A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

[merlinspetrock]

I really hated theI keep in mind that he is the kings son and the only one of his actual children that we meet' date=' so maybe he is the Prince?[/quote']

 

That's not true. Mya Stone, the mule girl who takes people up and down the mountain to the Eeyrie is also one of Robert's bastards.

 

And dont forget about Edric Storm, Roberts son that Stannis was going to give to the flames.

[Dias]

IfI'm not mistaken, one side of the Hound's face is hideously burned. Instant giveaway. I don't remember reading anything like that when they went to the Quiet Isle. I think the head priest being Rhaegar is more likely than him being the Hound.

[Daenya]

Here is a tip to reading Martin. Don't believe everything you read as the truth. The Hound is not dead. For confirmation check out the guy on the Quiet Isle who is petting "Dog" and pay close attention to what the head priest says about his own turn to the faith and the death of the Hound to Brienne.

 

As I always say - they're not dead until you see the body, and then it really should be burnt, just to make sure.

[Mightelove]

I'm hoping beyond hope that Sandor Clegane isn't dead. He is, by far, my favorite character.

 

He shows the most potential for change and improvement.

 

By the priest saying that The Hound is dead, I think it was a way for him to sidestep the truth. The Hound is dead whether or not Sandor Clegane is dead.

[merlinspetrock]

I'm hoping beyond hope that Sandor Clegane isn't dead. He is' date=' by far, my favorite character.

 

He shows the most potential for change and improvement.

 

[b']By the priest saying that The Hound is dead, I think it was a way for him to sidestep the truth[/b]. The Hound is dead whether or not Sandor Clegane is dead.

 

Exactly. The Hound is dead, Sandor Clegane is alive.

[Asgard Thorin]

I don't think Brienne is dead. I think somehow, that word she shouted at the end will save her life. And I don't think the Onion Knight isdead. Remember Bran and his younger brother? It was veryeasy to miss the slight reference of Theon Greyjoy referring to them not being dead why back when, and GRRM writes everything from the perspective of the characters, so all the narration is suspect: it's not the narrator, it's the mind of the character of that chapter. PWWP? I can see that being Dany, but I'm thinkin' Bran. His quest(dare I say quest?) is definitely going to be an arduous journey, but it will be integral to the story, something so important that his uncle who was lost in the Blight(hah-hah) came back from the dead for it(I think Coldhands is his uncle) I actually think Bran will end up marrying Dany

[Taishadar]

Favorite Charecters: The Hound (he isnt dead whatever all you haters say), Barristan the Bold, Jaime and Strong Belwas.

 

Most Hated: Cersei, she was always a total bitch, but now we find out on top of that she is a complete incompotent ass.

 

The Prince who was Promised: Seriously I cant believe this is still being debated. Although Ill give GRRM some credit the speech Aemon gave about it being Daenrys was almost convincing. It's Jon Snow. JON SNOW I say! Must I bludegon you all with my hardcover copy of a Storm of Swords for you to see reason! Also think on this Daenrys cant have anymore kids. So if she returns and wins back her throne there will just be another civil war to see who suceeds her unless their is another living Targaryn to take the throne.

 

On a further note I think people are way too hasty to view charecters as being dead. Its true Martin hasnt been shy about killing off main charecters. However when he does so he doesnt beat around the bush. We didnt have some fat priest tell us Ned Stark was dead months after it supposedly happened. No he got his head cut off in front of a crowd of thousands. His son was last seen getting a sword rammed into his heart pretty conclusive I would say. Tywin, Joffery, Renly, Lysa no ambiguity over any of their deaths. By being willing to kill charecters he makes it possible to not kill them. Most people assume that the main charecters never die in books cause they usually dont. By killing off a few charecters GRRM has done the exact opposite in his readers. We assume that someone is killed and are thus set up for the suprise of finding out they arent. My 2 cents.

[Asgard Thorin]

MrGrrim has made it very plain that he no compunction about creating a scape-main character, one to fool the reader into thinking he is the main character. He has done it twice: Rob, Ned. I don't think he can pull it off again; if he did his readership would riot, burning all his books; all his readers that I know were extremely vexed over the Red Wedding(Damnation to the Freys!) and I think Mr Grim knows this. Therefore I beleieve Brienne is alive; he invested too much effort in her to have her dead; she has not returned on the investment. I am sorry, Kadere, I have to disagree: none of the characters she killed had enough importance to merit a fifth or more of the book just to have her die. And we know the righteous can die: that was part of the purpose of Ned and Robb. And my next argument is entirely logicless and therefore infallible :) Brienne can't be dead because he described to us how her face was maimed!

Seriously, I think that all the characters who were maimed while the story was at there POV are the main characters; Mr. Grim hasn't killed any of the mains from there own POV.....the one guy killed at the end of ASOS had the purpose of showing that Catelyn was still alive, if being a hate-wight can be called life. I submit that Brienne must have had more purpose....killing off minor villains that no one could remember(or less than half the readership, anyway) or for that matter care much about and then be hanged, just to remind us that good folks can die? No, I don't think that is a sufficent investment.

