Quality Discussion Thread

[Kudlak]

 

 

Let me explain myself a little then, without forcing you to picture my thought process too well, as the process is messy and the experience might be unpleasant.

First, I don't care much about plot resolutions.

Second, TGS contained Hinderstrap and fragments such as this one: "She felt it each time she thought of what this woman was doing to the institution she loved. " or "Egwene was all Ajahs" and plenty more. I don't care if it was written by Brandon or RJ. If such phrases were foodow7 products, I'd have spent half a day in the toilet. Sorry if somebody likes that style of writing. For me it was torture, especially the cheesiest plotline possible- Egwene's one.

 

Ah. Well, I guess, if I'm reading something for prose style, then I'm reading Nabokov, not a fantasy novel. Hinderstap was terrible, but I took that as BS' growing pains on writing Mat, which he got better with as time went by but never quite mastered. As to the Egwene stuff; agree to disagree -- I loved the White Tower reunification, and Egwene was easily my favorite female character in the last three books, after having mostly been indifferent to her earlier in the series. Her death really, really pained me in aMoL, because she was really the only female character I truly hoped would live to see the other side of the last battle -- I much rather would have seen Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Aviendha, Elayne, and Tuon die in the most ignoble ways possible than see Egwene die. 

Egwene's death was particularly effective because of all the characters, she was the one with the clearest plans for the future. All through her reign as Amyrlin, she's been the one to not just plan for the Last Battle and leave it at that. She planned a lot for after. And that makes her dying so much tougher. Though it may well by that by dying so heroically, she cemented her legacy, and assured support for her reformist ideas. After all, nothing adds weight to your ideas more than dying a legend.

But how ?? Becaus idiot Gawyn ?? 

[Trevor Wilson]

BTW i dont want people to think im some sort of Anti RJ person - i am incredibly grateful for him bringing me into fantasy (id read tolkien in fantasy but nothing else). And im grateful for that as ive discovered some great reads such as rothfuss. Its just in all honesty for ME things just seemed to go downhill a bit from book 9. I do appreciate others may see it differently though. And i appreciate i may be a bit pro BS as way of kings kind of blew me away...

[Kudlak]

How many time BS got on one book ?? 

[sleepinghour]

 

I agree with Brandon that the BT sequence would have worked better in ToM. I also appreciate that he's willing to discuss these things with fans and admit mistakes, but finding out how badly everything was planned is depressing. Deadlines should not have decided where the BT sequence ended up.

 

Unfortunately it's a lose-lose for them. If they slow down and take the time to do it right, people get upset that the release date gets changed.

 

Much of the upset over AMoL's delay came from the fact that Brandon and Tor had made a big deal out of Brandon having completed the first draft in December 2011. Brandon tweeted, "Ladies and gentlemen, A Memory of Light--the final book in The Wheel of Time--has been finished." Tor also announced it in their newsletter and on their website with great fanfare.

 

The book wasn't finished. It was just the first draft, which in Brandon's case apparently are very rough. Other authors don't announce their book is done when they've only completed a rough first draft. It was highly misleading to many people, so it's not surprising that many fans got upset when they had to wait more than a year to read a book that was "finished."

[Matthew79]

Is GRRM a touchy subject around here? I don't personally know any current WOT fans, so I'm not sure if there's a rivalry or anything?

 

 

GRRM is not going to write more than 8 books for that series. HBO has probably worked that into his contract. ASOIAF will be done by the end of the decade.

 

 

Considering how well the HBO series has been adapted, I'd actually be okay if GRRM just stepped to the side after composing a brief outline and let the showrunners finish it.

Not at all, I'm quite enjoying ASoIaF.

[Centauri25]

The whole argument that RJ would have blazed a lightning fast plot trail *now*, when he had not for 6-7 books in a row is really lame. It is impossible to prove or disprove. However, it is presented in this thead as though it is an unassailable fact.

[MarkDiLillo]

The whole argument that RJ would have blazed a lightning fast plot trail *now*, when he had not for 6-7 books in a row is really lame. It is impossible to prove or disprove. However, it is presented in this thead as though it is an unassailable fact.

 

Reading comprehension.

 

It's important.

[garryturk]

 

The relevance is that BS picked up a series with far too many characters and far too many plotlines and with a number of restrictions (fan wishes, limit on book numbers and pages). I personally think that has to be taken into account when looking at the last three books.

