[Advanced] Twilight Mafia Game over - Mafia win

[Lenlo]

So I wanted to say this sooner rather than later.

 

Des what I meant by agree to disagree wasn't that Tina was town/scum, I meant it in reference to why you think she's town. You think something is towny that I think is scummy and vice versa. I understand the mistake though as I wasn't clear cause I had no quote, I just threw it out there.

[hazelkrs1]

So I think Tina is town because she put out a #gamestarter vote that looked to be trying to get reactions, then followed it up with analytical posts showing she was studying those reactions. I find this to be a strong indication of someone trying to #solve.

 

Do you think that is scummy? If so, why?

 

If the game is mostly fluff and little gameplay, which favors the scumteam, do you think it would be a good idea to try and stop that and get more gameplay going?

 

Cause generally speaking, that's not a good idea for a scummie to do.

 

It could have been done to try and get towncred, but again, the way she followed it up makes this less likely imo.

 

Work with me here Lenlo.

[Lenlo]

I will des. Let me get to a real keyboard and I'll answer all that ok?

[hazelkrs1]

No prob. At the very least I find your willingness to discuss to be protown.

 

Can't promise I'll be awake too too much longer however

[Verbal32]

Marking my spot - I'm on Page 12.

 

 

Despot making something out of nothing is generally his Day 1 town MO - if I know this then Darthe knows this, so if he has something on Des besides that I'm quite interested

 

True, but Des backed off waayyyyy too easily IMO.  Town-Des would be still beating the dead horse and not letting it go.

 

 

 

 

I anticipate Des to present charismatic arguments, force situations and generally flare on people to boost their reactivity.  He then takes their reactions and uses those to whittle away at them.  It is him regardless of if he is town or scum and regardless of if he is on town or scum though in time he has become better at recognizing the differences.  

 

However, town Des is going to attack.  He is suicidal town and he is going to play to WIN on D1 because he knows he is either getting lynched for being entirely wrong or getting NK'd for being entirely right by the 3rd phase.  

 

Mafia Des won't do this.  He plays with the same bravado to imitate it but his tone changes because he can't afford to lose himself and he tends to not trust his team to win on their own.  He wants to remain in control of the situations and so he will be more conscientious.  

 

Any time I catch des caring for his own life, attempting to keep control or leaving himself a way out of every situation I go for it.  Here we see the first and third.  

 

Agree with the meta assessment, which is why I'm suspicious as noted above.

[hazelkrs1]

Well, at least it posts again.

 

</3 Team Jacob

[Lenlo]

So I think Tina is town because she put out a #gamestarter vote that looked to be trying to get reactions, then followed it up with analytical posts showing she was studying those reactions. I find this to be a strong indication of someone trying to #solve.

 

Do you think that is scummy? If so, why?

I think it null that she did it to get the game going, thats fine. What I didnt like it was she voted and then tossed to the baton to anyone that would pick it up, which just so happened to be you. Now I think its null because everyone would want the game to get going, scum and town alike imo but thats cause whenever im mafia I enjoy getting into the thick of things and worming my way out.

 

If the game is mostly fluff and little gameplay, which favors the scumteam, do you think it would be a good idea to try and stop that and get more gameplay going?

Yes it would be a good idea, I just disagree with the way she did it. If she had stuck around and answered Jacks accusations or atleast continued to push it it would have been fine. The nwhen she finally comes back she doesnt vie a read on the major players in the confrontation. She just recaps everything that happened and then basically calls you all null. Thats scummy and fence sitting imo and Prals def of "Well its only 15 pages of gameplay how can she get reads in that" is bad. You can easily get reads in that. Specially with that kinda confrontation. ((Think it was Pral that said that?))

 

Cause generally speaking, that's not a good idea for a scummie to do.

Depends on the player imo. You and I as scum have no problem jump starting crap and getting into the middle of things cause for me atleast its alot funner than just sitting out and being passive. Dunno bout your motivations. :P

 

It could have been done to try and get towncred, but again, the way she followed it up makes this less likely imo.

She didnt follow it up well though imo, which is where we are disagreeing. I think her followup was bad and you think it was good.

