Quality Discussion Thread

[The Wolf]

All in all, I think if the plot points and story arcs had been wrapped up adequately then the critics would be mostly quieted and our complaints would only be acknowledged amongst the serious core fans.  The plot and story arcs that were left unersolved or hastily finished is what hurts the series the most.

I may be incorrect about this, but I am assuming that many of the hasty wrap up were due to holes in the notes Jordan left.  I believe these books were supposed to demonstrate Jordan's vision with Sanderson only filling in when he had to,  Unless we get to see the notes, well never really know the answer.  

[MarkDiLillo]

 

All in all, I think if the plot points and story arcs had been wrapped up adequately then the critics would be mostly quieted and our complaints would only be acknowledged amongst the serious core fans.  The plot and story arcs that were left unersolved or hastily finished is what hurts the series the most.

I may be incorrect about this, but I am assuming that many of the hasty wrap up were due to holes in the notes Jordan left.  I believe these books were supposed to demonstrate Jordan's vision with Sanderson only filling in when he had to,  Unless we get to see the notes, well never really know the answer.  

 

I disagree with you entirely.  The hastily wrapped up plots and holes that were left are a fault of Brandon.  An example of a hastily wrapped up plot is Alanna.  Brandon intentionally left that as a cliffhanger for us in the last book, but she was just dropped in there at the end.  Notes do not restrict Brandon from writing more to make the transition of Alanna in the Stone of Tear to Alanna in the Pit of Doom seem natural and organic.  Nothing stopped Brandon from writing a couple other scenes to show the readers what happened and how she got into that predicament.  Let's take another look at a hastily wrapped up bit.  The Darkhounds and mysterious Wolf Heroes.  Suddenly Darkhounds were just running around Shayol Ghul almost as an afterthought.  Why weren't they brought up earlier?  A couple sentences in Perrin's PoV earlier on about the wolves seeing Darkhounds massing for the final confrontation could have gone miles towards solving this.  Instead, we just have a casual "oh and there are darkhounds here....oh and also there are hero ghost wolves here too.  weird."

 

RJ left notes.  He did not leave a detailed outline that dictated what happened scene from scene.  I feel like this is a big misunderstanding that a lot of readers have.

 

Do you really think that he left in his notes a specific note that said "Do not reveal, or even talk about, the contents of Verin's letters to Galad or Alanna."  Or "Do not even discuss or talk about Moiraine's three wishes in the Finn-world.  And also ignore Lanfears wishes as well."

 

Most of these faults are on Brandon Sanderson.  Maybe all of them.  The only thing you can fault RJ for in the last book is the Epilogue and whether or not specific characters lived or died.  Beyond that, we would need more details on notes left to see who is at fault with specific plot turns that we dont like.

[Mr. Micawber]

All in all, I think if the plot points and story arcs had been wrapped up adequately then the critics would be mostly quieted and our complaints would only be acknowledged amongst the serious core fans.  The plot and story arcs that were left unersolved or hastily finished is what hurts the series the most.

I may be incorrect about this, but I am assuming that many of the hasty wrap up were due to holes in the notes Jordan left.  I believe these books were supposed to demonstrate Jordan's vision with Sanderson only filling in when he had to,  Unless we get to see the notes, well never really know the answer.  

 

I disagree with you entirely.  The hastily wrapped up plots and holes that were left are a fault of Brandon.  An example of a hastily wrapped up plot is Alanna.  Brandon intentionally left that as a cliffhanger for us in the last book, but she was just dropped in there at the end.  Notes do not restrict Brandon from writing more to make the transition of Alanna in the Stone of Tear to Alanna in the Pit of Doom seem natural and organic.  Nothing stopped Brandon from writing a couple other scenes to show the readers what happened and how she got into that predicament.  Let's take another look at a hastily wrapped up bit.  The Darkhounds and mysterious Wolf Heroes.  Suddenly Darkhounds were just running around Shayol Ghul almost as an afterthought.  Why weren't they brought up earlier?  A couple sentences in Perrin's PoV earlier on about the wolves seeing Darkhounds massing for the final confrontation could have gone miles towards solving this.  Instead, we just have a casual "oh and there are darkhounds here....oh and also there are hero ghost wolves here too.  weird."