Ah, but all those different plotlines were about to be concluded after KoD, so the increasing pace was a given. RJ or BS or another writer, things were going to get a lot faster. that is most definitely not the same thing.

I really have mixed views on this point, I think there's a difference between what RJ *could* have done and what he actually *would* have done.

If you look at something like TSR then the amount that man managed to achieve in one volume is mind boggling.  Especially when the overall quality of the writing is taken into account.  Or maybe TGH for an example of a more self-contained set of arcs.  So did RJ have the ability to finish the series in one huge book (or more likely) 2 merely large ones?  Absolutely, he already proved he had the ability to  do something like that.

But I don't think the problems with the middle books were just down to the point in the overall story arc.  I think Suttree expresses it well by saying the "story got away from him", but I also felt like he was indulging himself at that point.  He knew he was an exceptional world builder with a unique flair for immersive writing and to me he just wanted to go deeper, build some more, explore a new character angle, plant new seeds.

KOD was an improvement -- thank god because if we'd gotten another COT I think WOT would have rissked turning into a 20 book fantasy soap opera.  In the best possible world RJ would have remained healthy, kept his focus and delivered a series finale in 2 majestic books.  (Though some of the issues with the AMOL ending I do think would still remain).  Worst case -- modulo his health of course -- he would have went indulgent again and we'd have had another 5.

It's all academic of course but just as some criticise BS for inconsistent writing in his volumes I do think RJ had a risk of not delivering the series ending he was capable of.

Oh, and we'll not get the chance to see how BS does mid-series anytime soon; Stormlight Archive is 2 5-book arcs and I don't think the same problems arise in 5 books as opposed to 10 or more.

[Suttree]

 

 

The whole argument that RJ would have blazed a lightning fast plot trail *now*, when he had not for 6-7 books in a row is really lame. It is impossible to prove or disprove. However, it is presented in this thead as though it is an unassailable fact.

Reading comprehension.

 

It's important.

Seriously. That and a basic comprehension of story arc.

[Kudlak]

Warning, this will be long.

 

I'm currently 28 years old, and picked up the series right after ACOS came out, ~17 years ago.  Growing up, I read each of the first seven books at least a dozen times apiece, posted on WOTmania, and was in general highly invested in the story.  That continued as I grew older, and I was heartbroken at the news of Jordan's passing.  With Sanderson's selection, I was hopeful, but still very much concerned about how the quality of the series would hold up.

 

Unfortunately, those concerns proved to be well-founded.  Characters were mangled, the language altered, and many of the scenes cringe-worthy.  Mat's letter to Elayne stands as the single most egregious example, and the worst couple of paragraphs in the entire series, though there are plenty of others.  All these elements combined to make TGS and TOM deeply flawed books, yet the story and strength of character was enough to keep those flaws from being fatal.  I could, and did, re-read them with a fair amount of pleasure, wincing at the mis-steps, but still enjoying the journey and speculating about the end.

 

With AMOL, we get the worst of both worlds, Sanderson's lousy writing without the story and development to which we've become accustomed.  In my mind, it stands as the single-worst volume in the series, with the next-worst (COT) only barely glimpsed in the rear-view mirror.  Sanderson's many and glaring flaws as a writer are still on display--the hokey, juvenile sense of humor; the pandering to fans; the abysmal word choice and prose.  Most of these scenes have been discussed in this thread already, so I see no need to rehash them.  Suffice it to say that I think Sanderson is a poor writer, and will not be touching any of his other works anytime soon.

 

That said, if those were the only, or even the worst, flaws in this book, I would be doing backflips.  Much as I hate to admit it, the majority of the blame for AMOL lies with RJ, who bungled the story and bungled it badly.  There were lots of reasons why, though most of them, as with Sanderson, I could have overlooked.  There are two here that I'm going to focus on, Egwene's death and the overall emotional impact of the volume.

 

Egwene first.  I will begin by acknowledging that not all deaths should be or are meaningful, that good people die for bad or no reason, etc., etc.  And, as a generality, that's a perfectly valid rule.  However, it is not valid within the universe that RJ has created and crafted for 20+ years.  Good people, or at least good people who are graced with a prominent role in the story, almost never die in Randland, and when they do, it's for good cause and purpose.  Within WOT, or really fantasy literature as a whole, there are two ways to fulfill that purpose: 1. Taking out a foe equal or greater to yourself, or 2. Emotional fulfillment.  The first one requires little explanation.  Moiraine taking out Lanfear (had they actually died), Lan killing Demandred (had Lan actually died), and Shomesta weeding out (ha ha!) Balthamel are all good examples.  The second is a little more complicated, but is most often achieved with a redemptive death, e.g. Ingtar or, reaching into LOTR, Boromir.  The best deaths in the series, Verin's and Eldrene's (of legend) combined the both.

