Quality Discussion Thread

[Aver]

 

 

Oh man, I truly grimaced when I read the back-and-forth exchange between Mat and Rand when they first meet up in Ebu Dar. They were trying to one up each other and it was so poorly written and contrived. Ugh.

 

ya that was bad.  real bad.

 

i learned to just gloss over stuff like that though.  what is really disappointing to me is the sloppiness and apparent casualness of how some major plots are "wrapped up".  the series has ended now, and we still dont know why the DO wanted to turn Rand rather than kill him.  it seems like there is no reason whatsoever.  there also seems to be no reason as to why they didnt just flat out kill Rand.  this is all just horribly sloppy writing and whether or not it was addressed in the notes doesnt matter - it could have been wrapped up by BS.

They hadn't seen each other since, wow, umm Lord of Chaos I think? How is the meeting supposed to go without having pages of dialogue with a Mat who doesn't really like disclosure. I enjoyed it.

 

@RandMatPerrin

 

I agree, Taim should have been killed in the Tower Coup, but you are underestimating the effects of the various Forsaken

 

1) Graendal effectively destroyed almost 1/3 of the Lights initial armies, sure the trollocs did most of the work, but the great Captains were making serious errors that cost the Light major manpower. Then she killed a bunch of the channelers guarding Rand's back.

 

Well, I can't remember what Mogy did at the moment.

 

Taim's Dreadlors did a lot of damage, he's probably just behind Demandred and Graendal for effectiveness in the campaign.

I completely disagree with your take on Rand and Mats reunion. It was so out of character for both of them.

 

Here I'll give you a couple of examples for Mat.

 

 

Mat saving Aludra from the illuminators guild

Mat saving the super girls in Tear

Mat killing Couladin and saving the cairhien and Tairen soldiers

Mat battling the Gholam in Ebou Dar and saving Elayne

Mat freeing the windfinders from the Seanchan, capturing Tuon, and smuggling the Aes Sedai out of Ebou Dar

 

Mat's character always hopes to avoid a battle but when confronted with people around him being hurt he does not hesitate to throw himself into the line of fire in order to save them. I think that Mr. Sanderson for the most part stayed true to that aspect but Mat never brags about what he has done. In all of those examples above when does Mat ever brag about what he did? When Mat does something that is brave in the eyes of others he is self deprecating about it, he thinks bravery is foolish. When Mat kills Couladin he thinks about how close he came to dying not about the glory or honor that it brought him. Mat doesn't want glory he'll leave that to Rand. Marrying the empress of Seanchan? That is something he has been dreading since the shadow rising and now he is bragging about it come on. One of the reasons Mat is such a great character is because he always regards all his heroic acts as foolish.

 

The dialogue felt like cheap gratification to me. They should have played more into how each other had changed, maybe talk about Moraine.

[Viperswhip]

I think a conversation with one of your best friends, no matter what he tells himself about him and Rand goes a little differently than everyone else. Hell, he gets even close to Perrin and he captures a badger.

 

I say things to my friends, jokes mostly, I would never, ever say around anyone else. Wildly inappropriate jokes.

 

I think it was a throw back to the very first time we saw them together, neither of them struck me as being serious, and neither was seeking glory or admiration. It was a very quick way to disclose a lot of information though. Rand may have been doing it a bit for the benefit of Tuon as well.

[Suttree]

Totally out of character and just a terrible scene. Almost expected them to break out a ruler the way it was going.

[Aver]

Totally out of character and just a terrible scene. Almost expected them to break out a ruler the way it was going.

Lol

 

Also  Viperswhip I hated the badger scene too it felt out of character and so anti climatic for two friends that haven't seen each other for so long. Why would Mat sneak up with a badger? He's not in Edmonds Field anymore. 

[pmtang]

You know how everyone says Samwise is the hero of The Lord of the Rings?  I'm starting to wonder if Perrin is not the hero of The Wheel of Time. 

[pmtang]

double post

[esvath]

You know how everyone says Samwise is the hero of The Lord of the Rings?  I'm starting to wonder if Perrin is not the hero of The Wheel of Time. 

 

He is in my eyes... I like Perrin better than Rand, more so after he can rescue Faile, and resolve his "I don't to rule" syndrome. :D

[Sabio]

Really good book, but my complaints for this book are pretty much the same for the other books, some good characters seemed wasted.  Some like Fain just seemed tossed in to tie up some lose ends.  Gwayn seemed to have no purpose and Perrin's wolf dream fighting slayer got old.  I had hoped the dark aiel would of played a bigger part of the book, but at times it seemed like they had almost been forgotten about.

 

I really liked the tamerping with the great generals in their dreams.

[Viperswhip]

Maybe Graendal compulsed Amys, Bair and Melaine to stay out of TAR as well. Their reasoning seemed...silly, their being in TAR was one of the Light's biggest advantages. It's not like they hadn't tangled with a Forsaken before. I know it was so BS didn't have to write a bunch of other TAR scenes in an already crowded book, but let's pretend there was an actual story reason.

