question about bonding

[isleofjib]

was rereading CoT and something about the AS struck me as odd. when alanna bonds rand (and all the other AS bond any of the asha'man) she can't use the warder bond to control him (them). however, when the asha'man bond their AS, they can compel them to obey, not try to escape, do nothing against the BT, etc. i haven't seen anything in the books to explain why this is. does anyone know (or have any guesses) why AS can't control the asha'man, but the asha'man can control the AS when bonded?

[Verbal32]

That's a very good question. Never thought of it. I thought Logain was the only one that use the bond to do that though. Regardless, perhaps a bit of Compulsion was used? Or maybe that is a weakness of having a man bond a woman? Or maybe none of the above?

[isleofjib]

from what's written in the prologue, it seems to apply to all the AS that were bonded by the asha'man. i think one of them says something about all of them being constrained by their bonds.

[icspots]

I think it's one more example of the balance of power between men and women.

 

For instance take strength in the power vs. physical strength. Men are bigger and have bigger muscles (most of the time) and men have more brute strength when it comes to the power (again, most of the time). This was balanced (at least according to Asmodean) by women being able to link without men.

 

I think it's just another "Men are typically stronger than women" thing that allows the Asha'man to resist the bond's....... compulsion. I don't think Complusion itself has been woven around the Aes Sedai.... but perhaps there's a difference in the way the men figured out the bond that makes it a bit different. Remember, it was originally for the men who were married, so that they could know their wife's were okay. [sarcasm]I mean put yourself in their shoes. What married man has ever wanted to be able to make his wife do exactly what he told her. [/sarcasm]

[Albert]

I think it had to do with when men are wrapped in the One Power, they aren't affected by Compulsion. There's a quote from Sammael in one of the books saying something about 'Those tricks (Compulsion) don't work on men wrapped in the Source', or something similar. Rand was holding Saidin when Alanna tried to compell him, so it didn't work.

[chemteach1977]

The title of the chapter where Logain captures and bonds his AS is "The Extra Bit." He explains that he added something extra to the bond that required obedience. I would guess the spouse bonds do not usually have the extra bit.

"The Extra Bit" sounds an awful lot like compulsion. Which some AS suggested when bonding AM. There will be some explosions if the AS find out compulsion was used on the sisters from the tower.

[Luckers]

I believe it to be inherent to the nature of Saidin, which is inherently chaotic. A man who is mind is wrapped in that chaos, already battling it for dominance, would be immensely hard to control. Impossible, apparently, if Sammael's comments are to be believed. And this is certainly backed up by Rand's experiences with the warder bond.

 

Saidar, on the other hand, does not seem to afford the same protection. We have seen compulsion used against Nynaeve, Elaye, Moghedian and Cyndane when they were holding the source, and work. Maybe it is because of the tranquility of saidar, or because women submit to saidar rather then fight it... who knows.

[MsDanya]

wasnt the thing about Rand and Alanna that Rand was jsut too strong willed to be controlled by the Bond? after all, he didnt go there willingly. I think Alanna mentiones it somewhere. I dont remember where.

[Luckers]

No. If Lan can be controlled by the bond, then Rand can be. No this was specific to the effects of holding saidin on the use of compulsion, or any other such similar weave.

[Verbal32]

I believe it to be inherent to the nature of Saidin' date=' which is inherently chaotic. A man who is mind is wrapped in that chaos, already battling it for dominance, would be immensely hard to control. Impossible, apparently, if Sammael's comments are to be believed. And this is certainly backed up by Rand's experiences with the warder bond.

 

Saidar, on the other hand, does not seem to afford the same protection. We have seen compulsion used against Nynaeve, Elaye, Moghedian and Cyndane when they were holding the source, and work. Maybe it is because of the tranquility of saidar, or because women submit to saidar rather then fight it... who knows.[/quote']

 

Luckers, I think you've hit the nail right on the head. To me, at least!!

[MsDanya]

well, I think Alanna describes it as trying to uproot an oak or something with her bare hands. so its his channelingabilities that she's referring to?

[Luckers]

More like trying to affect his mind whilst it was engaged in a fight with saidin was like trying to uproot an oak.

[MsDanya]

(sorry for being a nag about this :P )

 

but Rand isnt in a constant fight with Saidin? and Alanna claims that she has tried to controll him many times with the Bond but that she always fails. maybe I misunderstood your post, but I dont think that she could control him no matter what she did.

[isleofjib]

and Alanna claims that she has tried to controll him many times with the Bond but that she always fails. maybe I misunderstood your post' date=' but I dont think that she could control him no matter what she did.[/quote']

 

this is my understanding too. and i can't remember if rand was holding saidin when he was bonded but i don't recall that being the case. either way, it seems highly unlikely all the asha'man were holding saidin when they were bonded and we've seen no evidence any of the AS can command them.

 

also, even the warder bond ins't exactly like compulsion, there is an element of it in the bond. that is why the AS can make their warders obey them.

 

i'm inclined to think luckers may be on to something without the need to be using the OP to resist the compulsion.