 

So does Egwene's death fit either of those criteria?  The answer is clearly "No."  To clarify, "a foe equal or greater to yourself," refers more to the narrative importance of the foe within the story than to numbers or power.  I don't care what Taim's new status was, or what tools he was using--he was, within the story, a jumped-up Dreadlord who (nominally) served under Rand for the majority of the story, was never cloaked with the power or intimidation of one of the Forsaken, and was never couched as a threat to Our Heroes outside his part in the Turning.  No homicide attempts, no dark plots threatening to ensnare them, no seduction to the DO, nothing.  Same with the nameless Ayyad she torched--no role in the story, no emotional impact, no points (cf, Amayar, suicide of).  Egwene for Taim is not a fair trade, no matter how many other random channelers you throw in.

 

The emotional fulfillment was even more lacking, and this was where things were especially bungled.  By striking Gawyn down, you give yourself a golden opportunity to have her enraged and desperate to reach her husband, striking down Ayyad and dreadlords left and right, drawing too heavily or taking too many wounds in the process, and dying at Gawyn's side as he draws his last breath.  Trite?  Sure, but it's trite for a reason: because it works.  It would have been touching, moving, and emotionally satisfying.  Instead, they chose to let him die well beforehand, take Egwene back and coddle her a little bit, give her some cheesy advice, and then sent her back out with nothing but anger.  Anger even could work, if it were a "Wrath of a Vengeful God"-type moment where she wreaked havoc on the person (to wit, Demandred) who killed Gawyn.  But no, the object of the rage was utterly disconnected from what had occurred with Gawyn.  So instead, we got a death totally disconnected from any sort of emotional response, and therefore devoid of any emotional impact save what the reader felt for Egwene herself.  The writing replaced actual emotional connection with Egwene for simple pity over her fate, and robbed the reader of what should have been a highly moving scene.  This is without even mentioning the absurdity that Lan is busy getting run through, Galad having his arm chopped off, and they both manage to survive with miracle Healings while Egwene dies from simply exhaustion/overdrawing.

 

The second, and greater, problem, and one I touched on in the previous point, is that the story was almost entirely about doing rather than feeling.  This has been another weakness of Sanderson's, kind of like "show, don't tell" on a broader scale, but was so embedded throughout the narrative that I tend to place the blame on RJ instead.  The book had a lot of action in it.  In and of itself, that's not a bad thing, although I did find it a bit repetitive.  What was a bad thing was that the book became so absorbed in that action that they forgot to take the time to show us the people.  Take out Rand's farewells, which were mostly well-done, Tam at the bier, and Olver's reunion with Noal, and there were little to no moving or significant interactions between characters.  There was no character development, no emotional displays, no strong feelings anywhere.  Sure, a character might feel angry, or worried, or relieved, but nearly all of those emotions grew out of the necessities of survival, either of the character or the army as a whole, rather than the character's own personality and background.  Others have commented on secondary characters all seeming the same in this volume--I think that's a direct result of the lack of disparate motivations and emotions throughout.  It was simply like the soul was sucked out of the characters and, accordingly, the book itself.

 

This was most egregious in the book's treatment of love.  After Rand's grand revelation at the end of TGS, one thought that love would play at least some role in the final book.  Instead, it was systematically hunted down and destroyed.  Egwene's wedding was cut.  Rand didn't get married prior to TG.  Tuon expressly said she didn't love Mat.  Affectionate interactions between loving characters were few and far between.  I could be mistaken, but I don't believe the words, "I love you," were uttered once in the entire 900 pages.  In Rand's farewell to Egwene, when she gets mad about him always treating her like a child, how about, "I was trying to remind you of when we loved each other," as his response instead of whatever fumbling reply he actually made (don't have the book at hand.  Too bad Perrin wasn't there.  He'd always know what to say to girls!)  Instead, it was like RJ had a checklist of each major character, with a box for "alive" or "dead" beside each name, and so long as he checked one of those boxes in the reader's presence, that was enough.  It's not.  Ultimately, RJ and/or BS made the worst mistake an author can make in AMOL: they focused on the what instead of the who, and absolutely wrecked the story in the process.

