[Basic] Christmas Mentors & Maffia

[Tommyrod]

 

 

He's done that a couple times this game.

Could be we all have a really bad read on him and he's scum.

But considering that would make pretty much all of us dead wrong in our reads and that it is an amateurish move to nudge a speed lynch I think it's more likely he's just bored or impatient.

 

 

Nail on the head.

 

 

I find myself going back and forth though.  Last time I thought he was town, he was scum.  And when I think he's scum, he's town lol.  It's annoying.  

 

Hoof just always seems scummy to me.  Hope that doesn't sound like an insult Hoofie.  

 

Today, if I get a chance, I want to go back through and look at Peace and Tommy's posts.  If you'd like, I can post ISOs of them.  Just be aware it will be a ton (esp. peace's) because there has been a lot of talking by both.

Sounds good. Can you still talk to Leelou? If so, ask her what she thinks and if she has any insight into who would have killed her.

[csarmi]

Leelou has left the party. She may not talk anymore.

[csarmi]

Clarification. She was only allowed to talk for a little while after she's gone. No discussion is allowed about this.

[_CLOUD]

I'm just bored and a little impatient, but it isn't fair of me to ask you guys to rush through this if you aren't sure about your reads yet and still need more time to hunt. I myself would be interested in reading your case on Peace, Key.

[_CLOUD]

Tom, what do you think about Via?

[Blackhoof]

 

 

VoteCount Day01#17

01 - Peace: -> Elf -> Golden
02 - Cloud: -> Elf -> Turin -> Hoof -> Turin -> Nolder -> NULL -> Krak -> Golden
03 - Krak: -> Cloud -> Hoof -> NULL
04 - GoldenEyes: -> Elf -> Via -> NULL -> Nolder
05 - TommyRod: -> Peace -> Turin -> Hoof -> NULL -> Nolder -> Hally -> Golden
06 - Leelou: -> Nolder -> Hally -> Nolder -> Golden
07 - Theodora: -> Golden
08 - Elffern: -> Peace -> NULL -> Nolder -> Golden
09 - Hally: -> Golden -> Nolder -> NULL -> Krak
10 - BFG: -> Golden -> NULL -> Nolder
11 - Via: -> Golden
12 - Nolder: -> Hally -> NULL -> Theo
13 - BlackHoof: -> Peace -> Nolder
14 - Turin: -> Tommy -> NULL -> Krak -> Golden

Golden - 8 - Peace, Thea, Via, Turin, Tommy, Leelou, Cloud, Elf
Nolder - 3 - BFG, Hoof, Golden
Krak - 1 - Hally
Theo - 1 - Nolder

Not voting: Krak
8 to lynch.
Deadline: 2013-12-29, 20:00 GMT - this is final, no extension will be given
Countdown: http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20131229T21&p0=50&msg=ChristmasMM-D1

That's a lynch. Scene incoming.

 

 

That's a lynch!

 

Day 2 Final Count

 

Krak (1) - Elf
Hally (7) - Tommy, Hoof, Peace, Krak, Key, Leelou, Cloud
Peace (1) - Nolder
Elf (1) - Hally

Not voting: BFG, Via

 

To  answer Tommy's first question.  Hoof is the answer. 

 

Not on Goldens lynch.  Was on Hally's lynch.  Has been opportunistic all game. 

 

 

Nolder was pretty scummy at the time. BG was also on Nolder's train at the time. So?

Tommy was also on Hallia's lynch, as were you and other townies, bad argument.

 

Yeah, being on Nolder instead of Golden doesn't look too hot in retrospect; nor does following me quickly onto Hallia; mafia would know Hallia was town, easy lynch. Bah. Going back to my earliest notes, which I think will provide the best detail now that several alignments are known. Let's peruse:

 

 

Weak opening in #8 and #11. I'm not a fan of the cthulu jokey stuff. Post #51 just reeks of bullpoop trying-too-hard-to-be-harmless stuff. He outright ignores any attempts at discussing the game so far. He's still spammy in #85, but what pings me about this is his comment "normally you would be on the money" regarding him being scummy. Who the hell writes a comment like this? It's too self conscious. Votes Hallia right off the bat in D1 #92 for literally no reason. Really stupid. But what's stupider is how this reinforces the spam-party that Theo, Hoof, and Hally are having now. I'm finding it to be a little too... comfy. More spam in #102. The spam is pinging me harder now. 

 

Disappears until #281 and opens with suspicion on Cloud for back-flipping on his scum read on Elf... even though that argument took up a third of the thread and was very organic. This looks like a lousy excuse to keep suspicion on Cloud. Then in that same post, defends Elf by attacking Goldeneye's vote. Well, which is it? I haven't seen Hoof defend Elf before this, so it seems like a good way to put suspicion on just about everyone involved. As he continues to do when he FOS on Peace and then votes for him. So Hoof basically appears, put suspicion on everyone involved, and then leaves. Haha, wtf? 

 

And then when I make that post about low-posters being suspect... he reappears to defend himself and put suspicion on Dan. I *hate* that because Dan has zero posts, so he can't be anything but null at this point. Scum love to push mislynches onto inactives because they're easy targets. Big ping. Says one of Cloud or Peace are mafia... well no poop, you're voting for Peace? Why say "one of?" 

 

---

 

Blackhoof finally starts posting in a meaningful way in #383. He’s got town reads on Tom, Elf, and thinks one of Cloud or Peace is scum. Okay. Another MQ post in #407 that thinks Peace is scummy. Seemingly continues to ignore how Cloud achieved satisfaction with Elf’s defense and uses Cloud’s questioning of Elf as “tunneling” justification to keep Cloud a suspect, but the logic behind that just isn’t there. Pingworthy. Calls out Nolder again for mentioning Krak as a scum read… this would be okay if multiple people hadn’t already done so. Feels like a bit of a followy post overall, not producing new content, and ignoring events that have already transpired within the game. This could bring Hoof back into scum territory.

 

Biggest points against Hoof from early game:
-Spammy opening, possibly a buddying attempt
-Voted Hallia D1 for no reason
-Snipes Cloud for changing his mind about Elf (who we know isn't a mason), but ignores the reasoning for why Cloud changed tact
-The way he attacked Golden for voting Elf is weird... considering he just got mad at Cloud for NOT attacking Elf, and Golden was scum, this could be huge
-Despite being mad at Golden and Cloud he votes for Peace at the time
-Pushes suspicion onto a player with 0 posts

-He later continues ignoring the way Cloud and Elf achieved resolution

-Makes a me-too "hey Nolder why did you mention Krak" comment that had been made repeatedly by others at that point

-Voted Nolder over Golden D1, then followed onto Hallia immediately D2

 

So we've got a history of opportunistic attacking here, an odd interaction with Golden, and reasoning that can't be followed. 

 

From what I understand of the current game:
-Continues opportunistic lynching
-Continues to have difficult to follow reads

 

Sounds like a good way to start the day to me. If there's been some substantial data in the last 3-4 days that helps him, let's hear about it, because this certainly looks bad.
 

##Vote Hoof

 

mostly fair points, but you noted all this ages ago and then settled on me as null/town. why suddenly changing to be scummy?

 

We don't have to wait before the deadline hits to decide on a lynch you know.

 

wait up, no need to rush.

 

 

 

 

Hoof just always seems scummy to me.  Hope that doesn't sound like an insult Hoofie.  

 

no offense taken ahaha

[keyholder21]

omg. Peace has 99 quotes this game.

[keyholder21]

Tom, what do you think about Via?

Via is still your strongest scum read?

[_CLOUD]

Krak > Via > Peace > Hoof.

 

I'm just interested in his opinion about Via, like I'm interested in yours regarding Peace because you are both town in my eyes.

[keyholder21]

omg. Peace has 99 quotes this game.

The List says 101. I know I didn't quote the 'yo', but I am NOT trolling back through looking for the other one I missed. I'm sorry I missed one.

 

 

 

Frak. Boss is calling. I'll have the quotes for you when I get free again.

[Elaevia]

He's done that a couple times this game.

Could be we all have a really bad read on him and he's scum.

But considering that would make pretty much all of us dead wrong in our reads and that it is an amateurish move to nudge a speed lynch I think it's more likely he's just bored or impatient.

 

and is consistant with earlier on in the game

[Elaevia]

blrgh, posted too soon

 

cloud is being consistent with earlier on in the game when he posted about a deadline: from what I recall it was right at the beginning of a day, when there was some discussion going on.I haven't checked the deatails to be honest (on phone) but it has the same feel to me: and consistent views about this sort of thing make me lean 'town'

[Tommyrod]

Tom, what do you think about Via?