[titan]

I'm so disgusted with this book.  I'm 800 pages in and bored to tears.  I loved this series so much, and I've waited 20 years for a conclusion.  The only reason I'm replying to this thread is to take a time out and stop myself from throwing the book in the trash.  I've already skimmed ahead and can't bring myself to care about what happens at this point, even in summary form.  What a terrible waste and disappointment. I'm honestly mad at myself for getting excited about this book.  I think it's one of those situations where I would have been better to not have read it and to have just imagined it being awesome instead.

 

Ugh.

[mike hunt's here]

I thought this is the best place to put this question - did anyone think that the part where moridin stabs himself in the hand and Rand goes "ouch" and drops the sword kinda warner bros bugs bunny three stooge like?

 

 

[MarkDiLillo]

I thought this is the best place to put this question - did anyone think that the part where moridin stabs himself in the hand and Rand goes "ouch" and drops the sword kinda warner bros bugs bunny three stooge like?

 

lol

 

honestly, i felt there were several scenes that were so badly written that i almost laughed out loud, but instead shook my head sadly.  the one that immediately comes to mind is the mat/rand scene.  i was literally just asking the empty room "what the hell are you doing?!?" as if i was talking to sanderson.

[pmtang]

What was wrong with the Mat/Rand scene?  When old friends meet, especially young males, of course they are going to have a pissing contest.

[MarkDiLillo]

What was wrong with the Mat/Rand scene?  When old friends meet, especially young males, of course they are going to have a pissing contest.

 

In 2013, when 20 year olds meet they act like that.

 

WoT isn't set in 2013 on earth.  It's set in an entirely different world.

[pmtang]

But we have seen that young males in that world act surprisingly similar to the ones in our world.  If that is a flaw, then it's one since The Eye of the World.

[Suttree]

But we have seen that young males in that world act surprisingly similar to the ones in our world. If that is a flaw, then it's one since The Eye of the World.

You have got to be joking. That scene was utterly out of character and just terribly done.

[Joanna63]

I enjoyed the Mat/Rand scene, laugh out loud moments which I felt were needed as to me the book was exhausting, a battle rages here, another one there all at a very hectic pace.

[Joanna63]

 

But we have seen that young males in that world act surprisingly similar to the ones in our world. If that is a flaw, then it's one since The Eye of the World.

You have got to be joking. That scene was utterly out of character and just terribly done.

 

Having read back over your other posts about this I have to agree with you that it was out of character, but I still laughed :) I did think that BS pushed Mat's laid back persona a bit too far.

[Joanna63]

 

 

But that's always been my personal peeve with Brandon.  He feels the need to ADD things to the canon.  And typically the tid bits that he adds don't belong in the WoT world and they feel very much off.  Take the use of gateways in aMoL for example.  Was the use of them extremely creative and really neat to see in the story?  Yes, it definitely was.  However, it felt very much unlike the way RJ would have implemented those into the story.  We have thousands of pages of notes and story that clearly define gateways and their usage...WHY did Brandon feel the need to totally redefine their implementation in aMoL?  The whole anti-balefire and Egwene exploding with it really felt the same to me despite how well it was written and how well it worked in the story.

I almost feel that the authors felt that in order to remain relevant the books had to continue to add to the rules of the universe during each book.  The gateways did immediately remind me of BS Mistborn trilogy and their impressive three dimensional battle scenes.  Androl in general I could have done without for the same reasons the gateways were annoying to you.  One couldn't help but feel annoyed at the time wasted on a character who wasn't going to do anything that couldn't have been done by other already developed characters.  Also, the Magma gateway's (demandred's and Androl's) raise serious questions as to why the likes had not been seen before.  On first read 15 years ago I thought envisioned most of the uses gateways eventually were put to use but then dismissed them because their rigid nature would only be possible if there was some unspoken rule or if every person EVER in the Age of Legend was specially inept.

 

 

And Deathgates, which were clearly invented by RJ, didn't "break" the previously established usage of gateways? I thought this new use of gateways, from battlefield observation to unleashing a torrent of lava, felt like a natural development. 

 

Why wouldn't the lava thing work? Is there a single reason why it shouldn't? I've always imagined that being one of the reasons why the weave for Travelling was lost during the Breaking - because it was useless. You didn't know if the gateway would open to a place that was still safe, or if it'd open into a vulcano or an ocean, and thus killing you. 

 

Why weren't these things widely used in the AoL? Most people couldn't create gateways large enough for unleashing large torrents of magma There are perhaps better ways of killing people, unless you happen to be very Talented with gateways. And it was basically the only thing Androl could use as a weapon. Other people could rupture the earth, call down lightning, use balefire, and so on. 

 

I imagine that battlefield observation wasn't used that way because during the AoL there were other means available to observe things from afar. Ter'angreal, for instance. 

 

I don't see it as flawed in any way. 

 

I found the little inconsistencies annoying, though. Like, how could Egwene draw too much of the One Power while channeling through an ordinary sa'angreal? That's not supposed to be possible.