 

RJ left notes.  He did not leave a detailed outline that dictated what happened scene from scene.  I feel like this is a big misunderstanding that a lot of readers have.

 

Do you really think that he left in his notes a specific note that said "Do not reveal, or even talk about, the contents of Verin's letters to Galad or Alanna."  Or "Do not even discuss or talk about Moiraine's three wishes in the Finn-world.  And also ignore Lanfears wishes as well."

 

Most of these faults are on Brandon Sanderson.  Maybe all of them.  The only thing you can fault RJ for in the last book is the Epilogue and whether or not specific characters lived or died.  Beyond that, we would need more details on notes left to see who is at fault with specific plot turns that we dont like.

 

 

Exactly. Brandon spent time on shit that interested him, and then threw some deaths or nondeaths in like Jordan wanted

[John Everyman]

 

 

All in all, I think if the plot points and story arcs had been wrapped up adequately then the critics would be mostly quieted and our complaints would only be acknowledged amongst the serious core fans.  The plot and story arcs that were left unersolved or hastily finished is what hurts the series the most.

I may be incorrect about this, but I am assuming that many of the hasty wrap up were due to holes in the notes Jordan left.  I believe these books were supposed to demonstrate Jordan's vision with Sanderson only filling in when he had to,  Unless we get to see the notes, well never really know the answer.  

 

I disagree with you entirely.  The hastily wrapped up plots and holes that were left are a fault of Brandon.  An example of a hastily wrapped up plot is Alanna.  Brandon intentionally left that as a cliffhanger for us in the last book, but she was just dropped in there at the end.  Notes do not restrict Brandon from writing more to make the transition of Alanna in the Stone of Tear to Alanna in the Pit of Doom seem natural and organic.  Nothing stopped Brandon from writing a couple other scenes to show the readers what happened and how she got into that predicament.  Let's take another look at a hastily wrapped up bit.  The Darkhounds and mysterious Wolf Heroes.  Suddenly Darkhounds were just running around Shayol Ghul almost as an afterthought.  Why weren't they brought up earlier?  A couple sentences in Perrin's PoV earlier on about the wolves seeing Darkhounds massing for the final confrontation could have gone miles towards solving this.  Instead, we just have a casual "oh and there are darkhounds here....oh and also there are hero ghost wolves here too.  weird."

 

RJ left notes.  He did not leave a detailed outline that dictated what happened scene from scene.  I feel like this is a big misunderstanding that a lot of readers have.

 

Do you really think that he left in his notes a specific note that said "Do not reveal, or even talk about, the contents of Verin's letters to Galad or Alanna."  Or "Do not even discuss or talk about Moiraine's three wishes in the Finn-world.  And also ignore Lanfears wishes as well."

 

Most of these faults are on Brandon Sanderson.  Maybe all of them.  The only thing you can fault RJ for in the last book is the Epilogue and whether or not specific characters lived or died.  Beyond that, we would need more details on notes left to see who is at fault with specific plot turns that we dont like.

 

The thing about Alanna is that I'm almost positive all of the scenes in Shayol Ghul were written by Robert Jordan.  If I'm correct, that would cover all scenes in which Alanna appears.  That leaves very little room to "build up" her eventual appearance, especially since her disappearance was played up as mysterious.  I suppose he could have dropped some hints that Moridin had taken her, or perhaps have given Alanna a brief POV, but it's debatable how effective this would have really been. 

[MarkDiLillo]

Nah I dont think any of the SG scenes were RJ.  Brandon is pretty open in saying that we aren't reading RJ until the Epilogue (minus the brief Cads PoV).  The Epilogue really does read like a breath of fresh air too.  The last scene with Rand is beautifully written even if its not what we all wanted to happen story-wise.