 

 

I had Hallia and Via linked together when I made the case for Hallia being scum. I've only skimmed Via's recent posts and her reasoning seems much more transparent than it was earlier in the game. I will have to re-read the entire game to see the trend, something I haven't had time to do yet. If you have something either for or against her please link me to it so I can be made aware.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

VoteCount Day01#17

 

 

01 - Peace: -> Elf -> Golden

02 - Cloud: -> Elf -> Turin -> Hoof -> Turin -> Nolder -> NULL -> Krak -> Golden

03 - Krak: -> Cloud -> Hoof -> NULL

04 - GoldenEyes: -> Elf -> Via -> NULL -> Nolder

05 - TommyRod: -> Peace -> Turin -> Hoof -> NULL -> Nolder -> Hally -> Golden

06 - Leelou: -> Nolder -> Hally -> Nolder -> Golden

07 - Theodora: -> Golden

08 - Elffern: -> Peace -> NULL -> Nolder -> Golden

09 - Hally: -> Golden -> Nolder -> NULL -> Krak

10 - BFG: -> Golden -> NULL -> Nolder

11 - Via: -> Golden

12 - Nolder: -> Hally -> NULL -> Theo

13 - BlackHoof: -> Peace -> Nolder

14 - Turin: -> Tommy -> NULL -> Krak -> Golden

 

 

Golden - 8 - Peace, Thea, Via, Turin, Tommy, Leelou, Cloud, Elf

Nolder - 3 - BFG, Hoof, Golden

Krak - 1 - Hally

Theo - 1 - Nolder

Not voting: Krak

8 to lynch.

Deadline: 2013-12-29, 20:00 GMT - this is final, no extension will be given

Countdown: http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20131229T21&p0=50&msg=ChristmasMM-D1

That's a lynch. Scene incoming.

 

 

 

That's a lynch!

 

Day 2 Final Count

 

Krak (1) - ElfHally (7) - Tommy, Hoof, Peace, Krak, Key, Leelou, Cloud

Peace (1) - Nolder

Elf (1) - Hally

Not voting: BFG, Via

 

 

To  answer Tommy's first question.  Hoof is the answer. 

 

Not on Goldens lynch.  Was on Hally's lynch.  Has been opportunistic all game.

 

Nolder was pretty scummy at the time. BG was also on Nolder's train at the time. So?

Tommy was also on Hallia's lynch, as were you and other townies, bad argument.

 

Yeah, being on Nolder instead of Golden doesn't look too hot in retrospect; nor does following me quickly onto Hallia; mafia would know Hallia was town, easy lynch. Bah. Going back to my earliest notes, which I think will provide the best detail now that several alignments are known. Let's peruse:

 

 

Weak opening in #8 and #11. I'm not a fan of the cthulu jokey stuff. Post #51 just reeks of bullpoop trying-too-hard-to-be-harmless stuff. He outright ignores any attempts at discussing the game so far. He's still spammy in #85, but what pings me about this is his comment "normally you would be on the money" regarding him being scummy. Who the hell writes a comment like this? It's too self conscious. Votes Hallia right off the bat in D1 #92 for literally no reason. Really stupid. But what's stupider is how this reinforces the spam-party that Theo, Hoof, and Hally are having now. I'm finding it to be a little too... comfy. More spam in #102. The spam is pinging me harder now. 

 

Disappears until #281 and opens with suspicion on Cloud for back-flipping on his scum read on Elf... even though that argument took up a third of the thread and was very organic. This looks like a lousy excuse to keep suspicion on Cloud. Then in that same post, defends Elf by attacking Goldeneye's vote. Well, which is it? I haven't seen Hoof defend Elf before this, so it seems like a good way to put suspicion on just about everyone involved. As he continues to do when he FOS on Peace and then votes for him. So Hoof basically appears, put suspicion on everyone involved, and then leaves. Haha, wtf? 

 

And then when I make that post about low-posters being suspect... he reappears to defend himself and put suspicion on Dan. I *hate* that because Dan has zero posts, so he can't be anything but null at this point. Scum love to push mislynches onto inactives because they're easy targets. Big ping. Says one of Cloud or Peace are mafia... well no poop, you're voting for Peace? Why say "one of?" 

 

---

 

Blackhoof finally starts posting in a meaningful way in #383. He’s got town reads on Tom, Elf, and thinks one of Cloud or Peace is scum. Okay. Another MQ post in #407 that thinks Peace is scummy. Seemingly continues to ignore how Cloud achieved satisfaction with Elf’s defense and uses Cloud’s questioning of Elf as “tunneling” justification to keep Cloud a suspect, but the logic behind that just isn’t there. Pingworthy. Calls out Nolder again for mentioning Krak as a scum read… this would be okay if multiple people hadn’t already done so. Feels like a bit of a followy post overall, not producing new content, and ignoring events that have already transpired within the game. This could bring Hoof back into scum territory.

 

 

Biggest points against Hoof from early game:

-Spammy opening, possibly a buddying attempt

-Voted Hallia D1 for no reason

-Snipes Cloud for changing his mind about Elf (who we know isn't a mason), but ignores the reasoning for why Cloud changed tact

-The way he attacked Golden for voting Elf is weird... considering he just got mad at Cloud for NOT attacking Elf, and Golden was scum, this could be huge

-Despite being mad at Golden and Cloud he votes for Peace at the time

-Pushes suspicion onto a player with 0 posts

-He later continues ignoring the way Cloud and Elf achieved resolution

-Makes a me-too "hey Nolder why did you mention Krak" comment that had been made repeatedly by others at that point

-Voted Nolder over Golden D1, then followed onto Hallia immediately D2

 

So we've got a history of opportunistic attacking here, an odd interaction with Golden, and reasoning that can't be followed. 

 

From what I understand of the current game:

-Continues opportunistic lynching

-Continues to have difficult to follow reads

 

Sounds like a good way to start the day to me. If there's been some substantial data in the last 3-4 days that helps him, let's hear about it, because this certainly looks bad.

 

##Vote Hoof

 

 

mostly fair points, but you noted all this ages ago and then settled on me as null/town. why suddenly changing to be scummy?

 

 

We don't have to wait before the deadline hits to decide on a lynch you know.

 

 

wait up, no need to rush.

 

 

 

Hoof just always seems scummy to me.  Hope that doesn't sound like an insult Hoofie.

 

 

no offense taken ahaha

A mixture of running out of suspects, a trend of you to not having grown more town like in the time since I wrote that summary (if this is blatantly incorrect someone should correct it), and a desire to keep things simple and use D1 pre-lynch Golden interactions as clues because he should not have had reason to believe he would get lynched on D1, so he should have made a couple mistakes or had weird interactions. We saw him saying "if Nolder flips town I'll come after you Tom" which with Nolder's reveal makes me feel pretty peachy about Nolder being town; whereas your strange early interaction with Golden and lack of a vote for him D1 is pretty glaring, on top of the fresh comments from recent play that others have made (which I admittedly haven't put research into myself). But the sum total of this information is "good scum suspect", especially as we run low on possibilities.

[Krakalakachkn]

Krak, can you explain your voting pattern statement in regards to me?

 

First on Golden, prime on Hallia.  No foolproof tell or anything, just wanted to note it.  But Cloud's voting record is also pretty suspect with that hammer on Hallia and second to last on Golden.

 

 

 

Krak I've highlighted Turins reads that were undecided, why did you  focus on Goldens in particular?

 

 

Current thoughts on the List of Players:

• 01 - Peace:  The refusal to directly state his reasons for voting elf was a bit weird but it was fairly obvious to me that he was saying that he agreed with Cloud's case against her. The snark fest with Tommy is fiesty peace. Slight town lean
• 02 - Cloud (mentored by Darthe): Severe buddying to Tommy. ("yes sir"? ) as well as chainsaw defense with regards to elf's case against Tommy. He has been quite eager to get thru D1 it appears. This is usually more evident in mafia members that have good roles they want to utilize. The "i'm excited for this game" line doesn't fly for me. When you made the comment "when are we going to lynch Turin or Hoof" there wasn't much hoofie discussion yet. I was wondering why you picked him to put in there with me. You were following Tommy onto me so that I get but why hoofie at that point? or was Darthe pulling your strings there like with the Leelou is town thing? Mafia #2
• 03 - Krak (mentored by Verb) not much here yet to me. seemed to be primarily peanut gallery type posts. Undecided.
• 04 - GoldenEyes (mentored by Despothera) his vote on elf came across as a bad Despo impersonation. Like he wanted to sound like Depso but didn't want to put in the effort to multi quote. Just looks like lazy play so far. undecided tho.
• 05 - TommyRod: Mafia #1. attempting to lead the town.  advocated the "look at inactives" it works every time. Only the SithMafia deal in absolutes. A few other things.  Is Cloud more pro-town than you are? You are constantly defending each other and working together too much.
• 06 - Leelou (mentored by Wombat) Are you still voting Nolder? You accused me of parking my vote on Tommy but you put your vote on Nolder before he even checked in. maybe hypocrisy is the new black. And if I am tunneling and trying to get him voted out for whatever reason my vote isn't parked. Added to the Tommy defender team. The little shot Night 0 could easily be a distance ploy. If Tommy is mafia like I think then she could very well be also. mafia lean.
• 07 - Theodora (mentored by Key) Only thing I recall is her early call out of Hoof for claiming Hoof... Were you serious about that? I wasn't sure if it was sarcasm or not... Undecided
• 08 - Elffern (mentored by Dap) The interaction with Tommy early was interesting. I think she was trying to say that She found Tommy pushing for everyone to play his game off. The not voting until later in the day especially on D1 is classic Dap from about 9 months ago. That she has adopted it is reasonable I guess since she has been away for a while. town lean  
• 09 - Hally (mentored by Yates) More posting please ( yates must be turning over in his grim reaper hut) Incomplete. 
• 10 - BFG - Innocent Child -Back away form the alcohol and post more please. you are the only person we know is trying to help town win so all input and thoughts are valuable
• 11 - dansyc (mentored by Kaylee) ABSENT Waiting for replacement
• 12 - Nolder: didn't like his advice to BFG. Also didn't like that he called cloud out for actively trying to get a lynch on D1. There is no such thing as pressuring without the intent to lynch. it is like saying that you are voting someone to pressure them. If the votee doesn't think that you are serious then they will just ignore your vote. Also has been fairly reasonable which is usually a sign of mafia Nolder. slight edge to mafia lean. 
• 13 - BlackHoof: was behaving with just the one silly Blackhoof post which caught Thea's attention. Leaning town still at present
• 14 - Turin (advised by Pray) Town. but only I know that at present.

