[Standard] 11/10 Top Tier Vanilla+ Game Thread

[Thane Vakarian]

you're absolutely welcome Darthe, though i'm more worried about being NK'd by you than you should fear being targeted by me during the night... 

[DPR]

I think it's being brought up over and over because some townies are legit confused and the scum want to rolefish.  People need to play better.

 

Please post an example of a player that has been confused over "Seer Cover". 

 

To me, all I see is unnecessary re-explanations of the term made in an effort to prove what a swell guy Yates is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This seems emo to me - it's a simple error and your quote isn't tagged. Either way, my point is that you choose to focus on a point with no evidence while simultaneously disregarding evidence on the table.

 

A little, but I disagree with your use of 'attack'. it implies hostility or conviction. neither of which are the case.

 

What do you mean by evidence? Tone reading a fishy post should be completely valid, and I wasn't aware I was disregarding anything.

 

 

Interesting that you are the second player to make mention of my adjectives.

 

If I comment that you have "attacked" a post, I'm dying that you chose a post and a point to object to and brought it up in thread. You attacked it. There might be a "soft attack" or a "hard attack", but it's an attack nonetheless.

 

If I comment that you are "shaming" another player, it means that you've use insulting verbiage to belittle their play or leaned on them as if you were more experienced than they are.

 

Personally, I find mincing words scummish.

 

If I say "evidence", I'm referring to an action by a player, documented, that can used to reference continuity later. 

 

"Tone reading" and hunches in general are speculation. They can be useful as guides - I have a few right now - but they are not submittable  in court.

 

In my experience, players that favor hunches over evidence find themselves at the wrong end of the noose or knife.

 

no, the point isn't to belabor word choice, but to elaborate on why I reacted the way i did - the words you used. i would say nudge, or speculate, in place of attack because they're more relevant and less hyperbolic.

.

in regards to the bolded, if you use words differently than i would then i'm going to ask what you mean so to facilitate a discussion.

 

i agree hunches are not pushes; they're closer to statements of intent. tone reading, however, is different. how someone responds and what they respond to are very key in an analysis since the content of a post  can be fabricated in forum mafia but tone and flow are difficult for wolfpack to imitate.

 

 

Are we agreed that semantics and posturing benefit scum more than town? 

 

Are we agreed that fact and evidence are more useful to the town than hunches and speculation? 

 

I'm fine to take you as you stand, but please define that stance. 

 

No.

 

Yes.

 

If you mean my stance on tone reading, my stance is all good things come with moderation and compromise. tone reading is half-way between substance and guess-work, and it needs to be used deliberately. when i say barm's post is fishy, i'm saying it's fishy because of the phrasing in respect to thread flow. but the caveat is i don't know his meta, nor very much of his character yet, so it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

 

I forgot to ask what evidence I've been disregarding. You said that, and now I want to know what you mean?

 

 

The evidence is Yates claim. You have defined it several times, after it has been defined by others several times.

 

My point being that you ignored the previous payer's posts defining "Seer Cover" when you could have just let it stand and watched to see what came of it.

 

Instead, you used you explanation to support Yates and then talk about town-reading other posts.

 

I look at that as ignoring evidence (the obvious) to bring attention to speculation.

[Cass]

*Replies to relevant posts from Page 43*

 

 

 

Re: your comment on button pushing - I thought it was as much, but I'm still not sure I liked the way it came across... and your explanation doesn't clear that up? I was more unclear on the why than the what. I guess what I really wanted to say was  “Barm, were you jumping on a nothing in order to set Leelou up as scum, pushing such a nothing button because you're WILF?” I didn't really see a point for Town to push that button. Who's buttons exactly are you trying to push?

 

At that point in the game anyone at all, the game had just started and up to then there had been exactly zero real content. And it worked, multiple people responded and blew things out of proportion for what I entirely agree should have amounted to nothing.

 

Work with me here? It 'worked' but 'should have amounted to nothing'? Why is multiple people responding and blowing things out of proportion a good thing? Like I said, I didn't really see a point for Town to push that button at that point, I did see an opportunity for Wolves to make a mountain out of a molehill... that's why I was asking you for your motives...  You can respond to this if you want, or if you feel you've made your point we can agree to just leave it, smile and nod and see how the rest of the game pans out? 

 

 

Hi Cass. You're being mentored by Monstr, right? Cool. Ask him about this:

1. Is it usual for Yates to provide such OPEN Seer 'cover'?
2. How plausible is it (especially for those who have caught up and may have examples either way) that Yates may have been a Wolf posting ‘cover’ in the hopes of initiating other ‘peaks’/trying to find the Seer?

1. This game just ended a couple of weeks ago. That's the last game I played with a Seer. It was offsite but Seer cover was actually discussed in-depth because it was the first game on that site for a lot of us. That's your background on why I would provide Seer cover - assuming it's cover.