[Axon]

 

That said, I've never understood the notion that Robert Jordan is himself a master of the written word. 

For the record has anyone been saying this? People need to be realistic about Jordan as well, he was an upper tier fantasy writer for his time. Unfortunately though these last few WoT books have fallen well behind the curve for what is "upper tier" fantasy these days.

 

Also question, you said you're concerned with plot above all. Where you satisfied then with how that was handled these last few books? I would not say plot work was a strength in the slightest.  It is all too often blunt and the execution was frequently flawed. When taking the three books as a whole the structural issues stand out quite clearly as well.

 

I agree.  While RJ was good, no one is saying he's the greatest prose-man of all time.  But he's better than Brandon, at least in the context of this series.   Brandon's dialogue drives me nuts; it reads how college kids from the year 2013 talk.  I expected Elayne to break out an "lol" in there.   

[MarkDiLillo]

I've always thought that RJ's strength was in conveying the inner thoughts and PoV of characters to the reader.  Maybe the technicalities of his prose are not amongst the best authors, but I've never read a book where I consistently felt so connected to the characters as WoT.  RJ had me believe they were real despite the circumstances of their story being totally unreal.  That is really one of the major obstacles that Brandon had trouble with because he is a very different style author in that sense.  He writes likes a Michael Bay stlye director.  Lots of action and events and all of it building up to a particular climax scene.  RJ was more of a character development expert.  He could literally write about Mat spending a night in a tavern playing cards and it would be a great read.

 

There is no question in my mind that had RJ been able to finish the last book there would be far less action and far more scenes like the Tam vs Rand.

[John Everyman]

Nah I dont think any of the SG scenes were RJ.  Brandon is pretty open in saying that we aren't reading RJ until the Epilogue (minus the brief Cads PoV).  The Epilogue really does read like a breath of fresh air too.  The last scene with Rand is beautifully written even if its not what we all wanted to happen story-wise.

 

It might be somewhat bold to say all of the SG scenes were RJ, but I at least got the impression that the contest of wills between Rand the DO were RJ.  At least, if I was in his place, I know for sure that I'd write the final confrontation if I knew someone was going to continue my work. 

 

For Alanna, I think Brandon was playing up the mystery angle, but due to the rushed nature it came off as really anti-climactic and unnecessary. 

 

On the epilogue, I'm mixed.  I loved a lot of it, but I instantly noticed that Nynaeve became more annoying and confrontational (understandable, though, considering Rand was dying ), and that Rand went back to having some cringe worthy thoughts about his women.  That said, I will agree that the last few paragraphs were beautiful.

 

I suppose my impression of the epilogue echoes my feelings towards RJ and BS as writers; RJ is definitely the better and more well rounded writer, and has more clearly defined strengths than BS, but his faults annoy me more than Brandon Sanderson's faults. 

[Mr Ares]

I think the first time RJ said 3 more books we got 6 more.... so obivously that 1 more book had to mean 2 or 3 more. ;)

I wish people would bother to read what RJ actually said - he frequently said things like "at least X more books", then with CoT he said "probably 2 more". The only time he said for damn sure how many were left was with KoD. He never said three more books.

 

 Reverse balefire (the Flame?  Seriously?)?! 

I hereby rename that weave baleice - because even that is a less rubbish name. Let  us speak no more of "the Flame of Tar Valon".

 

 

I created an account just so I could post my two cents worth on this thread.

 

Overall, I enjoyed the book and I give BS a lot of passes because I'm just so happy that the series was able to be completed, even if it wasn't done perfectly.

 

However.

 

The one thing that was incredibly jarring in this was the blatant mentions of sex.  I am not a prude by any means, it's just that Robert Jordan handled it a lot more gracefully.  Very fade to black.  In this book particularly, it was so much more obvious.  Avi saying, "You will bed me now."  I won't even get into Avi acting rather like a giggly-girl the morning after as she sneaks up on Rand to throw her arms around him for a kiss.  Then there was Rand mentioning that at least "this time I don't have to worry about freezing my bits off."  Jebus, that right there *shakes head*  Mat and Tuon naked right there in the garden.  It all felt very fanficcy.  If I wanted to read fanfic, I wouldn't have spent money on the book; I'd just go to fanfic.net or something.

