Quality Discussion Thread

[Finnssss22]

Obviously you did not look...at where I said: '(for the MOST part - and not in the **way** Sanderson used them).

 

I'm going beyond the word itself. I am loking at ''context'' and how it SOUNDED. I'm sorry, but a lot of the characters under Sanderson just don't SOUND the way they did under RJ in RJ's 11 books. ... And I'm not going to stop saying so.

 

Now, Finnsss - if you are a math whiz - why don't you figure out the PROPORTIONATE PERCENTAGE that 17 times over 12 books compares to the number of times Sanderson used it in his THREE books.

 

You'll probably get sick and puke,

 

 

Fish

 

Yeah...you'll have to check the added edit to my previous post me thinks...then recheck YOUR math.

 

This is just a continuation of the juvenile "Bloody Ashes" vs "Blood and Bloody Ashes" crap.

Posters come on here with reasonable critiques about prose, structure ect ect and then it gets mucked up with this kinda crap. THAT does make one want to puke!

[TNine]

A lot of problems, especially the ones that have to do with storylines not being wrapped up right, aren't really BS's fault, imo. He was left with a point A and a point B, and had to come up with how to connect the two out of thin air, pretty much. It feels like it is awkwardly jammed in because, in some ways, it is awkwardly jammed in. BS tried to put it into the story in the best way that fit, without knowing how they were supposed to fit in the first place.

 

Writing style--a lot of complaints, as i see them, are value-neutral, and are more criticized for not feeling like Jordan (which makes sense, since they aren't Jordan). BS uses more modern language, and writes in his own way. I think i would rather have that than a crappy emulation of Jordan's writing. A great example of this is the changing of PoV--RJ would often stick with one or two PoVs for a very long time, but BS is more likely to constantly change the narrator. Look at the chapters during the Seachan invasion--we get Egwene, then Siuan, then Egwene, then Siuan, then Egwene, then Gareth, then Gawyn (i think?), then Egwene again. Jordan wouldn't do that. Is that bad? Maybe, i wouldn't say so but you are obviously entitled to your opinion.

 

That is NOT a catch-all for when BS does screw up with his writing. Sometimes he misses his mark. Like Mat's chapters in TGS--while i enjoyed them, i can definitely see how Mat was simply not acting like Mat. Egwene was great in TGS, then kinda bipolar in ToM and AMOL. I didn't like how BS would make characters almost arbitrarily oppose each other, but then again that happened aplenty with RJ too.

[The Fisher King]

Sorry Finless...you don't get to decide which criticisms are valid and which are "crap"

 

Ohhh...wait...DO you ???

 

 

 

Fish

[Razumikhin]

Kakita - Im NOT exaggerating by THAT much, though I already said I was using hyperbole in my example. Jordan NEVER used ''downright'' or ''rightly'' in his eleven main sequence books. Ive looked.

 

The biggest problem with those words were that they were not used (for the MOST part - and not in the way Sanderson used them) by Jordanin the first 11 books!

 

Why does Brandon get to decide to add new words? ALL he was asked to do was FINISH it.

 

I almost puked when I saw the word ''Dargon Slayer'' actually used in AMOL. I despise Dreamshards and Dreamspikes and Shards and etc etc and saying ''Bloody'' and ''Saidered''

 

Im not angry that I don't like the way Brandon makes up his own phrases and words. Im angry because he had NO RIGHT to do so.

 

He was asked to COMPLETE the series and help things move...the fact that he chose to add his own touches bugs me beyond belief.

 

I guess I don't really understand this criticism.  I don't particularly like Sanderson's lexical choices, though I felt the same about Jordan (reading WoT has always, to me, involved reading bad writing for a good story).

 

But I don't see why Sanderson couldn't make up his own thoughts and words.  Why in the world did he "not have a right to"?  He was asked to finish the story - that does not mean drawing out consequences from what has happened so far.  That means fleshing out all of the details needed to get us there.  Jordan was adding new things through KoD - why can't Sanderson add his own new things?  I think the novels would have been much worse, bereft of creativity, if Sanderson felt he couldn't add anything.  You would not be hiring a writer, an author, if you so limited his or her creativity in that way.

 

Again, one might not *like* the things he adds, or like how he describes them, but it baffles me why he couldn't add things at all.

[The Fisher King]

I edited it Mods!!! - LOL !!!!

[Cybertrolloc]

 

...

