A Song of Fire & Ice Book Discussion Thread (Up To Dance With Dragons)

[Red2111]

it's not like a trashy romance novel if thats what your asking lol. the sex scenes aren't really that graphic imo. really the graphicness of the scenes comes more fromt eh implications the writers leaves rather than the actual writing.

 

 

as far as how much they occur ... it's certaintly not every chapter. off the top of my head, i can only really remember 5 or 6 sex scene in all 4 books. there are some scenes in the books which as sexually vivid, like Viserys twisting Danny's nipple as he tells her "i'd let an entire army have their way with you if it got me my throne back" as well as mentions of rape in the background; but nothing really descriptive like what you'd get in a smutt novella.

[Feral]

it's not like a trashy romance novel if thats what your asking lol. the sex scenes aren't really that graphic imo. really the graphicness of the scenes comes more fromt eh implications the writers leaves rather than the actual writing.

 

 

as far as how much they occur ... it's certaintly not every chapter. off the top of my head, i can only really remember 5 or 6 sex scene in all 4 books. there are some scenes in the books which as sexually vivid, like Viserys twisting Danny's nipple as he tells her "i'd let an entire army have their way with you if it got me my throne back" as well as mentions of rape in the background; but nothing really descriptive like what you'd get in a smutt novella.

 

Oh ok thanks very much for that. Will have to find a copy somewhere...

[Red2111]

np, just be warned that it's taken the author 6 years and a tv show contract for the series to push out the 5th book; and there 2 left to go its good to be warned about these things

[alligator]

Feral,

 

The sex isn't always explicit, but my main issue with the series has been, and continues to be, the graphic and continuous descriptions of rape. Doesn't seem to bother other people as much as it did me, but be warned!

[Elend]

The prologue didn't take fifteen minutes. It took about 7 (prologue ended in the death of the PoV character). The first chapter was the second half of the preview, though they cut that off before the finding of the direwolves.

[Red2111]

it's been about a year since i read GoT's. i thought the prolouge included the desserter being beheaded ... my bad

 

 

alligator - theres a difference for me between mentioning that rape happened and an actual discription of it happening. right now, in the books we have no actually phsyical discription of a rape happening; other than with Danny when she rescues the one chick. and even then it's not really descriptive as say a smutt scene in a trashy romance novel. it's just enough to let you know whats happening and is in the background, not the forground.

 

i'm not saying that rape is fine; just that some people seem to think because the mention of it is included in the series at all, that it must be one of the more major focuses or plot points. which it isnt. fact is, that GRRM includes rape as a tactic for domination that some of the characters use, makes his writing feel that much more real; because in war's and society, unfourtunatly that is one of the tools that is used to conquor & dominate a land. as disgusting as it is, thats part of real life.

 

 

just because we recomend the series, doesn't mean the issue of rape doesn't bother some of us. but it doesn't take away from the fact that it is a good story, with good and clearly defined characters, and great plot twists.

 

 

[Feral]

Oh I don't mind sex and rape getting mentioned or even vaguely described. It's when it is described in detail that it annoys me, or done for thrills. It's pointless and it just throws me out of the story.

[SingleMort]

I can't recall any sex and rape being mentioned in any particularly graphic detail. I mean you see people having sex but GRRM doesn't spend too much time decribing the different positions. It is more graphic than WoT though.

 

But in my opinion A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the trully great book series (along with WoT) that has ever been written, ever.

[alligator]

Oh, I wasn't trying to say that I think it's a bad series. I definitely enjoyed it and recommend it. But personally, Martin used sexual violence more extensively than I liked. It just bothers me to read about it; I understand it's part of his 'gritty, realistic' vibe, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed the inclusion.

[Basel Gill]

I've been considering starting this series, but I'm a bit unnerved by what I'm reading about the use of rape in the story. One big question I have is, are there any parts where the reader is expected to forgive, or even root for, the characters who commit these rapes? That was a huge, enormous problem for me with the Thomas Covenant series, in that the central character, the alleged hero of the series, was a rapist. I finished the first Covenant book and have yet to begin book two, and I'm not sure I ever will, due to that moral issue. Depiction of rape, or other violence against women, doesn't disturb me, but the author wanting me to believe those doing the raping are anything other than bad guys does.

