Quality Discussion Thread

[Agitel]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RJ had a lot of time to start outlining things before he died. Unless someone has an interview quote that says otherwise, I'm VERY confident that RJ outlined most of the last three books (especially the Last Battle), and Brandon just wrote the words. If you're upset with specific things that happened you should be blaming RJ; if you're upset at the writing and wording, you should be blaming Sanderson. It wouldn't take long for RJ to sit down and write a quick outline for each character:

 

Siuan: "She sticks around Bryne for most of the battle, then she leaves him at one point which goes against Min's viewings. She then chooses to go back into the burning tent to save Mat, but dies in the process."

Gawyn: "He marries Egwene, decides to use the Bloodknives ring, and dies trying to kill Demandred."

Galad: "Mat gives him a copy of the fox medallion and tells him to kill as many channelers as he can. After finding Galad dying, he tries to fight Demandred too, but also loses."

 

I find it very hard to believe that RJ wouldn't do this.

On the contrary we know for fact that isn't true. The notes were far less robust than originally thought. For instance in many places it would be "character a starts here and ends here" and Brandon would have to make up everything in between. It is no where near as detailed as you claim above. Brandon has stated he had to create well over 50% of the material from scratch with almost no guidance.

Isnt that what he just did? That was far from robust... That is saying starts here, ends here in one sentence. How can it be less than that?

Wait what? Atheose implied each step was outlined. We know that wasn't even remotely the case and Brandon had to make large sections and how things happened up from scratch.

 

"I'm VERY confident that RJ outlined most of the last three books (especially the Last Battle), and Brandon just wrote the words"

I definitely didn't mean that every step was outlined, just the important parts. Like in the example I gave regarding Galad: Mat gives him the medallion, Galad loses to Demandred, but survives to give the medallion to Lan. Those are essentially the three things that matter, but leaves BOATLOADS of room for Brandon to need to fill-in for Galad. 

 

I find it very hard to believe that RJ wouldn't do a similar outline of the important parts of each character's arc for the final books. 

 

There are some things that I'm sure RJ outlined in great detail. That does not strike me as being one of them. Perhaps he wrote something about Lan killing Demandred, maybe. 

[MarkDiLillo]

He didn't.  Brandon wrote that scene.  The Lanfear/Perrin was probably outlined though.

[Agitel]

He didn't.  Brandon wrote that scene.  The Lanfear/Perrin was probably outlined though.

 

I meant that maybe there was a note about Lan killing Demandred, not that RJ wrote the scene or outlined it in any detail. Or maybe it was all Brandon. I was just giving an example of the types of things RJ didn't leave behind and the things he might have left behind. It was sparse in places.

[Atheose]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RJ had a lot of time to start outlining things before he died. Unless someone has an interview quote that says otherwise, I'm VERY confident that RJ outlined most of the last three books (especially the Last Battle), and Brandon just wrote the words. If you're upset with specific things that happened you should be blaming RJ; if you're upset at the writing and wording, you should be blaming Sanderson. It wouldn't take long for RJ to sit down and write a quick outline for each character:

 

Siuan: "She sticks around Bryne for most of the battle, then she leaves him at one point which goes against Min's viewings. She then chooses to go back into the burning tent to save Mat, but dies in the process."

Gawyn: "He marries Egwene, decides to use the Bloodknives ring, and dies trying to kill Demandred."

Galad: "Mat gives him a copy of the fox medallion and tells him to kill as many channelers as he can. After finding Galad dying, he tries to fight Demandred too, but also loses."

 

I find it very hard to believe that RJ wouldn't do this.

On the contrary we know for fact that isn't true. The notes were far less robust than originally thought. For instance in many places it would be "character a starts here and ends here" and Brandon would have to make up everything in between. It is no where near as detailed as you claim above. Brandon has stated he had to create well over 50% of the material from scratch with almost no guidance.

Isnt that what he just did? That was far from robust... That is saying starts here, ends here in one sentence. How can it be less than that?

Wait what? Atheose implied each step was outlined. We know that wasn't even remotely the case and Brandon had to make large sections and how things happened up from scratch.