 

I don't particularly like Sanderson's lexical choices, though I felt the same about Jordan (reading WoT has always, to me, involved reading bad writing for a good story).

Other way around for me :) Yes, there's problems with RJ's writing style and it can really go klunk at times, but I find it by far the most enjoyable thing in WoT (outside whenever his throw-away was at top form, probably around ACoS).

[The Fisher King]

Because it's not his series.

How about next time you remodel your house I come over and add a few of my own personal touches ? People defending should have no problem with this logic.

[Suttree]

And even the use of "rightly" was from ToM-8 "A Seven-Striped Lass" which could have been written by RJ.

Don't mean to ruin your fun but this is another chapter we know to be Brandon Finnnssss.

[Razumikhin]

Because it's not his series. How about next time you remodel your house I come over and add a few of my own personal touches ? People defending should have no problem with this logic.

 

The analogy is incompletely described.  If I am doing the work, and you just come over, then you do not have the right to do so.  But that's obviously not analogous.  Sanderson did not hijack the WoT, writing his own rogue ending.  He was invited to do it.

 

So if I invited you to remodel my house, and you did your own work, would that be justifiable?  I don't think the analogy works here either.  In remodeling, I might ask you to simply complete a vision I have.  I am not asking you to express any artistic merit of your own.  I am simply asking you to do the work according to a template.

 

This, however, is a novel.  I'm not sure it could be done according to a template in the first place, but what's more, I don't think it should.  A novel is a work of art, or, at the least, has artistic intentions.  Novels which are written analogous to the simple remodeling are the sorts of things you find in young adult literature, and in supermarkets.  If I hired you to remodel my home, and wanted you to do something inventive, creative and interesting with it - I would give you free reign to add your touches (provided it was not inconsistent with the design of the rest of the house).  That's the situation here.  Sanderson should be expressing his own creativity within those constraints.  If his creativity has overstepped those constraints, then that's a bad choice on adding something - not a problem with adding something in the first place.

[Finnssss22]

 

And even the use of "rightly" was from ToM-8 "A Seven-Striped Lass" which could have been written by RJ.

Don't mean to ruin your fun but this is another chapter we know to be Brandon Finnnssss.

 

Doesn't really matter, it's the only use of "Rightly" in either of tGS or ToM so the greater point has been overwhelmingly sustained and the hugely exaggerated use of those words been debunked beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[David Selig]

I've seen a lot of ridiculous complaints about Sanderson, but this may well be the worst. He uses certain words more often than Jordan? Of course he does - there are no two authors who use words in the same way. What was he supposed to do - calculate the exact frequency of usage of every word in Jordan's books and than stick to this as a target at all costs? This would've only increased the writing time a lot and make the prose worse since sticking to words quotas is a recipe for a stylistic disaster.

 

Besides, "rightly" is used exactly once in AMOL. About the same frequency as in the Jordan books.

[TNine]

If we're going to talk about the use of the word "rightly", can we talk about the annoying way White Sisters use "logical" like it's a  totem? Seriously? "Your logic was very good today"? What's next, "May the logic be with you"? Talk about making caricatures. Not that that was BS, that started with RJ way back in LoC.

And i'm still pissed at whoever it was that brought up BS's use of the word "tempest". Now every time i reread it annoys the heck out of me. So thank you for that. Still better than Elayne using the word "gem" though.


More on topic, i doubt BS used the word "rightly" more than RJ used some variation of the words "tugged her braid".

[Suttree]

 

 

 

And even the use of "rightly" was from ToM-8 "A Seven-Striped Lass" which could have been written by RJ.

Don't mean to ruin your fun but this is another chapter we know to be Brandon Finnnssss.

Doesn't really matter, it's the only use of "Rightly" in either of tGS or ToM so the greater point has been overwhelmingly sustained and the hugely exaggerated use of those words been debunked beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Just clarifying mate and to be clear no I don't agree with this specific complaint.

