#Gamergate

[Nolder]

No one here is talking about the Zoe Quinn incident?

I thought we had a lot of gamers here.

 

Edit: changed thread title to #Gamergate 10/30/14

[SinisterDeath]

Just read a little bit about this earlier...

 

So she slept with people who reviewed her game...

How is this any different than EA buying a good review?

Gaming 'Journalism' has been corrupt for years..

[Nolder]

Well yes.

I think the difference is that people expect that from AAA giants like EA and Activision but for better or worse indie devs are held to a higher standard.

We expect them to be the Good Guys who are in it for the love of games in contrast to the money grubbing corporate entities.

And honestly, it's not right that we just let EA and Co get away with that shit either.

 

Also a lot of info is coming out besides the initial story.

I've seen screen shots of journalists supporting kickstarters and patreons.

A lot of twitter screenshots where clear friendly (or more) correspondences take place long before the glowing reviews.

 

I think most people wouldn't have a problem with it (people are going to be friends and make relationships when they both work in the same industry, it happens) if it was disclosed but it isn't. And instead of admitting fault there has been a massive coverup. Kotaku, RPS, etc will NOT talk about it except to call gamers misogynists for being pissed about the situation and 4chans /v/ and multiple large subreddits were banning and deleting comments literally as fast as they possibly could. Did you see the Totalbiscuit thread on /r/gaming? It's a freaking graveyard of deleted comments. Hundreds and hundreds of [Comment delete] I don't even know where the comments kick back in I stopped checking after a couple pages.

 

You can't tell me that's a proper response to the situation.

[SinisterDeath]

Well yes.

I think the difference is that people expect that from AAA giants like EA and Activision but for better or worse indie devs are held to a higher standard.

We expect them to be the Good Guys who are in it for the love of games in contrast to the money grubbing corporate entities.

And honestly, it's not right that we just let EA and Co get away with that shit either.

 

Also a lot of info is coming out besides the initial story.

I've seen screen shots of journalists supporting kickstarters and patreons.

A lot of twitter screenshots where clear friendly (or more) correspondences take place long before the glowing reviews.

 

I think most people wouldn't have a problem with it (people are going to be friends and make relationships when they both work in the same industry, it happens) if it was disclosed but it isn't. And instead of admitting fault there has been a massive coverup. Kotaku, RPS, etc will NOT talk about it except to call gamers misogynists for being pissed about the situation and 4chans /v/ and multiple large subreddits were banning and deleting comments literally as fast as they possibly could. Did you see the Totalbiscuit thread on /r/gaming? It's a freaking graveyard of deleted comments. Hundreds and hundreds of [Comment delete] I don't even know where the comments kick back in I stopped checking after a couple pages.

 

You can't tell me that's a proper response to the situation.

Course not, but they have an industry 'clean' record to maintain, no?

 

I'm not surprised an indie dev got caught doing something the big boys have been doing for years.. This 'higher standard' thing is just something we 'tell' ourselves.

It's like organic foods. We 'hold them to a higher standard' because they 'claim' they are better than the corporations... But in reality, they do much of the same 'bullshit' as the big-guys.

Sometimes they even make 'shadier' practices because they aren't as scrutinized (by everyone, all the time) like the big boys are.. even while at the same time being held to a higher standard a standard that isn't often actually enforced, but implied.. 

 

"They produce high-quality food!"

"How do you know?"

"cause they are organic, that's how!"

"Does anyone inspect it?"

"No! they do it themselves! That's how they maintain there high-quality!"

 

That kinda logic...

[Nolder]

That's true.

I'm hoping the uproar causes some changes though.

People need to stop reading the trash that is Kotaku and IGN and just let them die already.

[Nolder]

This is what happens when you try to suppress information on the internet.

 

http://www.oppressionquest.com/

[Durinax]

IMO it's bad, but I don't really go to review sites much myself. If I do it's more to read about revealed features of games than to see reviews.

[Rasheta Ardashir]

IMO it's bad, but I don't really go to review sites much myself. If I do it's more to read about revealed features of games than to see reviews.

I'm with Duri I don't really go to review sites much, I do read Game informer occasionally but it's so rare that I don't really pay attention to the reviews they give either. I know what I like and go with that. I do enjoy Angry Joe if I need a review for a game I usually check to see if he reviewed it. He and I don't always agree because everyone is different, but he tends to be truer then anyone else I have found. 

[Nolder]

This is still raging and has moved far beyond Zoe Quinn.

Mainly on twitter #gamergate.

Games journalists aren't helping themselves. 

They all declared within hours of each other that the term "gamer" is dead.

 

https://archive.today/82HOL

Kotaku: “We Might Be Witnessing The ‘Death Of An Identiy’”

 

https://archive.today/mT118

Dan Golding: “The End of Gamers”

 

https://archive.today/nWG2P

Gamasutra: “'Gamers' don't have to be your audience. 'Gamers' are over.”