 

That's all I have to say for now.  Don't expect anyone to read that, much less respond to it, but feel better for getting it off my chest.  Suffice to say, the quality of this book was p**s-poor, and I could almost wish it had never been written.

Finally I found it . Somebody finally wrote what I think about this storyline thx a lot man !!!!

[Grond Sothron]

 

Warning, this will be long.

 

I'm currently 28 years old, and picked up the series right after ACOS came out, ~17 years ago.  Growing up, I read each of the first seven books at least a dozen times apiece, posted on WOTmania, and was in general highly invested in the story.  That continued as I grew older, and I was heartbroken at the news of Jordan's passing.  With Sanderson's selection, I was hopeful, but still very much concerned about how the quality of the series would hold up.

 

Unfortunately, those concerns proved to be well-founded.  Characters were mangled, the language altered, and many of the scenes cringe-worthy.  Mat's letter to Elayne stands as the single most egregious example, and the worst couple of paragraphs in the entire series, though there are plenty of others.  All these elements combined to make TGS and TOM deeply flawed books, yet the story and strength of character was enough to keep those flaws from being fatal.  I could, and did, re-read them with a fair amount of pleasure, wincing at the mis-steps, but still enjoying the journey and speculating about the end.

 

With AMOL, we get the worst of both worlds, Sanderson's lousy writing without the story and development to which we've become accustomed.  In my mind, it stands as the single-worst volume in the series, with the next-worst (COT) only barely glimpsed in the rear-view mirror.  Sanderson's many and glaring flaws as a writer are still on display--the hokey, juvenile sense of humor; the pandering to fans; the abysmal word choice and prose.  Most of these scenes have been discussed in this thread already, so I see no need to rehash them.  Suffice it to say that I think Sanderson is a poor writer, and will not be touching any of his other works anytime soon.

 

That said, if those were the only, or even the worst, flaws in this book, I would be doing backflips.  Much as I hate to admit it, the majority of the blame for AMOL lies with RJ, who bungled the story and bungled it badly.  There were lots of reasons why, though most of them, as with Sanderson, I could have overlooked.  There are two here that I'm going to focus on, Egwene's death and the overall emotional impact of the volume.

 

Egwene first.  I will begin by acknowledging that not all deaths should be or are meaningful, that good people die for bad or no reason, etc., etc.  And, as a generality, that's a perfectly valid rule.  However, it is not valid within the universe that RJ has created and crafted for 20+ years.  Good people, or at least good people who are graced with a prominent role in the story, almost never die in Randland, and when they do, it's for good cause and purpose.  Within WOT, or really fantasy literature as a whole, there are two ways to fulfill that purpose: 1. Taking out a foe equal or greater to yourself, or 2. Emotional fulfillment.  The first one requires little explanation.  Moiraine taking out Lanfear (had they actually died), Lan killing Demandred (had Lan actually died), and Shomesta weeding out (ha ha!) Balthamel are all good examples.  The second is a little more complicated, but is most often achieved with a redemptive death, e.g. Ingtar or, reaching into LOTR, Boromir.  The best deaths in the series, Verin's and Eldrene's (of legend) combined the both.

 

So does Egwene's death fit either of those criteria?  The answer is clearly "No."  To clarify, "a foe equal or greater to yourself," refers more to the narrative importance of the foe within the story than to numbers or power.  I don't care what Taim's new status was, or what tools he was using--he was, within the story, a jumped-up Dreadlord who (nominally) served under Rand for the majority of the story, was never cloaked with the power or intimidation of one of the Forsaken, and was never couched as a threat to Our Heroes outside his part in the Turning.  No homicide attempts, no dark plots threatening to ensnare them, no seduction to the DO, nothing.  Same with the nameless Ayyad she torched--no role in the story, no emotional impact, no points (cf, Amayar, suicide of).  Egwene for Taim is not a fair trade, no matter how many other random channelers you throw in.