 

Work with me here Lenlo.

First get me a nice cup of tea, Earl Grey White 2 drops of honey and some cream. Chop chop.

[hazelkrs1]

You didn't blue the last part. Therefore it is a formatting fail and I don't have to respond to it.

 

In all seriousness I hope you realize my disdain for the colored-in-quote style. Anyhoo.

 

Response is good overall, and Meh I'll likely attempt a reread of the events with a different perspective to reeval on Tina.

 

But still don't think she's the lynch today either way. Imo there are much better targets. What do you think about the TMI slip I pointed out on Clov? Do you think Jack could still be scum, even if Tina is after all?

[Lenlo]

Blast I did forget to color it! Now I wont get my tea... Sorry bout the color in quotes style but the way you setup those questions it really was the easiest way to answer it bit by bit so you knew which one I was answering.

 

For Jack... I dont wanna lynch Jack. I dont agree with your whyme fryme reasoning on him. Im not LOCK CLEAR ((Oh god I hate myself now)) on him, but just as you are with Tina I dont think hes the best lynch for today.

 

for Clov I can see how you would think that a slip and im alright with lynching him. So far id prefer a Tina lynch, but Clov also looks good. I disagree completely on the Salami train if you hadnt guessed btw.

[dawnflower8]

 

 

Think about the other 2 games I've played. I was scum in both of those. And I don't think I'm really playing the same way as I did the other games, am I? Other games I was scum and was contributing more (even though I did joke around a lot in my last game.)

 

*flaps wings and clucks like a chicken*

 

 

This post right here- defending yourself by attempting to use your own meta- only strengthens the scumread I have on you Dawn.

 

Think about it for a sec.

 

How difficult would it be to change your playstyle a bit, after a couple of games as scum, in order to use this exact defense at this point? Not that difficult at all. This makes the point you raised completely moot.

 

Furthermore as a newer player, your meta is much more subject to change than most, but honestly I would contest that your play isn't even all that different. I don't care to compare those games with this one however- in this one, your play has seemed scummy to me. You have pretty much failed to contribute anything to the scumhunt, even tho you've been somewhat active. You extended RVS jokes past the stage where they were relevant. You tried blaming your lack of serious play on your PR, even tho your non-serious play was the reason you got a PR in the first place.

 

So why shouldn't I find you scummy, Dawn?

 

And while we're at it- what do you think of me? Do you think I'm scum? Do you have any confident town reads?

 

What you said about the playstyle is pretty true - especially since, at this point, I am playing worse than I did in my last 2 games (not worse as in scummier, worse as in seeming more new) when I think about it. 

 

I'm not getting very good reads this game. Yes, you are at the top of my list for scum - and not just because you are Team Jacob. If that was the case, I'd probably have unvoted you by now and voted Tina or Clov (the other 2 I have scum reads for) instead. The tone of your posts sounds kind of similar to the tone of someone who happened to be mafia in another game I played.

 

Since 3 seems to be the usual number of scum in a game, I'm guessing that the 3 scum are you, Tina, and Clov. 

 

Honsetly, Csarmi does not seem very scummy to me.

[Darthe]

Bullshanks.

 

I miss Mynd.

 

Is verb the Dr. Cox of this forum? I think yes.

[Lenlo]

Mynd was awesome.

[Darthe]

@Dawn then why arent you voting him?

[dawnflower8]

@Dawn then why arent you voting him?

Voting who? I voted Despo.

 

*flaps wings and clucks like a chicken*

[Darthe]

Apologies, I didnt recall.

[Niniel]

Right now I´m mostly waiting for Csarmi and Clov to post. I want to see where Csarmi stand and what Clov has to say about that post that Des pointed out. 

 

I could switch my vote back to Jack. I agree with pretty much everything that Des has said about him. 