[Mesothalassa]

First of all, thanks for this post Luckers. I really needed to hear some other opinions for and against this novel and, of course, to voice my own. Generally speaking I found myself becoming more and more uncomfortable as I got through this book. If I had to summarize I would simply say, "AMoL is ...hard to stomach. The writing is poor and story shabby compared to the other novels." That said, as a stand alone affair I'd give a B- or C+. The prequel was flawless, in my opinion, but it takes a dive with the events of Camealyn. The first thing to stand out was the direction from "plot" to an attempt (and failed one) at "Story arc". I'm making a distinction here between a "plot" and a "story arc": A plot being the general course of the novel without an intent to accomplish (by author) where as "story arc" includes both the intent to accomplish character development and a conclusion of some aspect of story within the novel (or simply one of these two things). Jordan had a lot of characters that never possessed a strong characterization. Padan Fain being amongst them... but suddenly we are seeing these character's missing life events being filled in, however haphazardly. Fain didn't need to be a fully flushed out character. Neither did Talmanes. I've had enough boyfriends in my life (and girl friends) whoever failed to ever develop - at all. What says a character or a plot ever needs this? Did Lord of the Rings really come out all flush and tidy? This attempt by modern writers and Hollywood producers to force 'development' in a story is unnecessary and unrealistic in my opinion. I think Sanderson (without fault to himself) caught this bug and didn't realize it to be a disease. It mean, it's appealing to believe we get to see all the characters worked out and their lives basically on forward footing post-the Last Battle. Nothing lingering from the past. However, it's unrealistic and I wish it hadn't found its way into the AMoL. 

Women... somewhere down the road I began to realize there is something wrong with how Jordan addresses women in his story. They are not world shapers. This takes some explanation as I believe people get a little short sighted whenever this argument is made. To be a world shaper a person must plan, execute, and accomplish their plan while in turn others must be able and willing to glorify their attempts. This is not something I have yet to see happen with a female character in fantasy. Especially true with Jordan and Sanderson. I'm not saying I have hatred here, but I do feel deeply disappointed. Men in Wheel of Time shape the world. They make plans, they execute those plans, and for good or ill people acknowledge their -accomplishments- and set similar goals for themselves. With women, this is not the case. Women forged the White Tower, but it it was through entropy and its sheer persistence that it remained. Yes, the persistence could speak of its power (and actually does) but it is not the same as glorifying the one single woman or group of women who set it in motion. There is nothing in Wheel of Time except for Latra Posae Decume... whom I personally believe was Edgwene in the current age. Of Decume, all we can really say she is remembered for is preventing Lews Therin from accomplishing his strike at the Dark One. Then there is Lanfear... if ever a character deserved redemption it is her. But Jordan lathers this character with persistent, unexplained scorn. Why? She finds the Bore? People hated her for that but she wasn't looking for it. She didn't even turn to the Shadow until it was obvious there was no salvation for herself in the Light. If need to question this to think of what happened to her Aiel servant. We can be sure she was cast out as, if not cause, prime among the reasons the Shadow ever touched the world. What more would we expect of a terrified, blame seeking populous than to scorn her? Her turn to the Shadow was one of the only forsaken who really had a conflict to resolve there. We don't see that happen. We don't see anything of Hawkwing's Daughter's attempt to take Shara. Faile was the only woman we see in all of Wheel of Time who leads an army and accomplishes anything with it significant to the major plot (i.e. keeping Perrin alive). Whole thing with women ends up feeling very Sword of Truth ish. Degrading and very gendered. And why are only the women in the Forsaken being so radically punished? I am just not convinced that the Dark One had enough sexual energy to become so one sided to his female chosen. I rather think this was all in the writers. 

Magic... oh magic. When did the One Power suddenly turn into magic we might look for in say... Warhammer? It's suddenly very superficial and flashy and not well thought out. Jordan was a physicist. The whole nature of the magic in Wheel of Time had that special quality of being 'near-possible'. "If we only had realized..." ..."how to align the matrix" ..."creating standing flows." ..etc..etc..."We could have ter'angreal doing most of the advanced work load. Industry would go on, otherwise, quite as normal. I felt that Perrin's ability to be able to overcome compulsion in the dreamworld trumped the abilities of the One Power and in so doing basically threw out the whole premise magic set down in the series. That's not even getting into Rand's obnoxious overpowered meta-gaming by the end. I think before I go too far though, I have to acknowledge Jordan's (I'm assuming) use of the word Purity. Obviously Jordan felt that it was important to make it known there were pure and impure states of the Saidin, Saidar, and the True Power. He made this claim in Book One when "they died to make it pure"; mentioning the men and women who made the Eye of the World. So, Purity was a big deal for Jordan. Unfortunately, Purity seems to be what really drives everything in his story. So... Perrin could overcome Compulsion because he knew his purest self. Rand could channel pure Saidin and Saidar because he -is- the pattern by the the story I guess? Whatever the case, Purity was not well enough worked out early in the story. It's appearance at the end destroys the whole establishment of checks and balances that had been worked out throughout the rest of the novels. Sure, that's fine to do ... but not the last book of the series. It's just too much of a MacGuffin.