 

"I'm VERY confident that RJ outlined most of the last three books (especially the Last Battle), and Brandon just wrote the words"

I definitely didn't mean that every step was outlined, just the important parts. Like in the example I gave regarding Galad: Mat gives him the medallion, Galad loses to Demandred, but survives to give the medallion to Lan. Those are essentially the three things that matter, but leaves BOATLOADS of room for Brandon to need to fill-in for Galad. 

 

I find it very hard to believe that RJ wouldn't do a similar outline of the important parts of each character's arc for the final books. 

 

There are some things that I'm sure RJ outlined in great detail. That does not strike me as being one of them. Perhaps he wrote something about Lan killing Demandred, maybe. 

 

RJ had plenty of time before he died to jot down notes for whoever was going to finish the series after he died. And even if he didn't outline a lot of the steps in between, simply writing down how each character ends/dies seems to be a very obvious important thing to do. I'm sure RJ didn't have every detail planned, but it would take maybe two minutes to write a sentence or two about each character.

[Atheose]

He didn't.  Brandon wrote that scene.  The Lanfear/Perrin was probably outlined though.

 

Of course Brandon wrote it, my point is that I don't believe Brandon decided "Hey I'm going to have LAN fight Demandred and kill him with Sheath The Sword". Unless you have a source that I'm missing. 

 

I know that most of this is just speculation by all of us until we get specific quotes from Brandon. I just think people are using Brandon as a scapegoat for some events in the final book that they dislike, which I think were probably decided by RJ.

[Agitel]

 

He didn't.  Brandon wrote that scene.  The Lanfear/Perrin was probably outlined though.

 

Of course Brandon wrote it, my point is that I don't believe Brandon decided "Hey I'm going to have LAN fight Demandred and kill him with Sheath The Sword". Unless you have a source that I'm missing. 

 

I know that most of this is just speculation by all of us until we get specific quotes from Brandon. I just think people are using Brandon as a scapegoat for some events in the final book that they dislike, which I think were probably decided by RJ.

 

I'm largely positive about what Brandon has done. RJ may have left a note on that scene with Lan, but to be honest, from things that have been said, Brandon's had to make plenty of similar decisions and plotwork on his own based on his own notes after rereading the series.

[Atheose]

 

 

He didn't.  Brandon wrote that scene.  The Lanfear/Perrin was probably outlined though.

 

Of course Brandon wrote it, my point is that I don't believe Brandon decided "Hey I'm going to have LAN fight Demandred and kill him with Sheath The Sword". Unless you have a source that I'm missing. 

 

I know that most of this is just speculation by all of us until we get specific quotes from Brandon. I just think people are using Brandon as a scapegoat for some events in the final book that they dislike, which I think were probably decided by RJ.

 

I'm largely positive about what Brandon has done. RJ may have left a note on that scene with Lan, but to be honest, from things that have been said, Brandon's had to make plenty of similar decisions and plotwork on his own based on his own notes after rereading the series.

 

I'm reasonably new to Dragonmount so maybe that's been discussed a lot more before I got here... do you have any links to quotes like that? I'm not doubting what you say, it just seems like I'm out of the loop on a lot of interview stuff.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

He didn't.  Brandon wrote that scene.  The Lanfear/Perrin was probably outlined though.

 

Of course Brandon wrote it, my point is that I don't believe Brandon decided "Hey I'm going to have LAN fight Demandred and kill him with Sheath The Sword". Unless you have a source that I'm missing. 

 

I know that most of this is just speculation by all of us until we get specific quotes from Brandon. I just think people are using Brandon as a scapegoat for some events in the final book that they dislike, which I think were probably decided by RJ.

 

There is a source out there confirming from Brandon's own mouth that he thought up the Lan vs Demandred scene.  I dont know where to find it off the top of my head though.  I'm sure Terez can help you though she is the archive master for this kind of stuff.

[Atheose]

 

 

He didn't.  Brandon wrote that scene.  The Lanfear/Perrin was probably outlined though.

 

Of course Brandon wrote it, my point is that I don't believe Brandon decided "Hey I'm going to have LAN fight Demandred and kill him with Sheath The Sword". Unless you have a source that I'm missing. 

 

I know that most of this is just speculation by all of us until we get specific quotes from Brandon. I just think people are using Brandon as a scapegoat for some events in the final book that they dislike, which I think were probably decided by RJ.