Hey! That reminds me of something. Did anyone else note that none of the places Brienne went to could not be found on the map? And many other places as well?

[Kadere]

First off Breinne was never that main a character. She didn't even have a point of veiw until the fourth book. She never did anything important in either ACoK or ASoS. He doesn't really spend all that much time building her character then he did building any of the other characters. Basically she's worthless. She's not Jon, Sansa, Arya, Dany, or Jamie. She's expendable. Her story arc makes sense being killed by Catelyn, it's bittersweet. There's nothing for her to do, she's not going to marry Jamie and she's not going to save Sansa. That's not the story GRRM is writing. When I went to the book signing of AFfC I even asked GRRM if he even HAD a main character since he seemed to kill them all off left and right, and he said, "Oh, that's for me to know and you to find out. Just know that there are many more people to die." Frankley I think his readers should get pissed if she's alive. The reason these books are good is their unexpectablity when it comes to death. These books say that everyone can die because in life everyone CAN die.

 

In the end there's no reason to keep her alive, she was never that useful or important.

[Asgard Thorin]

Thanks, knew I'd left something out of my last post. Not yet she isn't, but she was anointed i.e, maimed while we were in her POV. We know of no reason why she might still need to be alive but Mr. Grrim does. And there was no reason to kill her, not after spending so much time on her. As I said earlier, we don't need anymore reminders of how brutal this world is. If he did that just to have her hanged-well, it could only be filler, aka bad writing, and I doubt Mr. Grrim would do that. Anger the readership if he didn't kill her? I don't see it, but you could be right on that one. Bittersweet? No. Pointless and enflaming if you are right: I would have waited two years for a book that was mostly nothing.

[Kadere]

The book is ment to be filler to skip through the five years he was going to skip anyway. He didn't even want to write this one, he just had to.

[Kalak]

My favorite characters are:

 

POV's: Arya,Bran,Jaime,Jon.

Non POV's: Jaqen H'gar,The Hound, Little finger.

Most hated: Cersi: she's just a bitchy slut,and the red priest that hang's around Stanis: I don't know y I hate her I just do

[Guest Karana Majin]

Hey! That reminds me of something. Did anyone else note that none of the places Brienne went to could not be found on the map? And many other places as well?

 

I noticed that too! I was constantly flipping to the front trying to find those places on the map, especially the Whispers! I wonder what it means?

[Asgard Thorin]

"Hey! That reminds me of something. Did anyone else note that none of the places Brienne went to could not be found on the map? And many other places as well?"

Sorry about the double negative.

 

Anyway, my question is where in Davy Crockett's sweat stained buckins(I love that line from the Angry Beavers) did the idea come from that Jon is a bastard Targaryen? Or scion of a secret marriage? That hit me out of nowhere. I can see Mr. Grrim doing that but it hit me out of nowhere. (My apologies if the word bastard is offensive; since this is a very coarse series which uses that term for children born out of wedlock, which is how I am using it, I thought it would be discussion-appropriate, moderator) If that's the case, that is if those're Jon's origins, it's something that I didn't twigg to at all. What references brought this theory? I don't know if I could find all my copies, and since this series is very easy to become lost in, at least for me, finding them would be a challenge. Finding the references, that is. BuckSKins. I meant buckskins.

[Guest Majsju]

Well, there are no flat-out hint. But a few things...

 

Jon is described as looking very much like Lyanna, who was abducted by Rhaegar, and died in a manner that sounds very much like childbirth. And there's that promise Ned made to Lyanna...

 

Then there are the lying about Jon's mother, Catelyn says that Ashara Dayne is his mother, Ned says that it's Wyalla. So at least one of them is lying, but both might be. If Jon is Rhaegar's son, Ned couldn't possibly tell Robert, because Robert would kill him on sight. Ned is described as being very honourable, including never telling a lie, but we did see him tell a lie in order to save lives. He could very well have lied once before, about Jon's real parents, in order to save Jon's life.

[merlinspetrock]

Eddard also never refers to Jon as his son. He calls him his blood, but never has he called him his son to anyone.

 

The story that the two frog kids tells to Bran about the tournament at harrenhal also sets up some of the back story between Rhaegar and Lyanna. He crowns her the queen of beauty and light or something and presents her with the crown of blue roses which are her favorites. It was shortly after this tournament that he abducted (or she ran off with him).

 

If youre really interested check the links on his main page. One of those sites lists a bunch of theories and the supporting evidence. They even list the book pages so you can look them up. There is quite a bit of evidence. Also dont feel bad, I totally missed it too.

[Kalak]

heres a small question involving the end of A feast for crows

 

in the end a charcter introduces himself as "Pate like the pig boy" but he was killed by Jaqen in the prolog, so did Jaqen steal Pates face? is that an ability of a faceless man?

