#Gamergate

[WWWwombat]

Anti-semitism from 4chan trolls?  I'm shocked.

 

 

Time to kick them out.

[Nolder]

Keep deflecting, surely it will work this time.

[Suttree]

Keep deflecting, surely it will work this time.

Indeed. Does this mean a change in strategy is coming down the pipe? Because things do not sound good outside the echo chamber.

[Nolder]

Just to clarify for the unaware, the image that Futrelle is accusing Gamergate of promoting predates Gamergate by months.

It was made in 4chan's /pol/ not on 8chan and not by Gamergate. This is deflection as it has nothing to do with the ethical issues raised by Gamergate.

Futrelle is preying on people who aren't all that aware of chan culture and wouldn't know when or where the image was actually created once again proving he's a lowlife clickbaiter who has no integrity whatsoever.

[Nolder]

Lol, TB knows what's up: https://twitter.com/Totalbiscuit/status/530061888017956864

[Suttree]

Just to clarify for the unaware, the image that Futrelle is accusing Gamergate of promoting predates Gamergate by months.

It was made in 4chan's /pol/ not on 8chan and not by Gamergate. This is deflection as it has nothing to do with the ethical issues raised by Gamergate.

Futrelle is preying on people who aren't all that aware of chan culture and wouldn't know when or where the image was actually created once again proving he's a lowlife clickbaiter who has no integrity whatsoever.

 

Why does when it was created matter as opposed to how it's being used and accepted by gamergate members now? Oh and there is another cartoon in the post that specifically references Utah State so...

[Kivam]

Nolder, I did a bit of reading on this and I'm still confused as hell.  The initial "scandal" didn't seem like much of a big deal to me.  Zoe Quinn's ex posted a rant accusing her of cheating on him and sleeping around to advance her career.  The only part of that that would even be remotely relevant imo would be the allegation that she traded sex for positive reviews, but as far as I can tell, the Kotaku writer in question never reviewed her game.

 

That being said, this whole thing has blown up into something that's showing a lot of what's wrong with both the community and the industry.  I do think sexism probably played into it to some degree.  Given the apparent lack of evidence for the initial claims and the fact that her accuser was her ex, I don't see why this should have blown up like this.

 

That being said, the mainstream coverage of the story so far has been all about the sexism angle and hasn't delved into the issues with journalists funding developers, which is a much more legitimate complaint imo, and for which there seems to be some evidence.

 

So basically, to me, from my limited reading, it looks like a really ugly, complex situation that shouldn't have happened in the first place but is now being distorted by establishment "journalists" on one side and bitter /v/tards on the other.

 

This.  Not sure why it was a scandal in the first place, and the gamer reaction (up to and including threats of violence) has been insane

[Nolder]

 

Just to clarify for the unaware, the image that Futrelle is accusing Gamergate of promoting predates Gamergate by months.

It was made in 4chan's /pol/ not on 8chan and not by Gamergate. This is deflection as it has nothing to do with the ethical issues raised by Gamergate.

Futrelle is preying on people who aren't all that aware of chan culture and wouldn't know when or where the image was actually created once again proving he's a lowlife clickbaiter who has no integrity whatsoever.

 

Why does when it was created matter as opposed to how it's being used and accepted by gamergate members now? Oh and there is another cartoon in the post that specifically references Utah State so...

 

Not sure if it's cute or disgusting that you're still trying to push this, especially to someone who knows better.

You're better off trying to convince everyone in the thread I don't know what I'm talking about rather than trying to convince me of the same.

 

This.  Not sure why it was a scandal in the first place, and the gamer reaction (up to and including threats of violence) has been insane

You're not sure why a journalist writing favorably about their lover could be cause for a scandal?

 

As for the gamer reaction, consider the fact that at first it was relatively mild.

People didn't know if Eron was telling the truth and believe it or not most did not take it at face value.

They posted on Kotaku, they asked Grayson and Zoe on twitter, the posted on Reddit.