 

There is a source out there confirming from Brandon's own mouth that he thought up the Lan vs Demandred scene.  I dont know where to find it off the top of my head though.  I'm sure Terez can help you though she is the archive master for this kind of stuff.

 

If that's true then I stand corrected. And, assuming that's true... that really disappoints me that RJ wouldn't write out what he wants to happen to Lan in the last book, especially since Lan is his pet character.

[Morden]

 

 

 

He didn't.  Brandon wrote that scene.  The Lanfear/Perrin was probably outlined though.

 

Of course Brandon wrote it, my point is that I don't believe Brandon decided "Hey I'm going to have LAN fight Demandred and kill him with Sheath The Sword". Unless you have a source that I'm missing. 

 

I know that most of this is just speculation by all of us until we get specific quotes from Brandon. I just think people are using Brandon as a scapegoat for some events in the final book that they dislike, which I think were probably decided by RJ.

 

There is a source out there confirming from Brandon's own mouth that he thought up the Lan vs Demandred scene.  I dont know where to find it off the top of my head though.  I'm sure Terez can help you though she is the archive master for this kind of stuff.

 

If that's true then I stand corrected. And, assuming that's true... that really disappoints me that RJ wouldn't write out what he wants to happen to Lan in the last book, especially since Lan is his pet character.

Thats generally what happens when your really ill, trying to get down as much detail as possible, its far too easy to forget what you have and havent written down, if he had been able to get all the details he had wanted, they wouldnt have needed Brandon, as Harriet would have probably been able to edit it all together.

 

There were massive swathes of the plot which needed filling.

[Atheose]

 

 

 

 

He didn't.  Brandon wrote that scene.  The Lanfear/Perrin was probably outlined though.

 

Of course Brandon wrote it, my point is that I don't believe Brandon decided "Hey I'm going to have LAN fight Demandred and kill him with Sheath The Sword". Unless you have a source that I'm missing. 

 

I know that most of this is just speculation by all of us until we get specific quotes from Brandon. I just think people are using Brandon as a scapegoat for some events in the final book that they dislike, which I think were probably decided by RJ.

 

There is a source out there confirming from Brandon's own mouth that he thought up the Lan vs Demandred scene.  I dont know where to find it off the top of my head though.  I'm sure Terez can help you though she is the archive master for this kind of stuff.

 

If that's true then I stand corrected. And, assuming that's true... that really disappoints me that RJ wouldn't write out what he wants to happen to Lan in the last book, especially since Lan is his pet character.

Thats generally what happens when your really ill, trying to get down as much detail as possible, its far too easy to forget what you have and havent written down, if he had been able to get all the details he had wanted, they wouldnt have needed Brandon, as Harriet would have probably been able to edit it all together.

 

There were massive swathes of the plot which needed filling.

 

I just can't imagine there not being notes on the important stuff. Sanderson said that there were few finished chapters, but lots of notes for aMoL:

 

https://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/18581181376

 

EDIT: disclaimer: there are probably tons of tweets and interviews where Brandon contradicts what he says above. I'm ignorant of most of what he's said regarding the notes left for him, so apologies in advance if I'm way off base here.

[Suttree]

Well yeah there was a ton of notes from over the years. The above has been subsequently clarified though in that they where no where near complete, very scattered and there was no "final outline". In fact Harriet had to compile one after his death and Jordan had only written around 200 pages worth of scenes to go in the books.

 

Additionally Brandon told us RJ's notes looke like this:

 

'Well, I am either going to do this, this, or this. I was thinking of this, but it could be this.'

[Mario Cole]

 

 

He didn't.  Brandon wrote that scene.  The Lanfear/Perrin was probably outlined though.

 

Of course Brandon wrote it, my point is that I don't believe Brandon decided "Hey I'm going to have LAN fight Demandred and kill him with Sheath The Sword". Unless you have a source that I'm missing. 

 

I know that most of this is just speculation by all of us until we get specific quotes from Brandon. I just think people are using Brandon as a scapegoat for some events in the final book that they dislike, which I think were probably decided by RJ.

 

There is a source out there confirming from Brandon's own mouth that he thought up the Lan vs Demandred scene.  I dont know where to find it off the top of my head though.  I'm sure Terez can help you though she is the archive master for this kind of stuff.