[Elend]

You'd need to read the books to be sure, to be frank. Tyrion is the main example that may or may not fit your bill, depending upon several factors.

[SingleMort]

I've been considering starting this series, but I'm a bit unnerved by what I'm reading about the use of rape in the story. One big question I have is, are there any parts where the reader is expected to forgive, or even root for, the characters who commit these rapes? That was a huge, enormous problem for me with the Thomas Covenant series, in that the central character, the alleged hero of the series, was a rapist. I finished the first Covenant book and have yet to begin book two, and I'm not sure I ever will, due to that moral issue. Depiction of rape, or other violence against women, doesn't disturb me, but the author wanting me to believe those doing the raping are anything other than bad guys does.

 

Don't worry you don't have to "root" for any rapists. I don't think anyone in the book who does that is very sympathetic (at least that we know of). I would hate that too, I fact that what destroyed the Liveship Trader books for me becuase my favourite character turned into a rapist at the end of the last book. I have now vowed to never read another one of Robin Hobb's books ever again.

 

But one of the good things about ASOIAF is it's "grey" characters, who aren't evil are not entirely good ethier. I think that some WoT chracters do that as well. I also quite like the way that GRRM can take a chracter and show them as some evil villain, then show them in a different light and make you feel sympathy for them. Though I'm pretty sure he doesn't do that with any rapists. I think the rapists in these books are usually the scum of the universe and die quite bloody (well there may be one or two lurking around still but that's probably only so they can die later on.)

[Basel Gill]

OK, thanks for the info. I suppose when I finish off Fires of Heaven I'll switch series for a bit and start on AGoT. I was thinking of doing a First Time Reading thread to go along with.

[Anoxanmore]

Oh, I wasn't trying to say that I think it's a bad series. I definitely enjoyed it and recommend it. But personally, Martin used sexual violence more extensively than I liked. It just bothers me to read about it; I understand it's part of his 'gritty, realistic' vibe, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed the inclusion.

Totally agree with you on the bolded part. Reminds of the Richard... *shudder*

[JenniferL]

OK, thanks for the info. I suppose when I finish off Fires of Heaven I'll switch series for a bit and start on AGoT. I was thinking of doing a First Time Reading thread to go along with.

 

Leigh Butler is doing a first time read on Tor.com. She's about six chapters in, I think.

[Basel Gill]

OK, thanks for the info. I suppose when I finish off Fires of Heaven I'll switch series for a bit and start on AGoT. I was thinking of doing a First Time Reading thread to go along with.

 

Leigh Butler is doing a first time read on Tor.com. She's about six chapters in, I think.

 

I might check that out sometime, but I won't do so immediately. Not just to avoid spoilers, but because if I post a First Read, I don't want my reflections on the book to be influenced by what she has to say. I'd rather have my reactions be my own, so that anything I have to say will be originating from within me.

[Red2111]

I've been considering starting this series, but I'm a bit unnerved by what I'm reading about the use of rape in the story. One big question I have is, are there any parts where the reader is expected to forgive, or even root for, the characters who commit these rapes? That was a huge, enormous problem for me with the Thomas Covenant series, in that the central character, the alleged hero of the series, was a rapist. I finished the first Covenant book and have yet to begin book two, and I'm not sure I ever will, due to that moral issue. Depiction of rape, or other violence against women, doesn't disturb me, but the author wanting me to believe those doing the raping are anything other than bad guys does.

 

 

yeah Mort has it right. any of the characters you end up rootign for aren't the ones doing the rape; and the ones that do that are minor characters end up getting what they diserve in a very satisfying karma type of way *nods*

 

 

atleast so far in the series; you honestly never know what twist or turn this author will take or how the characters will end up turning out. i knwo of two characters i've reversed my original opinion on and tbh it's unthinkable you'd like the one and hate the other when starting the series. i wont list them, cause it will spoil it a bit for you; but their names are in the spooiler box.