 

The emotional fulfillment was even more lacking, and this was where things were especially bungled.  By striking Gawyn down, you give yourself a golden opportunity to have her enraged and desperate to reach her husband, striking down Ayyad and dreadlords left and right, drawing too heavily or taking too many wounds in the process, and dying at Gawyn's side as he draws his last breath.  Trite?  Sure, but it's trite for a reason: because it works.  It would have been touching, moving, and emotionally satisfying.  Instead, they chose to let him die well beforehand, take Egwene back and coddle her a little bit, give her some cheesy advice, and then sent her back out with nothing but anger.  Anger even could work, if it were a "Wrath of a Vengeful God"-type moment where she wreaked havoc on the person (to wit, Demandred) who killed Gawyn.  But no, the object of the rage was utterly disconnected from what had occurred with Gawyn.  So instead, we got a death totally disconnected from any sort of emotional response, and therefore devoid of any emotional impact save what the reader felt for Egwene herself.  The writing replaced actual emotional connection with Egwene for simple pity over her fate, and robbed the reader of what should have been a highly moving scene.  This is without even mentioning the absurdity that Lan is busy getting run through, Galad having his arm chopped off, and they both manage to survive with miracle Healings while Egwene dies from simply exhaustion/overdrawing.

 

The second, and greater, problem, and one I touched on in the previous point, is that the story was almost entirely about doing rather than feeling.  This has been another weakness of Sanderson's, kind of like "show, don't tell" on a broader scale, but was so embedded throughout the narrative that I tend to place the blame on RJ instead.  The book had a lot of action in it.  In and of itself, that's not a bad thing, although I did find it a bit repetitive.  What was a bad thing was that the book became so absorbed in that action that they forgot to take the time to show us the people.  Take out Rand's farewells, which were mostly well-done, Tam at the bier, and Olver's reunion with Noal, and there were little to no moving or significant interactions between characters.  There was no character development, no emotional displays, no strong feelings anywhere.  Sure, a character might feel angry, or worried, or relieved, but nearly all of those emotions grew out of the necessities of survival, either of the character or the army as a whole, rather than the character's own personality and background.  Others have commented on secondary characters all seeming the same in this volume--I think that's a direct result of the lack of disparate motivations and emotions throughout.  It was simply like the soul was sucked out of the characters and, accordingly, the book itself.

 

This was most egregious in the book's treatment of love.  After Rand's grand revelation at the end of TGS, one thought that love would play at least some role in the final book.  Instead, it was systematically hunted down and destroyed.  Egwene's wedding was cut.  Rand didn't get married prior to TG.  Tuon expressly said she didn't love Mat.  Affectionate interactions between loving characters were few and far between.  I could be mistaken, but I don't believe the words, "I love you," were uttered once in the entire 900 pages.  In Rand's farewell to Egwene, when she gets mad about him always treating her like a child, how about, "I was trying to remind you of when we loved each other," as his response instead of whatever fumbling reply he actually made (don't have the book at hand.  Too bad Perrin wasn't there.  He'd always know what to say to girls!)  Instead, it was like RJ had a checklist of each major character, with a box for "alive" or "dead" beside each name, and so long as he checked one of those boxes in the reader's presence, that was enough.  It's not.  Ultimately, RJ and/or BS made the worst mistake an author can make in AMOL: they focused on the what instead of the who, and absolutely wrecked the story in the process.

 

That's all I have to say for now.  Don't expect anyone to read that, much less respond to it, but feel better for getting it off my chest.  Suffice to say, the quality of this book was p**s-poor, and I could almost wish it had never been written.

Finally I found it . Somebody finally wrote what I think about this storyline thx a lot man !!!!

 

I can not agree with the OP enough. This entire book honestly felt like Sanderson was handed a sheet of paper with names and check boxes for "alive" and "dead" under it and all the emotional resonance with the reader for those checkboxes was thrown out of a window.  There was so much action in this book that there was almost no character devolpment with characters that some if not most of us have been reading for 20 years or so.

 

I'm sorry but I expected more than this. Not only did we get virtually no look at what life was like with our characters in the Fourth Age it was if any romantic relationships were intentionally rubbed out in a Nelson from the Simpsons "Ha-HAH" manner. Siuan dying literally out of nowhere and with no indication of what actually killed her (go back and read that part and tell me if you can see what actually killed her) and as a result Gareth dying was simply cruel. I am fine with characters dying but for no reason and no emotional resonance? Wow. Thanks for getting me invested for such horrible payoff in the end.