And then the hammer of massive censorship fell. People were banned and comments were deleted.

That lasted days and if you know anything about the internet pushing that kind of censorship across multiple platforms at once is a massive undertaking.

Not long after that came the "gamers are dead" articles which if you haven't read maybe you should take a peek. They aren't the thought provoking pieces some would make them out to be. 

 

That all happened within days, maybe a week and a half to two weeks I believe.

It escalated quickly because the press escalated it.

Had Stephen Totilo made a statement right away saying Grayson made a mistake and it wont happen again I guarantee you Gamergate would have never happened.

 

As always I'm sure someone somewhere did legitimately make threats of violence.

I have my doubts as to how serious most individual claims would be but that's not really for me to decide.

All I can is, like most people in Gamergate, I condemn any threats or harassment.

[SinisterDeath]

 

 

You're not sure why a journalist writing favorably about their lover could be cause for a scandal?

Who ever said they were journalists to begin with?

Every gaming site/magazine/reviewer is essentially a tabloid magazine designed around putting a product up on a pedestal to generate sales.. Anyone who's been into gaming scene for the last ten years could have told you (Both You, and gamergate as a whole) as much. 

 

 

 

And then the hammer of massive censorship fell. People were banned and comments were deleted.

There is no freedom of speech on privately owned websites... Merely speech they allow, and don't allow. This is something some people have a hard time figuring out.

You think Escapist is the bastion of free-speech? I laugh. They are royal dicks over there. They've banned countless people for violating there code of conduct regarding speech. In fact, there are things you personally have said on DM here, that would get you suspended over there.. and it wouldn't even be offensive speech in the lightest. (Aka, if your post is to short, says nothing, or just agree's with a topic without furthering discussion, can get you a 3 day suspension, no questions asked.)

 

 

 

Not long after that came the "gamers are dead" articles which if you haven't read maybe you should take a peek. They aren't the thought provoking pieces some would make them out to be. 

Where does this gamers thee be holy idea even come from? Gamers aren't above and beyond any other demographic, and like all demographics, they tend to change over time. What you define as gamer, is based upon this rosey eyed version of the past glory days, and not based on the evolution of demographics.. Essentially you're(and other's who think of gamers as a static un-changing thing) basically like a crotchedy old man complaining about all them youngins' on your lawn... (Also makes it the conservative don't want to see society change around you type of mentality)

 

 

 

It escalated quickly because the press escalated it.

I seem to remember people whining that the press wasn't touching the subject and actively avoiding it. Now that they got into it, and you (gamergate) don't like what they are saying.... gotta complain against the media for not doing whatcha want them to do.

 

 

 

Had Stephen Totilo made a statement right away saying Grayson made a mistake and it wont happen again I guarantee you Gamergate would have never happened.

BS! People just wanted an excuse to rally behind something. If Totilo had made that statement, I can easilly see #gamergate calling it a token slap on the wrist and nothing more.

 

 

As always I'm sure someone somewhere did legitimately make threats of violence.

I have my doubts as to how serious most individual claims would be but that's not really for me to decide.

All I can is, like most people in Gamergate, I condemn any threats or harassment.

If people who make threats aren't gamergate, and don't speak for gamergate because they are Individuals.. By that same token everyone who types anything on #gamergate are speaking as individuals and not as #Gamergate! 

 

 

Thus,without any sole person acting as the mouth-piece of #Gamergate,  anyone who says anything good or bad about #Gamergate is both speaking for and not speaking for #gamergate (#QuantumStates/#TotalAnarchy). When you toss in public perception, that bases opinions on everything negative about anything it's bound to get a bad rap.

[Suttree]

Not sure if it's cute or disgusting that you're still trying to push this, especially to someone who knows better.

Which doesn't answer the question in the slightest. You were talking about deflection?

 

You're not sure why a journalist writing favorably about their lover could be cause for a scandal?