2. It should be mostly null. It's like saying "I am Spartacus." If everyone else lays down cover, it a. helps HIDE the real Seer [assuming I'm just providing cover] and b. gives the real Seer [me] an open forum to post their reads in the event they are NKed.

Also, that link was to Monstr's game. So your mentor should be able to help you out if you need more back and forth on the strategy. Good luck and have fun.

 

Yes, Monstr is my mentor. He explained seer cover to me - and in fact, mentioned something a little like this scenario, where he basically said when someone hardclaims seer, they're either a wolf or the seer. If they're a wolf, the real seer generally counterclaims. Which may be why Yate's post caught my attention. And why it has set off alarm bells for me that you and Sili are providing the same excuses/definitions of gameplay, when what I was asking for was your motives and whether, according to your meta, it was plausible you were wolf?

 

 

I feel like I'm being backed into a corner here. I hope I'm explaining myself well.

 Does anyone know if I'm allowed to quote PMs Monstr and I had before game start? (and if so, how to do so?) If allowed I'd like to do so - I think it would be interesting for those wondering about how I work, what I know and if I've been over-trained   

[WWWwombat]

For DPR:

 

so, we have two direct claims for Seer: Yates and Sili....

 

Anybody up for competing trains, or too early?

 

 

 

Either confused or scum.

[Yates]

No. I never mentioned Cass and make no reference to her now. 

 

The name "Seer Cover" implies what the action is meant to accomplish. It's kind of like "Barn Door".

 

Implying that people don't get it, especially coupled with the "trust us - we're the cool kids from the other site that knows how to play..." vibe is a technique that be seen as an effort to intimidate new players - to bully these players into silence or following the misdirection.

 

I'm fine with the technique. But, I'm also fine to point it out as technique. 

 

There is no question that multiple players have cited "The Other Site". To me, that doesn't have a damn thing to do with this game and I see it as fluff and padding.

See, this is where I have to wonder if this is a rusty Townie or a dude with an agenda. You just made a whole stink with Sili about "semantics" being a scum tool and you are using semantics here. You claim you didn't mention Cass but that's a semantic argument since CASS is the person people are responding to and thus you are still talking about Cass.  

 

You are also accusing Wombat, Sili, and myself of being the "cool kids from the other site," here, which is pretty disingenuous. Doubly so given that Cass specifically references meta as something she's planning on using IN THIS GAME. If she's going to use meta, and she's insinuating that Seer Cover could conceivably be tantamount to role fishing, why is it such a mystery to you when people respond with the meta back story?

 

PE: Okay. I think I see what you are saying. You feel like it's being over explained by multiple people? I was just responding as I was catching up. I would imagine the fact that it got brought up again made it a conversation point for everyone else. You shining the spotlight on something pretty trivial is what's keeping it alive. So there's your irony for today. It's not a big deal. Let it go, man.

[csarmi]

 

 

I think the people arguing against seer cover aren't looking at the circumstances of this game very carefully.  The main reason not to like seer cover is that it essentially gives the seer a shelf-life.  That being said, the setup of this game already puts the seer on a shelf life.  Town has two part-time vigs.  Mafia has two extra kills and a roleblocker.  Town does not have a doc but a jailkeeper (much less effective at protecting cops).  All of this means that not only is the seer more likely to die to nightkill, but once the seer hardclaims, he or she is unlikely to get another viewing off.

 

As for Yates hardclaiming to start the seer cover, that probably wasn't the best move on a site that isn't used to seer cover, but it's not something that makes him scum.  It's still a null-to-town move overall imo.

 

 

Personally, I didn't worry when Yates made the claim. 

 

I worry about all of the commentary after - the moves behind the moves.

 

Yates could have easily made the claim and let it be. If anyone asked, he could have explained it. Or, he could have explained it while he was doing it to try and get a thing started. I don't have a problem with any of that as it's up front and makes sense.

 

But, my radar pings when Des comes into to explain Yate's moves. Yet, a person could argue that Des takes it upon himself to explain everybody's moves. But, when Sili shows up and starts laying down the same rhetoric Des did (before Des had to back off and distance himself from it) I take notice.

 

And, when other players still bring it up, I take more notice. Dead horse and all that...

 

I didn't like how Des dealt with it at all.  He explained why it wasn't scummy but then said he doesn't think seer cover works very well.  Reads like trying to have his cake and eat it too.

 

Here, have some wine.

[Sili Quirrels]

It's a problem for me the same way creating any advantage for the mafia is a problem.

 

If a player is stuck, give them a simple explanation and unstick them. All of this leading the horse to water/slaughter nonsense is just pandering. 