 

Mafia: Tommy, Cloud, maybe nolder, maybe Leelou. 

 

Town: BFG, Turin. 

 

. 23 hour day at present. Good  Night now

 

This post is crap.

 

 

A) Feels need to include himself in reads, like we believe that he's town based on his own insistence.  I love that last part, "but I only know that at present."  That suggests two things: 1) He isn't sure he's town, and 2) He doesn't believe BFG is town.  

B) Weak read on Golden

C) Has Cloud as scum #2, and yet hates on Nolder for "calling cloud out for actively trying to get a lynch on D1" in the same post.

D) There is completely such a thing as "pressuring without the intent to lynch."  I've done it so many times that myself alone makes you as incorrect as Nixon (or whoever) when he declared Marijuana a gateway drug.  To suggest otherwise is naive at best.

 

 

 

It was his only read that didn't have anything tangible.  It was literally just a meta-meta read on Despo and was completely worthless.

 

Well that was a good response from via, she certainly is analysing. It is a start.

 

Since elf is town, that leaves cloud, tommy, via, krak and peace.

Two of them must be mafia.

 

Out of all, I think thst I will go for krak

##vote krak

 

After you had me back at null?  This smacks of scum.

 

Well I know what side that puts me on.

 

##Vote Krak

 

 

That was quite possibly the worst move you could have made.  Seriously the worst move (besides voting BFG).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nolder & BFG, what do you guys think of this angle? Do you think it's valid, or should I drop it?

I still think Tommy, Krak, or Hoof is scum. In my experience when you're scum and giving reads you generally name at least one of your scumbuddies as scum.

Krak is mafia. Tommy is town. Hoof can still go either way. Quite simple actually :P

 

 

##Vote Krak

I didn't ask you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Elf's D1 posts come accross as town to me - she hasn't posted to the same amount since (dropping off of activity would usually draw my attention a bit) but we know why that was, so that turns into a null - so going with a town read on elf.

Knowing elf was town and this came before the MK, makes me shift Via back toward town. So I guess I'm at null to a little town on her. IMO, Elf would be an easy vote for mafia. She was gone awhile and BFG, who is known as town, was already voting her.

You should look at the reasoning Via uses to declare Effie town.

 

If you look hard enough you will notice that she doesn't mention any. She only says that she has started posting less which doesn't say anything about her allignment.

 

How can you find this town behavior?

If I look hard enough? I can read, thanks.

 

I already explained why I thought Via looked town due to that. Also, you are misrepping Via. Did you actually read what she said? She did give a reason and it wasn't due to elf's drop in activity.

 

Elaboration that you asked for, however, would be welcome from her.

 

 

 

We don't have to wait before the deadline hits to decide on a lynch you know.

 

 

Tom, what do you think about Via?

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm fine with either a Cloud of Hoof lynch.  Pretty sure both are scum, rated in that order.  What has Cloud really done this game other than harp on me and faux scum hunt?  Sure he was on Golden's lynch, but I'm not clearing him for that.  Looks like he's getting giddy ever since BFG posted his math read and Elf was modkilled.

 

 

 

I'm fine with going for Hoof today though.  ##Vote Hoof.

[keyholder21]

Peace posts, without commentary.

 

Part 1 -

 

 

[says “yo” for his beginning post. Edited out to save room for more quotes.]

 

##vote elf

 

[edited out peace’s vote for elf (see above) to save quote room.]

So someone said you start every game with "yo" which means you're aware of your own meta which means you're probably not a very adept player (no offense intended) since you have a gimmick to cover yourself. Why are you me-too-ing Cloud's vote without any prior commentary or justification? If anyone has the right to be second in line here, it's me. Pls explain

Probably because I'm not a very adept player. Really, why are you asking questions you've already answered for yourself?

 

 

[edited out the other quotes here to save quote limits. The posts that were here are the ones from peace and Tommy literally right above here.]

 

Uh... that's the cue for you to explain your vote. Go on. We won't bite!

Why is it necessary to regurgitate Cloud's reasons?

 

[says ‘oh gawd’ to Cloud’s “leelou is town” statement. Edited for quote limits.]

 

 

If you guys had a gun to your head and had to choose would you say this is more town peace or scum peace

 

The snarkiness is a bit much

Your false bravado is overly much. It's a crutch for player with weak ego's.

 

How's your hold'em game? You play online?

 

 

Oh and yeah, I don't think analysing first posts on day one is helpful except to give scum reads on easy lynchs

Actually, it's the most town thing you can do. It put you out there to be read. Tommy gives me strong town vibes just for that one action. He may be the new guy coming in here insulting people before anyone knows him...and has no clues on how to behave in a social setting when you are the new guy but he is town so far.

 

 

 

 

Personal attacks after I put doubt on you isn't very Christmaslike :(

It's not very town like either

##Vote Peaceinthemiddleeast

I wouldn't be surprised if we've hit scum already

-Self conscious (evidenced by OP gimmick)

-Sheep voting with no discussion, expecting the wagon to take off

-Overly defensive and gets into personal attacks on Day 1 (lol)

Definitely the most suspicious play so far

Follow me to the promised land

I only agree with you about his touchy attitude in this game, but the rest is null. Do something useful and follow me on Elf instead.

 

I wouldn't say it's null. Maybe the OP thing but I'll even add another point: he wanted to bring the conversation off topic to diffuse my momentum on him (asking about my hold'em game? Dafuq?)

 

You are the one who has brought up the twoplustwo forums. I

 

[posts “CSarmi try again…lol” in response to CS’s vote count.]

 

 

## vote peace you still haven't explained why you voted for me? I don't min you voting for me, so much as not giving a reason.

 

Btw, why nolder leelou?

then you need to re-read.

 

I take what is said in game as game play. Doesn't mean I can't do the same Nolder. You are way too immature to stand on any high horse.

 

Strong scum vibe from Nolder for his trying to tell people how to play stance. Major scum tell.

 

 

[keyholder21]

Peace posts, without commentary.

 

Part 2-

 

 

 

 

Peace starts every game with yo regardless of alignment

Dunno if you've ever been confirmed innocent before but FYI it's better to not defend people without at least seeing their reactions first.

Especially this early in the game. People will be looking to you for straight answers to help them sort out their own thoughts and you don't want to accidentally defend scum when their reaction could have proved useful if they'd been on the spot without any support.

 

Normally, you are right. But in this instance you are wrong. This is common knowledge to everyone but Tommy. And people refer to it in many games. Plus, BFG isn't a new player who needs you to instruct on how to play.

 

 

I don't actually find him especially scummy right now, and I want to see what he says. And I am aware there are other paths my line of reasoning could take, but it seems best to go down the worst possible case first.

This is the most reasonable approach to Day 1.

 

Why?

 

 

 

 

 

I don't actually find him especially scummy right now, and I want to see what he says. And I am aware there are other paths my line of reasoning could take, but it seems best to go down the worst possible case first.

In one of your first posts you mentioned that Tom's eagerness is the only thing that stood out to you, and now you call him out for trying to get a lynch going by using very thin reasoning and at the same time trying to set up an escape if his attempt would fail. I again disagree with your explanation regarding his actions so far, but it's certainly interesting that you are now trying to backpaddle away from your initial read on him by saying that you want to wait for him to talk more. You haven't stated your suspicion on anyone else and you even admit that it's best to go with the worst possible case first, but you still aren't willing to vote for him at this stage of the game.

 

##vote Elf

 

Way way too eager.

 

Explain why it is too eager?

 

 

 

I'm not protecting you.

Yeah, you kind of were.

 

Or, he was pointing out an issue and the defense was secondary. This is actually good stuff because it can be crossed referenced later in the game. Even if he were defending..why discourage the behavior?

 

 

 

I'm not protecting you.

Got it, didn't see your vote until after I posted. Thought you were buddying me a little. No worries.

 

Let's see what he has to say.

 

That's the impression I got.

 

Or how you wish to spin it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

##vote elf

So someone said you start every game with "yo" which means you're aware of your own meta which means you're probably not a very adept player (no offense intended) since you have a gimmick to cover yourself. Why are you me-too-ing Cloud's vote without any prior commentary or justification? If anyone has the right to be second in line here, it's me. Pls explain

 

Probably because I'm not a very adept player. Really, why are you asking questions you've already answered for yourself?