 

 

I agree, I liked Androl and Pevara's roles, thought they were great and came up with really creative ideas that added to the story. I agree that the new uses for the gateways could be thought of as a reflection of ongoing evolution of knowledge and Androl's talent. I cant understand why people didnt develop more creative ways of using the power like Androl did (it's the Last Battle for goodness sake!), why werent the 'death wheels' employed to fight the trollocs, why didnt they didnt use circles more, and why didnt Elayne make more medallions to protect people during the attack? It was frustrating.

[Joanna63]

 

A major problem with these books is Brandons clear lack of planning and foresight.  I get the sense that he is not very big on outlines and meticulous planning.  He seems to prefer to envision a scene and write about it immediately with his "flow" guiding him. 

He actually has annotations for all his books, so you can learn a lot about his writing process. He plans everything out (he has hundreds of pages of notes on The Stormlight Archive), but he also likes throwing in a few new things as he writes and is willing to break from his careful plans when he finds something that feels more "right".

 

Brandon's style of writing is amazing, but the differences that Wheel of Time has from Mistborn and The Way of Kings make it harder to write.

 

Also, Brandon is working off of Jordan's plans, not his own.

 

Have to say that I love BS's other books too. I started reading them due to him taking over the WoT writing and am hooked. Warbreaker, Mistborn, Elantris and The Way of Kings are all really great books, I cant wait for the second instalment to The Way of Kings.  It must be incredibly difficult to take over a series written and developed by another author.

[pmtang]

Brandon Sanderson is actually an extensive outliner where as Sanderson himself called Robert Jordan a discovery writer (from his recent interview at goodreads).  Though how Jordan can be considered a discovery writer despite all his foreshadowing is beyond me.

 

 

With such a weapon like the Mask of Mirros, I am surprised that not more was done with it.  Anyone could approach another with the face and voice of Rand and tell whoever to do as they wished.  "Hey borderlanders, I need you to attack Tar Valon for me".

 

Why was Elayne's armies making gateways to the Erinin and then constructing bridges do cross with the plans to destroy the bridge afterward?  Why not just make the gateways to the other side when they got there?

[Suttree]

Brandon Sanderson is actually an extensive outliner where as Sanderson himself called Robert Jordan a discovery writer (from his recent interview at goodreads).

Would love to see a quote on that if you have it. Sanderson is known for his style of "slapping words" down on the page and rushing through first drafts. The end result is a beyond rough first pass and then leaving a ton of work for the editors as opposed to Jordan greatly refining things before anyone ever saw it. They actually changed Brandon's writing process for AMoL in an attempt to add more polish and avoid the huge amount I mistakes in ToM.

[pmtang]

Here is the link to the interview: http://www.goodreads.com/interviews/show/836.Brandon_Sanderson

 

 

Goodreads: Endings can often be the hardest part of a book to get right.

 

Sanderson: ...........Robert Jordan wrote by instinct. He was what we called a discovery writer, so what was handed to me was a big pile of half-finished scenes or paragraphs where he wrote, "Well, I am either going to do this, this, or this. I was thinking of this, but it could be this." Yes, cracking an ending is hard, and the Wheel of Time had a lot of loose threads. My job was to take all those threads and weave them into an ending, which was a real challenge.

[Gatewayinyourhead]

First I have to say I am a big Brandon Sanderson fan. I love his other works, however I am a much bigger Robert Jordan fan, the different feel of the prose and characters is obvious in all of the books, and it is no different in the last one, I can tell it is written by a different author, but then again Brandon said he would not try to copy Robert Jordan's style. ( if he would have tried I think he could have, the guy knows how to write other styles, and all these people complaining about his prose like he doesn't know it is different then the rest of the books is just silly. He could have quite effectively chosen to effect the same prose. It was a conscious decision not to. One I disagree with... anyway....

 

(So) here is the thing that gets me, Brandon is a great lover of creating magic systems, he has written some quite interesting essays on what makes magic systems good and what works. I recommend them to anyone. But if you have followed Brandon's career you know that he has always looked at softer magic systems as inferior, in his interviews he tries hard to act like all magic systems have their merit. If you take his class that he teaches at BYU you would know of his bias against what he calls soft magic systems. Unfortunately I felt his disdain for soft magic systems in his writing of this book. I feel that it really came through with Androl, it was like he was saying, see? if you don't clearly define the rules here's what you can do, it's so overpowered and he slaps you in the face with it with all the new ways he uses Gateways(portals) and other weaves in this book, it's like he went and tried to think of all the overpowered ways you could use existing weaves that if discovered earlier would have broken the series and threw them in after playing the video game portals.

 

Then having Egwene discovering a new weave and naming it the corniest of possible names made me laugh out loud, that was a jab of Brandon to soft magic systems. 

[Suttree]

Thanks Pm. The link is broken though. Does the interview talk about Brandon's outlines?

 

As an aside we actually know Harriet did the outline for AMoL.