[Clovdyx]

 

 

Emphasized a potential slip here- Clov might have a priori knowledge that I'm town. He doesn't say if I got mislynched as town or trained and then flipped town, he simply says if I had gotten trained today (and eventually lynched) that he'd be looking at Cory. Looks like he might have just spewed me town and him scum in one precious moment

I think you and I are operating under somewhat different definitions of the word "trained".  Freight trained, bandwagonned, whatever you want to call it - lots of people jumping on.  That can happen to either scum or town, and because of that, I likely wouldn't be overly concerned with what your alignment was.  I think it's reasonable to say that you have had one of the largest, if not THE largest, case in the game brought against you thus far.  In fact, it's about as in depth as you can really hope to go D1.  IMO that's inviting scum to jump on it if you're town, and if you're not, I would certainly expect a teammate or two to hop on to earn townie points.  

Given that Dawn was on you early and had refused to move her vote, I wouldn't assume the scum would be here.

Since Darthe was the one really going out of his way to build the case, it's probably not him.

That leaves Cory among those who had voted for you.

 

Bold- I disagree entirely with your notion that I try staying alive as long as possible as scum and don't trust my teammates. I can prove this as well if you like.

Since it's under discussion, my mafia meta is actually not to care about survival whatsoever, and I'm pretty sure I've explained this to Darthe before. I'm generally too high profile to hope I'll never be viewed by an investigative role or targeted by a Vig of some kind or something, so I've tailored my play accordingly to still allow me to be affective. I actually will start the game expecting to die at some point, so I'll prepare for that eventuality by tying myself to townies and sowing as much wifom as I can so that town chases a bunch of dead ends looking for my teammates after I die. Again, I'm pretty sure me and Darthe have discussed this before- that we are lodestones for PR's.

It's certainly not a sample size large enough to be of any significance, but in the one game I've played with you as scum, I didn't get that vibe from you at all.  IIRC you were pretty busy at the time, so that could account for it, but you were one of the more reserved players until later in the game.

 

Like I just explained above, I don't care whether or not I get lynched as town or mafia. If I'm town, I think it will usually be because of a derp on town's part. If I'm scum I hope that I left behind enough wifom to help my team out.

 
Bold is terribad, and if you don't care in any case, I don't care to not Vote Despot.  Best case scenario, your repeated misrepresentation and bandwagon hopping is because you don't really care who gets lynched today.  Worst case scenario, I'm lynching somebody who doesn't care enough to put forth an effort to defend themselves?  Good enough odds for me.

 

I´m starting to get conserns about Jack and Lenlo because of their votes on me. I thought Jack was "playing along" to help me get the game starting but he still thinks my vote on him is the scummiest thing that have happened in the game.

@Jack - should I have voted you and written "This is just a vote to get the game started"? Doesn´t work very well, right? Explaining myself too early isn´t very good in cases like this, mostly because there were no reason for picking you. Not that most people didn´t get it anyway.

I like this explanation, and your concern about Jack makes to me.  I thought you at least owed an answer for your sudden vote of him, but I think you've been reasonable with it.

 

@Des I love how you say Tina needs more attention, and that she would of got more if not for you being cased. I however continue to apply pressure and poke at her for get blatant scumminess yet she is lock clear for you. That's pretty gross.

What have you done to convince him that she shouldn't be cleared?

 

Don't really like this vote. He mentions putting pressure on her but it looks more like wanting to push her case further.
 
After Tina's response, he is still good about his read on her

Most of your catch up looked good to me, but this seemed off to me.  What's the difference between putting pressure and pushing the case further?  Lenlo said that he wanted to put pressure on Tina, stated his reasoning, and voted.  That's not adding pressure?

 

If you are/were town, you could continue voting Tina for all I cared, I just would have wanted to see you trying to garner support for the train then in that case. The manner in which you have followed up on your reads this game does not look organic to me, does not look like you trying to actually hunt scum.

You have now seemingly accused (at least) three different people of not actually hunting scum.  One was me, when I was questioning you earlier in the phase.  You have done so with Jack to Tina.  And it looks like you're getting at with your question to Lenlo about pushing Tina versus putting for Tina.

Why is it only scumhunting when it's towards players you're okay with?

[Clovdyx]

Apparently {Quote = name} (with correct brackets) is not the way to get the poster's name to show up in a quote.