 

Uh... that's the cue for you to explain your vote. Go on. We won't bite!

 

Why is it necessary to regurgitate Cloud's reasons?

 

Because if you say nothing at all you're not held accountable.

You can just make up any BS later. If you just repeat someone else's reasoning it can be analyzed and called bad or good.

It's about broadcasting your towniness to other players, which so far you've failed to do.

 

It's not "all about broadcasting towniness" although that is a good way to start. It's also all about causing people to react in ways that give clues to their alignment. Again, you are playing the "I'm gonna teach the town how to play card and look townee myself for doing it.

 

 

 

Why is it necessary to regurgitate Cloud's reasons?

Am I supposed to read your mind as to why you randomly voted without reasoning?

 

All: is this normal behavior from peacesells?

 

Yes. He tends to be very stubborn as town and has caused some of the worst instances of town on town arguing I've seen in recent memory.

 

Recent memory? We've played 1 game together in the past 8 month.

 

 

 

If you guys had a gun to your head and had to choose would you say this is more town peace or scum peace

 

The snarkiness is a bit much

Your false bravado is overly much. It's a crutch for player with weak ego's.

 

How's your hold'em game? You play online?

 

1. I've seen bravado, false or otherwise serve some players very well.

 

Meh..it's a fluff post crutch and although "some" players who use the tactic are good they are far and few between. Mostly, someone comes in with an engaging personality does it, and others follow suit cause they think it is fun. To me it's fluff. Can be funny in moderation...but lately it's like tattoos. No longer cool cause everyone does it...including your grandparents.

 

 

 

 

Oh and yeah, I don't think analysing first posts on day one is helpful except to give scum reads on easy lynchs

Actually, it's the most town thing you can do. It put you out there to be read. Tommy gives me strong town vibes just for that one action. He may be the new guy coming in here insulting people before anyone knows him...and has no clues on how to behave in a social setting when you are the new guy but he is town so far.

 

It's interesting that you're talking about insults when in the past you've been one of the most outspoken people about gameplay being gameplay and nothing else.

 

So how does my view on gameplay mean I can't address insults? Why are you bringing up things that don't matter? What purpose does this serve in the game?

 

Nolder, you are just painting a picture right now that has nothing to do with game play here.

 

Here is what I see you angle as so far:

 

Instructing on townee play to look town yourself.

Instigating and issue with me while introducing that I tend to have a lot of town on town violence so that when I flip town you look town.

Making comments about how Cloud looks like scum while not giving the reasons. (Didn't you accuse me of this.) The only difference is I didn't try and make it look like I was giving reasons when I wasn't. Saying "this is scummy" is not an explanation.

 

 

 

[peacesells]

commentary would be more interesting.

[keyholder21]

Peace posts, without commentary.

 

Part 3-

 

 

 

 

If you're town you can prove it to me by going after actual scum

Now that is an interesting statement.

 

 

you do understand the conundrum there if Turin is town, right?

 

 

If you're town you can prove it to me by going after actual scum

Now that is an interesting statement.

 

 

 

you do understand the conundrum there if Turin is town, right?

Explain

 

You are implying that if he doesn't find scum then he is scum. If he is town, he is uninformed. Conundrum. Catch22. Heading down a 1 way dead end street.

 

 

We're voting for each other but what he's said makes sense if I turn my brain 25 degrees. So maybe he thinks he's right and I think I'm right and this is some hot town on town action. I'll let him prove his alignment to me through scumhunting but as it stands it looks like he's tunneling on me for some reason... which I do not qualify as scumhunting. QED.

 

If I'm wrong on both of ya then it's no big deal -- I'll adjust after a re-read. Every interaction is a useful interaction as far as solving the game goes. Even if I am way off, the way people respond to it will be telling later in the game

I don't disagree with anything you say here. And I think his vote on you has a lot of OMGUS influencing it. But your comments in this quote do not explain that statement you made.

 

You've basically pigeon holed him into only finding scum or else he is scum. If he is town, then he is uninformed and may lead a town lynch. Way did you make a statement that only gives one option?

 

If you meant you want to see him scumhunting, then why didn't you just say that?

 

 

 

 

 

We're voting for each other but what he's said makes sense if I turn my brain 25 degrees. So maybe he thinks he's right and I think I'm right and this is some hot town on town action. I'll let him prove his alignment to me through scumhunting but as it stands it looks like he's tunneling on me for some reason... which I do not qualify as scumhunting. QED.

If I'm wrong on both of ya then it's no big deal -- I'll adjust after a re-read. Every interaction is a useful interaction as far as solving the game goes. Even if I am way off, the way people respond to it will be telling later in the game

I don't disagree with anything you say here. And I think his vote on you has a lot of OMGUS influencing it. But your comments in this quote do not explain that statement you made.

 

You've basically pigeon holed him into only finding scum or else he is scum. If he is town, then he is uninformed and may lead a town lynch. Way did you make a statement that only gives one option?

 

If you meant you want to see him scumhunting, then why didn't you just say that?

 

I did say that, lol. You're interpreting it oddly. Chalk this one up to semantics. I use that line often and have never had someone question it like this before.

 

Ok, I'll do that. It's the only thing about your play that had pinged me.

 

 

 

Oh and yeah, I don't think analysing first posts on day one is helpful except to give scum reads on easy lynchs

Actually, it's the most town thing you can do. It put you out there to be read. Tommy gives me strong town vibes just for that one action. He may be the new guy coming in here insulting people before anyone knows him...and has no clues on how to behave in a social setting when you are the new guy but he is town so far.

 

You are contradicting the most "logical" process in the game for establishing town behavior. Giving reads. You discredit Tommy for giving reads. Like I said, I've given you my reason. You chose to ignore it. In my emotional opinion your logic has failed.

 

(I'm really hoping you can see the sarcasm...when it's being obviously pointed out to you.)

 

 

Let's extrapolate a bit more.

 

You FOS Tommy for giving his reads.

 

Nolder states, when building a case on me, that giving reasons/reads is the only acceptable town behavior.

 

You never question Nolder on this?

 

Logically that does not add up.

 

Do you wish to check your logic?

 

Elf and Nolder so far are at the top of my scum list. In case that isn't obvious.

 

We need a few more players though.

 

Merry Christmas everyone.

 

[says 'clarthe...lol'. Edited out to save quote limits.]

 

when I am scum I purposefully do not defend others.

 

 

I also don't like how you're making Elf out to be the center of attention.

As if asking MetaWorld Peace for a reason on voting her is unreasonable.

It's not...but I had answered and she either didn't see it or ignored it.

 

Cloud has taken some strange tangents though in his later casing.

 

What other questions Elfie?

 

And yes...too many not posting yet.

 

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/86578-basic-christmas-mentors-maffia/page-13?do=findComment&comment=3116932

Yes. It's what everyone in the game does. Extrapolate.

 

I said I extrapolated with my original vote. With the given information. Where did I say I did so with later info?

 

 

And anyone who is town shouldn't have to lie

 

I'm not lying but this statement is wrong in many many circumstances. I've lied often as town.

 

##unvote

 

## vote golden eyes

 

 

Reason, that last post was a big pile. I'll explain in the morning when I can get to a computer. Maybe :).

 

 

[keyholder21]

commentary would be more interesting.

 

I'll do commentary at the end. I'm not doing it in the spoiler, because that way everyone can read the quotes and come to their own conclusions.

[keyholder21]

Peace posts, without commentary.

 

Part 4-

 

 

 

 

 

Oh and yeah, I don't think analysing first posts on day one is helpful except to give scum reads on easy lynchs

Actually, it's the most town thing you can do. It put you out there to be read. Tommy gives me strong town vibes just for that one action. He may be the new guy coming in here insulting people before anyone knows him...and has no clues on how to behave in a social setting when you are the new guy but he is town so far.

 

you missed this post. you were accusing tommy of being scummy while he was making a protown move. I may not have laid it out perfectly for you, or you may have not understood..but this was my given reason.

 

Golden...your reaction to my vote on you is to insult me?

 

Also, can you explain what you found to be off about Golden's post?

Yeah..I will once I get settled at work if we aren't crazy busy.

 

 

Tommy, I've never given a scum read on you? Where are you getting this? I questioned 1 statement you made.

 

Ok..but it's funny you call me attacking you when you fired the opening salvo insulting my play with absolutely no experience with me? You may be correct..I may be a crappy player but you had no experience with me to make a judgement like that. Nor any credibility or friendships established here to make such a comment socially acceptable.

 

And then to take exception to me pointing it out...well...seems a bit absurd.

 

 

##vote elffern

 

Because you've posted ad nauseum about why your opinion is bestest and right. I find you overly defensive, frenetic, I disagree with a substantial portion of your logic and you engage in endless whyme fryme. Even if the scum vibe I get from you is wrong, I don't find most of what you say to contribute to actual scumhunting, other than to FOS several people and then submit an OMGUS vote which you lyingly claim is based on gameplay.