People should take what you say about who wrote what with massive amounts of salt since if you don't like it has to be Brandon's.

[MarkDiLillo]

People should take what you say about who wrote what with massive amounts of salt since if you don't like it has to be Brandon's.

 

Do you even read what you're replying to?

[Sarlic]

Brandon Sanderson just botched the ending to WoT so badly that he practically ensured no author will ever allow another to finish their series for them postumously again.  This is damn near a case study on failure.

 

It's comments like this that really make it difficult to take your critiques seriously.  It's ludicrous and entirely without merit. Nearly every post you make throws out some over-the-top criticism of Brandon.  I'm not saying that some of your criticisms aren't valid, because many are -- this book is flawed.  But I think had Brandon delivered an opus of surpassing beauty, you would find something to harp about.

 

About 200 pages ago in this thread, you went on and on and on about how Chapter 37 was "clearly" written by RJ because it was amazing, the best written portion of the book, felt like the Wheel of Time, and blah blah -- until someone call you out on this and actually pointed out the fact that RJ, in fact, *didn't* write it.

 

Your attitude about it immediately shifted.  "Oh yeah, I re-read it.  Clearly I was just reading too fast.  Definitely wasn't RJ."  Which later changed to, "It's great, but it's so great that it demonstrats BS didn't give a **** about the rest of the book and put no effort into anything." (My quotes are, of course, paraphrases)

 

You read this book with your mind already made up.  I think you lack the ability to make an objective criticism because you appear to have some sort of personal hate/rage directed at Brandon.  I think it's unfair to him.  I almost laughed out loud when I was reading the posts regarding your opinion of Chapter 37 because it highlighted your inability to be objective.

 

I don't know -- I don't know you, maybe I'm wrong, but I only have what I read here to develop an opinion.  I think many of your citicisms are unfair or rude, or just plain wrong.  You make too many assumptions about the effort that went in to writing these books, and about the process, about whether Brandon is lazy, or didn't care, or whatever.  It's ridiculous to make these kinds of statements.  Unfounded, and again, totally without merit or evidence.

 

And *yes* it's remarkable that Brandon was able to finish this series as well as he did because immersing yourself in someone else's world and delivering an ending that satisfies *most* people is impressive.  It wasn't flawless, but seems like the majority of readers are satisfied.

 

As am I.

[Sarlic]

And just as an aside -- I am only just seeing the exchange above between you and ElRandiachi, so I guess I'm not the only one that feels that way. (I will concede that the point being made is incorrect, as in this specific instance, you weren't being critical. :-) )

 

Anyway -- no offense, I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, I just wanted to point out that the never ending negativity and some of the more ludicrous comments make me have a hard time taking your critiques seriously.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

Brandon Sanderson just botched the ending to WoT so badly that he practically ensured no author will ever allow another to finish their series for them postumously again.  This is damn near a case study on failure.

 

It's comments like this that really make it difficult to take your critiques seriously.  It's ludicrous and entirely without merit. Nearly every post you make throws out some over-the-top criticism of Brandon.  I'm not saying that some of your criticisms aren't valid, because many are -- this book is flawed.  But I think had Brandon delivered an opus of surpassing beauty, you would find something to harp about.

 

About 200 pages ago in this thread, you went on and on and on about how Chapter 37 was "clearly" written by RJ because it was amazing, the best written portion of the book, felt like the Wheel of Time, and blah blah -- until someone call you out on this and actually pointed out the fact that RJ, in fact, *didn't* write it.

 

Your attitude about it immediately shifted.  "Oh yeah, I re-read it.  Clearly I was just reading too fast.  Definitely wasn't RJ."  Which later changed to, "It's great, but it's so great that it demonstrats BS didn't give a **** about the rest of the book and put no effort into anything." (My quotes are, of course, paraphrases)

 

You read this book with your mind already made up.  I think you lack the ability to make an objective criticism because you appear to have some sort of personal hate/rage directed at Brandon.  I think it's unfair to him.  I almost laughed out loud when I was reading the posts regarding your opinion of Chapter 37 because it highlighted your inability to be objective.

