Travelling, residues, and inverting weaves

[salvierda]

So on my most recent read through i have begun wondering about a particular aspect of the way the source works and its implications into the plot. It is fairly significant that the rebel Aes Sedai try to keep the weave for gateways from the seanchen and from those in white tower so much so that after using bowl of winds elayne risks unweaving a gateway, and rescuing Egwene from the tower is deemed as an awful idea because someone might be able to read the residues and learn the weave. my thoughts then went to how residues work, can they only be read after the weave is completed or has been collapsed? or can they also read active weaves such as wards or illusion (invisibility changing appearance)? basically i wanted to understand why they could not just invert the weave for travelling and use it as normal? i mean if an inverted weave can hide the ability to channel and the residue remain undetected could it not work on the gateways? i am however willing to admit that there may be a flaw in the way i am perceiving the way weaves, inversion and residue detection, if so i do hope someone can help me right my incorrect worldview. what are your thoughts as to all this?

[clutzyninja]

I would think that if you know the weave is there, you can undo the inversion to see the original weave?

[jedman67]

I don't know if its possible to invert a gateway, or if elayne just didn't think about it, or they didn't want to give away inverting either

[Cybertrolloc]

Dem says he reverses gateways, but he might be lying to himself too :)

 

There's mixed thoughts on what's going on besides not every character knows everything. Such as Cads thinking seeing a completed weave is a lot different from seeing one made (this is when they travel to Far Madding), vs that never stopping the 2Riversers.

 

This is also setting aside how the OP works changes a great deal over the series (even more so than most of the mains being channelers who are just learning this stuff). But you can find author words on lots of these individual questions in interviews, blogs, etc...

[Pokeriser]

Even if they inverted the weave, you can't tie off a gateway, as eventually it collapses. As far as we know, inversion doesn't work on residues, so the Seanchan could still have read the residue of the weave.

 

 

 

This is also setting aside how the OP works changes a great deal over the series (even more so than most of the mains being channelers who are just learning this stuff). But you can find author words on lots of these individual questions in interviews, blogs, etc...

 

Off-topic, but one thing that always bugged me a bit was how different the One Power operated from the first book to how it operated in the rest of the series. Try as I might, I can't equate the golden tendrils and all the rest that are described in the first book by Rand with anything he describes later in the series. Also, I always thought that Robert Jordan's handwaving of that invisibility ward that Moiraine used ("It was all a novice trick!") was pretty lazy, especially as it doesn't even ripple when someone moves behind it like it's supposed to.

[jedman67]

Even if they inverted the weave, you can't tie off a gateway, as eventually it collapses. As far as we know, inversion doesn't work on residues, so the Seanchan could still have read the residue of the weave.

 

 

 

This is also setting aside how the OP works changes a great deal over the series (even more so than most of the mains being channelers who are just learning this stuff). But you can find author words on lots of these individual questions in interviews, blogs, etc...

 

Off-topic, but one thing that always bugged me a bit was how different the One Power operated from the first book to how it operated in the rest of the series. Try as I might, I can't equate the golden tendrils and all the rest that are described in the first book by Rand with anything he describes later in the series. Also, I always thought that Robert Jordan's handwaving of that invisibility ward that Moiraine used ("It was all a novice trick!") was pretty lazy, especially as it doesn't even ripple when someone moves behind it like it's supposed to.

Rand Tied off the gateway he made when he led the saldean army to take over illian. And from that section, we know rand can read residues.

 

As for the invisibility thing, i dont recall moiraine calling it a novice trick (the eavesdropping was) she explained it to be 'simple bending of light'; and it was "fastened" to the floor, not to any individual.

It won't ripple, because the "surface" of the illusion is not disturbed by someone moving behind it; however, with elaynes invisibility terangreal, since the invisibility is fastened to an object or person that's in motion, the weaves can "shake" causing the ripples.

 

Theoretically, someone can make an invisibility weave over themselves, invert the weaves, and prance around naked with no telltale ripples; providing the weaves are fastened very closely to the persons skin. (Which may be how Alanna escaped from Tear in ToM, if she inverted her illusion and placed it over her suitcases).

[Pokeriser]

 

Even if they inverted the weave, you can't tie off a gateway, as eventually it collapses. As far as we know, inversion doesn't work on residues, so the Seanchan could still have read the residue of the weave.

 

 

 

This is also setting aside how the OP works changes a great deal over the series (even more so than most of the mains being channelers who are just learning this stuff). But you can find author words on lots of these individual questions in interviews, blogs, etc...

 

Off-topic, but one thing that always bugged me a bit was how different the One Power operated from the first book to how it operated in the rest of the series. Try as I might, I can't equate the golden tendrils and all the rest that are described in the first book by Rand with anything he describes later in the series. Also, I always thought that Robert Jordan's handwaving of that invisibility ward that Moiraine used ("It was all a novice trick!") was pretty lazy, especially as it doesn't even ripple when someone moves behind it like it's supposed to.

Rand Tied off the gateway he made when he led the saldean army to take over illian. And from that section, we know rand can read residues.