Ad nausem bit. - This is a stretch. Elfie may be tunneling me..but she sure isn't acting like her opinion is the best. Many play that way here..but she isn't exhibiting these traits.

 

Logic bit - Doesn't bother explaining why her logic is wrong. Just says it is. Prove it.

 

Even if scum vibe is wrong - Basically giving himself an out if he is somehow wrong and then giving a policy type reason for his vote - unhelpful town is worth killing type meaning.

 

Lyingly - Is that a word. Again, no evidence that she is lying. She may feel exactly the way she is posting. She may be wrong...but that doesn't mean she is lying.

 

 

My biggest issue with Golden is that I played 1 game with him and he was very astute and succinct in that game. Had great reasoning. Great instincts. Very good arguments. He was town. This post compared to that is a big pile of brown fiber. His reasons lack substance.

 

 

 

 

Ok..but it's funny you call me attacking you when you fired the opening salvo insulting my play with absolutely no experience with me? You may be correct..I may be a crappy player but you had no experience with me to make a judgement like that. Nor any credibility or friendships established here to make such a comment socially acceptable.

 

And then to take exception to me pointing it out...well...seems a bit absurd.

I get reactions out of people. Your reaction was overly aggressive; I don't know why you'd be so insulted if I wasn't on to something :P

 

Your action was aggressive...why not expect the same in return? So..are you saying you were laying a trap?

 

You actually are accusing me of being a bit sensitive...when it looks like you are the one belaboring the point. So, are you gonna stay on this topic as part of your case or are you going to actually scumhunt?

 

 

[asks Tommy to edit his posts.]

 

You can also have the big ego slot. There are plenty of ego competitors around here...I'm not one of them.

 

 

So when are we lynching Hoof and Turin?

 

 

And Peace you were more aggressive in this game then I'm used to seeing from you, and mafia does tend to be more aggressive than town.

If you believe that is the case. Vote me.

 

 

*Aggressive as in responding with an aggressive tone, not aggressive playstyle.

Maybe I just don't like Tommy.

 

 

No..it's not a appeal to emotion. You are misinterpreting.

 

I don't care if I get lynched. I never do if I can be useful for information gathering.

 

My point to him was, instead of just floating the idea out there, back it up with a vote. Otherwise it comes across as seeing who else will grab on.

 

 

If he feels I am scum, then he needs to vote me.

 

 

I don't care if I get lynched.

You should.

 

If it's useless yes. But if it sets up the game..then getting lynched can be a good thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't care if I get lynched.

You should.

 

If it's useless yes. But if it sets up the game..then getting lynched can be a good thing.

 

You can't help town if you are dead. Any single contribution that you make to your team at the cost of your life hurts them more than it helps them.

 

Probably should take this outside the game but recently I was VT and drew the night call by implying I was the cop thus protecting power roles. That was a useful action.

 

There are many ways to do this. VT, is the most fun role.

 

 

No, I wasn't claiming.

 

I am not on a mason team with Turin.

 

 

[keyholder21]

Peace posts, without commentary.

 

Part 5-

 

 

 

 

I am not on a mason team with Turin.

So how do you interpret Turin defending you and then self-consciously mentioning how he's not defending you? Lol

 

I can't account for his posts. But my initial reaction thought it was strange but he said 1 thing that gave me a town vibe. Unless he chooses to be more clear about it, I'm not gonna point to it though.

 

Didnt you accuse Turin of stating I was town previously? Is that not "town hunting?"

 

The tl;dr is that I'm suspicious of players whose reads I can't reasonably guess before they suddenly come out. If there's no organic development of thought process in-thread, that's a good mafia suspect.

 

I'll respond more fully when I'm not at work, but nitpicking my phrasing is getting to be a tired and frankly lazy form of debate.

 

Happy hunting.

Is this your go to move?

 

 

this isn't debate club.

 

Theo. .I don't get your vote in goldeneyes. You state im clearly scum yet you are voting goldeneyes. I'm voting goldeneyes already. How does that make sense?

 

I like the vote but I don't like your method at all.

 

Guys. The game isn't about debate. It's about manipulation. Many here refuse to debate yet are still effective.

 

 

 

Guys. The game isn't about debate. It's about manipulation. Many here refuse to debate yet are still effective.

Like Turin?

 

Maybe. He's been more of a policeman this game than a scum hunter.

 

 

I didn't say elf was clearly scum. And that stuff was early in the day. Golden going into hiding only makes me more suspicious.

 

On Turin. I don't think it is unusual for him to attack you as you have a very abrasive and cocky personality. I felt the urge to go full bore on you as well. Difference is I've gotten past it.

 

And I'm always suspicious of buddying. But I'm suspicious of many things day 1.

 

I think nolder was more blatant about it. Some could say I'm buddying you since I've repeatedly given town reads in you.

 

Sick in bed and using my phone. Sorry if this comes out disjointed.

 

Nolders refusal to vote one of the larger trains is suspicious.

 

Nolder, can you explain why you were trying to start a brand new train just before the deadline?

 

 

for the record I think it's fine for players to change their opinion, that in itself I don't find scummy at all.

 

I suppose to me using 'vindicated' would be more applicable if you had been actively pushing for his lynch, making cases and rebutals on him, etc. Not just that you found him scummy, were going to hammer and he turned out to be mafia.

 

It seems a bit over the top for that.

I agree with this. I don't think Hallia did anything of note to push the golden lynch, nor were there people condemning her opinions on him so that she would feel vindicated.

 

 

 

##vote elffern

 

Because you've posted ad nauseum about why your opinion is bestest and right. I find you overly defensive, frenetic, I disagree with a substantial portion of your logic and you engage in endless whyme fryme. Even if the scum vibe I get from you is wrong, I don't find most of what you say to contribute to actual scumhunting, other than to FOS several people and then submit an OMGUS vote which you lyingly claim is based on gameplay.

Ad nausem bit. - This is a stretch. Elfie may be tunneling me..but she sure isn't acting like her opinion is the best. Many play that way here..but she isn't exhibiting these traits.

 

Logic bit - Doesn't bother explaining why her logic is wrong. Just says it is. Prove it.

 

Even if scum vibe is wrong - Basically giving himself an out if he is somehow wrong and then giving a policy type reason for his vote - unhelpful town is worth killing type meaning.

 

Lyingly - Is that a word. Again, no evidence that she is lying. She may feel exactly the way she is posting. She may be wrong...but that doesn't mean she is lying.

 

 

My biggest issue with Golden is that I played 1 game with him and he was very astute and succinct in that game. Had great reasoning. Great instincts. Very good arguments. He was town. This post compared to that is a big pile of brown fiber. His reasons lack substance.

 

 

 

##vote nolder

 

His voting actions yesterday were scummy. Looked made to hide any info incase he got lynched. His reasoning did not suffice to me.

Like that post by tommy.

 

Don't forget she tried to take credit for the lunch as well.

 

Ok..finally out of the sick bed and back at work. I'll be able to post more now.

 

A few things on recent stuffage.

 

Nolder introduces set up talk. Not only that he goes into a long explanation on various possibilities and only names me as a possible "3rd party." 2 things wrong with this. Setup talk is a distraction. Classic DM scum move that was perfected in the "GOT" game. 2nd, naming only 1 person as possibility makes it look like he was trying very hard to come up with a way to make someone (me) who others have expressed a town feel for look bad.

 

On Hally, even her most recent post above mine addresses nothing game related. She's posted, but not really taken a stand on anything. More like cheered from the sidelines.

 

Nolder and Hally are my 2 biggest suspects atm. I'm good with either of them dead.

 

##UNVOTE

 

##VOTE HALLY

Nolder, you keep accusing me of not giving reason's. I gave a clear reason for voting Golden. I even quoted for you a page back. You continue to fabricate to make your stories seem more true.

 

Hally never voted Golden.

 

I've played in many games with Hally...probably many more than you. And your representation of her is incorrect. She does not post a lot...but when she does it means something usually. This game...nothing. There hasn't been 1 game related post.

 

Set up talk is distracting and IS a common mafia/scum tactic. Scum hunt and all will work out. If we lynch 4 total scum and the game isn't over...then worry about a survivor. You want to survivor hunt? That is a scum ploy...not town ploy.

 

And as far as you calling me aloof??? I've been laid up in bed with the flu since last Thursday. I've made that clear. Funny you wish to use that logic on me considering your aloofness and lack of participation the first 30 pages of the game.

 

I will vote either Nolder or Hallia today. Which ever train is more likely to develop.

 

Leelou...why are you dealing with this clown? All he is doing is regurgitating his attacks on you. His fake scum hunting is obvious.

 

 

 

##vote elffern

 

Because you've posted ad nauseum about why your opinion is bestest and right. I find you overly defensive, frenetic, I disagree with a substantial portion of your logic and you engage in endless whyme fryme. Even if the scum vibe I get from you is wrong, I don't find most of what you say to contribute to actual scumhunting, other than to FOS several people and then submit an OMGUS vote which you lyingly claim is based on gameplay.

Ad nausem bit. - This is a stretch. Elfie may be tunneling me..but she sure isn't acting like her opinion is the best. Many play that way here..but she isn't exhibiting these traits.