 

Another thing:  Min.

 

Rand was going around having his swan songs with all the other major characters and there was NOTHING between him and Min.  I understand that they had been together for the last hundred books or whatever, but still, not even a goodbye scene between those two?  In fact, Min was hardly in the first half of the book other than to say something along the lines of, "Oh Rand, you look so sad."  And something else along the lines of, "That sucks."  (An exaggerated quote, not an actual one).  Then, bam, she's with Mat and Tuon right after Siuan's "blink and you miss it" death.

 

The head hopping drove me insane.  I said outloud, multiple times, "Those symbols at the beginning of the chapter used to mean something, you know."  If there were dice, you knew it was a Mat chapter.  If there was a wolf, you knew it was a stupid Perrin chapter (I don't like Perrin.  Never liked Perrin.  I really really wished Perrin would have died messily, along with his awful, AWFUL wife).  Instead the chapters had those symbols and all it guranteed was that Mat would PROBABLY have a PoV bit in there, somewhere.  I get that during The Last Battle chapter it would have been impossible to restrict it to one character's PoV and I would have given it a pass.  For THAT chapter.  But other than that, it drove me nuts.

 

People have mentioned the more casual way the characters talked and I found myself nodding in agreement.  And then the word "tempest."  Gawd.  I find it ironic that there was a PoV section of Thom trying to find the right words to describe the last battle when obviously BS was struggling with the same issue.

 

All in all it wasn't terrible.  I know BS did what he could and it's impossible to emulate someone else's writing style (which he outright said he wasn't going to do anyway).  It's just...Jebus, he could have at least tried to be consistent with how the world was portrayed :/

 

ETA:  I know there are a lot of complaints that the epilogue was very abrupt and that we have no glimpse of how things will be in the future.  I wish there could have been as well.  However, whenever a series does that (Harry Potter and Hunger Games comes directly to mind) people throw fits over it.  Fits that things are wrapped up too nicely.  People they don't like together ended up together.  "Lol, Katpee (Katniss/Peeta's awful ship name) babies!"  So in a way, Team Jordan was kind of "Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't" in that respect.  Far better to speculate for many years to come rather than have everything set in stone.

 

I dont think it's ironic that there was that Thom chapter.  It seems like it is a trait of Brandon's to do things like that intentionally.

Unfortunately, with Thom it merely highlighted the problem with Sanderson's writing - he isn't willing to take the time to find that pefect word, and will just use the first one that comes to hand. No matter how many times he has used it before.

Look at the duel scene between Rand and Tam.  After learning in a Q&A session that Brandon wrote himself into the story as the sword he gave Tam, it seems clear to me that the entire scene was designed to show how Brandon feels he has a lot left to learn from RJ.  And then take a look at the Cadsuane scene where she says she wishes she knew what Rand had planned with the Black Tower.  That is very clearly Brandon writing to tell the readers that RJ gave him no clues or notes whatsoever on how the whole Black Tower fiasco should have ended or played out.

So he should make up an ending.

 

 

I'll go out on a limb, and probably will get flamed on this board, and say that I liked what BS did with the last three novels.  I felt that RJ's writing was getting turgid, and the plots were going stale.  I, a long time fan from '92, who has reread the series at least a dozen times, was starting to get tired of how things were dragging out.

 

CoT was really a huge letdown; I was disappointed by books 7-9, but 10 really was a problem.  KoD was an improvement, but I think that if Jordan had remained healthy it would have still taken him at least five books to finish everything.  BS took what he was given and wrapped things up nicely in three.  I like what he did with the characters; and I'm glad that all of the friends that I've spent twenty years with have been given a good ending.  I think he did a very good job overall, and I'm glad that it is complete.

