Gotham - Batman prequel show

[Yates]

Any Orange is the New Black fans notice who the bar owner was??

[Zander?]

ROSA IS BOSS!!!!

 

what a wicked episode last night!!!  the riddler is finally coming out!!

[Yates]

ROSA IS BOSS!!!!

[Zander?]

Sweetness!!

[Basel Gill]

I loved Ed's maniacal, panicky laughing at the end.

 

One thing I'm wondering is, how does the serial killer know what cops are investigating him? Does he have a mole within the police? Or is it that every time a cop takes the case, they go and talk to the same people, and one of those people contacts him after being questioned? For him to target the loved ones of whoever looks into this implies a special kind of knowledge.

[Red2111]

i think it more implies a mole tbh.

 

the orc was onto Gordon before Gorndon contacted any of the previous victims, so there was nothing to clue the orc onto the investigation.  unless the commissioner knew who the orc was and let it slip ....  but thats an entirely new can of worms.

 

 

likely it was a flub up by the show, meaning they didn't think things through that well and wanted a filler spot for gordon to continue growing as a character and give him a reason to take out the commissioner.

[reyler]

You know, it's amazing to me how little I have to say lately about Gotham.

 

I mean, beyond continuing to love Bruce/Selina, which makes this all the cooler.

[Basel Gill]

Lucius!

 

The guy playing Fox was pretty good for his short time on screen. His voice could very easily pass for a much younger version of Morgan Freeman. Which I wouldn't be surprised if that was the general idea.

 

And I loved the final shot of Penguin sitting there cackling. I love the entire Penguin story just for what Taylor brings to the character.

[reyler]

Starting mob wars for Fun and Profit. It's so nice to have the Penguin back.

 

Not super thrilled about the way Nygma's turn is still being centered around a romantic fixation rather than an intellectual one (it reminds me more of how Mad Hatter was introduced to the DCAU than it does Riddler), but his first time leaving a clue cracked me up.

 

I know that Barbara has never been shown to be super-stable, but the ease with which the Ogre snapped her fragile little mind seemed to stretch belief a bit. At least they didn't have Gordon combine his guilt over making her a target with a romantic relapse.

 

I kinda liked how we had badass little Bruce just get utterly shut down by Bunderslaw; like, "settle down, dumbass, you're not Batman yet". Since there's been mention of him spending season two developing his Upper Crust Twit persona, I'm guessing that's going to have more to do with throwing off suspicion from his own company, rather than its later use of protecting his Batman identity. I'd forgotten that they'd cast Lucius and was pleasantly surprised to see him. Sounds like this Lucius is less likely to function as Q Division than the Nolan version.

[reyler]

Sad to see Maroni go (guess he's not going to be throwing acid in Harvey Dent's face any time soon), but damned if he didn't earn it. That was pretty much the only big moment that wasn't spoiled by the advertising. Well, that and Selina's awkward inclusion in Fish's new gang. I mean, we knew Fish was out because Jada said she wasn't coming back. They spoiled the Cave reveal at the very end, they spoiled Barbara going after Leslie with a knife (at least the fight wasn't too "chick fight")

 

I liked "I'm the King of Gotham!", which was pretty much the only part of that scene that wasn't silly. At least they're doing something with Barbara, though I could wish that the drop into psychosis had been built better. Likewise Nygma really ought to have been seen showing building frustration over the season to really, really earn his break, though I did like his freakout scene in a sort of guilty pleasure way.

 

One thing that the teasers outright lied about was any suggestion that the Electrocutioner was coming back (that shot of electrical arcing in the police station from his episode, plus usage of the frequently-punned word "shocking" in episode descriptions). That would have been a nice surprise.

 

What has me a little more hopeful for next season is the fact that a lot of the pacing and structural hiccups can be traced to having only planned for 16 episodes and having to rework half the season after getting picked up for an additional six. Bruno Heller has said in interview that Scarecrow wasn't supposed to happen this year, the Fish/Dollmaker storyline wasn't supposed to happen at all (and as this episode showed, ultimately didn't matter at all beyond perhaps giving Fish a mythic status among her out-of-nowhere followers right before her anticlimactic death). Next season they can plan around 22 episodes from the start.

 

I know there's talk about having pre-cryogen Mr. Freeze show up. Apparently we're getting a return to the Jerome/Joker business, which puts paid to Heller's claims of having red herring Jokers. Hopefully they'll remember Montoya and Allen are part of the show. Honestly now that Maroni and Fish are dead and Falcone has walked out, that pretty much does for a lot of the story grist they've been grinding. Wonder how they plan to fill the time without going full tilt into active supervillains (besides the King of Gotham, obvs).

[Basel Gill]

Killing Maroni was a major change to canon and certainly not anything I expected after just one season. Although since Oswald has spent the majority of the year looking to overthrow Maroni and Falcone, I figured it'd be silly for him to not make any progress. Since Falcone is still alive and head of the main crime family in Batman's time, this meant Maroni had to eventually go.