 

I don't know -- I don't know you, maybe I'm wrong, but I only have what I read here to develop an opinion.  I think many of your citicisms are unfair or rude, or just plain wrong.  You make too many assumptions about the effort that went in to writing these books, and about the process, about whether Brandon is lazy, or didn't care, or whatever.  It's ridiculous to make these kinds of statements.  Unfounded, and again, totally without merit or evidence.

 

And *yes* it's remarkable that Brandon was able to finish this series as well as he did because immersing yourself in someone else's world and delivering an ending that satisfies *most* people is impressive.  It wasn't flawless, but seems like the majority of readers are satisfied.

 

As am I.

 

Then ignore me.  I am not posting with the intent of making a professional critique, I have no interest in a literature career, and I do not care whatsoever what anyone else thinks of my opinions.  They are brash and they are raw and they are honest.  Others who frequent this place actually care about literature from a career standpoint and hence try to be professional in their critiques.  I have the luxury of not giving a ****.

 

I read chapter 37 and got excited and overreacted.  Someone correctly pointed out that I was wrong.  I spent a day cooling off and reading over the book some again and analyzing it and came to the conclusion that they were correct and I grossly jumped the gun.  I readily admitted this already.  I also readily admit that chapter 37 and thereabouts is well written and enjoyable to read.  I have held this opinion since the beginning and I continue to hold it.  Throughout all of my posts I hold that constant opinion, and furthermore if you had read some of my other posts I point towards chapter 37 as proof that Brandon did have the talent to finish aMoL properly, but instead gave us crap like the rest of the book.  As I said before, his own work betrays his sloppiness and lack of effort.

 

Brandon didn't do a remarkable job.  He did a piss poor job that is inexcusable when compared against what he is capable of.  You can have your own opinion, but nearly everyone who has given serious critiques of this book have agreed with me despite their inclinations to phrase it in a more professional and polite manner so don't try to frame me as being an aggressive minority.  I may be too aggressive in my critiques of Brandon for your liking, but I am far from alone in my opinions.

[MarkDiLillo]

And just as an aside -- I am only just seeing the exchange above between you and ElRandiachi, so I guess I'm not the only one that feels that way. (I will concede that the point being made is incorrect, as in this specific instance, you weren't being critical. :-) )

 

Anyway -- no offense, I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, I just wanted to point out that the never ending negativity and some of the more ludicrous comments make me have a hard time taking your critiques seriously.

 

Fair enough, but I am at the point where I am so disappointed with what I see in this last book that I'm past the point of trying to critique honestly.  The way I feel is that the guy gave such a poor effort in finishing this thing that he almost doesn't deserve an honest and professional critique anymore.  He received those, from much better critics than I, after the first two books.

 

The guy is capable of much better than what was released here and it pisses me off.

 

Anyways, no hard feelings - I'll disappear from the forums again soon.  Can only vent about aMoL for so long ;)

[Sarlic]

No worries mate, like I said, certainly not trying to pile on.  And I can respect your passion, as I have the same passion for this series (although I haven't frequented the forums all that long.)

 

My only point is that I don't think saying the book is the result of a "poor effort" is fair because, honestly, we really don't know what went on behind the scenes.  (I know some people around here do, or at least have an inkling, and I'd love to know more, but understand their hesitation in getting involved.)

 

I agree that Brandon is capable of better; there are portions of this book that I'm less satisfied with.  But I will also chalk up some of the problems as just another author trying to immerse himself in another author's world and just not getting it right.  (And I think in that instance, solely, a heavy reliance on editors is needed.)  As far as problems with clunky prose or the whole "show not tell" accusations, that's prose and should be corrected by the author, no doubt.

 

Me, personally, I was able to overlook these problems because the story, in my opinion, transcends the paper on which its written and the prose by which its written.  Maybe on a re-read some of these things will bother me a bit more, but I just don't think I can handle another re-read right now!  I can tell you that when I first read tGS, the first Mat chapter *really* knocked me out of the story because of the radical shift in Mat's tone.  But I took it in stride because, well -- it was that or nothing.

 

I can fully appreciate that some people can't get by that sort of thing.

 

Some might prefer the "nothing" as opposed to what we got, but I certainly didn't.

 

Anyway -- no hard feelings, just wanted to put out my perspective.  I see a lot of criticisms being leveled at Brandon (not just from you, you were just a convenient target because you'd responded to last post) that I don't think are fair, and I don't think many of them have evidence to fully support them. 