CoT is the book where it spent the entire time describing the AS staring off into the distance while the Taint was being cleansed, right?  The one that didn't move ANYTHING forward (and if that was the one where Wolf Boy saved his awful wife, I don't count that.  It was a completely pointless plotline for two very pointless characters)?  If I'm remembering it correctly (I haven't done the massive re-read of the series that I should have prior to this book) then I remember being really pissed off at RJ thinking that I had wasted two years of my life waiting in anticipation for a book that really accomplished nothing.  And, IIRC, Rand was only mentioned, in passing, on one of the last pages of the book :/

 

With that in mind, when BS took over for the series and in the Prologue of TGS, when the Prophet was killed, I remember being incredibly satisfied.  As I said to my husband and friends, "Holy cow!  Stuff FINALLY happened!  There was actual RESOLUTION!  No!  FOR REAL! I'm not lying!"  Ever since then, I gave BS a pass.

 

I did have a few beefs with BS, and I mentioned them in an earlier post a couple pages back.  But, overall, I think he did a pretty good job.

The idea of being satisfied with stuff finally happening in TGS would make more sense if there wasn't a book between those two - KoD. That had Galad killing Valda in the prologue, and the Domani under Ituralde beginning the fightback against the Seanchan. He made a lot of progress with Egwene's rise to power within the WT, in only one chapter (both of that and Ituralde were covered at greater length by Brandon). Perrin rescued Faile, and broke the Shaido finishing that plotline. Mat was reunited with the Band, and married Tuon. Rand met Semi, lost his hand, destroyed an army of Trollocs. Plenty happened between CoT and TGS.

 

Part of the problem is that RJ, while he did have plenty of scenes which could have been a bit shorter, could also convey information far more concisely, without losing anything. As I said, RJ took one chapter of KoD and made significant progress with Egwene. Brandon took a lot more to finish off her storyline - under him, it became more bloated. RJ could, at times, do things with great efficiency. The fighting in the last book suffered from being overly long. It was a grind, a slog. Some of it was justified, some of it was just sword and army porn. I tdon't imagine that RJ would have taken as long as Brandon did over many of these plots and scenes if he had written the last book. I think that if RJ hadn't died, three books would not have happened, and I think that even one book, while unlikely, was still within the bounds of possibility - Brandon wrote a lot more than RJ would have done. Part of the difference between the two authors comes in how they get their books to the length they do. And RJ, when he wanted to, could write far more efficiently that Sanderson does. And so the books became more bloated under the latter than they would have done under RJ.

[jjstraka34]

Maybe it's just the way it is constructed, or hell, maybe it's just the quote from Loial's future book that kicks it off, but Chapter 37 just feels totally different than the rest of the book that came before it. I have a hard time believing that RJ didn't write most of it.

 

The main problem (aside from the almost lunatic pace) is that Sanderson has no idea how to write most of these characters. Moraine was good at the end of TOM, but here she is behaving totally out of character, like a smirking demi-god that has just shown up for the hell of it. And how can we NOT learn what her other two demands were, especially when you consider how little she is given to actually do. Mat isn't so bad, since making a scoundrel a little more "rogue-ish" isn't really a problem. But the Perrin stuff (especially with Lanfear) is cringe-worthy at times. Where exactly does Perrin get all his expertise about the Forsaken?? The gateway-hopping is already getting completely out of hand by about page 250, and while I understand the reality of the world is that everyone can now do this, it is simply used as a deus ex machina to allow Rand to run off a checklist of things he needs to complete before heading to Shayol Ghul. When it comes to the first part of the book, I've seen more subtlety in a Grisham novel. 