 

As for Nygma, he showed some signs of developing an alternate personality here. Previous incarnations have always struck me as manic (especially the Jim Carrey version, which IMO was the only thing Batman Forever got right), but I never had the sense of multiple personalities. He went full Gollum/Smeagol in this episode. I'm thinking Kringle will be his next victim. Her continued rejection of him isn't something he can take well, and she does have some suspicion about Dougherty's disappearance.

 

I really wasn't expecting the cave to show up either. I know absolutely nothing about the canon origin story of the cave, but I'd always assumed that it was Bruce's thing rather than something pre-existing developed by his father. In the geological sense, it had to have been there for thousands of years if not millions. But if Thomas Wayne is the one who turned it into a secret lair, that challenges my previous assumptions. Within the show, it also raises the interesting question of whether the Wayne mansion was deliberately built in that location above the cave so that the building could havea secret underground lair in the first place.

 

I'm going to miss Fish a great deal. I think Smith was the second-best actor on the show after Robin Lord Taylor. We never saw a body there, so I think they wanted to leave the possibility of her coming back open. All we saw was the splash of her hitting the water. Another possibility is that Fish was injured enough to need some reconstructions, thus giving them a good explanation if they recast the role. But the acting overall won't beas good without her around.

 

Reyler, where did you hear that Smith said she was leaving?

[reyler]

Um, it was a pretty widely disseminated story a couple of months ago that Jada wouldn't be returning for season two, which pretty much cemented that she was getting killed off.

 

Maroni is also alive in Batman's time in "canon", given that he is traditionally the one responsible for scarring Two-Face, so clearly canon can go take a flying leap according to Gotham. Which is okay, it just means people need to let go of their preconceptions about how things have to happen. Like the inevitability of Jim and Barbara getting married and having at least one kid (James Jr., who grows up to be a bit of a psychopath himself - Batgirl Barbara is not always Jim's daughter) is clearly out the window now.

 

I wouldn't call what Nygma was going through multiple personalities just because he was talking to himself. Mania, certainly - a rapid-fire throwing out of thoughts and then immediately doubling back to analyze/criticize them is entirely within the scope of what one might expect out of the Riddler.

 

The existence of the cave as a developed area prior to Bruce has been explored before - Batman Begins put it as part of the Underground Railroad. Even Thomas Wayne having been a proto-Batman has been touched on before, though generally not well-received, since it rather detracts from Bruce taking up the guise. No knowing yet where they're going with it here.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

he was golluming. that's not in the DSM

[Basel Gill]

I've been thinking of doing a rewatch of the Nolan films at some point.

[Red2111]

@ Basel - i have as well.  i've never done a full watch through of the trilogy back to back *nods*

 

iirc, theres only been two orgins for the Cave.  the most popular and widely used being the bruce falls into a well when he was a kid, developed a phobia of bats as a result from it and recalls as an adult about the cave with the bats on his property.  (then the one that reyler mentioned from the nolan films)

 

i had actually hoped that would be what they would accomplished with him going hiking in the woods, and then having him rescue himself, instead of his dad rescuing him (like in the origin story).  given they're working off the re-boot origins, the same as Nolan, they'll probably have the bat cave origin in this show be the same as in the Nolan film (left over from the underground railroad days).  the fire place, however, has been used as one of the many access points to the batcave ...  but i think its just a red herring and a precursor to it, rather than an intro to the cave.  a hidden room that bruce will later excavate and renovate into the cave, yes, but not the cave as we know it will become *nods*

 

i'm sad to see Fish go, i was hoping that Cat would get some mentoring under her wing *nods*  we didn't see the body like Basel said, so perhaps their not done with her character.  i was expecting Butch to just off himself instead of shooting one or the other, kinda sad to see what his character has become.

 

Riddler is setting up to be a wonderful villian.  i agree he went full on Golum, but thats not MPD (multiple personality disorder).  neither gollum nor the riddler have MPD (no more than having an imaginary friend is MPD).  when you have MPD you black out and another personality takes control of you.  what Riddler and Gollum have is just psychosis and a reality break, which is a by-product from a lack of any socialization.  its a cooping mechanism to fulfill the basic socialization need that humans have.  its closer to schizophrenia tbh, and that disorder fits PERFECTLY with Riddler ^_^

 

@ Reyler, i know you dislike his break occurring over a girl ...  but i like this change to his origin.  its more real and believable.  i think this show is going to try to pin Riddlers antics on schizophrenia.  if you know anything about the disorder, and if this is what they plan to do, then next season we should start to see his disenfranchisement with gotham get revved up, considering he just had his breakdown.  his character is the right age for schizophrenia to take hold, and before his "extreme paranoia and delusions" can take hold he needs to have a mental break with reality.

 

 

killing off Maroni was expected ...  given how they were building the plot ...  but i wonder what the long term consequences will be of this decision story wise.  bringing Pengiun into power now ...  i hope that his character isnt going to peak too soon and then fall flat.  his character needs opposition to excel, so i dont think we've seen the last of Falcone *nods*  i also wonder why Gordon didn't ask him who killed the Waynes, he had a prime moment to do so.

 

 

Barabra's character ... they gave it a valiant effort but she's like old yeller for me, only a version of old yeller that i never liked so i wont cry when she gets shot in the head.

