Lets talk about lightning

[Will al Seen]

This is something that's always kind of itched at the back of mind. Whenever an Aes Sedai makes lightning, RJ desribes it as coming down from a cloudless sky. But wouldn't they have to actually create a storm for the conditions for lightning to happen?, like use the weaves of air and water i guess it would be to make storm clouds thus creating the lightning? Anywho i can't quite figure it out so if anyone can clear that one up for me that would be super

[HotW Moiraine]

Yea, and they have to create a match and something to strike it on to make a fireball :P

[Thor]

They do need something in the air to help them make the lightning but maybe just not cloud.

 

Elayne was trying to make a cloud in the drought but she couldn't because there was not enough moisture.

 

You need some factors.

[Treeofcalm]

But wouldn't they have to actually create a storm for the conditions for lightning to happen?' date=' like use the weaves of air and water i guess it would be to make storm clouds thus creating the lightning?[/quote']

There are two very different forces at work here. Lightning that comes from nature must have the preexisting thundercloud and subsequent charges in the earth that allow a NATURAL lightning strike to occur.

 

The inherent nature of magic is that it alters reality. In the case of, say, evoking lightning from nowhere, magic allows us to create lightning without the standard set of natural conditions. Furthermore, we must realize that the magical lightning looks like natural lightning to the nonmagical eye. However, to a caster of a certain gender (in already said case, a female) this lightning would not look like natural lightning; the lightning would look like a weave of air and water threads.

 

Hope that makes sense :D

[Trib4l]

Lightning requires ionization of the atmosphere. I've always assumed that the weave they used to create lightning simulated that ionization that occurs naturally in a thunderstorm in such a way that causes the lightning to occur.

 

My assumption would be that if we'd be able to see an example of what the weave looks like that we'd see parts of the weave in the sky as well as touching the area on the ground near the intended target.

[chemteach1977]

The lightning itself must be normal lightning and not some sort of weave. We know this because Mat's medallion did not protect him from Rahvin's lightning. It did stop Hamila's channelling though. Lightning is an indirect effect of channeling. Like throwing a rock at someone with the power.

 

Lightning is nothing more than a big discharge of static electricity. The weave would basically have to strip a whole bunch of electrons off of air molecules and pile them together until enough built up to jump down to the ground. All of the weaves would be up in the sky, the lightning bolt would not look different even to a channeler.

[Trib4l]

Except lightning is an electrical reaction that meets in the middle. If you've ever seen hi-res pictures of lightning you'll see the streamers coming up off of trees and buildings towards the sky.

 

Lightning striking is an effect of the weave. That doesn't mean that Mat's medallion would stop the weave from forming - it only stops direct channeling. If the lightning weave forms around his location, it would only melt if it directly touched him.

 

Assuming that the lightning is real, and is an effect of the weave, it's pretty safe to say that it would not only be in the sky since that's not how lightning works naturally or when created in a lab. It requires an electrical path established by oppositely charged particles attracting each other in the air.

 

If the weave didn't touch the ground there would be nowhere for the lightning to strike since there would be no path for the electrical charge to follow - not to mention that without some method of targeting the weave, i.e. ground contact, the lightning strikes would be random and useless.

[Treeofcalm]

Except lightning is an electrical reaction that meets in the middle. If you've ever seen hi-res pictures of lightning you'll see the streamers coming up off of trees and buildings towards the sky.

This is true' date=' but we must remember: The charges meet in the middle, but the power of the charge travels downward...so the net movement of the charges is 0, but the movement of the power focuses at the lower point of contact. This is why trees get split, and so on. The voltage in the air allows two electrical charges to meet at the closest physical point possible; the amperage of the charge travels from the cloud area to the ground through the stricken object, which is the damaging effect of lightning.

 

Lightning striking is an effect of the weave. That doesn't mean that Mat's medallion would stop the weave from forming - it only stops direct channeling. If the lightning weave forms around his location, it would only melt if it directly touched him.

 

Assuming that the lightning is real, and is an effect of the weave, it's pretty safe to say that it would not only be in the sky since that's not how lightning works naturally or when created in a lab. It requires an electrical path established by oppositely charged particles attracting each other in the air.