 

Logic bit - Doesn't bother explaining why her logic is wrong. Just says it is. Prove it.

 

Even if scum vibe is wrong - Basically giving himself an out if he is somehow wrong and then giving a policy type reason for his vote - unhelpful town is worth killing type meaning.

 

Lyingly - Is that a word. Again, no evidence that she is lying. She may feel exactly the way she is posting. She may be wrong...but that doesn't mean she is lying.

 

 

My biggest issue with Golden is that I played 1 game with him and he was very astute and succinct in that game. Had great reasoning. Great instincts. Very good arguments. He was town. This post compared to that is a big pile of brown fiber. His reasons lack substance.

 

 

posting for the 3rd time for nolders benefit.

 

 

Krak is really responding badly right now. Taking everything so personally. Does not speak well for his townness.

 

I am feeling better about Nolder

How are you feeling better about Nolder?

 

I'll sum up his game for you so far.

 

Very early pokes his head in to defend me.

 

Disappears.

 

Shows up when getting heat and it looks like he is going to be the days lynch target and gets active all the sudden.

 

During this time he makes many incorrect statements that he later "apologizes" for. "Oh I missed that." Or "I admit I was skimming." (<skimming is scummy btw)

 

Successfully derails his own train. 2 others develop in the mean time. He votes neither of them even though we are close to the deadline. Instead...wants to lynch an inactive who had let everyone know she was sick. At least 1 of the 2 trains was scum. Why wasn't he part of it?

 

Then he basically starts spamming the game thread. Responds in a lot of individual posts, bumping up his post count while making they game more of an obstacle for townees to wade through.

 

Not only does he use that tactic, he tries to steer the game into set up discussion. Further derailing scumhunting.

 

Lurking early

admitted skimming

derailing scumhunting

driving set up discussion

mass posting in spurts to make reading a thread more difficult

misrepresenting what's gone on..then apologizing when it's pointed out.

 

It's a big list of scum moves all in order to dishearten town. Take away their drive to scumhunt.

 

 

[keyholder21]

Peace posts, without commentary.

 

Part 6 -

 

 

 

 

I flat-out diagree with most of those accusations of late- you are the one constantly bringing up his setup talk, he hasn't mentioned it in pages. He has been scumhunting recently and posting relevant things.

Also, as cloud said, it is unlikely that both he and golden are scum, given their trains

The bold - What does that prove? He stopped doing it once I pointed it out. How does he get credit for it in that regard?

 

 

Please go through and counter each one individually. With specific reasons as to why I am wrong.

 

 

I flat-out diagree with most of those accusations of late- you are the one constantly bringing up his setup talk, he hasn't mentioned it in pages. He has been scumhunting recently and posting relevant things.

Also, as cloud said, it is unlikely that both he and golden are scum, given their trains

Explain this please.

 

 

You don't have to talk about it anymore Nolder. My post was directed at Hoof for his thoughts on these things. So..if you wish to stop, ok.

 

 

 

I flat-out diagree with most of those accusations of late- you are the one constantly bringing up his setup talk, he hasn't mentioned it in pages. He has been scumhunting recently and posting relevant things.

Also, as cloud said, it is unlikely that both he and golden are scum, given their trains

The bold - What does that prove? He stopped doing it once I pointed it out. How does he get credit for it in that regard?

 

 

Please go through and counter each one individually. With specific reasons as to why I am wrong.

 

I'm not going to put on a massive defence of a guy that is relatively high on my list, but as for the setup talk thing, he made about one post on it- which is hardly distracting. setup talk is not inherently distracting or scummy, it is a useful exercise, as long as it does not go to extremes. That you are making such a big deal over this minor thing is quite scummy, however.

 

 

 

I flat-out diagree with most of those accusations of late- you are the one constantly bringing up his setup talk, he hasn't mentioned it in pages. He has been scumhunting recently and posting relevant things.

Also, as cloud said, it is unlikely that both he and golden are scum, given their trains

Explain this please.

 

 

I've formed the opinion that it is highly unlikely that two mafia would be run up like that. If Nolder was mafia, he likely would have voted Golden, but he didn't, and although he DID vote for a stupid reason, he admitted his mistake (if a mistake it was) it does not fit what a scum would likely do in that situation, in my opinion. His lynch also grew quite quickly, which is a point in his favour.

 

In fact it has happened recently in the Walking Dead game day 1. Both Despo and I were scum that game. Below is a vote count showing that both of us were the two competing trains with 12 hours til deadline. It happens. Don't rule it out.

 

 

 

Vote Count 1.21

Dap (1) - Peace

Peace (4) - Nolder, Dap, Despo, Theodora

Despo (4) - BFG, Leelou, Lenlo, Goldeneyes

BFG (1) - Pral

Goldeneyes (1) - Err

Lenlo (1) - Ishy

 

Not Voting: Mish

 

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

 

Deadline: 10PM PST http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20131122T22&p0=770&msg=Day+1+Deadline&csz=1&swk=1

 

T-Minus 12 hours to DL.

 

 

 

So, this post from Nolder in rebuttal of my statements is interesting. It's obvious Cloud missed some important miscues here considering his "Nolder is playing better" statement. (which btw...doesn't mean Nolder is town..if he is playing better.)

 

 

 

Disappears.

Told everyone I was going to be busy.

I appreciate the breaks I was given for my patchy activity.

Not much else to say about that.

 

He appreciates it..yet has attacked others for it.

 

Shows up when getting heat and it looks like he is going to be the days lynch target and gets active all the sudden.

What was that, about two solid hours in the early morning for me?

I woke up before anyone else and committed myself to staying online and keeping up with the thread until I had to go.

And btw I'd been getting heat continuously, it just reached it's "hottest" near the deadline.

 

Doesn't discount my point. But doesn't address the timing. Only when a lynch on him was imminent does he play in earnest.

 

During this time he makes many incorrect statements that he later "apologizes" for. "Oh I missed that." Or "I admit I was skimming." (<skimming is scummy btw)

During this time? What time exactly would that be?

Please narrow it down from page X to page Y for us so we can all examine this timeframe.

Pretty sure I've only made and apologized for two or three mistakes this entire game.

Skimming is bad yeah. All I had time for though.

 

Questions when these mistakes happened, implying I'm fabricating here....then admits he did. And admits to skimming.

 

Successfully derails his own train.

How does on derail their own train?

I can't control how people vote.

Admittedly I didn't want anyone to vote me but I don't see what's wrong with that.

Hell how can you even say I successfully derailed my own train in any sense of those words?

My two attempts at pushing other trains (Hallia, Theo) failed utterly while I train I had nothing to do with turned out to be the lynch.

This isn't even lying so much as it's rewriting history and hoping everyone has some kind of collective amnesia.

 

Here is the good one. He doesn't quote the whole statement I made. He changes the context from what the important part was. Here is the original statement in it's entirety. "Successfully derails his own train. 2 others develop in the mean time. He votes neither of them even though we are close to the deadline. Instead...wants to lynch an inactive who had let everyone know she was sick. At least 1 of the 2 trains was scum. Why wasn't he part of it?"

 

2 others develop in the mean time. He votes neither of them even though we are close to the deadline.

Eh, pros and cons there.

I erred on the side of not voting blind.

It's easy to say I should have done this or that or the other thing but you weren't in my shoes.

You buried your vote on Goldeneyes prior to the deadline discussion and didn't even participate there so I'm not sure that you have the high ground to call out my decisions as poor during that time.

 

Here he does address the important part of the previous statement. It's not blind voting when up against a deadline. You pick the best of the two and look for info. At least 1 of the two were scum.

 

My vote wasn't buried. I brought light to Golden's bad post. And later broke it down sentence by sentence to solidify.

 

Oh..I'm not calling your decisions POOR. Let's be clear. I'm calling them scummy.

 

Instead...wants to lynch an inactive who had let everyone know she was sick. At least 1 of the 2 trains was scum. Why wasn't he part of it?

Nothing to say here that wasn't already covered.

 

Yes, covered with an answer...but this type of stuff in conjunction with all the other play adds up to something.

 

Then he basically starts spamming the game thread. Responds in a lot of individual posts, bumping up his post count while making they game more of an obstacle for townees to wade through.

NO. GFY.

I'm not going to stop spamming until the quote limit is removed from DM.

It's a crappy limitation that does no one any good.

I am not going to spend hours and hours formatting quotes (because whatever system we use likes to "autofix" things incorrectly instead of just leaving quotes broken so they're easy to spot and fix) only to try to post and have the forum tell me my damn post has too many quotes so I have to cut and post and cut and post resulting in at least 2 or 3 posts anyway. No. I'm not going to do it and you're just going to have to deal with it like everyone else has to and like how I have to deal with the fact that I literally cannot just make 1 mega post like I'd prefer to do most of the time anyway.

 

Yet he took the time to break down this post into parts. Railing against the system? Everyone seems to do just fine with it.

 

Not only does he use that tactic, he tries to steer the game into set up discussion. Further derailing scumhunting.

I'm done talking about this.

If anyone is derailing here it is clearly you.

 

You can call my case on you wrong, scummy, idiotic...whatever. But this is not derailing. It's just not letting scum off the hook.