 

Wert gave a solid breakdown here. No question, the fact that this is what you are latching on to says more than all the other bs you are trying to spin about ethics put together.

 

1. Quinn's ex-boyfriend posted a rant revealing that Quinn had gone into a relationship with a journalist from Kotaku. This gave the proto-GGers an excuse to attack Quinn's morals and ethics directly. Initially it appeared that Quinn had cheated on her boyfriend but later it was clarified that this was not the case (although it is still widely reported now). Exactly why that is relevant is unclear. It appears that the proto-GGers were Outraged Morality Crusaders and seized on the alleged infidelity as proof of Quinn's bad character. Or something.

 

2. The gaming press, which itself had been diversifying in recent years with more female reviewers and greater coverage of non-AAA titles (necessary as the number of indie games being released became inordinately high), posted a series of articles criticising the stereotypical gamer identity, of the young man sitting at home with lots of time on his hands enjoying violent shooters and using racial and gender-based slurs online. The press suggested that "Gamers" should be "over", referring to the stereotype rather than literally every gamer everywhere (which would be nonsensical). However, several of the articles phrased this badly.

 

3. The proto-GGers seized this on an attack on all gamers everywhere. They claimed that the gaming press was in bed with developers - in this case literally - and this was a corrupt practice. They conveniently ignored the immutable fact that Depression Quest had never (and still hasn't) been reviewed on Kotaku and the journalist in question had only mentioned the game in one article before having a relationship with Quinn. They also ignored the sheer mind-numbing avalanche of journalistic corruption that had been going on for the past 20+ years with regards to Triple-A publishers funding the gaming press through advertising and threatening to pull adverts when critical reviews appeared. Finally, they also ignored the fact that Depression Quest was free, so no money was changing hands at all.

[Nolder]

Who ever said they were journalists to begin with?

They did actually...

 

But putting that aside I'm willing to accept what you're saying.

Gamers have now realized just how big this industry is and they want professional coverage by people who promise to be ethical.

 

For my part I'm willing to let the past be the past if they'd just apologize and adopt an ethics policy moving forward.

 

There is no freedom of speech on privately owned websites... Merely speech they allow, and don't allow. This is something some people have a hard time figuring out.

You think Escapist is the bastion of free-speech? I laugh. They are royal dicks over there. They've banned countless people for violating there code of conduct regarding speech. In fact, there are things you personally have said on DM here, that would get you suspended over there.. and it wouldn't even be offensive speech in the lightest. (Aka, if your post is to short, says nothing, or just agree's with a topic without furthering discussion, can get you a 3 day suspension, no questions asked.)

Not what I said and not the point.

They shut the discussion down.

That was their right and their choice but my point was they left the so called "table" immediately and then went on a "killing spree" right in front of our eyes. Have you seen the TB thread on reddit? Actually kind of creeps me out seeing all the deleted comments. It really gives you the feeling of stepping onto a virtual battlefield filled with dead "bodies". Or that's the impression I get anyway.

 

And no I didn't call the Escapist a "bastion of free speech".

I just gave them props for being the only site that was implicated that allowed discussion of these issues, back before Gamergate was Gamergate even, and being the first and I think currently only site implicated to have updated it's policy.

 

 

Where does this gamers thee be holy idea even come from? Gamers aren't above and beyond any other demographic, and like all demographics, they tend to change over time. What you define as gamer, is based upon this rosey eyed version of the past glory days, and not based on the evolution of demographics.. Essentially you're(and other's who think of gamers as a static un-changing thing) basically like a crotchedy old man complaining about all them youngins' on your lawn... (Also makes it the conservative don't want to see society change around you type of mentality)

Wtf are you talking about?

 

I seem to remember people whining that the press wasn't touching the subject and actively avoiding it. Now that they got into it, and you (gamergate) don't like what they are saying.... gotta complain against the media for not doing whatcha want them to do.

There was radio silence for...3 days?, then they mass censorship, then the "gamers are dead" articles a few days after that.

