talking to you as if he knows you are Town given your [and his] statement here???

 

<<<deleted>>>

His latest post:

 

Truth. I am very much taking that mindset, especially with Sili, since I tunneled him for a while last game 

like, he knows i'm town, otherwise the matter of tunneling me when I'm scum wouldn't be significant to him. Why not tunnel me again, right?

 

Good point, and quoted again so he doesn't miss it.

 

I find it quite curious that Sili only has one vote given that so many people are finding him scummy, but I don't know what to make of it given the size of the game, I think I'll need to sleep on it.

Curious? Couple of thoughts here:
1. Just because Sili is holding a fork, it doesn't mean he stole the cake.
2. It's WAY early in the game.
3. Curse of the small game. I think people tend to be more cautious with votes in small games.

Now I have a Sili-BFG relationship to resolve...

 

 

 

 

 

Part 1, since I had too many quotes.

[Clovdyx]

Part 2, picks up immediately where I left off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

yates, where do i treat bfg like she's lock town?

All of page 7, basically. It sounds like you know her alignment or she knows yours. Just the way you are approaching her questions. I don't know. I'll go into more detail tomorrow. I'm spent.

 

 

Here he seems to continue running with the Sil team theory, having shifted it from Cass to BFG.  The bottom part of the first looks slightly bad for Sili, since he spent so much time building a "solve" that had Sili in it, only to suddenly defend him.  

 

Underline I'm torn on.  Part of me wants to clear BFG from it (though it's a conditional on Sili, it kinda reads like TMI from what we know now), and part of me thinks this was a distancing thing.  If Mafia!BFG died first, he could point out that he caught her TMI slip to make himself look better.

 

Second post is another shot at Sili being scum, who he just semi-defended from BFG's pressure??

 

 

 

 

You played with Jmm last game? What's your opinion of him this game?

I'll let you know when I have one. I think he's going to be a hard read. Last game I thought he was scummy because he was "completely apathetic" and didn't "offer the thread an iota of actual game content to demonstrate he's read it in any detail." Plus, throughout the entire game he was never really "actively hunting for scum."

Yates, why are you linking everyone to Sili?

EVERYONE??? No, not everyone. I linked you to Sili and Cass to Sili. That's not everyone, that's two people. And I linked you because you were linked. I have a read on Cass that is separate from Sili so she has been successfully decoupled. The interaction between you two is my new shiny object, as per above.

 

 

I don't know what to do with this.   Top doesn't really do much for me.  Maybe a townie point to BFG for asking a reasonable question, but could easily be scum-on-scum.  The all caps response seems overdone.  Considering how he handled other people, that might be a distancing thing.

 

This next one is chopped. 

 

 

You promised you would go into detail how I treat Bfg as town. The most I think you can say is we cooperate to meet an ends, and that's pretty much all I got from reading thrice. You'll have to help me.

Best laid plans of mice and men. I'm just going to call it "tone" rather then spend the 1000 words it would take to explain why that appears to be the case.
 

The point is linking players to me is a good part of your content, and so I ask, how is insinuating scum partners without case building early day 1 without a single flip conducive to hunting scum?

I was being cheeky with you and Cass. Really, I was trying to coax a reaction out of you two, as you already suspected. Cass fell for it and I think her reaction was on point. So she got the first Equestria Town Carrot. Your response is automagically void because you knew what I was doing and admitted to it.

Your tone with BFG, given your stated opinion of her alignment, struck me ass odd and is a completely separate event. It's just coincidence, really, that it happened to be you. Again. Or, maybe it's not coincidence so much as simple math.

 

Red here is him just completely dodging Sili's question.

 

Bold is more dirt kicking.

 

 

 

 

Based on his first page of content, I'll say Cass isn't his teammate.  Sili is highly unlikely to be aligned with him.  BFG is a potential for me.

[BFG]

Does bfg enjoy being scum?

 

 

 

why a BFKey wagon?