The Creator...Rand... the Dark One... and the hopeless samsara of the Wheel. Did anyone else feel like the end of the book was the worst possible ending imaginable? If the Dark One had taken over at least it would be a change. With Rand's solution the whole world is doomed to repeat itself...  endlessly... just as it has. All I could think at the end of the novel was... "Rand needs to die." Men would become no better than the Dark One if he killed the thing? Why? It's not explained, it's the worst writing imaginable. Just some random words thrown on a page in hopes we're frothing at the mouth overcome by emotion? I was so dead with boredom and "this is too much magic" that I felt like a fan that had just watched the ending of Mass Effect 3... "There's no hope. No free will. No choice. Choose your space-magic and watch the pre-selected cinematics. 20plus years of reading...of character development...of build up to 'win the last battle' and..." dead... Rand gets to say, "Ahhh, whatever... we can do this again! It was fun! That's what it's all about? Seriously... worse than the forsaken. Rand must die." 

 

I stop here. There's nothing more to write.

[Vambram]

Mesothalassa, you wrote a detailed and interesting explanation about what you strongly dislike in Jordan's and Sanderson's writings of the Wheel of Time.

 

 

 

 

However, I believe you got a much different interpretation of the various plot lines, character interactions, magic system, and plot resolutions within the 14 books of The Wheel of Time than the vast majority of millions of fans who have thoroughly enjoyed this series.

 

[Vambram]

I've seen a lot of ridiculous complaints about Sanderson, but this may well be the worst. He uses certain words more often than Jordan? Of course he does - here are no two authors who use words with in the same way. What was he supposed to do - calculate the exact frequency of usage of every word in Jordan's books and than stick to this as a target at all costs? This would've only increased the writing time a lot and make the prose worse since sticking to words quotas is a recipe for a stylistic disaster.

 

Besides, "rightly" is used exactly once in AMOL. About the same frequency as in the Jordan books.

+1

[The Fisher King]

I actually agreed with a lot of Mesothelioma's points.

 

Grand total of five women in the entire series I didn't HATE.

 

Verin. Moiraine. Min. Nynaeve. Cadsuane.

 

FIVE. Out of hundreds. What does that tell you??

 

 

Fish

[Vambram]

I actually agreed with a lot of Mesothelioma's points.Grand total of five women in the entire series I didn't HATE.Heron. Moiraine. Min. Nynaeve. Cadsuane.FIVE. Out of hundreds. What does that tell you??Fish

On the side of the Light, there was only just ONE woman in the series which I hated. I am referring to Elaida.

[Suttree]

here is nothing in Wheel of Time except for Latra Posae Decume... whom I personally believe was Edgwene in the current age. Of Decume, all we can really say she is remembered for is preventing Lews Therin from accomplishing his strike at the Dark One.

Actually we can say she is responsible for saidar not being tainted and then being the driving force to make sure the world survived the breaking.

 

Then there is Lanfear... if ever a character deserved redemption it is her. But Jordan lathers this character with persistent, unexplained scorn. Why? She finds the Bore? People hated her for that but she wasn't looking for it. She didn't even turn to the Shadow until it was obvious there was no salvation for herself in the Light.

It seems as if you totally misread Lanfear as a character. It would have been totally unrealistic and gone againat everything bit if information we have been give about her character for her to come back to the light and get redemption. Her two driving characteristic have always been greed and power. Per RJ she was "ripe for the shadows plucking" long before the bore was drilled. The bore had nothing to so with her turning So you are wrong about this "last resort" thing. in fact she was the single person involved with the project who went over to the shadow.

 

She never truly loved LTT she was using him for the power and prestige that came along with being associated with. The author called it laughable that she would ever do good for his sake. She commited more atrocities than any other forsaken during the war off power. At a time in which self service and personnel sacrifice where what brought acclaim she failed to earn the third name despite being the most poweful woman AS. She was looking for power when she got involved with the project in the first place and we have not gotten a shred of evidence anywhere in the story that would indicate it was in her character to turn back to the light.