[Suttree]

Part of the problem is that RJ, while he did have plenty of scenes which could have been a bit shorter, could also convey information far more concisely, without losing anything. As I said, RJ took one chapter of KoD and made significant progress with Egwene. Brandon took a lot more to finish off her storyline - under him, it became more bloated. RJ could, at times, do things with great efficiency. The fighting in the last book suffered from being overly long. It was a grind, a slog. Some of it was justified, some of it was just sword and army porn. I tdon't imagine that RJ would have taken as long as Brandon did over many of these plots and scenes if he had written the last book. I think that if RJ hadn't died, three books would not have happened, and I think that even one book, while unlikely, was still within the bounds of possibility - Brandon wrote a lot more than RJ would have done. Part of the difference between the two authors comes in how they get their books to the length they do. And RJ, when he wanted to, could write far more efficiently that Sanderson does. And so the books became more bloated under the latter than they would have done under RJ.

Indeed. Jordan was very adept at using ellipsis, something that Brandon for whatever reason did not use all that often. Although when he did, the results were usually worse.

[Treebeard]

/..:/ And so the books became more bloated under the latter than they would have done under RJ.

could we begin using " probably" or some other word that dose´t specifies that RJ per automatic would write it ( amol ) in the way we would expect  ( not that i am doubting that but all they same ) . it would save us some very irritating and endlessly repeating discussions

[MarkDiLillo]

Maybe it's just the way it is constructed, or hell, maybe it's just the quote from Loial's future book that kicks it off, but Chapter 37 just feels totally different than the rest of the book that came before it. I have a hard time believing that RJ didn't write most of it.

 

The main problem (aside from the almost lunatic pace) is that Sanderson has no idea how to write most of these characters. Moraine was good at the end of TOM, but here she is behaving totally out of character, like a smirking demi-god that has just shown up for the hell of it. And how can we NOT learn what her other two demands were, especially when you consider how little she is given to actually do. Mat isn't so bad, since making a scoundrel a little more "rogue-ish" isn't really a problem. But the Perrin stuff (especially with Lanfear) is cringe-worthy at times. Where exactly does Perrin get all his expertise about the Forsaken?? The gateway-hopping is already getting completely out of hand by about page 250, and while I understand the reality of the world is that everyone can now do this, it is simply used as a deus ex machina to allow Rand to run off a checklist of things he needs to complete before heading to Shayol Ghul. When it comes to the first part of the book, I've seen more subtlety in a Grisham novel. 

 

I had the same feelings about Chapter 37, but when I go back and look through it...it is definitely mostly Brandon.  The few scenes RJ worked on that weren't part of the Epilogue may have been thrown in there, or maybe the outline was more detailed here, or maybe Brandon just did a great job.  But it was mostly, if not all, BS writing.  This simple fact is why I lost respect for the guy and his work on WoT.  It proves that he did have the talents to do a lot better job.  If only he spent as much time on the rest of the book as he did on chapter 37...

[John Everyman]

 As I said, RJ took one chapter of KoD and made significant progress with Egwene. Brandon took a lot more to finish off her storyline - under him, it became more bloated. RJ could, at times, do things with great efficiency. The fighting in the last book suffered from being overly long. It was a grind, a slog. Some of it was justified, some of it was just sword and army porn. I tdon't imagine that RJ would have taken as long as Brandon did over many of these plots and scenes if he had written the last book. I think that if RJ hadn't died, three books would not have happened, and I think that even one book, while unlikely, was still within the bounds of possibility - Brandon wrote a lot more than RJ would have done. Part of the difference between the two authors comes in how they get their books to the length they do. And RJ, when he wanted to, could write far more efficiently that Sanderson does. And so the books became more bloated under the latter than they would have done under RJ.

 

It is worth noting that the one Egwene chapter is nearly fourty pages long, and even then, it's mostly a setup for what is to come. 

 

I do agree that some of Brandon's writing has a "bloated" sense to it, but I'd say the same for RJ (though really I'd say the same for the vast majority of fantasy writers, though I can think of some notable exceptions).  I think the difference is that Robert Jordan showed he could be brief, even in action scenes.  For example, Dumai Wells is barely thirty pages long, yet the impression it leaves would make one think it's a lot longer.  Of course, you also have him veering in the exact opposite direction, with Crossroads of Twilight being the obvious offender.  Some of the other books of the series, such as A Crown of Swords and The Path of Daggers, also suffer from some fairly serious structural issues.  And while I may be alone in this one, I actually feel that The Eye of the World features some of Jordan's worst pacing; to steal a quote from a friend, "it's hard to imagine that such a simple and familiar story takes so long to tell". 