 

https://archive.today/2t93l

arstechnica: “The death of the “gamers” and the women who “killed” them”

 

https://archive.today/L4n6p

Vice: “This Guy's Embarrassing Relationship Drama Is Killing the 'Gamer' Identity”

 

https://archive.today/jVqJ8

Buzzefeed: “Gaming Is Leaving “Gamers” Behind”

[Nolder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3DZQp0StE

[Nolder]

The info just keeps pouring in...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgW5NRUfs44

[WWWwombat]

That's true.

I'm hoping the uproar causes some changes though.

People need to stop reading the trash that is Kotaku and IGN and just let them die already.

 

I already did that like 10 years ago.

[WWWwombat]

The gaming industry left gamers behind ages ago.  These days, the vast majority of the stuff that gets published is either casual games or a sequel, MMO, or some other transparent money-grab.  Not many publishers actually put out good games.  And then once a developer comes up with a couple good games in a row, someone like EA or Activision buys them out and turns their future products into the same artless garbage flooding the rest of the market.  Given this situation, widespread corruption among anyone in the industry doesn't surprise me.  The gaming industry is suffering from the same kinds of things that happen in any creative industry when it becomes mainstream and then becomes an actual industry.  I concluded a while ago that it had to get worse before it got better, so I don't see this kind of thing as surprising at all.

[WWWwombat]

FYI, a guy I used to play War3 with writes a blog on video games that I find quite refreshing.  It gets vulgar at points though, so idk if I should link it on DM.

[WWWwombat]

Nolder, I did a bit of reading on this and I'm still confused as hell.  The initial "scandal" didn't seem like much of a big deal to me.  Zoe Quinn's ex posted a rant accusing her of cheating on him and sleeping around to advance her career.  The only part of that that would even be remotely relevant imo would be the allegation that she traded sex for positive reviews, but as far as I can tell, the Kotaku writer in question never reviewed her game.

 

That being said, this whole thing has blown up into something that's showing a lot of what's wrong with both the community and the industry.  I do think sexism probably played into it to some degree.  Given the apparent lack of evidence for the initial claims and the fact that her accuser was her ex, I don't see why this should have blown up like this.

 

That being said, the mainstream coverage of the story so far has been all about the sexism angle and hasn't delved into the issues with journalists funding developers, which is a much more legitimate complaint imo, and for which there seems to be some evidence.

 

So basically, to me, from my limited reading, it looks like a really ugly, complex situation that shouldn't have happened in the first place but is now being distorted by establishment "journalists" on one side and bitter /v/tards on the other.

[Nolder]

Nolder, I did a bit of reading on this and I'm still confused as hell.  The initial "scandal" didn't seem like much of a big deal to me.

It's not really.

That's why the censorship that followed was ridiculous.

It was disproportionate to the "scandal" and the more the internet tried to cover it up the more interested people got.

It was the Streisand Effect in play.

 

Zoe Quinn's ex posted a rant accusing her of cheating on him and sleeping around to advance her career.  The only part of that that would even be remotely relevant imo would be the allegation that she traded sex for positive reviews, but as far as I can tell, the Kotaku writer in question never reviewed her game.

Yes, he wrote about the failed game jam she was on. Kotaku editor in chief Stephen Totilo put out a statement admitting to that let me find it real quick for you...

 

 

On March 31, Nathan published the only Kotaku article he's written involving Zoe Quinn. It was about Game Jam, a failed reality show that Zoe and other developers were upset about being on. At the time, Nathan and Zoe were professional acquaintances. He quoted blog posts written by Zoe and others involved in the show. Shortly after that, in early April, Nathan and Zoe began a romantic relationship. He has not written about her since. Nathan never reviewed Zoe Quinn's game Depression Quest, let alone gave it a favorable review. 

 

http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346

 

The point here is that they already had a relationship and it should have been disclosed. You don't need to believe that their romantic relationship started before the statement says it does, that's irrelevant although I have my doubts. The point is they were good friends going back awhile and all people were asking for was disclosure in the future. In response Nathan Greyson insulted & blocked pretty much anyone who said anything about it to him on twitter. Again, disproportionate response for what started as a reasonable request.

 

That being said, this whole thing has blown up into something that's showing a lot of what's wrong with both the community and the industry.  I do think sexism probably played into it to some degree.  Given the apparent lack of evidence for the initial claims and the fact that her accuser was her ex, I don't see why this should have blown up like this.

 

That being said, the mainstream coverage of the story so far has been all about the sexism angle and hasn't delved into the issues with journalists funding developers, which is a much more legitimate complaint imo, and for which there seems to be some evidence.