 

You're also pretty far off on the ending as well. I suggest you do a reread there to better understand what went on concerning free will etc.

[Finnssss22]

 

here is nothing in Wheel of Time except for Latra Posae Decume... whom I personally believe was Edgwene in the current age. Of Decume, all we can really say she is remembered for is preventing Lews Therin from accomplishing his strike at the Dark One.

Actually we can say she is responsible for saidar not being tainted and then being the driving force to make sure the world survived the breaking.

 

>Then there is Lanfear... if ever a character deserved redemption it is her. But Jordan lathers this character with persistent, unexplained scorn. Why? She finds the Bore? People hated her for that but she wasn't looking for it. She didn't even turn to the Shadow until it was obvious there was no salvation for herself in the Light.

It seems as if you totally misread Lanfear as a character. It would have been totally unrealistic and gone againat everything bit if information we have been give about her character for her to come back to the light and get redemption. Her two driving characteristic have always been greed and power. Per RJ she was "ripe for the shadows plucking" long before the bore was drilled. The bore had nothing to so with her turning So you are wrong about this "last resort" thing. in fact she was the single person involved with the project who went over to the shadow.

 

She never truly loved LTT she was using him for the power and prestige that came along with being associated with. The author called it laughable that she would ever do good for his sake. She commited more atrocities than any other forsaken during the war off power. At a time in which self service and personnel sacrifice where what brought acclaim she failed to earn the third name despite being the most poweful woman AS. She was looking for power when she got involved with the project in the first place and we have not gotten a shred of evidence anywhere in the story that would indicate it was in her character to turn back to the light.

 

You're also pretty far off on the ending as well. I suggest you do a reread there to better understand what went on concerning free will etc.

 

 

I definitely have to agree here.

[Agitel]

I'm pretty sure this board is about discussing the quality, not the "poor quality." No such assumptions made. Good and bad. I'm sorry, Fish, that you think the entire thing is poor, but no reason to lob that about as if that's what this entire board or discussion is about.

[Sarlic]

While I think the mods should come in here and do a cleanup, I would just like to take a moment to contemplate the fact that someone has offered to open a can of whoopass. Via a message board. Watch out or I'll yell at you in BOLDFACE, mutha ^^%%##!!!!!

 

Moving beyond that, I think that the complaining on here would be MONUMENTALLY louder had Brandon tried to imitate Jordan's cadence and style. Such a thing could never be done correctly. While some of the changes to the vernacular were jarring, I just can't imagine why people didnt expect it? It's a totally different author!

[Finnssss22]

 

Moving beyond that, I think that the complaining on here would be MONUMENTALLY louder had Brandon tried to imitate Jordan's cadence and style. Such a thing could never be done correctly. While some of the changes to the vernacular were jarring, I just can't imagine why people didnt expect it? It's a totally different author!

 

To take this sentiment even a little further...there was going to be complaining for anything short of the writing and pace of the first 6 books and honestly I don't think even RJ himself could have accomplished that. His best book since was easily KoD and while it was definitely a huge step in the right direction, it still wasn't on par with tSR, tFoH or LoC in my opinion.

[Suttree]

Let's not change how things went down guys. Brandon had an enormous of amount of good will when he started and TGS was released to almost total praise(in retrospect unreallistically so) due to Brandon being handled with kid gloves. IMO it hurt his growth as an author in this series and each book since was a fair level worse. We saw this after ToM when people really started addressing the issues and Team Jordan owned up to the faults. They even openly discussed things they were doing to address those issues.

 

I totally get the the unpolished prose and lowest common denominator plot work don't bother everyone and that is fine. There is a type of fantasy for everyone out there but don't pretend as if the quality of writing holds up to any of the books that RJ wrote. Complain about RJ's pace during tPoD-CoT(but take story arc into account so it really is apples and oranges) and talk about the series getting away from him but the quality of writing never dropped to the level we have seen in these last few books. That has nothing to do with a different style and cadence.

[Vambram]

I believe that it is unrealistic to expect Brandon Sanderson to write with the same very high level of quality as did Robert Jordan. However, Brandon has demonstrated that he is a good author, not only in his own books, but also in the 3 books he wrote for WOT based on RJ's notes. With Brandon's WOT books, I do not see it as unpolished prose and lowest common denominator plot work. However, neither did Brandon write TGS, TOM, and AMOL to the same very excellent quality level as RJ would have done.