 

The main problem this book had was by default it HAD to be virtually all action and barely any time left for satisifying ends or resolution to so many, MANY characters the series held by the end. The consequence of that problem is that we as readers were treated to, quite frankly, bad fanfic standards of "I have to resolve this action so X happened to Y and then Z person did this" with no depth to it.

[Mario Cole]

Its amazing how many positive reviews there are for this book. Is the world insane? Are they shills? Maybe there's a conspiracy?

[Suttree]

Shills? Depends who you are talking about. The one you quoted in thread earlier almost made Leigh Butler look tame from a fanboy squee standpoint. Overall the reviews have been very clear in detailing the issues while saying it was a satisfactory ending to the series. It's not as if its been universally hailed as some great work of fantasy.

[Kudlak]

 

Wingendosering

 

Posted 12 January 2013 - 05:02 AM

> 

Overall the only BIG issues I had were with the epilogue and the field of merrilor meeting.  After following and caring for these characters for over a decade, I'd been hoping for something akin to the Lord of the Rings appendices, with details about how they lived their lives.  Since Jordan was intending a spin-off series to cover tuon/mat (I think?), I had been hoping for more 'post-last battle notes'.  I also didn't like Rand's ending.  The body swap thing was expected, but there was little to no explanation about it or what sort of seal he placed over the DO.  I also find it hard to believe he'd rather wander the world alone than be with the women he loves, the children he's abandoning, or letting his father/brothers in arms (mat and perrin) know he survived.

 

I don't know if that's an issue with Jordan's notes not being specific enough, Sanderson's writing choices, or just my own expectations.  Regardless, thanks to all involved for this incredible series.  I will treasure it always.

 

Yep this is my opinion too :-)

I can not agree with the OP enough. This entire book honestly felt like Sanderson was handed a sheet of paper with names and check boxes for "alive" and "dead" under it and all the emotional resonance with the reader for those checkboxes was thrown out of a window.  There was so much action in this book that there was almost no character devolpment with characters that some if not most of us have been reading for 20 years or so.

 

I'm sorry but I expected more than this. Not only did we get virtually no look at what life was like with our characters in the Fourth Age it was if any romantic relationships were intentionally rubbed out in a Nelson from the Simpsons "Ha-HAH" manner. Siuan dying literally out of nowhere and with no indication of what actually killed her (go back and read that part and tell me if you can see what actually killed her) and as a result Gareth dying was simply cruel. I am fine with characters dying but for no reason and no emotional resonance? Wow. Thanks for getting me invested for such horrible payoff in the end.

 

The main problem this book had was by default it HAD to be virtually all action and barely any time left for satisifying ends or resolution to so many, MANY characters the series held by the end. The consequence of that problem is that we as readers were treated to, quite frankly, bad fanfic standards of "I have to resolve this action so X happened to Y and then Z person did this" with no depth to it.

Well I am sorry - I mean, that I agree with Egwen description, no with everything

 

Where I see some mistakes:  1. use RJ end as inspiration no as finish line

                                                2. As I wrote before,got 3-4 years to complete these books is not enough. Practically with ediding you got cca 1,5 year per book that isn't enough

 

Another surprise for me is, that most people want ending like HP. Why ?? Isn't end like in Lord of the Rings better ? I mean put there timeline ??

[sleepinghour]

Its amazing how many positive reviews there are for this book. Is the world insane? Are they shills? Maybe there's a conspiracy?

 

In the case of Amazon, a number of disgruntled ebook readers gave AMoL low ratings to express disapproval of the ebook release date, all without having read the book. A number of other WoT/Brandon fans gave the book 5 stars to counter the bad reviews, also without having read the book at the time. So, yes, there are in fact a lot of inaccurate reviews out there, for different reasons.

[Hotncold]

Problem with BS is he mainly just writes fan pulp fiction as fast as he can.  Was he the right guy to finish this series?  Oh hell no.  Could they have found better to finish this series?  Easily?  Could they have found better to be WILLING to finish this series?  Probably not.

 

Brandon writes nothing but pulp.  Not the right guy to do this, but if its either he finishes it or it never gets finished, which would you choose?

 

He finished it.  I would imagine he made between the mid 7 and low 8 figures for finishing this series.  The one major problem I have is that he wrote other books while finishing this series.  I would think to end a series such as this you would not be multi-tasking.  The multi-tasking shows.

[MountaineerWV]

 

He finished it.  I would imagine he made between the mid 7 and low 8 figures for finishing this series.