 

To the "this forum is new..." rhetoric, I find this laughable. 

 

This forum has evolved many times over the years, as do they all. Unfortunately, the current evolution seems to feature massive amounts of emo and very little case structuring.

 

sorry, a simple explanation wasn't enough for the person I was responding to. further, things grow and wane over the years like they always will, and as much as I'm prone to forgetting it, this is just a game. If i had a choice between helping another human being gain a better understanding of mafia, and helping my wincon, I'd choose the former always because it hopefully improves the community as a whole.

 

that's just a priority for me.

 

Red :: I have no idea why or if other people are bringing it up. I just think that might be a reason.

Orange :: How does attempting to defuse confusion, general befuddlement, and poor scum reads a net negative to town? If anything you should want people to ask less questions so that no one slips. Not for people to stop giving answers and enabling informed decisions.

[DPR]

For DPR:

 

so, we have two direct claims for Seer: Yates and Sili....

 

Anybody up for competing trains, or too early?

 

 

 

Either confused or scum.

 

See, that's my point - no one went scum-hunting first. 

 

Instead we get a list of self-professed mafia wonks who are more than happy to elaborate on the merits or lack thereof of Seer Cover. Oh, and Yates is a swell guy.

 

Now, if you go back an look at every non-active player's posts that imply confusion, you'll find that their points are mostly ignored.

 

So why all the celebration over Seer Cover? 

 

Look at me with a straight face and tell me at least one mafia isn't in on all this.

[WWWwombat]

Here, have some wine.

 

 

Hey, what's up?  You gonna post at all or just let Des drag you down into the oranges?

[Sili Quirrels]

The evidence is Yates claim. You have defined it several times, after it has been defined by others several times.

 

My point being that you ignored the previous payer's posts defining "Seer Cover" when you could have just let it stand and watched to see what came of it.

 

Instead, you used you explanation to support Yates and then talk about town-reading other posts.

 

I look at that as ignoring evidence (the obvious) to bring attention to speculation.

 

At this point i honestly think you're bringing it up more than anyone else in the thread, and that concerns me. I was responding to cass because he's a new player, and i figured I might try to be helpful.

 

Don't remember when I did the red.

[WWWwombat]

 

For DPR:

 

so, we have two direct claims for Seer: Yates and Sili....

 

Anybody up for competing trains, or too early?

 

 

 

Either confused or scum.

 

See, that's my point - no one went scum-hunting first. 

 

Instead we get a list of self-professed mafia wonks who are more than happy to elaborate on the merits or lack thereof of Seer Cover. Oh, and Yates is a swell guy.

 

Now, if you go back an look at every non-active player's posts that imply confusion, you'll find that their points are mostly ignored.

 

So why all the celebration over Seer Cover? 

 

Look at me with a straight face and tell me at least one mafia isn't in on all this.

 

 

Largely irrelevant.  Given how much it's been discussed, there's obviously mafia talking about it.  And you seem to be perpetuating the discussion while implying that the discussion is scummy.  How does that make sense from a town PoV?

[Yates]

Please post an example of a player that has been confused over "Seer Cover".

 

 

Here's one...

Yes, Monstr is my mentor. He explained seer cover to me - and in fact, mentioned something a little like this scenario, where he basically said when someone hardclaims seer, they're either a wolf or the seer. If they're a wolf, the real seer generally counterclaims.

What?! Uh... no. Maybe if someone hard claims Seer with a GUILTY result? Otherwise, he's 100% wrong. A Seer never counter claims. If there's Seer Cover? A Seer never HAS to counter claim. Just a bunch of people saying "I'm the seer with an innocent view on Player X."

 

Same rules apply for a vig, for what it's worth.  A vig doesn't need to counter claim.  A vig counter claims with a bullet.  At night.  See what I'm saying?

[WWWwombat]

The amount of time being wasted on inanities such as Sili's NK comment and Yates starting the seer cover is seriously killing my desire to play this game.

[DPR]

 

No. I never mentioned Cass and make no reference to her now. 

 

The name "Seer Cover" implies what the action is meant to accomplish. It's kind of like "Barn Door".

 

Implying that people don't get it, especially coupled with the "trust us - we're the cool kids from the other site that knows how to play..." vibe is a technique that be seen as an effort to intimidate new players - to bully these players into silence or following the misdirection.

 

I'm fine with the technique. But, I'm also fine to point it out as technique. 

 

There is no question that multiple players have cited "The Other Site". To me, that doesn't have a damn thing to do with this game and I see it as fluff and padding.

See, this is where I have to wonder if this is a rusty Townie or a dude with an agenda. You just made a whole stink with Sili about "semantics" being a scum tool and you are using semantics here. You claim you didn't mention Cass but that's a semantic argument since CASS is the person people are responding to and thus you are still talking about Cass.  