 

My points are in blue in the body of the quote. Also down below for easy reference.

 

1 -He appreciates it..yet has attacked others for it.

2- Questions when these mistakes happened, implying I'm fabricating here....then admits he did. And admits to skimming.

3- Here is the good one. He doesn't quote the whole statement I made. He changes the context from what the important part was. Here is the original statement in it's entirety. "Successfully derails his own train. 2 others develop in the mean time. He votes neither of them even though we are close to the deadline. Instead...wants to lynch an inactive who had let everyone know she was sick. At least 1 of the 2 trains was scum. Why wasn't he part of it?"

4- Here he does address the important part of the previous statement. It's not blind voting when up against a deadline. You pick the best of the two and look for info. At least 1 of the two were scum.

 

My vote wasn't buried. I brought light to Golden's bad post. And later broke it down sentence by sentence to solidify.

 

Oh..I'm not calling your decisions POOR. Let's be clear. I'm calling them scummy.

5- Yes, covered with an answer...but this type of stuff in conjunction with all the other play adds up to something.

6- You can call my case on you wrong, scummy, idiotic...whatever. But this is not derailing. It's just not letting scum off the hook.

 

 

Sorry Csarmi...didn't realize that was in your rules.

 

 

I believe I also said that he was playing more townie. Feel free to reread that post.

 

I'm starting to get a migraine right now so I will most likely be back in the evening.

yes..I remember that. It's the only reason I did the blue post. Just wanted to make sure certain things were clear.

 

 

[Makes a 'Behind Blue Eyes' reference. Edited for quote limit.]

 

[props to Verbal for recognizing The Who. Edited for quote limit.]

 

[ to Des's post. Edited for quote limit.]

 

 

Nolder on a rampage. Sorry you are having those issues.

 

## vote Nolder

 

If Nol flips town then I will start looking your way Tom, you seemed to be tunneling on him lately

This was vote #6 on Nolder. Normally a good place to bus...but his attached comment causes some doubt. Looks like he knows Nolder is town and wants to set up Tommy when Nolder would flip.

 

 

## vote Nolder

 

If Nol flips town then I will start looking your way Tom, you seemed to be tunneling on him lately

What are you even saying here? Not only have I *not* been tunneling on him, but I just myself expressed doubt about this wagon since it's got a pretty big majority for D1. You'll notice my vote's not on him.

 

Seriously, wtf.

 

Tommy's reaction here makes it look like a true WTF moment.

 

So, given this. I had Nolder as 9 on a 10 scale as likely scum. I'll dial that down to about a 6 with 5 being neutral.

 

 

 

[keyholder21]

Peace posts, without commentary.

 

Part 7 -

 

 

 

I really don't like the Hally train FWIW. She's scummy by inactivity basically, but I dunno how voting her makes any more sense than voting an inactive. I have repeatedly been called out for wanted to lynch in actives early, just saying.

Here is a post where he basically defends Hally. He has others. So, I'm still secure in my current vote.

 

 

I suggest everyone ISO Golden. He has some real gems in there. And it isn't a trully long ISO either. Well worth the re-read.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just did and ISO read on Krak.

 

Is the case on him the interaction between him and Cloud?

 

The worst I saw was something that could be construed as a defense of Golden when Krak was tearing up Turin's read on everyone post.

 

I don't see how you could have missed that post from Golden about Nolder and Tom when it has been mentioned several times by a couple of players (I for example kept bringing it up when I posted my reads). You failed to push Nolder's lynch forward and now you all of a sudden conventiently discovered that post? And after all that casing you did about him too? I'm not buying it.

Cause I was in a Flue stupor for 5 days.

 

 

I've addressed all your points. Your biggest one was that I did not present a case on Golden. I've quoted it 2 times for you and you have ignored it both times.

 

[Reposts the three reposts about his case on Golden.]

 

 

so, who's lying now Nolder?

 

Let's dial you up to about a 7.5 now.

 

 

 

I've addressed all your points.

I'll give you a couple from post #874.

You never addressed the fact that you voted Hallia despite being able to (seemingly) make a better case on me.

You never addressed my accusation of "aloofness" or "active lurking" other than to say you were sick but when I followed up on that and explained that it was more than just being absent but also how you'd run into and out of conversations without finishing them you never responded, which is a perfect example of what I was talking about ironically enough.

 

 

Your biggest one was that I did not present a case on Golden.

This is your opinion and it's wrong.

I never said or indicated in any way that anything you had to do with Golden was central to my case on you.

In fact I would say it's your pattern of not explaining your votes overall. Golden was the one time where you did explain your vote and it was only after being pushed (twice IIRC) and it wasn't a very good explanation even then (imo).

 

I've quoted it 2 times for you and you have ignored it both times.

In post #905 I clearly acknowledge your case two times. Once at the beginning of the post in my numbered list and then again after the second quote where I go on to tell you why I think it was a bad explanation.

 

#1 and I disagreed with your assessments. They were weak, like I've said before.

 

#2 how do you combat and aloofness accusation. Maybe look of the definition of aloof, then provide posts of mine that back up your claim.

 

#3 You've referenced several times that I did not case Golden...so it appears to be a large point to you. (regardless of whether you expressly stated it as such).

You've stated that I never presented a case. I proved there that you are the one who lied cause I reposted now 4 times for you. (Your 100% verifiable false statement)

 

Nolder. Do you have a clear read on Hally as town?

 

This is your #905 post.

 

 

Nolder, you keep accusing me of not giving reason's.

Because it's true. One time does not change the trend.

Let's go back through this entire thread and look at your votes shall we?

• Post #114 you vote Elf with no reason. We all remember how this went don't we? Tommy asked you to explain your vote. You didn't, instead you dodged and implied your reasons were the same as Cloud's but never stated so outright. Elf asked you to explain. You ignored her. She votes you and asks again. You tell her to reread the thread as if there is something to find other than nonsense and dodging. I jump in and explain why asking why you have to "regurgitate" Cloud's reasons aren't the same as saying "I agree with Cloud" and that you still need to give a reason. You ignore that and call me scum. Let's move on to your next vote.
• Post #279 you vote Goldeneyes and say his last post was a "big pile" that you'll explain in the morning. Maybe. You didn't so Cloud reminded you and asked you to explain again. You say you will if things calm down at work. You do eventually get around to it in post #305 but the only thing you said which can be called a case IMO was the last bit where you say Goldeneyes was very "astute and succinct" in his other game with you and now he isn't. Which strangely echo's Leelou. Or maybe she's echoing you. Regardless this is the one time you give any kind of reason or explanation. Let's move on and prove that though.
• Post #831 you vote me. Your case? "His voting actions yesterday were scummy. Looked made to hide any info incase he got lynched. His reasoning did not suffice to me." That's a direct quote as anyone who wishes to click the link will see. You've made 3 votes in two game days and 46 pages and not once have you bothered to actually case anyone. "do I really have to regurgitate?" "the play is different from some other game" "the voting is scummy". This is all trash and I've called it as such every time.

I gave a clear reason for voting Golden. I even quoted for you a page back. You continue to fabricate to make your stories seem more true.

It's not clear. At it's very best it's a meta case which is unreliable in the best of circumstances between individuals who have played together for years. You've played all of two games with Golden and somehow you and Leelou think you have his meta down to the point where that's all you need to lynch him? I think you buried your vote on a teammate early because your style this game is to remain quiet and lurky. Maybe you're the GF trying to bait a cop view idk but what I do know is your play is scummy and you deserve to be lynched for it.

 

Hally never voted Golden.

Yes, I was mistaken.

 

I've played in many games with Hally...probably many more than you. And your representation of her is incorrect. She does not post a lot...but when she does it means something usually. This game...nothing. There hasn't been 1 game related post.

You're either lying intentionally or just plain wrong.

It could be possible the times she's played with me and done the same you weren't in those games.

I'm not going to take the time to prove you wrong right now but if you want to hold to this claim or if Hallia would like to see what I'm saying either of you can feel free to PM me after the game and I'll go through old games with you guys and point out how often she posts fluff and not much else.

 

Set up talk is distracting and IS a common mafia/scum tactic. Scum hunt and all will work out. If we lynch 4 total scum and the game isn't over...then worry about a survivor. You want to survivor hunt? That is a scum ploy...not town ploy.

Setup talk CAN be distracting. Not IS.

It is dependent on the situation. Right now you are making it distracting.

It happened for a couple posts and now it's done which is a perfect example of useful setup talk going perfectly.

If I was pushing setup talk you might have had a point but I already dropped it and moved on.

The fact that you are trying to push this angle just reeks of desperation.

 

And as far as you calling me aloof??? I've been laid up in bed with the flu since last Thursday. I've made that clear.

Have you? Made it clear I mean. You're someone's who's posts I tried not to skip or skim and I've gone back and reread a couple times now and I don't recall you or anyone else mentioning being sick. If that's true I'm sorry you've been sick but I think you misunderstand what I meant when I said aloof. You're taking it to mean inactive or lurky it seems and thaat's not what I meant. I meant aloof in the "active lurking sense". You are here and you make that clear but you don't engage in discussion like the rest of us do. And when you're forced into one you disappear and/or change the subject and start a debate with someone else. I noticed you used this tactic to avoid explaining your votes three or four times by picking a fight with Tommy in the early game.