Lol. I'd eat my boots if it was more than mid range 6 figures.

[flinn]

Problem with BS is he mainly just writes fan pulp fiction as fast as he can.  Was he the right guy to finish this series?  Oh hell no.  Could they have found better to finish this series?  Easily?  Could they have found better to be WILLING to finish this series?  Probably not.

 

Brandon writes nothing but pulp.  Not the right guy to do this, but if its either he finishes it or it never gets finished, which would you choose?

 

He finished it.  I would imagine he made between the mid 7 and low 8 figures for finishing this series.  The one major problem I have is that he wrote other books while finishing this series.  I would think to end a series such as this you would not be multi-tasking.  The multi-tasking shows.

Have you read his other works?

 

 I think his other stuff is pretty good. I thought Way of Kings is great. I cant see how any fantasy reader wouldnt like Way of Kings.

[Kudlak]

 

Problem with BS is he mainly just writes fan pulp fiction as fast as he can.  Was he the right guy to finish this series?  Oh hell no.  Could they have found better to finish this series?  Easily?  Could they have found better to be WILLING to finish this series?  Probably not.

 

Brandon writes nothing but pulp.  Not the right guy to do this, but if its either he finishes it or it never gets finished, which would you choose?

 

He finished it.  I would imagine he made between the mid 7 and low 8 figures for finishing this series.  The one major problem I have is that he wrote other books while finishing this series.  I would think to end a series such as this you would not be multi-tasking.  The multi-tasking shows.

Have you read his other works?

 

 I think his other stuff is pretty good. I thought Way of Kings is great. I cant see how any fantasy reader wouldnt like Way of Kings.

Problem is WoT is pretty big project. It is full time commitment

[sleepinghour]

Brandon writes nothing but pulp.  Not the right guy to do this, but if its either he finishes it or it never gets finished, which would you choose?

 

He finished it.  I would imagine he made between the mid 7 and low 8 figures for finishing this series.  The one major problem I have is that he wrote other books while finishing this series.  I would think to end a series such as this you would not be multi-tasking.  The multi-tasking shows.

 

I don't know how much he got for WoT, but allegedly he got a $2.5 million contract for the first four books of the Stormlight Archive.

[MountaineerWV]

 

 

Brandon writes nothing but pulp.  Not the right guy to do this, but if its either he finishes it or it never gets finished, which would you choose?

 

He finished it.  I would imagine he made between the mid 7 and low 8 figures for finishing this series.  The one major problem I have is that he wrote other books while finishing this series.  I would think to end a series such as this you would not be multi-tasking.  The multi-tasking shows.

 

I don't know how much he got for WoT, but allegedly he got a $2.5 million contract for the first four books of the Stormlight Archive.

 

 

 

**Could** if he hits certain deadlines and volume of sales. We have no idea how the contract is written, but often one has to hit the best seller list, have a certain volume of sales within so much time, etc, etc.

 

Keep in mind that with WoT, the profit is going to be split three ways most likely. Unless BS's lawyer is a fool and had BS sign a contract for a flat fee.

[rane008]

I don't post here much, but I do lurk a good amount. I'm saying this because it will be relevant later. Like all of you, I am also a dedicated fan of the series.

I finished AMOL about a week ago. In that time, I've gotten my thoughts in order regarding the end of this epic. Shortly put, I found it lacking.

When I say lacking, I do not mean in word count, or even in action. Chapter 37 was, to Brandon's great credit as he was not the student of tactics and strategy that Robert was, one of the best battle sequences I've read.  The pacing was excellent and doing it in one chapter was brilliant. In fact, my issue has little to do with Brandon. Yes his voice was off for Mat, Aviendha, and Tuon, but Androl, his own character, was one of the most compelling figures in this book. He even made Demandred somewhat sympathetic. No, my issue is with Robert.

With a saga as complex and as epic as The Wheel of Time, I expected the ending to be as complex and epic. But gone was almost mystic quality that lingered when one finished any of the first five or six books. Gone were the unanswered questions that lent to that mysticism (What was the Eye? What is the Great Serpent? How did Callendor split balefire?). Sure these questions remain somewhat unanswered, but where are the new one?  