This is where we must separate our ideas: There are two possibilities of what lightning fundamentally is when conjured from the Power.

 

One: The magic of the weaves create real lightning and simply modify the conditions of its travel; in this case, from an arbitrary point in the sky to the person targeted by the caster. The magic modifies nature to create these effects without the natural prerequisites of a cloud, and so on.

 

Two: The lightning made by the magic of the weaves is not exactly true electricity. The magic lightning is magic only, and it replicates the exact effects of lightning. To the non-caster's eye, it looks like normal lightning. In all functionality, it is just as damaging as normal lightning, or more if the caster is strong.

 

In either case, I think the reason that lightining is still created from the sky is that is the safest way to strike something with lightning. If we think about it in terms of lightning being a (more or less) straight line, the best way to prevent friendly fire is to go from above and hit downwards. :D

[Magicana]

Stop applying real life physics of lightning to something created by the power. It is of course going to be different.

 

From all descriptions it is most likely that the right answer is the second suggestion by Treeofcalm.

[SBoydW]

Although... didn't rand release some horizontal lighting...?

[Physics is fun]

dashiva used lightning in illian but i dont remember if there was clouds

[chemteach1977]

But if the lightning is "magic only" i would think Mat's medallion would stop it. To aim lightning maybe you also create a positive charge under your target. Build up enough potential difference and the air ionizes to carry the charge.

[Treeofcalm]

Actually, both of my descriptions of lightning are equally valid. They both exist in the WOT.

 

For natural lightning: In TFoH, chapter 34, Aviendh and Elayne use magic to make real thundercoulds form. Once these thunderclouds form, Aviendha and Elayne can use the magic to cause the clouds to naturally discharge lightning and hit the targets they designate. Remember, it is always more efficient to use less magic to do the same thing. In this case, there was already a storm brewing, and so Aviendha and Elayne make the storm greater. They simply maintain the weave that makes the storm progress, and then they can use that same weave to direct natural lightning strikes at the targets of their choosing.

This is the same type of lightning that Rahvin uses to kill Mat in chapter 54 of TFoH: he uses magic to create stormclouds, and then he uses magic to direct the lightning, but the lightning itself not made out of magic: it is made of electricity. So Mat's foxhead medallion never failed him.

 

Magical lightning. There are a lot of instances of this, but there is only one I remember one right now. In chapter 33 of KoD, the Windfinders call lightning from a blue sky. Because there is no natural setting that will allow the creation of true lightning, the lightning must be made completely of magic.

[rd2000]

When Rand tried to bring the little girl back to life in Tear. He channelled lightning throughout the fortress and killed all the shadowspawn. Inside a building, thru halls, etc.

[Treeofcalm]

When Rand tried to bring the little girl back to life in Tear. He channelled lightning throughout the fortress and killed all the shadowspawn. Inside a building' date=' thru halls, etc.[/quote']

So in the above case, the lightning would be all magical :D

[Guest cwestervelt]

Stop applying real life physics of lightning to something created by the power. It is of course going to be different.

 

From all descriptions it is most likely that the right answer is the second suggestion by Treeofcalm.

 

Actually' date=' real life physics are relevant to a discussion of power wrought lightning. Particularly as the way in which lightning works is pertinant to Mat's lack of resistance to it. Additionally, understanding how lightning occurs naturally provides a basis for theorizing how Aes Sedai could create lightning using the One Power.

 

Except lightning is an electrical reaction that meets in the middle. If you've ever seen hi-res pictures of lightning you'll see the streamers coming up off of trees and buildings towards the sky.

 

Yes and no. The visual discharge captured in those pictures, is the end result. If my understanding of lightning is correct, rather than meeting in the middle, the visual discharge of electicity originates in the middle. Well, nearer the ground than the middle, but that isn't really important. The initial stages of the lighting, those that would correspond to an Aes Sedai's weaving, begin in the clouds and move downwards.

 

NASA has an article concerning lightning on the web at http://thunder.msfc.nasa.gov/primer/. On the second page, they describe the process of a lightning strike.

[Thor]

Some people are very mistaken.

 

The Power is physical, not magical, get that straight.