 

In principle, I have no problem with the final book of a series that has been building up for an Earth shattering, apocalyptic war being mostly battles.  I just really wish there would have been more character moments strewn throughout.  WOT has never been military fantasy, and it becoming just that out of the blue was a little jarring. 

 

 

 

Maybe it's just the way it is constructed, or hell, maybe it's just the quote from Loial's future book that kicks it off, but Chapter 37 just feels totally different than the rest of the book that came before it. I have a hard time believing that RJ didn't write most of it.

 

The main problem (aside from the almost lunatic pace) is that Sanderson has no idea how to write most of these characters. Moraine was good at the end of TOM, but here she is behaving totally out of character, like a smirking demi-god that has just shown up for the hell of it. And how can we NOT learn what her other two demands were, especially when you consider how little she is given to actually do. Mat isn't so bad, since making a scoundrel a little more "rogue-ish" isn't really a problem. But the Perrin stuff (especially with Lanfear) is cringe-worthy at times. Where exactly does Perrin get all his expertise about the Forsaken?? The gateway-hopping is already getting completely out of hand by about page 250, and while I understand the reality of the world is that everyone can now do this, it is simply used as a deus ex machina to allow Rand to run off a checklist of things he needs to complete before heading to Shayol Ghul. When it comes to the first part of the book, I've seen more subtlety in a Grisham novel. 

 

 

Wow... we didn't learn about Moiraine's demands, did we?  That annoys me.  Now I've gone from hoping River of Souls features Moiraine to all but demanding it.

[Mr. Micawber]

Mr. Ares described this correctly. People here are lavishing wildly undeserved praise on 37. It was not a great scene, it was sword and army porn. I expect a hell of a lot more out of this series than that kind of fanboy shit

[MarkDiLillo]

Mr. Ares described this correctly. People here are lavishing wildly undeserved praise on 37. It was not a great scene, it was sword and army porn. I expect a hell of a lot more out of this series than that kind of fanboy shit

 

Eh, the bits with Rand, Lan, Olver, and the horn all coming together at the same time were well done.  Some of it was well written too.  I find myself wondering if RJ wrote some of the Olver scenes.  The climax with the horn and everything is really what I refer to what I'm thinking a well written chapter.  The parts with Egwene and some of the rest are pretty standard Brandon writing, but its filled with action so his weaknesses with characters aren't as evident.

[jjstraka34]

 

Part of the problem is that RJ, while he did have plenty of scenes which could have been a bit shorter, could also convey information far more concisely, without losing anything. As I said, RJ took one chapter of KoD and made significant progress with Egwene. Brandon took a lot more to finish off her storyline - under him, it became more bloated. RJ could, at times, do things with great efficiency. The fighting in the last book suffered from being overly long. It was a grind, a slog. Some of it was justified, some of it was just sword and army porn. I tdon't imagine that RJ would have taken as long as Brandon did over many of these plots and scenes if he had written the last book. I think that if RJ hadn't died, three books would not have happened, and I think that even one book, while unlikely, was still within the bounds of possibility - Brandon wrote a lot more than RJ would have done. Part of the difference between the two authors comes in how they get their books to the length they do. And RJ, when he wanted to, could write far more efficiently that Sanderson does. And so the books became more bloated under the latter than they would have done under RJ.

 

This I disagree with, while Jordan made great progress with KoD, he could not have wrapped this up in one or two books. Three maybe, but I'd lean toward five. Take for instance Rand's peace with Seanchan. Never in a million years would Jordan have allowed this to become a 3 page scene in which Rand strolls in off the street, Mat whispers a few good words in Tuon's ear, and a conflict that has been going on since book two is wrapped up with handshake. It was almost insulting, taking all the problems with the meeting at the Field of Merrilor and cranking it up to 100. 

