2nd most powerful Sangrael a man can use?

[mb]

"what was once" seems to indicate some kind of transformation.  That transformation could indicate that it changed its side; depending on at least 1 thing::  which side did the transforming.

[Orderofolde]

Also could of been if it was made up of two pieces that each side had one peace, so maybe no one could use it during the age of legends.

There isn't too much known about this even with River of Souls.  From hints Demandred knows or gives us, Sakarnen was made in the war of Power but was hidden (likely much as Callandor was made and placed in the Stone by prophesy) by hints of Dark Prophesy that precluded its later use as a great weapon for the Shadow in the future.  Being one of the Forsaken he knows of its existence and goes searching for it in Shara and finds the scepter piece before being summoned by the Great Lord of the Dark to Shayol Ghul.  He defeats an adult Jumara (possibly a real dragon as all jumara are in larval form, and larvae usually turn into winged creatures) and a Green Man in the Cavern that is the source for the River of Souls, a "stream" in Shara that passes through the vibrant green trees filling a valley upon which silk worms feed.  This nearly kills him, but he gains the cup portion to the weapon.  Given what we know of the AOL Aes Sedai setting things up like the Eye(s) of the World to protect a Seal of the Dark One's prison and to hide the Horn of Valere and the Dragon Banner, Callandor and the Stone of Tear, and the secret machinations of both sides (securing the ter'angreal access keys for the Chodan Kal) it is possible that the Side of Light had a small victory and obtained the cup portion of D'jedt or Sakarnen and hid it away with a Green Man to protect it.  Given the presence of an adult Jumara, it is also very possible that the Shadow separated the pieces and hid them away.

 

As the Forsaken are among the most powerful of the Dark Side's channelers, and more powerful that most Aes Sedai until the discovery of Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve's channeling talent and strength, the Forsaken did not necessarily need Angrel or Sa'angreal.  Otherwise we would have seen the White Tower's trove, The Stone of Tear, and Rhuidean raided all long since.  They seemed to place more value on particular ter'angreal than Angreal and Sa'angreal.

[Sabio]

Thanks for that info,  I really need to read the River of Souls.  For me it wouldn't make sense if the shadow had both pieces why split them apart and hide them unless it was so Dem went through all of that so he could become the Sharan's chosen one.  Which to me would mean the Sharan's were destined all along to serve the shadow in the final battle. 

 

I thought I read in one of the books or it being hinted to that the reason they didn't snoop around more in the Stone of tear was the fear it had been trapped.  I am sure Mes looked around the White Tower trove but probably couldn't take much because it was warded, thought she probably gave the order for what the BA took.

[mb]

Mesaana probably had enough knowledge to unravel any wards the Aes Sedia woven around angreal/sa'angreal/terangreal.  And since she was a Sitter, she probably had authority to take anything.

 

Not sure if Mesaana was around when the 13 Blacks escaped the White Tower.

Ishamael seems more probable on who gave the order.

[Sabio]

Mes was spun out, the theft happened book 3 and by then we know Lanfear was about, Sam was in Illian, Rhavin in Andor, and Bel'al was in tear.   So she was more then likely awake, though no way of knowing for sure when she went and hide in the tower.  As for unraveling a ward, can a ward be unraveled with no one knowing?  It might of been Ishy if the theft was simply part of the trap Rand plan.  Could of been that since the tower has really good records what was kept so instead of sneaking about and risk setting off a ward just have the BA storm in and grab the stuff.  I am sure once Rhudiean's fog was gone all the forsaken took a look around not to mention probably looking through the wagons. 

[Dagon Thyne]

 

 

Loial states it was a few days between the razing of the Hall and the attack on Shayol Ghul. There are a lot of comments from the Forsaken that hint that this razing marked imminent victory for the Shadow, as the Light's resources were diminishing, and not just people

Some quotes would be great. I'm blanking for some reason. Thanks.

 

Pretty sure there's no such quote. There's not even evidence the Third Agers knew of the Hall of Servants. All we know is that Aginor boasts of facing Lews Therin there.