BFG doesn't really enjoy being Mafia and she's been super invisible and had one ~real impact in a WoT post and I think that's supposed to be "good Mafia play" here (to have long, content-driven posts) but nothing in there was particularly special and non-consensusy or retread of things other people have said before. She always seems more relaxed as a villager and writes cute little poems and talks from the heart and that's absent here

 

Key hasn't had a single post that's out of her wolf range and doesn't seem to be all that interested in moving things forward

 

Cory knows me pretty well, he's not lying about me hating being mafia. (although to put that game in context my low content was due to a posted LOLA in the signup thread - that's *why* I was hydra'ing (& Key )). Someone else brought it up as well (maybe Des?)

 

I can also point you to a mafia QT where we chat about our favourite roles in mafia (the game was I'm SG so you can't read the game unless you're a member)

[BFG]

Above quote is from the Marlton game for reference

[BFG]

Marlfox,

[Thane Vakarian]

marlfox yeah... i died in that one....

[BFG]

Good evening :)

 

during lunch I wrote my thoughts on Day 1, I haven't read Day 2 yet... no internet at all at work so I've marked places where the notes I had didn't cover the detail I wanted and I need to ISO, but i'd rather catch up on the last 10 pages or so first.

Milestone marker I'm where I came in yesterday

[Thane Vakarian]

you got an entire night to catch up

[BFG]

marlfox yeah... i died in that one....

I genuinely felt awful about that, it was the first time I've ever read you as town correctly on Day 1 and I end up lynching you anyway because I'm too tired to think and not caught up in the thread. I actually asked Krak to apologise to you in the DT, but I'm not sure he did

[Thane Vakarian]

we actually bet if i'd make it past D1 that game, he still owes me a beer.

[BFG]

I didn't think I was doing too badly until yesterday :)

[Thane Vakarian]

well, i think we can all suspect who will be NK'd this night ( sorry Tress  )

 

Even so, we'll be 4 vs 1. Cass is town to me, i'm town, i need to find one more townie so we can get victory.

[BFG]

Not necessarily.

 

One of the open setups is for 9 players; 2 mafia, Odd Night Cop, Even Night Doc. The loss of a mislynch sorta counters having 2 out of 6 instead of 2 out of 7 'named' townies.

 

Anyways.

[BFG]

 

Good morning :)

 

I got caught up rereading yesterday. Unfortunately I don't have time to write my thoughts before work. I more or less finished Day 1, there are a couple of pages I skimmed through which I want to check.

 

A couple of things, Tress, Clov why were you voting No Lynch. I understand your not wanting it to go random argument, but my experience in these sort of games is that people will consolidate at the end of day.

 

Cass, you don't seem to like me asking vig/cop/doc... it's a way of finding out what people think... vig strongest suspect, cop person most unsure of/second strongest suspect (bit more complicated as there are lots of reasons to cop someone), doc strongest town suspect... I don't feel like at the time I had much info to go on for those 2.

Sorry missed this yesterday. You were right that it stood/stands out to me as something to be wary of. I can see the benefit of it (and thanks for going to the effort to explain), I'm just wary that it's probably at least equally as useful as a strategy for scum as it is for Town, and I don't really have much to go on for you, as it stands.

 

Where do you stand?

 

This actually bugs me. Can you explain what you mean by 'not having a lot to go on?' this game in particular given the small player base I've been working hard to post more and be more involved, so for people to 'still' say I'm posting infrequently (Sili), not much to go on (you) is really frustrating.

[Yates]

"I saw this wonderful cake and I just couldn´t help myself. I´ll leave the party but I hope to be back to make up to you. Maybe I can buy an even bigger cake?"

Moar caek???    