Beyond the lack of mystery, the ending felt flat. Too tidy, too neat, too predictable. Here is where I agree with other posters. Characters wasted: Lanfear, Fain, Gawyn (and not because of his death), Galad, and Rand. Story lines that meandered and/or were cut short: Androl v. Taim, Shaisam, the Wounds, the ta'veren call.  And the twists that were in the book felt contrived.  Callendor is also a True Power s’angreal? And it has no buffer?  And two women can wrest control?  No, Callendor is a Skyhook.  Lanfear’s big plan was to pull a Ruby from Supernatural?  [sidebar: I found the Ruby storyline much more surprising.]  

Where are the hidden Darkfriends?  Aravine?  That’s it?  No Wise Ones (Sorilea, Bair, I’m looking at you).  No Clan or Sept Chiefs.  Not one of the Light’s generals from any land.  Not one ruler.  Not even hidden Black Ajah.  What of Davram or Deira?  What of Zaida?

Where were the great betrayals?  I don’t even mean by hidden agents of the Shadow but by good-intentioned people.  Or even bad people who weren’t Darkfriends.  Elaida is a perfect example.  Robert was able to weave the complexity of the human experience into his books.  There was not just right and wrong, there was a whole continuum.  The story is less compelling because of these parts are missing.  And yes, I know the “Compulsed Great Captains” constitutes a great betrayal, but there is little depth there, aside from the initial shock that Bashere may be a Darkfriend.  

But what is missing most of all, and this is a direct result of the above flaws, is the sense of legend.  I do not believe that this a story for the ages.  Robert’s vision was to weave the great archetypes of fantasy, myth, and legend into a story that elevated those archetypes into a story that transcended traditional trope.  In this, he failed.  

As I said, I am a frequent lurker here.  The most damning criticism I can give of the book is that I have read better, deeper, more moving, more SATISFYING conclusions to WOT on the Speculation threads on this board than the actual ending was.  I grew up with the alluring mysticism in the first few books.  When I was young, I wished I could channel, saw myself as the Dragon in the First Age.  And I do not think that maturity, or what little of that I can claim, has dimmed this sense of connection, of adventure.  Rather, it was the later books themselves that did that.  

Secretly, I wish the WOT Community would collaborate on a fan-rewrite.  Yeah, that sounds lame, but consider: being able to trim the fat, refocus, redirect?  It may not be the solution, but it is a solution.  Also, I am sorry that I couldn't figure out how to turn BOLD off.  

[MarkDiLillo]

How the hell are some of you blaming the ending on RJ?!

 

He didn't write the book.  He didn't write the book before this.  And he didn't write the book before that one.  The only thing you can blame on RJ is the fate of certain characters.  Dont think its right that Rand lived?  That's on RJ.  Don't like that Egwene died?  That's on RJ.  Don't like HOW Egwene died?  That's BS.

 

This is the reason that he originally wanted to burn the notes.

[Vin21]

Im saddened by the amount of complaining in EVERY single arc thread.  Our favorite series, one of the greatest and largest fantasy series of all time, just came to an end.  Instead of celebrating the awesomeness of Robert Jordan, Brandon saunderson and all of the characters that we have grown to love over 20 years, people are whining like a bunch of children that didnt get their way.  Very sad

 

This forum is ruining the experience of the final book for me. peace out, dragonmount forums. 

 

PS.  AMOL was a wonderful, exciting conclusion

[Ashaman Valen]

The thing is they needed to find an author who was 1) a fan of WOT 2) an author not in the middle of his/her own series and 3) someone who was willing to do it.

 

When people start saying stuff like BS doesn't care (enough) or doesn't spend enough time to complete the series (not taliking about TOM editing/revising which needed more time) are people that are unrealistic, unfair and disrespectful. No author would have given the time and effort that was truly needed to make the last three books truly great. It would probably take a decade of rereading, studying, writing, and revising to get it in tip top shape. That is asking a lot of an author who is in the middle of his own career who wants to write his own stories. It just isn't realistic nor fair to have a professional author give a decade (just a time I'm throwing out there) of his career to finishing someone else's work. BS did give us 5 years after all.

 

"Then he shouldn't have taken the job!" There lies the problem. If it wasn't BS a different author would have other issues. The question becomes a flawed ending to the series or no ending?

 

Now I'm not saying BS shouldn't be critiqued. I appreciate this thread where we can discuss the quality of amol. I agree with a lot of the flaws that were presented. I just think some people go a little overboard. That just tells me people's expectations were too high to be so emotional and not take it for what it is. No one could have finished it on the same level as RJ but I think BS did a good job nonetheless.