 

 

 

I had the same feelings about Chapter 37, but when I go back and look through it...it is definitely mostly Brandon.  The few scenes RJ worked on that weren't part of the Epilogue may have been thrown in there, or maybe the outline was more detailed here, or maybe Brandon just did a great job.  But it was mostly, if not all, BS writing.  This simple fact is why I lost respect for the guy and his work on WoT.  It proves that he did have the talents to do a lot better job.  If only he spent as much time on the rest of the book as he did on chapter 37...

Very possibly true, also the fact that the outline here might have been MUCH more detailed. You could feel the weight of everything and knew that no one was safe. It saved the book and the series.

[MarkDiLillo]

I wouldnt say that it saved the book and series, but it ceratinly saved the book from being a laughing stock that is universally despised by even the most casual reader.

[Suttree]

As for how many books with all the filler and bloat in these last three Jordan certainly could have finished it in less. It could and should have been done in 1 book, 2 WH sized volumes. Not sure how that can even be a question after AMoL.

 

Recall Brandon did not want to split it into three either and this causes massive structural issues. RJ knew where he was going after KoD and he knew what it would take to finish.

[Treebeard]

Mr. Ares described this correctly. People here are lavishing wildly undeserved praise on 37. It was not a great scene, it was sword and army porn. I expect a hell of a lot more out of this series than that kind of fanboy shit

that wording is not justified  . What do you think the last battle should be about , a chat about moral and silk  ????

[MarkDiLillo]

I feel pretty strongly that it needed to be at least two books (whether 1 book, 2 volumes, or 2 separate books doesnt matter to me) simply because Rand needed a full volume to descend to terminal madness and then come back out of it.  I dont think a single book could have done this AND the last battle together.

[John Everyman]

I do find the notion that a chapter entitled "The Last Battle" that features a long foreshadowed apocalyptic battle is considered "sword and army porn*" more than a little ridiculous.  That said, I am interested in military tactics, to the point where I wouldn't have minded a somewhat closer look at Mat's battle plan... but of course, neither Brandon Sanderson nor Robert Jordan were military geniuses, so it might have been better to leave it to the imagination. 

 

*Don't ever read the Malazan series. 

 

But I'm about passed out from fatigue, so I'll have to pick this conversation back up later.

[jjstraka34]

 

Of course, you also have him veering in the exact opposite direction, with Crossroads of Twilight being the obvious offender.  Some of the other books of the series, such as A Crown of Swords and The Path of Daggers, also suffer from some fairly serious structural issues.  

 

I've always been under the impression that "Path of Daggers" and "Winter's Heart" were meant to be one book. It simply was taking too long and became too bloated. It's obvious from multiple scenes in the "Path of Daggers" prologue and the way the book had no climax. The same can be said to a lesser extent about "Crossroads of Twillight" (which is essentially "Winter's Heart" from different perspectives, and the oddest and most problematic installment Jordan wrote) and "Knife of Dreams". "A Crown of Swords" gets a bad wrap because it is the first time the narrative, time-wise, is so condensed, but in hindsight, it holds up almost as well as books 1-6.

[Suttree]

RJ was a combat veteran who served in Vietnam. Certainly he has the cred and was very good at writing military scenes. The Damona Campaign is some of the best writing in the entire series.

 

@jj

 

It works well when you read them like that.

[Mr. Micawber]

See, I believe firmly that Rand's internal struggle is as much a part of the last battle as anything in this book. And consequently it needed to be put on its own merits front and center. So I feel like two more books would have been needed at a minimum. I don't want to be pedantic, but is anyone here actually familiar with the concept of Jihad from Islamic theology and philosophy? Most non Muslims know about Jihad in its lesser, external sense, connected to physical expansion of the Umma. However, the greater Jihad is actually something that happens on an individual level, it's about mastering one's sinful ways and fully submitting to Allah. Now, it might help if I mention Jihad means literally "struggle" in Arabic, while Islam literally means "submission" (to the one god) and Muslims are "those who submit" (to the one god)