 

 

*The Princess has left the party*

[BFG]

 

Can the people town reading Yates give their opinion on the above as well? (I suspect this is how Cass felt wrt Sili Day 1 and possibly still does)

 

Sure.  I'm townreading him because once he started explaining things, he seemed to be coming from a similar mindset as me, and the questions he's asking seem to be driving at better understanding/solve.  There are some things we've taken different approaches on, but I can at least understand where he's coming from.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, Yates, i know you appreciate games we're both in, and you're quite capable in reading me, but don't try to buddy too hard, might be suspicious   

You need to check out the beer thread.  I had a super rare Belgian beer the other night and thought of you...   

 

My plan is to pocket you.  See how you respond.  Serious question; when is the last time I read you wrong?  I want to see that comfortable, free thinking, shoot from the hip Thane Town so I'm setting you up for it.  And if a "Be Nice" game isn't the proper format to get you to that place, I don't know what is.

 

 

 

 

 

This came off as strange to me, but I was willing to give him some room to work.  I've never been good at reading Thane, and his free thinking/shoot from the hip approach is what usually gets him in trouble with me.  Yates doesn't necessarily have this problem so once I was able to establish what he had in mind, it seemed coming from a townie-POV (encouraging Thane to open up).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You claim she's a scum lean but you treat her as Town. Do you not recall this discussion?

You didn't, as far as I can tell, imply anything like that.

 

Not to make this into too big of a deal but, what?? You claim you called BFG a scum suspect. I acknowledge that. I read it. It's pretty clear. Then you go on to respond to BFG throughout all of Page 7 in a tone that suggests [to me] you already know she's Town. [Granted; tone reading is a skill I'm trying to hone.] So when you claim I never "commented" on the fact that you called BFG a scum read, you are missing the fact that it is implied that I'm commenting on it when I ask BFG what she thinks about you treating her like you know she's Town. This question only really makes sense if I already know that you called her scummy and thus your tone made the question pertinent given your stated read. Follow?

 

You eschew,

I'm waiting for my scum list to town tell, then I'll start over by adjusting my expectations and rereading.

 

Yeah. Pretty much. I actually kind of wait for ANYONE to Town tell to a degree I recognize so I can focus my scum hunting elsewhere. I kind of pride myself on not Town tunneling and think I've done a pretty decent job of late. That's how I accomplish that feat. But what's the point of this statement [accusation?]?

 

 

From your quoted excerpts, coded blue. I had bfg as scum by poe. It was not a strong stance and I was looking for reasons to change my mind. I imply this by the quote you left out and my inclusion of clov as a scum lean.

What did I leave out? It's possible I misunderstood something or wasn't following your train of thought...

 

You promised you would go into detail how I treat Bfg as town. The most I think you can say is we cooperate to meet an ends, and that's pretty much all I got from reading thrice. You'll have to help me.

Best laid plans of mice and men. I'm just going to call it "tone" rather then spend the 1000 words it would take to explain why that appears to be the case.

 

The point is linking players to me is a good part of your content, and so I ask, how is insinuating scum partners without case building early day 1 without a single flip conducive to hunting scum?

I was being cheeky with you and Cass. Really, I was trying to coax a reaction out of you two, as you already suspected. Cass fell for it and I think her reaction was on point. So she got the first Equestria Town Carrot. Your response is automagically void because you knew what I was doing and admitted to it.

 

Your tone with BFG, given your stated opinion of her alignment, struck me ass odd and is a completely separate event. It's just coincidence, really, that it happened to be you. Again. Or, maybe it's not coincidence so much as simple math.

 

It's pure tinfoil right?

See? You did it again. Now you are treating ME like you know I'm Town. It can't be "tinfoil" unless you know I'm Town.

 

Like, say I flip Scum, what are you going to do - lynch bfg because we worked together for a page? From a villager's point of view (e.g. mine) it seems frivolous and maybe destructive depending on the roster's gullibility, because I could very well be in anti-spew and as a matter of fact, scum treating a player like town usually means that player is town.

 

Like jmm has been doing for me.

 

And you say I've been doing for bfg.