 

As for the invisibility thing, i dont recall moiraine calling it a novice trick (the eavesdropping was) she explained it to be 'simple bending of light'; and it was "fastened" to the floor, not to any individual.

It won't ripple, because the "surface" of the illusion is not disturbed by someone moving behind it; however, with elaynes invisibility terangreal, since the invisibility is fastened to an object or person that's in motion, the weaves can "shake" causing the ripples.

 

Theoretically, someone can make an invisibility weave over themselves, invert the weaves, and prance around naked with no telltale ripples; providing the weaves are fastened very closely to the persons skin. (Which may be how Alanna escaped from Tear in ToM, if she inverted her illusion and placed it over her suitcases).

 

 

Later in the series, Egwene teaches the Aes Sedia the invisibility trick, and muses about having seen Moiraine use a similar trick, concluding she must have learned it as a novice (or later, but never shown it to any Aes Sedai, is what I mean). Maybe I'm misremembering.

 

And yes, Rand ties off the gateway when invading Illian, but it's not permanent. A tied off gateway eventually collapses - see Sammael and the "travelling boxes" in Path of Daggers. Graendal notes that he "must have held the gateway open rather than just tied it off" when he lets Sevanna's group through.

[jedman67]

Any weave that's tied off can eventually collapse depending on how tight or loose its tied. we see plenty of examples over the series; as well as weaves that are tied off and meant to last forever. I have seen no indication that properly done, any weave - including gateways - will not last forever or until untied.

[Suttree]

About tied off gateways:

 

 

Interview: Nov 21st, 2011

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Lord Juss (Paraphrased)

LordJuss

Why did Grady and Neald stop tying off gateways?

Brandon Sanderson

They found that it didn’t work as well as they originally thought. Tied-off gateways behaved in strange ways; they were inefficient, ineffective, and unpredictable. There was also a considerable continuing cost to maintaining even a tied-off gateway. I can’t remember exactly when the change happened, but I think it was Jordan who made it. You can armchair this and see that he had to create a reason why they didn’t just tie off gateways all the time. If they could do that, then they would just have gateways everywhere and that would be that. So, he had to have an in-book reason to explain an out-of-book issue.

[jedman67]

I personally take that quote with a grain of salt, being that my impression from the books is otherwise. RJ did handwave some stuff over the series tho.

[Cybertrolloc]

It was a change made after KoD. I think there's something in one of the RJ blog entries here.

[Graendals favourite]

I think that would be queer, I never knew RJ changed anything, and I was certainly around those years. I thought changing things were like legends, looking closely, something that never happened. He said something similar, but not that.

[Graendals favourite]

Simply put, RJ never changed anything. I would have known then of any interview he gave otherwise. He did not. The rest is as canon as possible with him gone, I believe.

[Graendals favourite]

And CT; it was Graendal as I said, I've debated with you on it enough.

 

(It certainly wasn't Lanfear, but then it wasn't anyone else either)

[Graendals favourite]

As to the mechanics, as the OP asked, I think I can answer this. When one channels, weaves flows that are completed give the desired effect, if successful of course. Anyone of the same gender can see/feel what another is weaving, and also a weave they've completed that is maintained. In the White Tower it is taught, that a weave must be let go of thereafter, when complete, what anyone could see will quickly dissipate. In fact, to learn a weave, it is often not enough to see acomplete weaving, but one must see how it is woven. No doubt this is the same for men, though they more feel it.

 

A residue lingers after a weave has dissipated, so that somo soon seeing where a weave was made could know what it was. It must be obviously assumed that those rare individuals, alike Rand and Aviendha, could also see how a weave still maintained was made. I guess, like someone seeing a carpet could know how it was woven (this must be an easier skill, and much more people must be able to do it), but Rand and Aviendha can look at the residues of a carpet unwoven, and definitely guess how it was done in the first place.

 

Inverting is doing something to a maintained weave, so that no one can see it. It cannot even be sensed. Apparently Nynaeve was able to see beyond Moghedien's inverted Mirror of Mists of the cuendillar seal in Tanchico. Moghedien had woven it, then inverted it, then knotted it.

 

Reversing is channelling a weave so that it cannot be seen, though it can still be sensed, by ter'angreal at least, or by a channeller of the same gender: they cannot see/feel the flows, but they know something is channelled. It is of course much slower to channel this way, to weave but weave to hide it at the same time.

 

 

Was there something else, I forget now, will look back tomorrow. Reversing is found much later than inverting, but is in a way less usefull. Did Demandred not speak of his reversed Gateway rather than Inverted, would make more sense to me?

[jedman67]

reversing is inverting while weaving, instead of after weaving, IIRC.

[Graendals favourite]

Yes, though an even complicated flow, as that of Leane's cuendillar making weave, can be made, inverted, then used later, and is not at least easily detectable. Anyone can detect a someone weaves something reversed, only don't know what. Ah, now I'm wondering whethere there was an inverted Gateway, brought closer to Caemlyn somewhere, or I dreamt it.

 

Though, just revealing to the Tower that the rebels could Travel would be giving info.