 

So basically, to me, from my limited reading, it looks like a really ugly, complex situation that shouldn't have happened in the first place but is now being distorted by establishment "journalists" on one side and bitter /v/tards on the other.

Regarding that last bit, you're wrong. You can say /v/ is the mastermind behind the campaign if you want but they're not alone. Tumblr, Reddit, Youtubers and even celebrities have all sided against the journalists. It's a complex situation like you said and there's a LOT to talk about. We can talk about how Youtuber Boogie2988 was fat shamed by the same people who accuse gamers of being sexists or worse. We can talk about Christina Hoff Sommers, philosophy professor and prominent feminist, coming out and blasting critics on twitter. We can talk about Silverstring Media and "how deep the rabbit hole goes". We can talk about the journalists doubling down on their anti gamer narrative. We can talk about the incestuous relationships between the indie game scene, the journalists, and PR. We can talk about the massive censorship. Wizardchan. PAX. #Gamergate. Kotaku no longer allowing Patreon funding while Polygon will.

 

There's a lot of stuff going on right now in relation to this story. It really isn't a simple "us vs them" thing. I don't think most people even want that. They just want the stupid crap to stop, the insulting and abusive journalists fired, and a better separation between the indie scene and journalists. That's not much to ask I think.

[OptimusPrime]

FYI, a guy I used to play War3 with writes a blog on video games that I find quite refreshing.  It gets vulgar at points though, so idk if I should link it on DM.

 

Just link it. With the above caveat you've already covered your ring

[WWWwombat]

Ok.  He hasn't written about Zoe Quinn yet as far as I can tell, because I don't think he thinks it's a big deal.

 

http://www.learntocounter.com/

[Nolder]

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/17/Exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite

 

As the censorship on reddit and 4chan ramps back up this comes out.

I want off this ride.

[Nolder]

A good overview for people who want to know what this is all about.

 

 

 

[Nolder]

Apparently one of the few places left to discuss Gamergate openly, The Escapist forums, was DDOS'd yesterday. Specifically the Gamergate thread.
Still wondering how far this thing is going to go. 

 

Meanwhile here's a nice parody from /v/ before moot nuked 4chan for his girlfriend.

 

[Silver]

I've only recently read about this so a lot of the facts are already out about it. It doesn't seem like there's really a scandal here.They had a intimate relationship, he never reviewed her games. For me, that's end of story.

 

 

 

http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346

 

The point here is that they already had a relationship and it should have been disclosed. You don't need to believe that their romantic relationship started before the statement says it does, that's irrelevant although I have my doubts. The point is they were good friends going back awhile and all people were asking for was disclosure in the future. In response Nathan Greyson insulted & blocked pretty much anyone who said anything about it to him on twitter. Again, disproportionate response for what started as a reasonable request.

 

 

 

There are a lot of types of relationships. Some are close like friends, some are business, some are casual. Since they met during business, I'm assuming it was just that. It may be because I'm terrible at remembering people but if you asked me about business acquaintances I met last week, I wouldn't even remember their name. I also tend to meet a lot of people for business. Does that mean I have to disclose that I had a relationship with that person who I can barely remember? I don't think so.

 

Yes, it should have been disclosed if they were close acquaintances, but we don't know when their relationship reached a level to require disclosure. 

[Nolder]

Forget Zoe Quinn and Nathan Greyson if you want, there's far more going on here.

The whole thing with FEZ & IGF & Indiecade for example.

 

Or, you know what? Forget that too if you want.

Forget all the scandalous and possibly even illegal things going on in the background here. 

How about the simple fact that these people by and large are bad at their jobs?

 

Steam recently came out with their "Curator" program, whatever that is, and just check out this recommendation by Kotaku for Skyrim: 

http://store.steampowered.com/curator/6855993/?appid=72850

"Obscure, but that's part of the charm. An underrated gem. "

 

Skyrim. Made by triple A company Bethesda.

It's obscure and underrated but that's part of it's charm.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

 

Here's a review for Tropico 5 from Polygon: 

http://www.polygon.com/2014/6/4/5720864/tropico-5-review-wasted-away-again

In the reviewers own words "Tropico 5 succeeded in making me feel powerful, and it enabled me to create a world in my image. But the game so entirely lacks compassion that it made me feel like a bully. There's an undeniable tension between the player, in the role of The Dictator, and the citizens."

 

Tropico, the series about managing your own dictatorship, made the reviewer feel bad because it was too fun instead of tackling tough real world issues so they gave it a 6.5/10.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

 

These people don't know what the hell they're doing.

They can't review games in any meaningful way that's relevant to the people actually buying games.

Put all of the other negative crap aside and you are still left with companies that are incompetent at best and malicious to the very industry they're supposed to cover at worst.

[Nolder]

Intel has dropped advertising on Gamasutra. It's working.

[Nolder]

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1175414