 

The only time I can recall the HOS ever being mentioned by name is by Rand, when he is accessing his memories as LLT and by the forsaken, and by Rand's ancestors during his trial to prove he's the Car'a'carn. 

[Orderofolde]

Mesaana probably had enough knowledge to unravel any wards the Aes Sedia woven around angreal/sa'angreal/terangreal.  And since she was a Sitter, she probably had authority to take anything.

 

Not sure if Mesaana was around when the 13 Blacks escaped the White Tower.

Ishamael seems more probable on who gave the order.

It is obvious that Semi or one of her cohorts was able to undo the protective weaves on Cadsuane's box to acquire the male A'dam which she used against Rand.  I get the feel though that the warding on the trove was something older, or maybe it was one of Rand's earlier LTT moments where he recognized the dangers of leaving the stuff unprotected and warded it with something nasty.  

[Orderofolde]

 

 

 

Loial states it was a few days between the razing of the Hall and the attack on Shayol Ghul. There are a lot of comments from the Forsaken that hint that this razing marked imminent victory for the Shadow, as the Light's resources were diminishing, and not just people

Some quotes would be great. I'm blanking for some reason. Thanks.

 

Pretty sure there's no such quote. There's not even evidence the Third Agers knew of the Hall of Servants. All we know is that Aginor boasts of facing Lews Therin there.

 

The only time I can recall the HOS ever being mentioned by name is by Rand, when he is accessing his memories as LLT and by the forsaken, and by Rand's ancestors during his trial to prove he's the Car'a'carn. 

 

Ishy also brings it up in the beginning of the first book when he is taunting LTT after he heals the madness and lets him see that he killed his family.  Something to the effects of "You are the man that defeated/bested me in the Hall of the Servants...how can this be?"  Referring to LTT's being broken and reduced to wretchedness as he holds Illyena.

[Sabio]

I wonder with Cadsuane's weave if it was undone because maybe the Aes Sedai who was BA saw her do it, or Cas might not of known how to invert her weaves.  I remember Rand had to tell the Asha'man how to undo the weaves he put on Callador.  And the Asha'man was a bit upset because he nearly died because Rand forgot to tell him some stuff.  Another concern with places like the White Tower and Tear you would have to be careful undoing wards because it would require the power and rooms so full of objects just channeling in the same room could accidently set off something. 

[Orderofolde]

I wonder with Cadsuane's weave if it was undone because maybe the Aes Sedai who was BA saw her do it, or Cas might not of known how to invert her weaves.  I remember Rand had to tell the Asha'man how to undo the weaves he put on Callador.  And the Asha'man was a bit upset because he nearly died because Rand forgot to tell him some stuff.  Another concern with places like the White Tower and Tear you would have to be careful undoing wards because it would require the power and rooms so full of objects just channeling in the same room could accidently set off something. 

The weaves would not be obvious.  Remember Siuan's box in her study that Elaida opens and all her papers flame to ashes?  She didn't know that they were there and inverting weaves wasn't known then.

[Dagon Thyne]

 

I wonder with Cadsuane's weave if it was undone because maybe the Aes Sedai who was BA saw her do it, or Cas might not of known how to invert her weaves.  I remember Rand had to tell the Asha'man how to undo the weaves he put on Callador.  And the Asha'man was a bit upset because he nearly died because Rand forgot to tell him some stuff.  Another concern with places like the White Tower and Tear you would have to be careful undoing wards because it would require the power and rooms so full of objects just channeling in the same room could accidently set off something. 

The weaves would not be obvious.  Remember Siuan's box in her study that Elaida opens and all her papers flame to ashes?  She didn't know that they were there and inverting weaves wasn't known then.

Well, it could be that to see a weave you actually have to have visual contact with it.  Since the weave was inside the box itself, Siuan could have had it tied off with no part of it outside the box so the box would block anyone from seeing it.  You can't sense weaves themselves, only the one power being actively channeled. 