 

is there anywhere in the books where a male channeler is compelled to do something? lanfear v. asmo maybe (those early books are a little fuzzy in my memory)?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Alanna claims that she has tried to controll him many times with the Bond but that she always fails.

 

As far as I know, she only tried one time. Where did she claim to have tried many?

[mikedotcom12]

No. If Lan can be controlled by the bond' date=' then Rand can be. No this was specific to the effects of holding saidin on the use of compulsion, or any other such similar weave.[/quote']

 

No you are wrong... Moraine attempted to use compulsion on Rand by way of the coin...reread EotW when she is talking with Suin. She also makes mention to Lan when she told him about passing of the bond that she never tried to use compulsion on him.

 

Alanna has tried to manipulate Rand in this way, but it is his stubborness that prevents it from working. Also, the Ashaman did add something special to the bond which is outlined in the books to make the Aes Sedai obey them as if bond to the oath rod.

[Albert]

I'm not really sure what you mean how Moraine attempted Compulsion 'by way of the coin', but Moraine, afaik, doesn't know Compulsion, not even a put-together weave that Verin can. I don't have my books here atm so can't check up on what Moraine said or didn't say to Suine, but I am sure that stubborness has no effect against Compulsion...

How could being stubborn protect you against it?

If it would be affected by it, I doubt Nynaeve would have been Compulsed so easily...

But it isn't, since there's a direct quote from Sammael saying that men wrapped in Saidin can't be Compulsed. Seeing as Sammael was an Aes Sedai in AoL, he should know.

[Simple Gleeman]

I don't really think you can relate bonds made with saidar to those made with saidin. The same word is used but that doesn't make them at all the same.

 

Both men and woman have to "invent the wheel" so to speak. Its very likely they approached the problem differently and came up with slightly different results. Thats besides the fact that saidar and saidin are weaved differently to produce the same effect - gateways for example.

 

Healing. Healing is water, spirit, and air. But Nynaeve uses everything. Two different weaves of the same source that produce similar results.

 

Also, we know that one of Perrin's Asha'man has bonded his wife. I think this suggests there could be two saidin-made bonds, though its not proof.

 

 

I think it would be possible for Aes Sedai to invent another bond that allows for compulsion on male channelers and the only reason the current one does not, is simply because the weave is less complex.

[MsDanya]

Alanna claims that she has tried to controll him many times with the Bond but that she always fails.

 

As far as I know' date=' she only tried one time. Where did she claim to have tried many?[/quote']

 

I might be remembering wrong, but I Think she told the Aes Sedai in that inn that she had tried several times after the Bonding to control him. again, its jsut somehting I remember.. might not have happened at all! :D

[Guest Fire Lord]

I can't remember the exact worlds Alanna used, but she tells Verin something like : moments after she bonded him she tried to compel him, and it was like uprooting an oak.

 

Now, knowing that he can channel, I would think that Alanna would try to compel him quickly before he has recovered enough to do anything with the Power.

 

Hmm, that led me to thinking that it was Rand's strong will and stubborness that kept Alanna from compelling him.

 

No. If Lan can be controlled by the bond, then Rand can be.

 

I assume it is meant here that both men have strong wills, and that whatever is possible for Lan is the same for Rand. However, Lan willingly accepted to become a Warder, Rand didn't. I would think that counts for something.

[Thor]

No. I think resistance to the bond is due to the relative strength in the power.

[Guest Fire Lord]

Hmm, that could be an option, I don't know. Since Saidin and Saidar are different, how do you suppose a man's strength relates to a woman's?

 

But if it were true, perhaps only Lanfear could manage to compel Rand? But seeing he is that much stronger than her...

 

An aside note; I've seen several women in the books making allusions to men's strength in the Power. Moiraine tells Rand that he is so much stronger than her, and a black sister says that Taim can channel incredibly strong, near as much as Rand. How do they know that? There was not another man to tell them how strong they were.

 

Elyane and Egwene say that it was like being shaken by a mastiff (or something like that) when Rand channels on them, but that is not enough explanation.

[Mat is the Boss]

Moiraine has probably figured out that Rand is as strong as LTT was, and he was the strongest in AoL. Moiraine herself is not the strongest Aes Sedai, and since Egwene and Elayne is much stronger than her, and Nynaeve is much stronger than them again, Moiraine can imagine how much stronger Rand must be.

 

The Aes Sedai can rate Taim`s strenght by how many Aes Sedai were necessary to bring him down. They know that Rand is the strongest male, and since Taim is very strong, he must be close to Rand.

[Guest Fire Lord]

Oh yeah, that makes sense...

Can't think straight these days... :oops:

That means one thing: I must go and re-re-read the books, even if it was only last year that I re-read them... :?

[rd2000]

I would think that Rand being the strongest Ta'veren ever would have a major affect on the use of compulsion on him. Using compulsion on Ta'veren can be viewed as changing the direction a thread is woven into the pattern. The Wheel itself would fight such an attempt, just by its very nature.