 

In any event, this thread is going in circles anyway.  The Wheel has turned in here many times -- Sutree, I need you to quote yourself about RJ's prose again!  :-)  (BTW -- a valid argument, but this thread is so big that the repetition is somewhat necessary.  I spent the last 2-3 days catching up on 20 pages of posts I missed!)

[MarkDiLillo]

Sarlic, let me ask you this:

 

Two of the major cliffhangers at the end of ToM were written in my Brandon.  1 - Moiraine's rescue and her importance for the last battle.  2 - Alanna's disappearance after having just opened Verin's letter.

 

Why do you think Verin's letters, what happened to Alanna, and what happened to Moiraine and what she learned (her 2 other wishes?) were totally excluded from this book?  Do you feel like it was the author's intentional decision to exclude these items entirely and not even mention them after they were written in as major cliffhangers to the previous book?

[Agitel]

The idea that Brandon gave such a poor effort in finishing this thing is just too much for me. ToM needed more revisions, I certainly agree. But the idea that this wasn't a tremendous effort on everyone's part and Brandon just slap-dashed this together as easily as he could . . . 

 

I would have loved it if, in preparation for this book, Brandon had spent half a decade rereading through the series, checking his notes, reviewing Jordan's notes, outlining and re-outlining the end before even starting to draft the manuscript. He of course did this on a much shorter time frame. But if he could have spent longer, participating anonymously in discussions here and on theoryland (though that risks contamination) to familiarize himself with everything on the same level as the dedicated who've reread the series a few times over the past ten or twenty years and spent nearly as long discussing every detail. In some ways, the series did deserve that. I feel that is the only way that Brandon could have written this "as well as he could have" and up to the standards many are asking (again, there are some things, like further revision of ToM, that definitely could have been done, but that isn't just Brandon). But I feel that would be unreasonable to ask of any author. The series suffered some for the lack of such involvement, but I don't think it's fair to call it a "poor effort." I'm not saying that Brandon has crafted the most wonderful end to the series ever, but I do feel that what he's done is an accomplishment given the timeframe. Perhaps I didn't set my expectations as high as some. There's no hard way to judge what the "right" expectations were. I made my own based on my understanding of what was being done. They'd have been higher if the project had been delayed longer.

 

I know others either don't feel that such an extended time frame should have been necessary or that they should be faulted for not taking as much time as it needed. I disagree with both.

*shrugs*

[Agitel]

Sarlic, let me ask you this:

 

Two of the major cliffhangers at the end of ToM were written in my Brandon.  1 - Moiraine's rescue and her importance for the last battle.  2 - Alanna's disappearance after having just opened Verin's letter.

 

Why do you think Verin's letters, what happened to Alanna, and what happened to Moiraine and what she learned (her 2 other wishes?) were totally excluded from this book?  Do you feel like it was the author's intentional decision to exclude these items entirely and not even mention them after they were written in as major cliffhangers to the previous book?

 

I need to review the Alanna letter situation again. As for Moiraine's wishes, I don't think Jordan would have given us everything, either. I don't think that's a lapse on Brandon's part. Harriet may even have put her foot down on that one. I'm wondering if "Wait for the Light" comes from one of the answers to the questions Moiraine asked, though.

[MarkDiLillo]

The idea that Brandon gave such a poor effort in finishing this thing is just too much for me. ToM needed more revisions, I certainly agree. But the idea that this wasn't a tremendous effort on everyone's part and Brandon just slap-dashed this together as easily as he could . . . 

 

I would have loved it if, in preparation for this book, Brandon had spent half a decade rereading through the series, checking his notes, reviewing Jordan's notes, outlining and re-outlining the end before even starting to draft the manuscript. He of course did this on a much shorter time frame. But if he could have spent longer, participating anonymously in discussions here and on theoryland (though that risks contamination) to familiarize himself with everything on the same level as the dedicated who've reread the series a few times over the past ten or twenty years and spent nearly as long discussing every detail. In some ways, the series did deserve that. I feel that is the only way that Brandon could have written this "as well as he could have" and up to the standards many are asking (again, there are some things, like further revision of ToM, that definitely could have been done, but that isn't just Brandon). But I feel that would be unreasonable to ask of any author. The series suffered some for the lack of such involvement, but I don't think it's fair to call it a "poor effort." I'm not saying that Brandon has crafted the most wonderful end to the series ever, but I do feel that what he's done is an accomplishment given the timeframe. Perhaps I didn't set my expectations as high as some. There's no hard way to judge what the "right" expectations were. I made my own based on my understanding of what was being done. They'd have been higher if the project had been delayed longer.