[mb]

I recall from somewhere (do not remember where) that Shaidar Haran saw the weaves and instructed Elza how to unravel them.

[Orderofolde]

Just another tidbit gleaned from LOC regarding sa'angreal. From Messana's POV, when all the forsaken are gathered just after Demandred's arrival she reflects on all known caches of angreal and the like. She thinks that Demandred's would have had his Sa'angreal sooner from the great holding of Tear (rather than Sakarnen) were it not for the wards against men and women. It seems Rand missed a Sa'angreal among the junk for men, in the great hold and not referring to Calandor. It must be something she could see without setting foot into the storerooms and recognized from before the sealing of the bore. Likely one of the mass produced items both sides made and used.

[Orderofolde]

She refers to the nasty wards used as being of a kind to hold her should she set foot within.

[DemandredFO]

I thought she was refering to Callandor

[Orderofolde]

The Dragon already had Callandor by that time and left some nasty wards behind on the holding itself (the storerooms where the doorframe ter'angreal were kept.)  It was the holding itself and not the heart of the stone that was mentioned specifically.  At a passing glance callandor makes sense but she was lamenting on how nice angreal or a sa'angreal would be at the time and how the forsaken would trade just about anything for one but didn't really need any because they were already so strong over the current "so called Aes Sedai."  Anyway, it was just some little tidbit I gleaned.  I mean...we already saw the woman angreal statue in the panarch's palace among the Cuendillar figures that the forsaken and the girls missed but were more focused on the broken access key for the female Chodal Kal that was there and the domination band.  

[DemandredFO]

And doman had an angreal for men that he couldn't use and the Seanchan probably have it now.

[mb]

I take the Seanchan took only the Seal he had.  If they took more from his ship, I take they would have let him know that they had those; like they did with the Seal.

it seems that the Seal was the only thing in/on his ship that they had interest in.

[wotfan4472]

And the only reason is because of their corrupted prophecies. Terrible to think what would happen if they had been in control of those.

[Orderofolde]

Of course it now occurs to me that Messana would be able to search most of the great holding while in TAR, since I don't think wardings apart from Callandor's exist in the world of dreams so that is likely how she knows.

 

And that statue Doman had that feels warm when some men hold it certainly sounds like an Angreal or a Sa'angreal. I completely forgot about it.

[Orderofolde]

And the only reason is because of their corrupted prophecies. Terrible to think what would happen if they had been in control of those.

Does anyone know if all the prophesies will be in the encyclopedia?  I'd really like to know the shadow's prophesies, especially how Perrin was supposed to die but did not.

[mb]

I recall somewhere telling that the Karatheon Cycle alone would take many books; do not remember exact words or where.

 

the end of Towers of Midnight has the full version of the particular Dark Prophecy.  and each phrase could have a number of different interpretations.

There was at least on thread on this forum that talked about that prophecy.  If the thread still exists, this site's search function could find it.

 

 

It seems to me that the Seanchan's interest in the Seal stemmed from the lord's cuendillar collection; not prophecy.

I do not recall any group's prophecies mentioning the Seals; or even cuendillar.

Also, other groups besides the Seanchan were also interested in the Seals (and cuendillar).

[Sabio]

My guess is the shadow prophecy was simply misunderstood about Perrin.  An I still have no idea what the towers of midnight had to do with anything. 

[Orderofolde]

My guess is the shadow prophecy was simply misunderstood about Perrin.  An I still have no idea what the towers of midnight had to do with anything. 

I guess.  If you look at it another way all the prophesies fulfilled throught he series rarely were as cut and dry like Rand thought when he began using them as a checklist.  Graendal probably misunderstood.  After all, Perrin did fall during the battle of the Two Rivers...from his horse.  "Fall" she probably thought meant his demise.  Lol.

[Sabio]

I also thought it could mean Perrin finally gave up his I am a blacksmith and finally accepted being a leader.  So in a way the blacksmith did fall.