[Treeofcalm]

The Power is physical' date=' not magical, get that straight.[/quote']

I will agree that the Power draws from a caster's physical strength. However, the stronger the caster is, the less physical strength is demanded for the same casting of a spell. Take Moiraine, for example: she was not nearly as strong as, say, Nynaeve. If we remember from the first book, she was exhausted from making a large firewall. Nynaeve can channel the same flows with less physical demand.

 

~Edited here~ :oops: Thor, you are right On that note, the Power itself is magic, not a physical force, but the spells affect the physical world.

[Thor]

Fireball is fire, how is that magic?

It's not like you are creating the fire out of nothing, the energy was already there for the fire to start.

 

Compulsion affects the mind, which is also physical.

[Treeofcalm]

Fireball is fire' date=' how is that magic?

It's not like you are creating the fire out of nothing, the energy was already there for the fire tostart.

 

Compulsion affects the mind, which is also physical.[/quote']

You are absolutely correct with the Compulsion bit, and I agree that a fireball is made of fire. However, I disagree with with something you said. We kind of are making physical something out of nothing physical.

 

The way I see it is this: the existence of the fireball comes into reality through the weaving of magic, which permeates the physical world, but is not an inherent part of the physical world. The magical logic is thus:

The scientific definition of the progression of what we label as time is quite simply the progression of Entropy. Robert Jordan says that time is woven by the Wheel, which is powered by the One Power. So time permeates reality and the physical world, but it is also separate from it.

 

The effect of weaving a fireball with magic is fire, and the effects of using a compulsion weave affects the physical mind.

 

How do we know, however, that a fireball is only true, physical fire? If a fireball is only made of real fire, why does an explosion radiate from the area of impact much like a grenade blast?

 

Thor, do you agree with any of this?

[Thor]

Come to think of it, what is physics, what is magic?

 

I mean physics was defined as the study of natural phenomenon. That basically just includes everything.

 

Really fluffy to say what is magic or physical.

 

As for the fireball, if you have a flamethrower, you will also see that the flame divert/splash when it hits the target. That's just conservation of momentum.

[Luckers]

Magical lightning. There are a lot of instances of this, but there is only one I remember one right now. In chapter 33 of KoD, the Windfinders call lightning from a blue sky. Because there is no natural setting that will allow the creation of true lightning, the lightning must be made completely of magic

 

I'm sorry... but what? Lightning is an electrical discharge. All it requires is that some source lends electrons enough energy to leave their medium and leap to an opposite charge.

 

Electrical discharges of this sort are not just limited to lightning. In this instance the catalyst is simply the one power, which is exciting the electrons into movement. I mean hell, the same effect can be created by shining a light of signigicant intensity on an annode, or moving a metal through a magnetic field.

 

I'm sorry... but your rant on 'magic' strikes me as absurd. Yes there is an external element in this series that does not exist in our world, but RJ is a physicist, and the creation of the external source is bound by the laws of physics... its consistant throughout the series.

 

As for the difference between the so called physical and magic... Electromagnetic phenomena are no less physical for their lack of mass. Quanta contain both particals and wave phenomena... or rather, are both at the same time. Partical packets of electromagenetic energy.

 

So no, quite frankly, clouds arn't needed for lightning to form. Clouds can cause the electrical discharge that we call lightning, but so can light, or friction between other masses, or half a hundred other things. It makes sense, therefore, in a world where the One Power exists, that it too can instigate an electrical discharge of this sort, and since it breaks none of the laws of physics it needs no special 'magical' clause to exist.

[Treeofcalm]

I'm sorry... but what? Lightning is an electrical discharge. All it requires is that some source lends electrons enough energy to leave their medium and leap to an opposite charge.

 

So no' date=' quite frankly, clouds arn't needed for lightning to form. Clouds can cause the electrical discharge that we call lightning, but so can light, or friction between other masses, or half a hundred other things. It makes sense, therefore, in a world where the One Power exists, that it too can instigate an electrical discharge of this sort, and since it breaks none of the laws of physics it needs no special 'magical' clause to exist.[/quote']

I agree with this. I can't argue against it and still call myself sensible :D

 

Gratz! You have my respect. ~bows~