 

I know others either don't feel that such an extended time frame should have been necessary or that they should be faulted for not taking as much time as it needed. I disagree with both.

 

*shrugs*

 

See Agitel, I look at it differently.  This is his career and profession.  He got paid to finish this series directly and through the form of the notoriety being a huge boon toawrds his personal books.

 

Why are there plot holes that are completely unaddressed?  Why are there such blatant contradictions to the previous 11 books?  I look at this from a managers perspective and judge the guy fairly on the gaping pits in his work.  On the job, if someone turned in work to me that just simply didn't address major themes of a project or completely contradicted previous work we had done...well do you think I should just say "hey good job, you tried hard!"  That's not how the world works.  I would kick their ass (figuratively) and tell them to go back and fix it, and then ask what they were possibly thinking handing me something like that.  In this case, we're looking at the final product here.  And it should have been much better IMO.

[MauricXe]

^^Perhaps your anger should be at Team jordan and not so much BS?

[Agitel]

 

The idea that Brandon gave such a poor effort in finishing this thing is just too much for me. ToM needed more revisions, I certainly agree. But the idea that this wasn't a tremendous effort on everyone's part and Brandon just slap-dashed this together as easily as he could . . . 

 

I would have loved it if, in preparation for this book, Brandon had spent half a decade rereading through the series, checking his notes, reviewing Jordan's notes, outlining and re-outlining the end before even starting to draft the manuscript. He of course did this on a much shorter time frame. But if he could have spent longer, participating anonymously in discussions here and on theoryland (though that risks contamination) to familiarize himself with everything on the same level as the dedicated who've reread the series a few times over the past ten or twenty years and spent nearly as long discussing every detail. In some ways, the series did deserve that. I feel that is the only way that Brandon could have written this "as well as he could have" and up to the standards many are asking (again, there are some things, like further revision of ToM, that definitely could have been done, but that isn't just Brandon). But I feel that would be unreasonable to ask of any author. The series suffered some for the lack of such involvement, but I don't think it's fair to call it a "poor effort." I'm not saying that Brandon has crafted the most wonderful end to the series ever, but I do feel that what he's done is an accomplishment given the timeframe. Perhaps I didn't set my expectations as high as some. There's no hard way to judge what the "right" expectations were. I made my own based on my understanding of what was being done. They'd have been higher if the project had been delayed longer.

 

I know others either don't feel that such an extended time frame should have been necessary or that they should be faulted for not taking as much time as it needed. I disagree with both.

 

*shrugs*

 

See Agitel, I look at it differently.  This is his career and profession.  He got paid to finish this series directly and through the form of the notoriety being a huge boon toawrds his personal books.

 

Why are there plot holes that are completely unaddressed?  Why are there such blatant contradictions to the previous 11 books?  I look at this from a managers perspective and judge the guy fairly on the gaping pits in his work.  On the job, if someone turned in work to me that just simply didn't address major themes of a project or completely contradicted previous work we had done...well do you think I should just say "hey good job, you tried hard!"  That's not how the world works.  I would kick their ass (figuratively) and tell them to go back and fix it, and then ask what they were possibly thinking handing me something like that.  In this case, we're looking at the final product here.  And it should have been much better IMO.

 

And I look at this as a manager who needs a project done by a deadline, when suddenly the project lead who's been heading the project dies with less than a week to go. You need the project finished by the date, and you can't reasonably expect the next guy in line to be entirely up to speed by the time period. Expectations for the project are lowered. It's not that you don't have any, mind, but you're willing to accept some sacrifices to get it done. If it was the original project lead you'd have expected better. If you had more time left you'd expect something better. But if the next guy can finish the project in a reasonable manner, then you're okay with that, considering the circumstances.

 

Some continuity errors are expected. Jordan made a few himself. I'm not sure I saw any major plot holes. People misuse that term a lot, anyway.