 

Funny you wish to use that logic on me considering your aloofness and lack of participation the first 30 pages of the game.

Logical fallacy. Tu Quoque.

You're answering criticism with criticism instead of engaging with my argument.

What I do, right or wrong, has nothing to do with what you do, right or wrong.

Putting that aside though I payed for my activity problems by nearly being lynched and still actively being on several peoples scum lists including our confirmed town.

 

Nolder, you keep accusing me of not giving reason's.

Because it's true. One time does not change the trend.

Let's go back through this entire thread and look at your votes shall we?

• Post #114 you vote Elf with no reason. We all remember how this went don't we? Tommy asked you to explain your vote. You didn't, instead you dodged and implied your reasons were the same as Cloud's but never stated so outright. Elf asked you to explain. You ignored her. She votes you and asks again. You tell her to reread the thread as if there is something to find other than nonsense and dodging. I jump in and explain why asking why you have to "regurgitate" Cloud's reasons aren't the same as saying "I agree with Cloud" and that you still need to give a reason. You ignore that and call me scum. Let's move on to your next vote.

It was clear I agree with Clouds case.

• Post #279 you vote Goldeneyes and say his last post was a "big pile" that you'll explain in the morning. Maybe. You didn't so Cloud reminded you and asked you to explain again. You say you will if things calm down at work. You do eventually get around to it in post #305 but the only thing you said which can be called a case IMO was the last bit where you say Goldeneyes was very "astute and succinct" in his other game with you and now he isn't. Which strangely echo's Leelou. Or maybe she's echoing you. Regardless this is the one time you give any kind of reason or explanation. Let's move on and prove that though.

I posted the reasoning as soon as opportunity presented itself. Had nothing to do with Cloud And the WHOLE post was my case. Not just the last line.

• Post #831 you vote me. Your case? "His voting actions yesterday were scummy. Looked made to hide any info incase he got lynched. His reasoning did not suffice to me." That's a direct quote as anyone who wishes to click the link will see. You've made 3 votes in two game days and 46 pages and not once have you bothered to actually case anyone. "do I really have to regurgitate?" "the play is different from some other game" "the voting is scummy". This is all trash and I've called it as such every time.

That was my case on you. You were hiding your vote 3 hours before deadline trying to start a new train. You refused to vote even when pressure to the 2 other prevailing trains at the time. Just because you don't call it a case...doesn't make it not one.

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone one of your responses has been in the format of seeing something white and calling it black.

 

"Peace has never presented a reason for voting Goldeneyes."

 

Here...here is the case that you missed.

 

"Why doesn't peace present the case?"

 

Dude..it's right here. Lookee lookee.

 

"Peace has a trend of not presenting cases."

 

Seriously? I've requoted one 3 times.

 

"Oh...that's not a case."

 

WTF?

 

 

 

Then previously when I've cased you and gave my reasons. You respond back with things like "I was busy and I'm not gonna apologize for it." So...what, we take your word for it? Oh, Nolder said he was busy and when he is busy skimming is ok. No reason to suspect him. Seriously...why do you act so offended when someone thinks you are scum in a scum hunting game? I don't get it.

 

 

Basically, I'm tired of going back and forth with you when your only real response is "He's lying."

 

I'm sure everyone else here is tired of the tit for tat between us as well.

 

Nolder.

 

Really, I'm done with you dude. This round and round and round is boring.

 

 

Push my lynch, what ever dude. You are being an ass.

 

Whatever you may think of my arguments and rhetoric, at least I never called you a cheater and a (real world) liar.

Nolder, I do have some strong opinions about you that aren't very flattering. But cheater and (real world) liar has never crossed my mind.

 

 

Well then I think you should reread what you said and what it means in the broader scope of things because that is exactly what you insinuated.

I don't have a clue what you are talking about. You've lost your mind.

 

Nolder...there are plenty of players on DM mafia who have lied about being busy in order to make reasons for lurking. People have admitted it openly.

 

People have faked emo.

 

They have faked headaches.

 

They have faked the flu. (I had the flu..but I wouldn't get bent if you accused me of lying about it.)

 

So...put on your big boy pants and GET OVER IT.

Here's Nolders real view on claiming busy. Nolder...you and your fake scummy emo can just get lynched.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/82680-rl-issues-and-mafia/?hl=lying

 

 

Didn't read any responses yet since I don't want my own response to be influenced.

 

The reason people harp on others for mentioning RL is not because we don't care but because it's irrelevant.

You were sick, your kids were sick, your computer died, a family member died, you were busy, zombies invaded. Whatever.

All of that sucks but it doesn't have anything to do with the game.

I understand it can be frustrating when people are asking you where you've been and then they either don't care for your answer or perhaps even insinuate you may be lying but the thing to remember is that most of those people are just as frustrated as you and they can't take anything you say for anything but gameplay. To do otherwise would be a mistake.

It's poor form to fake RL issues to cover for lurking but it does happen from time to time. And the other people will say they don't believe you just to rile you up. Because that is part of mafia. It's harsh but some players are cutthroat.

 

One thing I personally don't like is when people say they "have a life outside mafia/DM" or whatever. That to me translates to blowing off the game (and thus the responsibility to play that you voluntarily agreed to take on when you signed up) in order to hang out with friends or watch tv or whatever it is you do. If something important cropped up that prevented you from playing that's one thing but treating a group game you chose to participate in with low priority compared to every day activities is a good way to get on my bad side. That's just me though, dunno if other people treat that differently from any other RL excuse.

 

[says he’s going to bed. Edited for quote limits.]

 

 

 

[keyholder21]

Peace posts, without commentary.

 

Part 8-

 

 

 

Krak, can you explain your voting pattern statement in regards to me?

Nolder, why didn't you claim doctor when you were 3 hours from a lynch as the largest train? You looked for all intents and purposes dead in the water.

That's a high risk to lose a PR.

 

I don't think Blackhoof has been wishy-washy at all. I think he has been opportunistic. He regularly attacks the latest flavor of the game then back tracks when steam on that player is lost.

 

 

VoteCount Day01#17

 

01 - Peace: -> Elf -> Golden

02 - Cloud: -> Elf -> Turin -> Hoof -> Turin -> Nolder -> NULL -> Krak -> Golden

03 - Krak: -> Cloud -> Hoof -> NULL

04 - GoldenEyes: -> Elf -> Via -> NULL -> Nolder

05 - TommyRod: -> Peace -> Turin -> Hoof -> NULL -> Nolder -> Hally -> Golden

06 - Leelou: -> Nolder -> Hally -> Nolder -> Golden

07 - Theodora: -> Golden

08 - Elffern: -> Peace -> NULL -> Nolder -> Golden

09 - Hally: -> Golden -> Nolder -> NULL -> Krak

10 - BFG: -> Golden -> NULL -> Nolder

11 - Via: -> Golden

12 - Nolder: -> Hally -> NULL -> Theo

13 - BlackHoof: -> Peace -> Nolder

14 - Turin: -> Tommy -> NULL -> Krak -> Golden

 

 

Golden - 8 - Peace, Thea, Via, Turin, Tommy, Leelou, Cloud, Elf

Nolder - 3 - BFG, Hoof, Golden

Krak - 1 - Hally

Theo - 1 - Nolder

 

Not voting: Krak

8 to lynch.

Deadline: 2013-12-29, 20:00 GMT - this is final, no extension will be given

Countdown: http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20131229T21&p0=50&msg=ChristmasMM-D1

 

That's a lynch. Scene incoming.

 

That's a lynch!

 

Day 2 Final Count

 

Krak (1) - Elf

Hally (7) - Tommy, Hoof, Peace, Krak, Key, Leelou, Cloud

Peace (1) - Nolder

Elf (1) - Hally

 

Not voting: BFG, Via

To answer Tommy's first question. Hoof is the answer.

 

Not on Goldens lynch. Was on Hally's lynch. Has been opportunistic all game.

 

 

 

Let's just stick to basics. We know there's at least 2 left so it can't be that hard. Who has had the scummiest behavior? Hardest logic to follow, most opportunistic lynch votes, avoiding being on wagons, dodging questions, that sort of thing.

That's the question I was refering to.

 

 

VOTE HOOF

 

AJ counted it, but I voted with the wrong format for this game. Gonna fix that now.

 

##VOTE HOOF

 

 

Well I know what side that puts me on.

 

##Vote Krak

If I voted Krak..would you vote Hoof?

 

 

Because your read is wrong and you are tunneling with a grudge.

 

I don't have a town read on Cloud.

 

you can skip Nolders and my emo arguments with each if you want.

 

[keyholder21]

After rereading all of those, I still get a town feel on peace.

 

Scummy play:

 

obsintate early

somewhat tunneling on nolder.

 

townie play:

 

giving reads

keeps asking (mostly) good questions of others

starts train on Golden

has a good reason, imo, for voting hally even though she was town

 

null play:

 

vocal

seemingly sticks his neck out for Turin when a lot of people thought Turin was scum