 

 

@ Reyler - i disagree that they have no where to go next season except to bring out the big guns.  Cat, Bruce, Gordon, Two Face, Ivy, Scarecrow, Anarky/Red Hood, League of Assassins & Riddler still need a lot of developing to get them to the point where they can be major players; and all of these were introduced this season.  theres also Jerome, Electrocutioner and the kid that becomes Sandman, as well as Dick Graysons origin.  other big players that can be developed as an origin story are yet to be introduced or have anything done with them.

 

 

not to mention Arkham Asylum and Hugo Strange being worked on and developed.

 

 

i hope that next season they bring in Dr Strange to start building on the Asylum *nods*

[reyler]

I think my annoyance with Riddler's girl-derived origin here is that, normally Riddler's turn is due to a massive need to prove he's better on an intellectual level than everyone else, a sort of "I'll show you, just you watch". Here it's more like he's got a bad case of Nice Guy Syndrome, which is a thing I have a profound distaste for.

 

And I wasn't arguing that they need to bring in the big guns next season, I was pondering what they're going to do as far as an overall binding plotline now that they've removed pretty much the only big source of myth arc material they had that didn't require an active Bat. Right now I'm leaning towards the Court of Owls (and not the League; not only have they discussed bringing in the Court, Ra's and the League have already been a big element on Arrow).

 

As far as the other stuff, I doubt we're getting more Scarecrow or Electrocutioner just yet, they barely seem to remember that Harvey Dent exists, that wasn't Anarky but the Red Hood problem might pop up again, Dick Grayson hasn't even been born yet because they wasted a significant chunk of the Jerome episode on getting his parents together, and also

 

 the kid that becomes Sandman

 

What.

[Red2111]

I think my annoyance with Riddler's girl-derived origin here is that, normally Riddler's turn is due to a massive need to prove he's better on an intellectual level than everyone else, a sort of "I'll show you, just you watch". Here it's more like he's got a bad case of Nice Guy Syndrome, which is a thing I have a profound distaste for.

 

And I wasn't arguing that they need to bring in the big guns next season, I was pondering what they're going to do as far as an overall binding plotline now that they've removed pretty much the only big source of myth arc material they had that didn't require an active Bat. Right now I'm leaning towards the Court of Owls (and not the League; not only have they discussed bringing in the Court, Ra's and the League have already been a big element on Arrow).

 

As far as the other stuff, I doubt we're getting more Scarecrow or Electrocutioner just yet, they barely seem to remember that Harvey Dent exists, that wasn't Anarky but the Red Hood problem might pop up again, Dick Grayson hasn't even been born yet because they wasted a significant chunk of the Jerome episode on getting his parents together, and also

 

 the kid that becomes Sandman

 

What.

 

i can see what your saying about the Riddler *nods*  i think the "nice guy" syndrom will go away next season and they'll progress more on the "schozophrinic delusion" part of his character.   right now though, theres no one really there to challenge his intellect, but the other aspect of his drive, the want to expose gotham's elite for what they are, has more than enough ammo to go off on xD   i dont think we'll see the "i'm smarter than you" part of him take hold until he gets a good challenge (like when Bruce comes into his own, or if they invent another character that will match him intellectually)

 

i get that it wasn't Anarky, Reyler, you've stated that many times before. it is however, another character that they can include without the need for an active Bat.

 

 

and i was thinking and typing at the same time.  the bottom quote was a mix of two characters xD

 

Hush is the kid that Bruce punches (he goes on to kill his parents in order to get their money, yadda yadda yadda). 

 

but i was also thinking of Sandman as a good villain they could bring in that doesn't need a grown up Bat to take care of.

[reyler]

I had to go onto Wikipedia to have any idea what you were talking about as far as Sandman, because my only awareness was of the Spider-Man villain and the Neil Gaiman comic, and what I got was a confusing mess about guys with dream powers that turned into Gaiman's book and then turned into Doctor Fate and also something else completely unrelated to Gaiman's book but overall having nothing to do with Batman and also the guys were all superheroes.

 

I also found mention of an unrelated character who was a bad guy of the week on the old Adam West show, and if this is what you're talking about I'm going to put it right next to my mother always saying she thinks the next Batman movie should have Egghead as the villain.

[Red2111]

*bumpage*

 

anyone seen the new promos for Season 2?

 

 

*gets good shivers*  gonna be EPIC!!!

 

 

get ready to "hold onto your butts"  season 2 starts Sept 21st

 

 

so.....  i guess they're not trolling with the Joker now given that actors performance with Jerome??

 

that look ...  those actions ... the utter glee at mayhem ...  that LAUGH!!

 

 

i would totally love to meet that actor one day just to shake his hand and say "thanks for bringing the Joker back to life and proving people who said 'no one can play the role after Ledger' wrong"

 

 

its like Jack Nicholsons and Health Ledgers Jokers had a baby and Mark Hammil gave it voice acting lessons

 

 

 

also ... anyone else getting the Harley Quinn vibe from Barbara??   big change to her story (both Barbara's and Harleys) but it could work *nods*