 

Mind you at that point GJP had not been leaked, the Grayson/Quinn relationship had not been confirmed, Gamergate did not actually exist. It was a bunch of people with a lot of doubts who were very confused by what was going on. They didn't understand why Kotaku was being silent on the issue. Then they were mortified that aside from Kotaku, Polygon, etc even Reddit and 4chan was banning threads talking about the issue all en mass. When the "gamers are dead" articles dropped it wasn't proof of anything but that's when people knew that they were engaged in a war of sorts. It's a war of information and from that point on we've been winning. Now we know why the "gamers are dead" articles all came from different publications at the same time. Now we know that Grayson and Quinn had a relationship. Now we have evidence of the lack of ethics that happens constantly in the industry such as the EA leak that was ignored by the media for fear of pissing off EA and wouldn't have been known if not for Gamergate.

 

You're right we didn't like their silence.

And we didn't like being declared "dead".

Now we're doing something about it.

Call it "whining" if you like but that's not going to stop anyone.

 

BS! People just wanted an excuse to rally behind something. If Totilo had made that statement, I can easilly see #gamergate calling it a token slap on the wrist and nothing more.

I don't agree.

[Nolder]

 

Not sure if it's cute or disgusting that you're still trying to push this, especially to someone who knows better.

Which doesn't answer the question in the slightest. You were talking about deflection?

 

Not deflection, this is just a pointless game that I have no interest in.

Say what you want and be done with it.

 

You want me to, what, defend the image? Say that a "real" Gamergater wasn't using it?

I don't know and I don't care all that much because anything I could say about it you'll have a comeback for just like the threats thing. There's nothing to say about this that I haven't said about that.

 

Maybe I could say that chan culture is partially to be as offensive to outsiders as possible hence constantly calling each other niggers and faggots but...do you care? I don't think so.

 

 

 

1. Quinn's ex-boyfriend posted a rant revealing that Quinn had gone into a relationship with a journalist from Kotaku. This gave the proto-GGers an excuse to attack Quinn's morals and ethics directly. Initially it appeared that Quinn had cheated on her boyfriend but later it was clarified that this was not the case (although it is still widely reported now). Exactly why that is relevant is unclear. It appears that the proto-GGers were Outraged Morality Crusaders and seized on the alleged infidelity as proof of Quinn's bad character. Or something.

No, the Zoe Post directly accuses Zoe of cheating on Eron.

This is factually incorrect.

 

Even if it were true that's a genetic fallacy.

Where Gamergate started and where it is now is irrelevant.

 

2. The gaming press, which itself had been diversifying in recent years with more female reviewers and greater coverage of non-AAA titles (necessary as the number of indie games being released became inordinately high), posted a series of articles criticising the stereotypical gamer identity, of the young man sitting at home with lots of time on his hands enjoying violent shooters and using racial and gender-based slurs online. The press suggested that "Gamers" should be "over", referring to the stereotype rather than literally every gamer everywhere (which would be nonsensical). However, several of the articles phrased this badly.

Dunno what the point is here, to handwave how bad those articles were? Ok.

 

3. The proto-GGers seized this on an attack on all gamers everywhere.

Gamers are dead. Gamers are over. Gamers don't need to be your audience. Guide to ending gamers.

 

It's pretty straightforward.

 

They claimed that the gaming press was in bed with developers - in this case literally - and this was a corrupt practice.

True and proven.

 

They conveniently ignored the immutable fact that Depression Quest had never (and still hasn't) been reviewed on Kotaku and the journalist in question had only mentioned the game in one article before having a relationship with Quinn.

Relationships don't spring up out of the blue and it was proven through Twitter that Quinn and Grayson had a prior friendship. And a review isn't necessary for a breach of ethics, coverage is. Grayson wrote about Quinn and Depression Quest. As a result DQ gained a lot of popularity which helped boost it through Steam's Greenlight. Quinn thanked him for this openly. Do mental gymnastics all you want but ask any journalism professor and they'll tell you that's clearly crossing a line.