[Asgard Thorin]

Someone killed him for his face, a shape shifter, who needed an identity, probably to infiltrate the maesters. But was it Jaqen? Possibly, but it doesn't seem to fit for some reason. Jaqen seemed to be more an angel of death than an infiltrator. Assuming it to be Jaqen might be a mistake, though of course I don't know of a certainty.

Whoever it is, they/she/he/it needed an identity for espionage/sabotage whatever. And whoever either killed Pate or possessed him to gain that identity. Majsju, how do you pronounce that name?

[ShadowEternal]

*thanx gods that other people read this series* :D:D:D:D:D

 

I've only read the first 3 (and luved them!)

 

 

Till now, my favourite character was Arya, along with Jon Snow and Bran. The reason i really luv this book above many other is the whole concept of good NOT triumphing over Evil everytime. We see Robb Stark become well known as someone who has never lost a major battle. and then we see him visciously killed by his own so-called allies. Our feelings for each character also change as we get to know them better. At first impression, i DID NOT like Sansa. The girl who does what she is told nd acts like a ''proper-lady''. I began to hate her when i read the fate of Ned Stark. Now of course, Cersie dominants that list. Tyrion is now among my favourite charcters. The scenes betwwen Shagga son of Dolf and Tyrion are hilarious!! (the whole manhood and goats etc.:P) I found it easy to relate to him as i could with all the charcters.Bran who as a cripple yearns for the freedom from earthly bonds to ''fly''.

 

I actualyy felt bad that charcters we rooted for in the beggning were deimcated to the last. Winterfell burnt, Ned killed, Catelyn Stark living as a monstrous figure she has been ressurected as. Robb Stark (i actually was hoping that the Young Wolf would have lived :( )

 

It also seems that with the return of the dragons, magic is rising in the air once more. We hear of the kraken that was attacking fleets on the coast. of the finding of the Honr of Winter and of the appearence of Coldhands. (i honestly thought that brave sam after suffering so many hardships, would end up dead. did'nt expect to see him again after that chapter.)

 

Is'nt Jon Snow the son of Wylda? the women who was a wet nurse to Edric Dayne?. I cant really make sense of this. Ned Stark was in love with Ashara of Starfall. So how was Wylda jon's mother?

 

I assume that answers have been given in book 4 even though many of the good POV's are apparently missing. can someone tell me what happens in it?.....i'm not bothered about spoilers.

[DragonSpawn]

Majsju' date=' how [i']do[/i] you pronounce that name?

 

 

Just pretend you have to sneeze and you got the pronounciation 8)

[Kalak]

Someone killed him for his face' date=' a shape shifter, who needed an identity, probably to infiltrate the maesters. But was it Jaqen? Possibly, but it doesn't seem to fit for some reason. Jaqen seemed to be more an angel of death than an infiltrator. Assuming it to be Jaqen [i']might[/i] be a mistake, though of course I don't know of a certainty.

Whoever it is, they/she/he/it needed an identity for espionage/sabotage whatever. And whoever either killed Pate or possessed him to gain that identity. Majsju, how do you pronounce that name?

 

yes it was Jaqen they Pate discribed his EXACT face from A clash of kings the new face not the old 1

[Asgard Thorin]

Sneeze? Sneeze! That works! :D

 

I don't remember the description of Jacque-n, whatever his name is. It just doesn't seem to fit him, in mine opinion. As I said, or meant to say, I could be wrong. Whoever he was, though, he assumed Pate's identity. I have no idea why, but that is what he/she/it wanted/needed.

[Kalak]

Jaqens discripion in book 2...

Hooked nose

scar on his right cheek

a cap of tight black curls

 

 

Alchmists discription...

a scar showed faintly on his right cheek

he had a hooked nose

and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly

 

see exactly the same

[Guest Majsju]

Majsju' date=' how [i']do[/i] you pronounce that name?

 

 

Just pretend you have to sneeze and you got the pronounciation 8)

 

Well, at least you should be able to pronounce it, unlike english, the sounds exist in German.

 

Maj as in -ei, and sju kinda like the -ch sound in words like Buch.

 

Cool, my German practise is starting to make itself noticed :D

[Asgard Thorin]

So Majsju, sort a like "Mike" or would it be closer to "Make"? Though I am Scandinavian by heritage, I know almost nothing of Scandinavian language or culture. One of the disadvantages of being an American descended from Europe is that you are far more likely to have lost all or almost all of your cultural heritage-with some very notable exceptions, such as Irish or Scottish. Don't get me wrong, I love my country-I even joined the army nearly two decades ago-but I wish I knew more of other languages. All I really know of Scandinavian culture are the jokes American Scandinavians tell to each other: "You know, you can always tell a Swede-but you can't tell him much." "What's the fastest way to make a Swede and a Norwegian fight side-by-side?" "Put them in Denmark." "If you have a Swede, a Dane, and a Norwegian, how long does it take them to change a lightbulb?" "Only God knows; by the time they're done arguing, it's daylight." I have a few others, but I think that's probably enough. I fear only American Scandinavians will fully appreciate them, though I hope you do, Majsju. (..."i" before "e" except after "c"?....)