I agree with the bold. If you were to flip scum, I would think that would clear me, BFG, and Cass [to a lesser degree]. At least it would weigh favorably in my evaluation of BFG and Cass's alignments.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't really get this impression at all from their interactions.  There is something that stood out to me, but I'm hoping you can give an example or explain what you mean before I show it.

As I told Sili, it's mostly tone. Let me see if I can pull up a quote or two that really emphasizes what I mean...

 

Okay, here's I think the exchange that felt too familiar to me:

 

Lol, misunderstood what you said, I agree with the general meta on Thane. I disagree with 'the wolf' though, it reads as a continuation of 'teh mafia' started by Tress and thus a deliberate use of words and not an unconscious use.

ah i see. i'm still leaning town on him but i'm a little more scared now. i'll be watching him carefully.

Sure. MAYBE Sili is just "working together," as he says. But something about that doesn't feel natural if Sili is assuming BFG is scum.

 

But the other thing that bothers me is the same thing I just busted Sili for:

Sili, given 2 mafia who are you most likely to tinfoil on at the moment?

Here, BFG is assuming Sili is Town. That's why I said earlier that it felt like at least one of them knew the other's alignment. And it's not like BFG really went after Sili. That whole page reads like a limp distancing argument. And that's in my minus column for BFG. This isn't really something I was prepared to talk about but it seems as though the cat's out of the bag so let's make it public and discuss...

 

 

 

 

 

Here, he's viewing the interactions between Sili and you with a similar mindset of my own.  You can probably justify the tinfoil discussion as semantics if you want, but I think there's some substance to it.  If you come into a thread and immediately view somebody as scum, is that tinfoiling?  IMO no - because you're not reading them as town.  If I was to start worrying about someone like Cass - that is, somebody I've been strongly supporting the entire game - without a major change, THAT would be tinfoil.

 

For you to approach Sili the way you did, it made it seem like you had a considerably stronger stance on his alignment than you should have.  I think you answered well enough to lower my suspicions, but obviously Yates saw the same thing I did* so I get the feeling he's trying to make the same sort of conclusions I am.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you explain??

Not to speak for Clov but I'm going to because I almost made the same post. Using your example; we are assuming there are 2 scum in 5 slots. That's a 40% chance of hitting scum discounting game play. Another way of looking at it is that there's a 60% chance of hitting Town. If we *do* hit Town, we are in MYLO on DAY 2 with, in theory, only 1 investigation result. If that result is an innocent? We're pretty much screwed.

 

The only reason I didn't bring this up is because we are almost equally screwed if scum guess right and kill the cop tonight since our doc [assuming we have a protective role] has their worst chance of protecting the cop on N1. But, of course, the cop is also more likely to investigate the person we would have lynched and if that person is scum, we bought scum an extra night.

 

But as I think it through further, scum have in theory a 2/6 chance of killing a Town PR if we no lynch and a 2/5 chance of killing a Town PR if we mislynch [assuming we don't mislynch a PR!].

 

I'm having a de ja vu moment discussing optimal play...

 

 

 

 

 

He ended up (temporarily) flopping in favor of a lynch due to the thought of it going random, but he seems concerned about extending the game for the best scenario at endgame.  He's a smart enough dude to do that as scum, sure, but it's at least a pro-town mindset.  

 

This phase, he's been asking questions to try to probe Sili and Tress' minds (why Sili commented on Jmm's death the way he did/why Tress left it where she did).  These COULD be used as set-up questions, but he's been following up with them frequently and I just don't feel he's been painting either in a way that deliberately makes them look worse than they should.

 

Heh :)

 

I'll respond because I do appreciate your reply!

 

Even before his flip I'd have to disagree with how helpful Yates was with explaining his reads.

 

That addition to the tinfoil argument actually makes your last post previously on that make more sense, so thanks again. I'd argue at this point that all Yates had on thread that you didn't was that Silk had TMI on me, he then +1'd your suspicion on me (I remember him coming into the discussion after).

 

Day 2 he did seem more 'open', but my initial post was just from Day 1.