 

They also ignored the sheer mind-numbing avalanche of journalistic corruption that had been going on for the past 20+ years with regards to Triple-A publishers funding the gaming press through advertising and threatening to pull adverts when critical reviews appeared.

Nope, not true.

Name any incident you want to. There has been outrage from gamers each and every time.

Many in Gamergate don't even consider the Zoe Post the beginning but claim this is built on years of obvious corruption.

 

Finally, they also ignored the fact that Depression Quest was free, so no money was changing hands at all.

It's not required for money to change hands.

Zoe's reputation benefited from Grayson and benefits from DQ hitting milestones in downloads because of his coverage such as "a million downloads".

 

Also Patreon.

[SinisterDeath]

 

Where does this gamers thee be holy idea even come from? Gamers aren't above and beyond any other demographic, and like all demographics, they tend to change over time. What you define as gamer, is based upon this rosey eyed version of the past glory days, and not based on the evolution of demographics.. Essentially you're(and other's who think of gamers as a static un-changing thing) basically like a crotchedy old man complaining about all them youngins' on your lawn... (Also makes it the conservative don't want to see society change around you type of mentality)

 

Wtf are you talking about?

It was in response to your comments on 'gamers are dead' article. I know you can read, and have selective reading comprehension, so I know you understood what I typed.

TDLR: I was saying you're like an old geezer, complaining about times-a-changing, when it comes to gamer demographics.

 

Who ever said they were journalists to begin with?

 

They did actually..

 

If Bill O'Reily, Rush Limbaugh, or Howard Stern said they were 'journalists' would you believe them?

[Nolder]

Well. Today was a low point no doubt about that.

I wont go over the e-celeb drama since I have no doubts some Gawker employee is laughing themselves silly writing tomorrow's article.

I will say that in the end it's not going to matter imo. None of the drama prevents anyone from sending emails and probably made some people redouble their efforts.

Add that to the fact that we are now contacting the FTC and requesting FOIA's I'd say it's endgame. Once the government steps in it's over.

[Nolder]

Oh and SD I did respond to you way earlier but scrapped the response because I didn't like it.

The gist of it was cut the passive aggressive crap or go back to D&D and O'Reily, for one, does have a degree in journalism and spent years as a reporter not that it has anything to do with anything.

[SinisterDeath]

Oh and SD I did respond to you way earlier but scrapped the response because I didn't like it.

The gist of it was cut the passive aggressive crap or go back to D&D and O'Reily, for one, does have a degree in journalism and spent years as a reporter not that it has anything to do with anything.

Should learn to use the above more often.

 

As for O'Reily's journalism degree. That doesn't matter if what he's doing isn't actually 'journalism'. He does a talk show, that's by and large an opinion piece That isn't to say he never does journalism, it's just not his main focus... 

Same goes for many other talk shows, and even "Gaming Journalists"  There main focus is opinion and ad-revenue.

[WWWwombat]

Nolder, given that many people on the outside question the motives of GamerGate, I don't see the focus on its origins as a genetic fallacy, but as an attempt to ontologically shed some light on the motivations of the movement.  It might be irrelevant to the points about ethics, but it is not irrelevant to the larger context and is a big reason why many people think that the actions early on have "poisoned the well."

[WWWwombat]

Furthermore, I don't think that continuing to harp on Grayson/Quinn will serve you very well.  Grayson gave Quinn's game a little coverage on RPS, but the only time he wrote about her for Kotaku was wrt Game Jam, so I don't see why Kotaku should have publicly reprimanded him right off the bat.  Add to that that this is an indie dev selling her game on a "pay what you want" model, and I don't get why it became such a big issue.  This is small potatoes compared to the kind of corruption that is actually rampant in gaming journalism.  EA is probably laughing in diabolical glee right now.

[Verbal32]

Thread is locked.  A few people can expect a PM from me.