 

 

Jamie. i hated him at first, but i'm rooting for him now.

 

Cat. i kinda liked her, well atleast sympathized with her at first; now i detest her tbh.

 

[balefired-ed2]

Regarding the whole rape thing, there is one character in the series that has committed rape that it seems we are supposed to empathize with. I wont spoil it any more than that.

[Red2111]

i'm thinking hard and i cant rememebr which character your talking about. can you either use the spoiler tag and post who it is or just PM me the name of who your tlaking about. now my curiosity is peaked and i'm too buisy re-reading WoT to do a re-read of ASoF&I at the same time

 

 

[Kadere]

Red2111,

 

 

 

I think they're referring to Tyrion being forced by Tywin to rape his wife after she's raped by all the guards. That's the only thing I can think of.

 

 

[balefired-ed2]

Red2111,

 

 

 

I think they're referring to Tyrion being forced by Tywin to rape his wife after she's raped by all the guards. That's the only thing I can think of.

 

 

 

Yup, that is the one.

[Suttree]

Posted this in the entertainment thread too but here is another clip from HBO...

 

 

[Elend]

Red2111,

 

 

 

I think they're referring to Tyrion being forced by Tywin to rape his wife after she's raped by all the guards. That's the only thing I can think of.

 

 

 

Yup, that is the one.

 

The one I was thinking of too.

[Red2111]

hmmm see i see that differently than you guys do

 

 

 

first we have the fact that Jamie paid the chick to sleep with Tyrion in the first place. so technically she was already a concubine; this doesn't mean that she couldn't be raped, even hookers have the right to deny a John; it just proves that before the gang rape occured, she had aggreed to have sex with Tyrion for money. so with Tyrion atleast, there is a presedent set for Sex for Money.

 

then there are the events surrounding this issue, which is that Tyrion had perviously had consenual sex with the woman on numerous times and theres no reason to think that it would be any thing other than consenual this last time.

 

also, you have to take into account that he was forced to do it. can we really consider Tyrion the Rapist when he was forced himself, surrounded by his fathers gaurds with no means of escaping the situation. can he really be held accountable for that act, when he woudn't have done so on his own, feels ashamed of having been forced to do so, and took no joy in the act.

 

imo, this would be like hating a boy who was forced by an adult to have sex with a girl when neither the boy nor girl wanted to. in this case the Adult is blamed, not the two children; and no one had any sympathy for Tyrion's father and he did die a painful death.

 

 

[balefired-ed2]

hmmm see i see that differently than you guys do

 

 

 

first we have the fact that Jamie paid the chick to sleep with Tyrion in the first place. so technically she was already a concubine; this doesn't mean that she couldn't be raped, even hookers have the right to deny a John; it just proves that before the gang rape occured, she had aggreed to have sex with Tyrion for money. so with Tyrion atleast, there is a presedent set for Sex for Money.

 

then there are the events surrounding this issue, which is that Tyrion had perviously had consenual sex with the woman on numerous times and theres no reason to think that it would be any thing other than consenual this last time.

 

also, you have to take into account that he was forced to do it. can we really consider Tyrion the Rapist when he was forced himself, surrounded by his fathers gaurds with no means of escaping the situation. can he really be held accountable for that act, when he woudn't have done so on his own, feels ashamed of having been forced to do so, and took no joy in the act.

 

imo, this would be like hating a boy who was forced by an adult to have sex with a girl when neither the boy nor girl wanted to. in this case the Adult is blamed, not the two children; and no one had any sympathy for Tyrion's father and he did die a painful death.

 

 

 

I dont have the books in front of me but. . . Edit: proof and link in spoiler

 

Doesnt Jaime make it clear that the girl was NOT a whore? I thought that this was one of the main reasons why Tyrion ends up killing Tywin when Tywin says she was just a whore. This is also a point in Jaimes developing character, his guilt at having lied to his brother for all these years. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tyrion_Lannister