[Niniel]

 

 

 

Think about the other 2 games I've played. I was scum in both of those. And I don't think I'm really playing the same way as I did the other games, am I? Other games I was scum and was contributing more (even though I did joke around a lot in my last game.)

 

*flaps wings and clucks like a chicken*

 

 

This post right here- defending yourself by attempting to use your own meta- only strengthens the scumread I have on you Dawn.

 

Think about it for a sec.

 

How difficult would it be to change your playstyle a bit, after a couple of games as scum, in order to use this exact defense at this point? Not that difficult at all. This makes the point you raised completely moot.

 

Furthermore as a newer player, your meta is much more subject to change than most, but honestly I would contest that your play isn't even all that different. I don't care to compare those games with this one however- in this one, your play has seemed scummy to me. You have pretty much failed to contribute anything to the scumhunt, even tho you've been somewhat active. You extended RVS jokes past the stage where they were relevant. You tried blaming your lack of serious play on your PR, even tho your non-serious play was the reason you got a PR in the first place.

 

So why shouldn't I find you scummy, Dawn?

 

And while we're at it- what do you think of me? Do you think I'm scum? Do you have any confident town reads?

 

What you said about the playstyle is pretty true - especially since, at this point, I am playing worse than I did in my last 2 games (not worse as in scummier, worse as in seeming more new) when I think about it. 

 

I'm not getting very good reads this game. Yes, you are at the top of my list for scum - and not just because you are Team Jacob. If that was the case, I'd probably have unvoted you by now and voted Tina or Clov (the other 2 I have scum reads for) instead. The tone of your posts sounds kind of similar to the tone of someone who happened to be mafia in another game I played.

 

Since 3 seems to be the usual number of scum in a game, I'm guessing that the 3 scum are you, Tina, and Clov. 

 

Honsetly, Csarmi does not seem very scummy to me.

 

 

Then what are your reasons for suspecting me and Clov? 

[Niniel]

Clov - I don´t understand your reason for voting Des. Is it because he said that he expects to die early? 

 

About the train thing - I can take that explanation. 

[Clovdyx]

Clov - I don´t understand your reason for voting Des. Is it because he said that he expects to die early? 

 

About the train thing - I can take that explanation. 

 

That, and a combination of everything he's done this game - following you on lynches and blindly defending you ("buddying up", as he'd put it) while completely blowing off somewhat valid concerns that Lenlo and Jack have raised, seemingly contradicting himself, train hopping, lynching me for questioning him earlier, and his overall reaction to pressure.  For example, the eyeroll post in response to Darthe's first big post.

 

The fact he claims not to care if he's lynched is just icing on the cake.

[Leelou]

Vote Count

 

Salami (3) - Hallia, Tina, Cory

Des-Des (3) - Dawn, Darthe, Jack

Tina (1) - Lenlo

Verbal (1) - Clov

Cory (1) - Dice

Clov (1) - Des

Lenlo (1) - Pral

 

Not Voting - BFG, Salami, Verbal

 

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

 

DEADLINE: Tuesday, Noon EST 

[Leelou]

Please unvote before voting again. 

[Verbal32]

Yay back at work again! Just in time for another wot too!

 

Didn't want to leave the entire quote in there, and forgot to spoiler it.  Meh.  My point is that I liked this post - his thoughts were transparent and fluid.  Me likey.

 

 

 

 

Also des I still have my vote on Tina. And I address her vote and game play at every opportunity that's afforded itself. I just don't see the purpose of making non stop posts pointing out the same.

 

1. I addressed it in my initial vote

2. I addressed it to you

3. I addressed it in my player profiling

4 I addressed it to bfg

5. I'm addressing it now. So 5 times isn't letting it slide and reverting back to initial points.

 

Me not likey.  Wouldn't a townie want to convince the other players of his casing, because you know you're coming from an honest scumhunting standpoint?

 

 

 

 

 

Bullshanks.

I miss Mynd.

 

Is verb the Dr. Cox of this forum? I think yes.

 

 

I feel like this might be an insult and compliment at the same time, heh.

[Verbal32]

Also, 100% caught up.  Today was busier than I expected - Mon mornings are my usual weekend catchup.