 

You are also accusing Wombat, Sili, and myself of being the "cool kids from the other site," here, which is pretty disingenuous. Doubly so given that Cass specifically references meta as something she's planning on using IN THIS GAME. If she's going to use meta, and she's insinuating that Seer Cover could conceivably be tantamount to role fishing, why is it such a mystery to you when people respond with the meta back story?

 

PE: Okay. I think I see what you are saying. You feel like it's being over explained by multiple people? I was just responding as I was catching up. I would imagine the fact that it got brought up again made it a conversation point for everyone else. You shining the spotlight on something pretty trivial is what's keeping it alive. So there's your irony for today. It's not a big deal. Let it go, man.

 

 

This is a clever post. Tip o' the cap to you.

 

I look forward to seeing what happens.

[WWWwombat]

Oh and my top suspect being perpetually afk...

[Kivam]

 

Please post an example of a player that has been confused over "Seer Cover".

 

Here's one...

Yes, Monstr is my mentor. He explained seer cover to me - and in fact, mentioned something a little like this scenario, where he basically said when someone hardclaims seer, they're either a wolf or the seer. If they're a wolf, the real seer generally counterclaims.

What?! Uh... no. Maybe if someone hard claims Seer with a GUILTY result? Otherwise, he's 100% wrong. A Seer never counter claims. If there's Seer Cover? A Seer never HAS to counter claim. Just a bunch of people saying "I'm the seer with an innocent view on Player X."

 

Same rules apply for a vig, for what it's worth.  A vig doesn't need to counter claim.  A vig counter claims with a bullet.  At night.  See what I'm saying?

 

 

Good lord do I love players like you.  'Cause when I put 2 vigs and 2.5 cops into a closed mafia setup, you kill each other off and balance the game for the scum ...

[WWWwombat]

If you guys wanna go after Yates for something, how about going after him for having very little meaningful content?  Then again, the same could be said of the vast majority of this game...

[DPR]

 

 

For DPR:

 

so, we have two direct claims for Seer: Yates and Sili....

 

Anybody up for competing trains, or too early?

 

 

 

Either confused or scum.

 

See, that's my point - no one went scum-hunting first. 

 

Instead we get a list of self-professed mafia wonks who are more than happy to elaborate on the merits or lack thereof of Seer Cover. Oh, and Yates is a swell guy.

 

Now, if you go back an look at every non-active player's posts that imply confusion, you'll find that their points are mostly ignored.

 

So why all the celebration over Seer Cover? 

 

Look at me with a straight face and tell me at least one mafia isn't in on all this.

 

 

Largely irrelevant.  Given how much it's been discussed, there's obviously mafia talking about it.  And you seem to be perpetuating the discussion while implying that the discussion is scummy.  How does that make sense from a town PoV?

 

 

Not a comforting post coming from you.

 

 

Please post an example of a player that has been confused over "Seer Cover".

 

Here's one...

Yes, Monstr is my mentor. He explained seer cover to me - and in fact, mentioned something a little like this scenario, where he basically said when someone hardclaims seer, they're either a wolf or the seer. If they're a wolf, the real seer generally counterclaims.

What?! Uh... no. Maybe if someone hard claims Seer with a GUILTY result? Otherwise, he's 100% wrong. A Seer never counter claims. If there's Seer Cover? A Seer never HAS to counter claim. Just a bunch of people saying "I'm the seer with an innocent view on Player X."

 

Same rules apply for a vig, for what it's worth.  A vig doesn't need to counter claim.  A vig counter claims with a bullet.  At night.  See what I'm saying?

 

 

I took that post as a joke. 

[Thane Vakarian]

omg... really...? lynch the slackers? oh my Wombat, how can you suggest something like that? *sarcasm*

[Yates]

Good lord do I love players like you.  'Cause when I put 2 vigs and 2.5 cops into a closed mafia setup, you kill each other off and balance the game for the scum ...

Or I shoot the SK, removing an anti-Town role... Anyway, I'm clearly being hyperbolic. Except about the part of how you don't counter claim.

[WWWwombat]

omg... really...? lynch the slackers? oh my Wombat, how can you suggest something like that? *sarcasm*

 

Shouldn't you be scumhunting instead of resting on your meta-laurels?

[WWWwombat]

DPR, I didn't join this game to comfort you.

[Nynaeve]

Cranks Wombie is a fun a Wombie. ^_^

[DPR]

If you guys wanna go after Yates for something, how about going after him for having very little meaningful content?  Then again, the same could be said of the vast majority of this game...

 

It's D1. Meaningful content will most likely not reveal itself until later. Why are you not helping catalog content?

[Yates]

If you guys wanna go after Yates for something, how about going after him for having very little meaningful content?

Is this a joke?